Inkwell: Authors and Artists
Topic 105: Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #26 of 318: windblown (satyr) Sat 24 Feb 01 16:38
permalink #26 of 318: windblown (satyr) Sat 24 Feb 01 16:38
> Worldwide capacity to date is 17,000 MW, generating some 34 billion > kilowatt hours I'm guessing that's 34 billion kilowatt hours _per_day_ (Still smarting from recent media mangling of energy-related units of measure...) Within the last week, NPR ran a report on the large scale development of wind power in west Texas, by Florida Light and Power. This seems hopeful. Globally, what are some of the prime locales for wind power, either in sheer potential or potential in proximity to a market and infrastructure? I'd be surprised if southern Chile and Argentina and New Zealand weren't near the top of the list.
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #27 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Sat 24 Feb 01 16:46
permalink #27 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Sat 24 Feb 01 16:46
While we're waiting for Peter to return from the bar, let me jump in here. Enron Wind is of course huge in the industry, but the various Florida Power & Light subsidiaries are developing new projects at an equal level. SeaWest also has substantial new developments, as do others. In fact, FPL is currently in construction using another Enron subsidiary's turbines, the Tacke 1.5 MW machine. Tacke is a German manufacturer, and i believe the first phase of construction is 130 MWs. The project is in West Texas, so of course these are the largest commercial turbines ever installed in the U.S.
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #28 of 318: windblown (satyr) Sat 24 Feb 01 18:50
permalink #28 of 318: windblown (satyr) Sat 24 Feb 01 18:50
Another question...what's been driving the trend towards larger and larger windplants? I assume it's economics, but why are the larger ones more cost-effective than more smaller ones?
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #29 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Sat 24 Feb 01 20:33
permalink #29 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Sat 24 Feb 01 20:33
Howdy folks. While I did have a beer, I was not at the bar. I was at a Friends of The River event about -- energy deregulation! And they wanted to hear info (being most concerned, of course, about hydro issues). It was an interesting scene. Bob Schlichting (sp) from the California Energy Commission basically told everyone what a great job they were doing. The hottest points of the debate were the proposed purchase of the transmission grid from the utilities and how Davis is expanding the role our state government is performing as a power purchaser. Implications for public power and distributed small solar and wind systems may be the topic for a forthcoming op-ed. But to the questions. Enron. Well, these guys have been painted the bad guys because of their links to Bush and because they are playing some manipulation games with natural gas supplies. I remeber writing a story for Windpower Monthly, the leading international wind power magazine, when Enron bought Zond. Windpower Monthly has always hated Zond because they were so uncooperative as a company in terms of being candid with the press. The gist of the story was whether this purchase was good or bad for the industry. Up until that point, most purchases of wind companies by big oil, gas or military industrial complex companies ended up being bummers for everybody. I know Jim Dehlsen well. A section cut out of the book was that his nickname was "No Deal Dehlsen." I talked to a video prpducer who worked with him. I tried to write a book with him, too. Very hard man to work with. A visionary, yes. A business manager, no. But I have to say I've been pleasantly surprised. The fact that Enron bought out all of the original stock holders speaks about how they must think wind is part of the future. I'm amazed at how many folks, ranging from groups representing appliance contractors to the very power generators reaming we consumers (and the hated utilities) in the process, are talking renewable energy. This power crisis could be the best damn thing to happen to this country. HELLO. WAKE UP. Its time to end our fossil fuel addiction. It is time to invest BIG TIME in renewables and begin the transition to the hydrogen economy. Enron will make billions in natural gas and oil. But they are no dummies. They are a lot smarter than PG&E, SCE and SDG&E. Enron has also invested in solar. British Petroleum is now Beyond Petroleum. THat is worth a snicker, but this is the sing of the times. Do I trust them? Hell no. But the fact that free market Republicans from Texas see a winner in wind should tell Davis and the rest of the California Legislature something.
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #30 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Sat 24 Feb 01 20:44
permalink #30 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Sat 24 Feb 01 20:44
Wow -- that last one was a long one. There are many parts of the world that have great wind. Ironically enough, California ranks right in the middle of the US states. Germany doesn't have great winds -- less than many states here. YEt they lead the world. Why? Public policies. Argentina and CHile have incredible winds. The winds they are called "Zonda," by the way. THe UK has excellent wind resources. But NIMBY problems there are far worse than the US. Why? Public Guardian, a front group for the nuclear industry. Windblown dude. Why big better than small. Randy can give a better answer than I, but here is the context. In the beginning, the feds built huge monster turbines. All of them were failures. They were designed by out-of-work aerospace engineers, folks froma culture that were not used to designing things that had to work in market setting. Boeing, General Electric -- companies that had made millions doing work for the Defense Department. Anyways, none of them worked. In fact, they were such a fiasco that California decided to take a different approach. Plant dozens of smaller wind turbines in farms and gradually scale up in size as one learns how to address the intense stress wind places on machines sited in spots that are blessed with the wildest weather on the planet! To make a long story short, today's turbines are the same size as the monster machines orginally put in the ground by the Department of Energy. We've learned enough about gust structures and turbulence and long-term wear-and-tear to design machines as large as 1.5 to 3 MW! The size of the original US Windpower turbines planted in the Altamont Pass -- 50 kW. But small wind turbines in the 10 kW size are also extremely economical for on-site applications. The only distributed generation source that is cheaper is mini-hydro. Large and small distributed generation turbines are the answer. Did you know the state will pay half of the installation costs of a small wind turbine?
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #31 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Sat 24 Feb 01 21:24
permalink #31 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Sat 24 Feb 01 21:24
First, yes, 34 Billion! kwhs per year. i dexterously boggled my magnitudes, dude, thanks for catching me. Turbines get larger and larger according to perceived economies of scale. But loads and stresses increase as well. At some point moving huge blades or using huge cranes become prohibitive. The ideal has not been reached, and may differ depending on the installation site. We may be lucky later in the week to have a turbine designer or two pitch in. i'll only say there are theoretical analyses which show arrays of smaller turbines may be less costly and more efficient, particularly in areas with strong wind shear, where the windspeed increases with height. Or perhaps if you were using the ocean for your yaw bearing. But in general the economies produced by scaling up to the current 750 kW to 1500 kW are thought by most in the industry to have been a wise design direction. How much larger remains to be seen. Current plans in Europe contemplate 5 MW scale, or greater than a rotating football field.
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #32 of 318: Call me Fishmeal (pk) Sat 24 Feb 01 22:55
permalink #32 of 318: Call me Fishmeal (pk) Sat 24 Feb 01 22:55
Part of it is a Reynolds number thing. Air is relatively less sticky when it's moving over faster/bigger objects, so things like airfoils work better. Then there's the obvious r-squared relationship between size and area. Double size, and available power goes up by a factor of four. Of course, bending moment on the tower base goes up by a factor of eight (twice as high times four times the force) so there's a limit to how big these things can grow. The higher turbine is also going to be up in stronger wind, and available power varies by speed cubed (kinetic energy per mass of air is V-squared, but amount of air flowing through the device is V, so you get V-cubed). But wind shear is a problem, and I imagine that when the wind is much stronger at the top of the blades' arc than at the bottom, things done work so well. I'm guessing it's the vertically stable marine air that drives the arguments for offshore. It's also why I'd like to investigate long piers and causeways as a much cheaper way to get into that same stable air.
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #33 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Sun 25 Feb 01 10:46
permalink #33 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Sun 25 Feb 01 10:46
You obviously have a grasp of the basics, fishmeal, but i'm a bit hesitant to discuss reynolds numbers before a web audience. For discussions like this, it's always tough to balance engineering with keeping people happy whose eyes glaze over at the mere mention of microstrain and the family joules, a great band. But of course readers could imagine that with a seventy meter rotor (that's the circular area swept by the blades which capture the wind, in this case some 2/3 the length of the left field line at the Giants new ballyard at McCovey Cove) and the wind at a particular moment is 50% stronger or more near the top of the arc than the bottom, there are unequal forces which must be taken into account. Imagine building a reverse helicopter that's bolted to a tower. In Europe there are existing offshore windpower projects built in the shallow depths of the coastal North Sea, and plans for several hundred megawatts in depths up to forty meters, all built on the seabed. Floating wind ships are a different concept we'll discuss later.
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #34 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Sun 25 Feb 01 10:59
permalink #34 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Sun 25 Feb 01 10:59
For a brief respite from engineering, here's something a writer friend sent me, apparently from SNL's Weekend News: Stunning weekend developments. PG&E has thrown in the white towel. The transmission system will be donated to a non-profit established by Bay Guardian publisher Bruce Bruggman. Gas from the Arizona-Cali border will be piped directly to the Capitol, with the pipeline facilites donated to the INS. The Diablo Canyon reactor vessel will be donated to Bin Laden, and PG&E will turn the containment vessel into an IMAX multi-plex. Enron bought the remains of all three utilities. CEO Ken Lay stated, "We knew the California utility executives needed to spend a few years in the Permian Basin to understand cowboy energy business, for it's been more than a hundred years since any of them ever used small arms to take over a hydro plant." Governor Davis at his bi-annual press conference announced that Cauliflornia will install several state of the art power plants to burn exceptionally cheap depleted uranium shell casings donated by NATO forces in Kosovo. The Republican minority in the Legislature announced it is investigating new sources of power, focusing on the seemingly inexhaustible supply of glow sticks at late night raves. They further denied any investigation into burning Condoleeza Rice straw for power, despite thick smoke hanging over the Central Valley. Edison Chairman John Bryson announced he's replacing the mercury vapor lights illuminating his tennis court with standard flourescents, saying "We can't find glow sticks anywhere, but we will conserve. I continue to use green balls." Senator John Burton, apparently unaware of today's developments, announced he was bringing in XFL executives to mediate the utility disputes. "No fucking fair catches, period," he denied categorically.
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #35 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Sun 25 Feb 01 11:06
permalink #35 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Sun 25 Feb 01 11:06
Well, I hope everyone had a good time at church this morning. I think this technical discussion about the nature of the wind is very important -- but I want to focus more on the human drama behind wind power, which is the focus of my book. What drew me to the wind power story were people like Randy Tinkerman. People like Bob Thomas, who had a mysterious dream about a red star. Sam Francis, a famous painter whose old art studio in Pt. Reyes Station now serves as a writer's retreat, gave him a million or so, and he came up with a wind turbine design. Very unorthodox vertical axis turbine. I ended up staying at Mr. Francis' place -- now called The Mesa Refuge -- and encountered the ghost of Sam Francis. I'm sure it had something do do with my wind book. Then there is John Eckland, the CIA dude who did the forecasts showing that oil prices might reach $100 barrel. He quit his job to start up a wind power company in the Altamont Pass. His firm ended up being one of the biggest embarrassments of all. Then there was Hutter, the Nazi, whose pioneering work on gliders was incorproated into some of the world's first light-weight wind turbines after WW II. He died a few years ago and is a hero in Germany, now the world's leader in wind power. The US equivalent to Hutter was William Heronemus, a former US nuclear navy designer who first spoke about the needs for massive wind farms way back in the '70s. He even spoke about fuel cells and many of the technologies that could help California get out of this current wind power mess. Heronemus hasn't received a dime in federal research money since 1980. It was the students of his class at U-Mass that formed the core of the American wind power industry. That is why I dedicated my book to him. Why are there so many crooks in the power business? HAs any other industry brought together such idealists and such cut-throat capitalists?
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #36 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Sun 25 Feb 01 11:08
permalink #36 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Sun 25 Feb 01 11:08
Where is renewable raver Phred? Is he too busy trying to make a bundle off of the Bonneville Power Administration's huge solicitation for new wind power? Phred? PHRED!!!! Were you up all night????
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #37 of 318: windblown (satyr) Sun 25 Feb 01 11:15
permalink #37 of 318: windblown (satyr) Sun 25 Feb 01 11:15
> Windpower Monthly <http://www.wpm.co.nz/> (Now THAT figures!) ^^ <18> Worldwide capacity to date is 17,000 MW, generating some 34 billion kilowatt hours <31> First, yes, 34 Billion! kwhs per year. Not per day, of course! I was the one who let the magnitudes slip. Thanks for supplying the time scale. (For any who might not have followed that, 17,000 MW = 17,000,000 kW and 17,000,000 kW X 2,000 hours = 34,000,000,000 kWh.)
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #38 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Sun 25 Feb 01 11:22
permalink #38 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Sun 25 Feb 01 11:22
That is an awful lot of electricity. To put those numbers in perspective, consider that California in the late '80s had roughly 1,600 MW on line, which represented about 95 percent of the world's wind power. Today, California gets about the same amount of its electricity from the wind. But that number only represents about 10 percent of the world's wind power. What does that say about leadership, deregulation and progress? For those of you pre-occupied by Napster, the Internet, the New Economy. Does anyone see parallels between what is going on with the evolution of the electricity industry and telecomm?
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #39 of 318: windblown (satyr) Sun 25 Feb 01 11:36
permalink #39 of 318: windblown (satyr) Sun 25 Feb 01 11:36
> Heronemus hasn't received a dime in federal research money since 1980. > It was the students of his class at U-Mass that formed the core of the > American wind power industry. I attended the Social Ecology Summer Program at Goddard College (VT) in 1976, and there was a course on wind power offerred. I imagine there's a connection.
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #40 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Sun 25 Feb 01 11:44
permalink #40 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Sun 25 Feb 01 11:44
Now we're rolling. First i'll reminisce about that CIA guy, Ecklund. i know in your book i'm quoted saying, that guy belongs in joil, or some such. Truly, i could never figure out if he was just a shyster, if he and his company were merely incompetent, or if he was planted by the CIA to destroy the credibility of the newly emerging wind industry. Our plates were full of trying to keep the rotors attached to the hub while convincing arrogant utility executives and insulated investment bankers that we were for real, and he didn't make it any easier. It's his derelict turbines which still litter Interstate 580 through the Altamont Pass, and which gave us such bad press. Thank gopod for some of the Danish turbines, which showed the world windpower worked, right next door to Ecklund. Bob Thomas' machine seemed at first to be a strong contender for a successful village power design for developing countries, where you could pack in the components on a donkey. But he began to focus on the windplant money, he may have gotten off-center. i still think he has a great design for low cost applications.
inkwell.vue.105
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #41 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Sun 25 Feb 01 11:56
permalink #41 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Sun 25 Feb 01 11:56
One thing about Bob Thomas that bears repeating, when he headed the Cali Energy Commission's wind program, that financial conference he organized was absolutely seminal. He put together a board of advisors, on which i sat, and we schemed to get serious investment bankers to a conference in Palm Springs, naturally, to show off the new industry. The deals that began there created the industry. Oh-oh, memories flooding back here. The showpiece of the conference was the huge vertical axis Alcoa turbine installed on Edison's test site, completed just days before the meeting. i flew in early, and saw Alcoa's Paul Vosburgh holding up the lobby bar, midday. Dropped my luggage, greeted, saw his face, what's up? The machine destroyed itself yesterday. In my entire life i have never seen such grace under pressure as that man's performance for the rest of the conference. He didn't try to hide anything, he was open about the believed causes of the failure, and he didn't hide in his room. amazing. Paul, if you're out there, miss you, sorry about the variable axis jokes. But that conference was the true merger of Governor Brown's vision and Wall Street money.
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #42 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Sun 25 Feb 01 12:04
permalink #42 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Sun 25 Feb 01 12:04
Windblown, do you remember the Towards Tomorrow fairs in Amherst about the same time. A Fran Koster brainchild, if me remember correctly. He was the guy who developed community energy planning during those oil embargo days, quantifying how much money local communities wre shipping to Saudi Arabia. Likened it to having a bucket that needed to be kept full, but had huge holes that were always leaking. He quantified the benefit to the community by keeping the holes plugged. Something about Cali shipping off annual education budgets to Texas each month enters my mind.
inkwell.vue.105
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #43 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Sun 25 Feb 01 12:20
permalink #43 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Sun 25 Feb 01 12:20
That must have been some scene -- when the Alcoa turbine blew up in Palm Springs in '81. I have visuals -- even though I wasn't there. One thing about Wind Harvest. They are one of the few American firms to survive. And I heard as recently as yesterday that they may have some real projects. Everytime I talked to these guys, they were on the verge of falling apart, but then some investor would step in the last moment. The guy to save there ass more than once was Ty Cashman, a Catholic Zen Buddhist Anarchist who dreamt up the idea of tax credits based on the ability of English longbow men to beat French mounted knights. The long bow was developed thanks to a policy of exempting them from taxes. Cashman (nice name, huh?) used this little bit of history to justify tax credits for wind. Cashman sunk over a $100,000 into Wind HArvest in the mid-90s. He lives up on Mt Tam. Maybe we could get him to check in. His new thing is the hydrogen economy. He also like hsi wine.
inkwell.vue.105
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #44 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Sun 25 Feb 01 12:21
permalink #44 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Sun 25 Feb 01 12:21
That must have been some scene -- when the Alcoa turbine blew up in Palm Springs in '81. I have visuals -- even though I wasn't there. One thing about Wind Harvest. They are one of the few American firms to survive. And I heard as recently as yesterday that they may have some real projects. Everytime I talked to these guys, they were on the verge of falling apart, but then some investor would step in the last moment. The guy to save there ass more than once was Ty Cashman, a Catholic Zen Buddhist Anarchist who dreamt up the idea of tax credits based on the ability of English longbow men to beat French mounted knights. The long bow was developed thanks to a policy of exempting them from taxes. Cashman (nice name, huh?) used this little bit of history to justify tax credits for wind. Cashman sunk over a $100,000 into Wind HArvest in the mid-90s. He lives up on Mt Tam. Maybe we could get him to check in. His new thing is the hydrogen economy. He also like hsi wine.
inkwell.vue.105
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #45 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Sun 25 Feb 01 12:22
permalink #45 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Sun 25 Feb 01 12:22
I guess I'm repeating myself. Way too much coffee......
inkwell.vue.105
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #46 of 318: windblown (satyr) Sun 25 Feb 01 12:23
permalink #46 of 318: windblown (satyr) Sun 25 Feb 01 12:23
Yeah. A bunch of us played hooky for a day to go check out the fair in Amherst. Some more than a day, I'm sure. I remember sitting in on a discussion with the fellow who'd sawed through or uncoupled (forget which) the cables holding vertical a weather sampling tower on a proposed nuclear site. Also remember an impressive coop grocery right in the student center at U-Mass!
inkwell.vue.105
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #47 of 318: windblown (satyr) Sun 25 Feb 01 12:23
permalink #47 of 318: windblown (satyr) Sun 25 Feb 01 12:23
slippage
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #48 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Sun 25 Feb 01 12:49
permalink #48 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Sun 25 Feb 01 12:49
i remember that story, what was his name? Though of course it's against my religion to destroy the sacred meteorological towers which are the center of our industry. The ability to quantify the wind resource at a given site, both from a perspective of getting enough data over a long period of time to accurately predict overall windpower, and the art/science of micrositing in complex terrain, is key to the establishment of viable and financeable projects, whether at the scale of hundreds of megawatts, or on the hill above your ranch. Reaping the Wind II will be devoted to the amazing meteorologists who shaped the history of windpower, right Peter? I mean, we all know how easy it is to predict the wind.
inkwell.vue.105
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #49 of 318: Call me Fishmeal (pk) Sun 25 Feb 01 13:48
permalink #49 of 318: Call me Fishmeal (pk) Sun 25 Feb 01 13:48
I think it's useful to work out a measure of "capacity" that compares more directly with fossil-fired plants, and to adjust our units to a more appropriate scale. California's total installed generating capacity is what, 55 Gigawatts? Winter demand peak is around 30 or 32 GW, as I understand it. That puts the total worldwide wind capacity of 17 GW in perspective - half of the California winter peak demand. But the annual worldwide wind power production appears to be based on a 2,000 hour year, because most of the time the turbine is operating at something less than rated capacity. There are 8766 hours in a year. So you really have to multiply wind capacity by 0.228 to compare with a power source that operates continuously. Okay, conventional plants don't operate continuously either, so let's call it 0.3 for the comparison factor. (That's being generous, I think, giving conventional plants only 75% up-time.) On this basis, the 17 GW installed worldwide represents only about 5 GW of fossil-fired equivalent. And, the rule-of-thumb that wind costs $1/Watt to install changes to about $3/watt for comparison to fossil-fired first-cost. That's $3 billion per GW, when we start talking on a state-wide scale. (Still might be a good deal, though.)
inkwell.vue.105
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #50 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Sun 25 Feb 01 14:13
permalink #50 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Sun 25 Feb 01 14:13
You raise some good points. Remember, wind power is so dependent upon the wind resource. In California, it is true that wind turbines may only generate power for a third of the year. In the Great Plains, it could get closer to 50 percent in the best wind regions. The thing to remember that increases the valeu of the power produced froma wind turbine is that the power generated -- at least in parts of California -- is during peak, when we need the power the most. Makes a lot mroe sense to based a strategy on solar and wind for peaks, than to spend all of this money on gas plants that might only operate as little as 100 hours in an entire year. YEt that is still the focus. Gas peakers in the 50 MW size. Wind si not the only answer. Other renewables, such as geothermal and biomass, need to play a role because they can pretty much operate around the clock.
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