Inkwell: Authors and Artists
Topic 105: Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #76 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Mon 26 Feb 01 13:21
permalink #76 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Mon 26 Feb 01 13:21
The most difficult part of writing the book was including all of these characters. My editor tried to cut many of them out, but each of the people included I felt were a part of the story. There are already many individuals who derserve to be in a book about the history of wind power, but I tended to include people I talked to directly in my 10 years of going to wind power conferences. Sorry to hear about the confusion. And sorry to hear you hold such a dim view of small wind turbines. Not all of them are loud. Both large and small wind turbines have made great advances in all areas -- including noise. Of course, I would say that solar PV is great stuff to. We need to rely upon all of the renewables... My editor wanted to cut the entire appendix out. I insisted it stay in because of the importance of addressing the bird issue. No other book about wind power spends as much time as this one on birds and the role the issue played in killing new projects in Phred's large backyard, in contributing to the demise of Kenetech. None of the research by the scientists I interviewed on raptors has appeared in other books either. Birds are still a hop topic today. Just check out the Oakland Tribune.
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #77 of 318: Philippe Habib (phabib) Mon 26 Feb 01 13:28
permalink #77 of 318: Philippe Habib (phabib) Mon 26 Feb 01 13:28
I don't blame the book for the confusion, just my own dwindling ability to keep things in my head once they leave my sight. For me, the most interesting thing about the book was following the evolution of the wind turbine. Run, fall down, crawl, walk, run. I'll admit that the only small turbines I've been close to have been a couple that I saw and heard at Burning Man last year. I figured that if I could hear the swish swish swish from 100 yards away in an envirment that noisy, I wouldn't want one within 1/4 mile of my house. I was also curious about the Carters. Is there a web site that showcases their work, or can you say more about them?
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #78 of 318: Call me Fishmeal (pk) Mon 26 Feb 01 13:42
permalink #78 of 318: Call me Fishmeal (pk) Mon 26 Feb 01 13:42
The evolution of the turbine technology is fascinating, but I'm frustrated by the total lack drawings, maps, and photos in the book. Not even a single photo of some of the landmark designs. Any possibility of producing a "webliography" that will give pointers to all that visual background material?
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #79 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Mon 26 Feb 01 14:06
permalink #79 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Mon 26 Feb 01 14:06
The picture thing. Virtually all wind power books realized previous to this one has diagrams and photos. Initially the reason we include photos was because of looming deadlines. Later, it was a more conscious decision. What distinguishes this from all other wind books is that it focuses more on the human drama. It doesn't go into the engineering details because it is really designed for those who have very little knowledge of power engineering. Of course, those in the industry were also envisioned as a prime audience. The story of Kenetech -- the battle between the forces of capitalism and the desire for engineers to ake the perfect machine -- has never been told before. If you want diagrams and pictures, check out Paul Gipe's book: Wind Power Coming of Age.
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #80 of 318: Fuzzy Logic (phred) Mon 26 Feb 01 14:41
permalink #80 of 318: Fuzzy Logic (phred) Mon 26 Feb 01 14:41
It's too bad that the book doesn't include at least a line drawing or two of a typical turbine with appropriate labels so people who aren't sure what a "nacelle" is would not stumble over that. But what I *really* missed here was a photo of Jim Dehlsen's recycled ranch house...!
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #81 of 318: Fuzzy Logic (phred) Mon 26 Feb 01 17:47
permalink #81 of 318: Fuzzy Logic (phred) Mon 26 Feb 01 17:47
Randy sent me a note pointing me to a good interview in the Sunday LA Times with Randy Swisher, executive director of the American Wind Energy Association and another one of the "old hands" in all this. It's quite interesting and his comments about transmission constraints holding back wind development in California are particularly of note: http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/20010224/t000016881.html I also want to put in a plug for Jack Kavanagh's news index, Rough & Tumble, which is a very well maintained list of politically-related news stories mostly from California newspaper web sites. Jack updates the list once or twice daily and it is simply invaluable in following the progress of the energy/resource crisis: http://www.rtumble.com Finally, for those who are reading along here or happened to check in just now, please don't hesitate to jump in and ask questions or make comments. Peter, Randy and I are verbose enough to keep this going, I'm sure :) But the real point is to have you all engage in discussion with Peter concerning his excellent book, Reaping the Wind (Island Press), now available in bookstores IRL and online, and with Randy on his vast experience and real insights into wind energy development. For those who are not Well members and are reading this via our world- accessible link at http://www.well.com/conf/inkwell.vue/ you can forward any questions to inkwell-hosts@well.com or to me personally at phred@well.com As Bartles & Jaymes, the two mythical characters from those mid-1980s wine cooler ads would say, "And thank you for your support!" (They were actually played by two real-live farmers from Deschutes County, Oregon. If we were to update those commercials, they would be putting the finishing touches on their new grape mashing facility, making them the first purveyors of windpower-driven wine coolers in the world... But I digress... )
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #82 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Mon 26 Feb 01 18:44
permalink #82 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Mon 26 Feb 01 18:44
I agree with you that diagrams and pictures would have been helpful. One of the hardest parts of writing the book, believe or not, was describing the different technologies. Here's a funny little story that shows just how weird writing this book was. Like some publishers, Island Press put the copy editing of this book out to bid to freelancers. They ended up hiring an old former Lawrence Livermore Lab editor. It soon became obvious that he was no big fan of wind power. Here we were already a month behind schedule and he tells me he doesn't even type. "My wife does that," he said. I remarked that he must be awfully kind to her. He became a bit defensive. "I do the cooking -- I buy the wine," he said. He was a stickler for technical details -- which was good, because my prime interest was using the compelling drama of the wind power story to spin a yarn that would intrigue folks who never gave much thought to energy. This editor -- who shall remain nameless -- ended up inserting some deep history and did a lot of research that was essentially outside the realm of his prescribed duties. And he kept missing deadline after deadline. Here I was on the verge of physical collapse, eager to finish the book for release a year ago, and this guy didn't even type. After his wife interrupted his copy editing scratches, he would then again review her work. I was busy as hell, setting aside weekends to respond to his comments, and none of the chapters he promised would make it. He did, however, ask me to go into much more detail describing some of the machines. He forced me to be a better writer. Yet in the end, he infuriated my editor. Even I started finding typos. My editor became so enraged when I told him he didn't even type that he then took the document and started editing. This book did take on a life of its own. I developed writing rituals and tools that broke through my first experience with writer's block. So, I was so pissed that the book didn't come out last spring. In my mind, the timing couldn't have been better. Little did I know what would happen in California in the following months.
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #83 of 318: Linda Castellani (castle) Mon 26 Feb 01 20:00
permalink #83 of 318: Linda Castellani (castle) Mon 26 Feb 01 20:00
The timing proved to be excellent!
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #84 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Mon 26 Feb 01 20:06
permalink #84 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Mon 26 Feb 01 20:06
And many thanks for sticking with it, Peter. Those were wildcatter days, and you've captured the flavor well. It's important for society to realize that real people dreaming big dreams and taking inordinate risk is how new technology births. We're supposed to learn from these histories, but... After i've shot my evening doppio macchiato, i may be in better shape to talk about the past few days events in Cali, events which kept me from following the discussion today. But i'll point out that the current crisis seems to be a blessing in disguise, and instant retribution for arrogance of power. Specifically, the transmission constraints which make Edison curtail windpower during a Stage 2 emergency point out extreme blunders caused only by the abuse of power. That the utilities are currently snakebit is their own fault. Guess i should mention that Edison dragged its feet for years upgrading transmission from the Tehachapi wind resource area. Did i mention that Edison prevents existing windpower from entering the grid even when we're near blackout conditions? Then turns around and refuses to pay for what power was delivered, since November. Then demands a bailout? Excuse me, but who wrote the deregulation law that strangled you? And the wind keeps blowing, and the turbines keep whirring, and the industry takes another one on the chin, rolls up its sleeves and goes back to work.
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #85 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Mon 26 Feb 01 20:21
permalink #85 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Mon 26 Feb 01 20:21
Ahhh, that's strong. Cheers Karin, i know you miss these strong Peet's Major Dickenson (product placement) doppios. She's over in Germany, where windpower's paid about ten cents a kilowatt, and the resulting industry is 2.5 times the US capacity. Did i mention that Edison spent millions of your money to prevent 1350 MWs of windpower at 4.5 cents/kWh from being built in the mid-'90's? Projects approved by the CPUC? I'll bet i've mentioned it several times, so it resonates with the electorate. But no sense flogging a dead horse, especially one facing bankruptcy. i wouldn't gloat over a pending bankruptcy, would i Peter? The only action that matters is churning out those renewable kilowatt hours, until the obvious becomes obvious.
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #86 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Mon 26 Feb 01 21:19
permalink #86 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Mon 26 Feb 01 21:19
The good old BRPU -- or the BURP as it was called in some quarters... Both of my Island Press books spend a lot of time on the BRPU, an eight year biennial process to site power plants in California. It wasn't enviros or NIMBY that stopped the only authorized new electricity generation facilities to be built in California during the 1990s -- it was Southern California Edison, a utility I've spent a lot of time beating up on. And for good reason. After eight years and millions of dollars in investment by wind companies desparate to build new wind farms in their native state, Edison, led by John Bryson (who started NRDC and who approved the very first utility power supply contracts in California), petitioned the very FERC which is fercing Davis today to KILL THESE NEW RENEWABLE AND GAS-FIRED POWER PLANTS AT COSTS OF ABOUT 5 CENTS PER Kwh. Independent power producers proved they could building everything cheaper than the utilities. Worse than that, the utilities projected 2,000 MW of energy conservation that they allegedly were in the process of securing while they at the same time were gutting their energy efficiency budgets. Davis today is spending our tax dollars to get that same amount of savings that the utilites promsied state regulators was real stuff that displaced the need for new power plants.
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #87 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Mon 26 Feb 01 21:49
permalink #87 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Mon 26 Feb 01 21:49
California utilities used to trumpet, even in TV ads, all the windpower they were buying under those PURPA mandated contracts. See how renewable we are. Conveniently forgetting that it took a $12 million fine of Edison and a $7 million fine of PG&E to get them to accept those contracts... and then four or five years of wrangling to write the contracts they were mandated to make. And those fines were levied by CPUC President John Bryson. And suddenly He became an Edison executive. Now chairman. Remarkable. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Absolute power in the power markets makes absolute power for sale? And windpower kept chugging along, growing, evolving, firming the technology, no matter what they threw against us. In the words of one of the great wind pioneers, "Ahh, fuck it, I want those strain gauges calibrated NOW!"
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #88 of 318: Fuzzy Logic (phred) Mon 26 Feb 01 23:15
permalink #88 of 318: Fuzzy Logic (phred) Mon 26 Feb 01 23:15
So you guys, after all these kind words toward Southern California Edison (I shall refrain from adding my share only because I've never really BEEN to southern California except for two brief trips to San Diego, which is another utility entirely)... What do you think of their agreement (in principle, fingers crossed or double-crossed) to sell off that very same transmission system to the state, while PG&E edges ever closer to the Cliff of Bankruptcy and the Slough of Litigation?
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #89 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Mon 26 Feb 01 23:36
permalink #89 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Mon 26 Feb 01 23:36
Doesn't matter who owns Cali's grid, as long as the entity has a brain. The free market isn't capable of making the kind of long term decisions necessary to build, operate and adjust the very nature of a power grid. But neither are political fiefdoms which change with the electorate's winds. Ouch, sorry. Actually, as i understand the deal, Cali isn't really buying the transmission, it's a sale leaseback. Meaning we pay, and the utilities operate. And the utilities will use their operational function to continue to ride roughshod over us all. So actually, i believe the State, meaning us, should buy the grid at something less than 2.3X book value, and lease it to the wind industry, for we've shown we know what to do with it. It bothers me that the Governor might think such logic strange.
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #90 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Mon 26 Feb 01 23:39
permalink #90 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Mon 26 Feb 01 23:39
While i might think the logic of shipping $12 billion off to Armadillo Gas Co. a bit strange.
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #91 of 318: Tom Gray (jonl) Tue 27 Feb 01 07:23
permalink #91 of 318: Tom Gray (jonl) Tue 27 Feb 01 07:23
Email from Tom Gray: > So you guys, after all these kind words toward Southern California > Edison (I shall refrain from adding my share only because I've never > really BEEN to southern California except for two brief trips to San > Diego, which is another utility entirely)... Besides the BRPU, one of the other interesting sidelights of Edison and the industry's early days, IMHO, was Edison's attempt to not-too-subtly cold-shoulder the domestic wind turbine manufacturers by setting up a research center in San Gorgonio Pass, then buying only foreign and weirdball machines to test. There were probably a dozen U.S. companies out there manufacturing comparatively legitimate designs, but SCE's center featured a gigantic 3-MW turkey and a "Magnus effect" machine with three cylindrical "blades." Too bad they are no longer there--they would be highly symbolic memorials of one of the great lost opportunities, for a major utility to spend just a little time and effort working with a brand new generation equipment industry and help get some of the problems sorted out. To be fair, that's overly optimistic--I'm sure that some, if not most, of the companies would have found fault if Edison's test reports hadn't suited their commercial needs. But the relationship was an unnecessarily adversarial one from the beginning, and still is today.
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #92 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Tue 27 Feb 01 08:57
permalink #92 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Tue 27 Feb 01 08:57
Since phred's on the road, and this thread's about Peter's book and he's done enough work, i'll jump in as host for a day. The previous post is from Tom Gray, former executive director of the American Wind Energy Association, and currently it's ambassador to the People's Repunblic of Vermont. Thanks for chiming in, Tom, and feel free to let fly. He was posting about Edison's research center near Palm Springs, where windpower was researched with the same flavor as the rest of shysters escaping to the desert from LA arrest warrants. Peter describes some of the weird history in his book. A footnote: Most modern wind turbines use induction generators, but utilities' huge power plant turbines are synchronous. My parent company James Howden sold Edison a synchronous 300 kW wind turbine for the center around 1985, perhaps their first real windmill test. Getting data from them was like breaking into your own house for a change of socks. They had all the best wind data as well, which was released selectively.
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #93 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Tue 27 Feb 01 09:33
permalink #93 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Tue 27 Feb 01 09:33
This came in via Utilicast NewsBriefs: ------------ ** California Transmission System Carries $1 Billion in Hidden Costs The 26, 000 miles of transmission lines that California Gov. Gray Davis is proposing to buy from the utilities are plagued with problems and no one knows how much it would cost to fix them. A new study by the California Public Utilities Commission has found 160 existing and potential problem areas, 53 of which are expected to significantly crimp the flow of electricity this summer. Some people have estimated the overall tab for all upgrades at about $1 billion. San Jose Mercury News, Feb. 24
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #94 of 318: David Gans (tnf) Tue 27 Feb 01 10:17
permalink #94 of 318: David Gans (tnf) Tue 27 Feb 01 10:17
More from Tom Gray: Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 12:48:26 -0500 From: Tom Gray <tomgray@igc.org> X-Accept-Language: en To: inkwell-hosts@well.com Subject: Reaping the Wind: Schachle The 3-MW machine (designed by Schachle and built, I believe, by Bendix several years before it became part of Allied Signal and dropped out of wind) has a special place in my heart because it was so bizarre. It was a huge and beefy machine that looked kind of like a '50s hood ornament for an auto the size of Manhattan. It seems to me that it took wind energy back about 500 years, because the yawing system (to point the turbine into the wind) was installed at the base--the entire machine revolved on a large circular concrete pad. The Dutch gave up on that idea centuries earlier in favor of having just the top of the machine rotate, which is the approach that all modern turbines use. But the important thing is, while Edison was focusing on making wind look silly, it was squandering a terrific long-term opportunity. There is more than enough wind in several Western states to provide a substantial percentage of the electricity California needs today. It might well be doing so by now if the utilities had been just a little more open to new ideas. The Bonneville Power Administration, a federal power marketing agency which sells electricity from hydro drams in the Northwest, released a request for proposals (RFP) last week for up to 1,000 MW of wind, or enough to generate as much electricity as 400,000 California homes use. I like to say that under my government, that RFP would have been released in 1988 or thereabouts. That would have probably been too early, but the industry was certainly ready to move up to that level five years ago.
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #95 of 318: David Gans (tnf) Tue 27 Feb 01 10:17
permalink #95 of 318: David Gans (tnf) Tue 27 Feb 01 10:17
And more form Tom Gray: Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:03:21 -0500 From: Tom Gray <tomgray@igc.org> X-Accept-Language: en To: inkwell-hosts@well.com Subject: Reaping the Wind: Changing Times Randy, I do believe the times are changing. Two items in today's e-mail haul: (1) Southwestern Power Systems, a north Texas utility that is now owned by Xcel Energy (based in Denver), said it will buy the power from an 80-MW wind plant to be built by the end of this year. The plant will consist of 80 1-MW machines, each generating enough electricity for about 400 California homes. (2) Danish turbine manufacturer NEG Micon said it will supply 89 900-kW turbines for an 80-MW wind farm being built in northern Iowa by Zilkha Renewable Energy (based in Houston, Tex.) and Midwest Renewable Energy Corp. Again, the turbines are to be in place by the end of this year. The industry is in a boom year because of the scheduled expiration of the U.S. wind energy production tax credit (PTC) at the end of this year. AWEA expects that as much as 2,000 MW of new plants may be built this year. That would be more than were built between 1981, when the first wind farms went into California, and the end of 1998. Tom
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #96 of 318: Gail Williams (gail) Tue 27 Feb 01 10:36
permalink #96 of 318: Gail Williams (gail) Tue 27 Feb 01 10:36
>the scheduled expiration of the U.S. wind energy production tax credit Is this something which should be extended? How likely is that?
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #97 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Tue 27 Feb 01 10:53
permalink #97 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Tue 27 Feb 01 10:53
AWEA executive director Randall Swisher said in the LA Times Sunday that shrub supported PTC extension during the campaign, and with buddy Ken Lay's Enron owning a windpower subsidiary, perhaps that's a real possibility. Our industry has been through several cycles of boom and bust based primarily on the appearance or dissappearance of tax incentives, which plays havoc with orderly corporate growth, the establishment of growing manufacturing facilities, and a coherent long-term energy transition. One effect of these constant, draining cycles is that the current wind industry is little able to make significant accelerated contributions to Cali's crisis beyond what was already in the development pipeline. Manufacturing and substation lead times are just long enough that we won't be adding many projects not already planned. However, one of the key benefits touted by windpower all along is that once policy decisions are made, or price signals sent, the industry can respond quite rapidly and incrementally. If the proper signals were given today, next year's installations could easily double this years.
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #98 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Tue 27 Feb 01 11:18
permalink #98 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Tue 27 Feb 01 11:18
Open letter to Governor Gray Davis: Tomorrow the big dogs of Wall Street will politely but firmly tell you their solutions to the California energy crisis. Then you can tell them we have an alternative. We can conserve our way out of next summer's shortages, and we can let aggressive renewable development take us the rest of the way home. Far greater efficiency than the 10% conservation reduction can be accomplished by a Rosie the Riveter type campaign. We spent two decades being ready to handle the rest of the transition, and we're ready to roll up our sleeves. Tell the big dogs to finance windpower, and new PV manufacturing facilities, and the rest of the sustainable energy package, now. They'll still get their fees, and they'll avoid their own children pointing fingers at them for dereliction of duty. Then tell them they can make just as much money off developing hydrogen as they can by squeezing dry the last drops of valuable fossil fuels. Tell them you know the California electorate will back you up. And we'll be just one giant step closer to a sane world. Respectfully, Randy P.S. Did you notice i didn't mention that we had to protect the California utilities?
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #99 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Tue 27 Feb 01 11:29
permalink #99 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Tue 27 Feb 01 11:29
Now if Peter would only get down off that met tower and tell us which way the wind's blowing.
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #100 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Tue 27 Feb 01 11:54
permalink #100 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Tue 27 Feb 01 11:54
Howdy Gang! I've been busy this morning preparing a document for legislators wanting to know how much solar PV would $1 billion buy. Turns put it would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 250 MW. The same amount of money would probably get you four times as much wind power. Does that mean we should do wind instead of solar? Not really, we should do both. One of the sales pitches for solar under the rotunda in Sacto is that PV should be viewed as a demand-reduction technology and therefore be eligible for funding set aside for energy efficiency. Even free market Republican contractors (who also hate utilities by the way) are now seeing $$$ in PV. Did anyone see the story about small wind turbines in today's SF CHron? I interviewed some of the same people for a story coming out in the next issue of Home Power magazine. I also just finished an op-ed that makes the poin that the state approach to solving this crisis -- with massive taxpayer investments in long-term fossil fuel buys and the purchase of a transmission system that obviously requires some pricey TLC -- could mute revitalized efforts to municipalize San Francsico and other cities. It could also ultimately discourage folks from installing their own solar or wind turbines. If the state is going to lock us all into these deals, they don't folks running off to create their own community-based power supply systems. Any thoughts?
Members: Enter the conference to participate. All posts made in this conference are world-readable.