Inkwell: Authors and Artists
Topic 105: Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #126 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Fri 2 Mar 01 11:07
permalink #126 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Fri 2 Mar 01 11:07
I just received a communication from the International Organization of Wind Energy Meteorologists (I-OWE-MET) that they are boycotting this discussion because the book doesn't include any meteorologists. My argument that it doesn't include any proctologists either seems not to have carried any weight. Peter, would you care to comment on the publisher who forced you at gunpoint to remove all references to meteorology from your tome?
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #127 of 318: Paul Bissex (biscuit) Fri 2 Mar 01 14:30
permalink #127 of 318: Paul Bissex (biscuit) Fri 2 Mar 01 14:30
I'm having a hard time keeping up with reading this topic, let alone make rapid progress through the book! Still, approaching the halfway mark, following <phabib> I would have to say that the stories of relentless and nearly instantaneous turbine failures have made a very strong impression. I imagine the early days of trying to make electricity from steam or running water were little different. I agree with the comments about photos or illustrations. If nothing else a few pages of images (and we all know that wind is the most photogenic alternative energy technology) would draw in browsers in the bookstores. Perhaps in the second edition? Thanks for the ref to Gipe in any case. Also, Peter (or anyone else for that matter) -- could you offer a recap of the tax-credit story on page 82ff? I am financially challenged and didn't quite understand how the tax breaks equated to "profits for nothing."
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #128 of 318: Paul Bissex (biscuit) Fri 2 Mar 01 15:06
permalink #128 of 318: Paul Bissex (biscuit) Fri 2 Mar 01 15:06
By the way, for others hungry for visuals, I found some pics amid some broken links: http://rotor.fb12.tu-berlin.de/literatur.html#picture.tours
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #129 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Fri 2 Mar 01 17:16
permalink #129 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Fri 2 Mar 01 17:16
Howdy folks! I'm sick and in bed and my brain is a little too mushy right now to answer these great questions. I'll give it a shot in the morning. I am thinking of making a few changes in the second edition (guess I'm being optimistic). We'll see what we can do in terms of pictures. Jim Dehlsen kept offering to provide wind turbine photos. Though I'm sure he would be a little pre-occupied with the Zond and Danish machines! Money FOr Nothing -- Chicks For Free? Too bad we can't get Alvin Duskin involved in thsi discussion since he is the one who made the quote. I hear he lives in Tomales.... signing off. TGIF!!!!!
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #130 of 318: Linda Castellani (castle) Fri 2 Mar 01 18:00
permalink #130 of 318: Linda Castellani (castle) Fri 2 Mar 01 18:00
Feel better, Peter.
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #131 of 318: windblown (satyr) Sat 3 Mar 01 13:11
permalink #131 of 318: windblown (satyr) Sat 3 Mar 01 13:11
Following the link in <128> I found this page... <http://rotor.fb12.tu-berlin.de/windfarm/sgpcal.html> ...the photo at the top of which is a wordless argument for the use of fewer, larger-scale turbines. While there's an upside to having any landscape cluttered with windplants, better to get the same effect with less clutter!
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #132 of 318: windblown (satyr) Sat 3 Mar 01 13:34
permalink #132 of 318: windblown (satyr) Sat 3 Mar 01 13:34
How about discussing power storage, which would seem key to taking intermittent power sources above that 20% of total generation level, or whatever the practical limit is in the absence of significant storage. There's at least one company, Innogy, working on large-scale, stationary batteries. Their Regenesys energy storage system... <http://www.regenesys.com/brochure_FSET.htm> ...uses liquid electrolytes which are stored in tanks and cycle through the "fuel cell" modules. (Not fuel cells in the sense of the catalytic oxidization of a hydrogen-bearing molecule to produce power directly. The electrolytes _are_ the fuel.) Also, I've recently had a spat of enthusiasm for the idea of using liquified air (3000 psi) as an energy storage medium, and wondered idly about the potential for directly using windpower to compress air, rather than directly generate electrical power.
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #133 of 318: Paul Bissex (biscuit) Sat 3 Mar 01 14:42
permalink #133 of 318: Paul Bissex (biscuit) Sat 3 Mar 01 14:42
I'm betting on the growth of flywheel tech.
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #134 of 318: windblown (satyr) Sat 3 Mar 01 14:44
permalink #134 of 318: windblown (satyr) Sat 3 Mar 01 14:44
Small and fast or massive and ponderous?
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #135 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Sat 3 Mar 01 15:21
permalink #135 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Sat 3 Mar 01 15:21
Good discussion. Well, I'm up out of bed but still hurting mentally and physically. Storage technologies are key. I received an odd call from out of the blue a few weeks back from a fellow, I believe a professor, named Norman Milleron. I think he said he worked at Lawrence Berkeley Labs. He was advocat linking wind power to compressed air storage. I know that Alvin Duskin, who I mentioned a little while ago, is now working on flywheel battery stuff. And Jim Dehlsen, another manin character in the book, is working on turbines that would be placed under water to generate power. He thinks that harnessing the energy in ocean currents is a very promising source of power since capacity factors in the ocean are more than double that of wind.
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #136 of 318: windblown (satyr) Sat 3 Mar 01 21:59
permalink #136 of 318: windblown (satyr) Sat 3 Mar 01 21:59
A situation where you have some use for low-grade heat at the point of production, and some use for refrigeration at the point of use, is ideal for using compressed or liquified air. This meme got planted in my head when it occurred to me that the easiest place on the planet to make liquid air has to be Antarctica, where there also happens to be abundant wind. Before calming down, I had visions of a distribution operation using semi-submersible tankers. Did you know that a column of water ~6600 feet deep produces sufficient pressure at its base to liquify air or prevent liquid air from boiling at room termperature, thus imposing a depth limit on the use of air-blown ballast in submarines? ;-)
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #137 of 318: Fuzzy Logic (phred) Sun 4 Mar 01 00:01
permalink #137 of 318: Fuzzy Logic (phred) Sun 4 Mar 01 00:01
Randy, you know damn well, as I do, that wind farmers must not *know* any meteorologists, because they figure you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows! My friend Don Bain is pretty close to the meteorology crowd, actually. He showed me national wind energy survey maps in the mid-1980 s that were pretty impressive -- Winnipeg down to Houston is basically Wind Alley, the only question -- the same old one faced by aggies since the dawn of time, is how to move the produce from farm to market.
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #138 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Sun 4 Mar 01 08:59
permalink #138 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Sun 4 Mar 01 08:59
Meteorologists....I blame on my childhood. I always felt that the weather persons let me down. The weather in Wisconsin (yes, I am a Cheese Head) is much more unpredictable than here on the Left Coast. I'd plan a special event, the damn wind would bring in these storm clouds, and... Seriously, I wanted to include folks like Don Bain in my book, nad many others. My editor pointed out, however, that I already had so many characters. He wanted to cut folks like Bob Lynette, the Carters, Bob Sherwin out. But I insisted that these folks stay because they each represented an important part of the story in terms of the relationship between inventors, technology and the financial community. That, in essence, is what Reaping The Wind is all about. ANd some the lessons learned from the development of wind power have broad applications and implications for the current energy crisis. By the way, I'm feeling much better today, Thank you. I can actually breathe! Yeah!
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #139 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Sun 4 Mar 01 09:12
permalink #139 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Sun 4 Mar 01 09:12
Back to the "prfits for nothing" quote. What Duskinis sayin that with the combination of the federal and state tax credits available in the '80s, and the depreciation schedules, an investor could sink $25,000 into a $100,000 wind farm and essentially get all of that money back in the form of deductions from one's tax liability. The "profits" refer to the income one sheltered from the IRS, money that otherwise would have gone to Uncle Sam. The federal tax credit and California state tax credits returned $50,000; depreciation schedules on the loan one took out to cover the remaining investment would allow one ot write off most of the loan amount, too. In the end, the cash investment and loan totals would come back to the investor. It was this irrestible outcome that fueled the growth of the wind industry. It also resulted in a backlash. Much of the book debates whether these tax credits were a good or bad thing. There are good arguments on both sides. What do readers think? How do the lessons learned from California's wind power tax credit days apply to today? Should we extend the production tax credit that is now in place? Why does a production tax credit make more sense today than the investment tax credit granted in the '80s? How can California, and the rest of the West, create a new investment environment that will stimulate a massive increase in renewable energy?
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #140 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Sun 4 Mar 01 09:15
permalink #140 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Sun 4 Mar 01 09:15
Boy, this Tanzania Peaberry coffee I bought from John Shababian's Coffee Works in Sacto is working wonders this morning. Book readers: What is your verdict on Kenetech? Did they deserve to go under? Was it Bryson at Southern California Edison that can be blamed for the collapse of the domestic wind power industry in the mid-90s? Will new power generation technologies always walk a fine line between the demands of financial markets and the perfectionist tendencies of engineers?
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #141 of 318: Fuzzy Logic (phred) Sun 4 Mar 01 16:05
permalink #141 of 318: Fuzzy Logic (phred) Sun 4 Mar 01 16:05
One of the key questions is how to stimulate commercialization of wind (which still needs a push to get over regulatory and operational barriers) as well as the other renewables. The combined state and federal financing in California in the early 1980s accomplished what other schemes did not, which was actually energy plants in the ground generating actual energy. So many other schemes had little or no effect. On the other hand, as Randy has long pointed out, this drew in a bunch of quick-buck artists who disrupted the necessary technology refinement process, and when the credits went poof a lot of development efforts that had potential just crashed. Kenetech is proof that IPO Disease existed long before March 2000. The sad thing is that they were profitable for several years (unlike many of the crash-and-burn dotcoms), and chose a hypergrowth path that required them to give up whatever integrity they had in order to bow down to the whims of Wall Street. I knew Kenetech's Oregon people like Barrett Stambler pretty well, and they weren't just penny-stock bandits; many of the people at Kenetech genuinely wanted wind to succeed -- and for them to be #1 worlwide of course. That's a traditional American attitude on how to grow a little business into a Fortune 500 business. So maybe they were Studebaker, but because there was no Ford or GM or Chrysler, when they cratered it sucked down the entire American wind business. Going forward, it's very important to support not just incentives for developing renewables, but the right kind, that don't lead to the grotesqueries of the 1980-95 period. Tying renewables funding to new oil development is just plain fucking dumb, because the absolutely dead-certain-predictable result is that the renewables money is likely to be frittered away, and having provided essential political cover to the new drilling, the new drilling goes on and on. There are those who would say that any government intervention in the markets is bound to distort them. There is a grain of truth in this, but generally this peevish 1983 attitude, which I still hear from those who prefer to have others do their thinking for them, disregards the reality of energy factors in the economy. Government intervention in tax, research, and policy areas as well as direct regulation is pervasive and never goes away. The flip side of this is that we get, pretty much, what we aim for. If anything, I wish Peter's book had focused more on this aspect of European wind development (maybe that's a good topic for your next book or long magazine article, Peter, plus it means expense account trips to Europe where you will need to consume large quantities of wine in order to converse with the cosmopolitan purveyors and regulators of wind energy there :)
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #142 of 318: Paul Bissex (biscuit) Sun 4 Mar 01 17:23
permalink #142 of 318: Paul Bissex (biscuit) Sun 4 Mar 01 17:23
I'm glad <phred> mentioned the parallels between Kenetech and the internet bubble. That same thought struck me very hard as I read about promises of technology that wasn't ready to perform, technically uninformed investors, and the drive to take over the world. If it were today they'd be talking about "dominating the wind space." I finished the book today.
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #143 of 318: Linda Castellani (castle) Sun 4 Mar 01 18:31
permalink #143 of 318: Linda Castellani (castle) Sun 4 Mar 01 18:31
Since I haven't read it, your comments leave me wondering: does that mean that wind power is not ready as a solution to California's energy crisis?
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #144 of 318: Paul Bissex (biscuit) Mon 5 Mar 01 06:17
permalink #144 of 318: Paul Bissex (biscuit) Mon 5 Mar 01 06:17
There's some debate about that going on in the <energy.> conference right now. I don't know enough to say, myself. I don't think that the industry's checkered past means it couldn't be of real service to California now, though.
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #145 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Mon 5 Mar 01 07:37
permalink #145 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Mon 5 Mar 01 07:37
One of the primary points of my book is to point how amazing the wind power story is. After all of the trials and tribulations, all of the tax scams and bankruptcies, wind power has finally arrived -- and just in time. If we don't harness the power of the wind, we are doomed. Global climate change demands it, the consumers want it, and it is the most logical near- and long-term solution to our power supply woes...
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #146 of 318: Linda Castellani (castle) Mon 5 Mar 01 13:03
permalink #146 of 318: Linda Castellani (castle) Mon 5 Mar 01 13:03
So, it isn't ready, yet??
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #147 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Mon 5 Mar 01 13:45
permalink #147 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Mon 5 Mar 01 13:45
No, it is totally ready RIGHT NOW. Wind power is the fastest growing power source in the world because of concerns about global climate change and the maturation of the technology. The technology -- both large and small wind turbines -- works today. Over 2,000 MW of new wind power will be coming on line in California, Nevada and the Pacific Northwest in the next few years. But we need a lot more than that to really make a difference. The purpose of my book was to show what an incredible success story this is. After all of the hard work, the technology is here to save us -- just in the nick of time. I've said it once and I'll say it again. If we -- California, the US, the world -- do not take full advantage of wind power, we are doomed, period. The energy crisis is a blessing because it is waking people up to energy. This precise moment in time is the clarion call. If we continue with buisiness as ususal, we surely are fools who deserve to fry.....
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #148 of 318: Linda Castellani (castle) Mon 5 Mar 01 16:14
permalink #148 of 318: Linda Castellani (castle) Mon 5 Mar 01 16:14
What are the obstacles?
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #149 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Mon 5 Mar 01 16:54
permalink #149 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Mon 5 Mar 01 16:54
The first obststacle is simply that wind turbine manufacturing production lines are not large enough to be able to react quickly to an immediate increase in orders. Manufacturers have been forced through several boom and bust cycles, and this year's production capacity is already allocated to projects in the current "pipeline." There will be but a maximum of a few hundred megawatts for Cali, and virtually none that weren't already planned. Further complicating matters is the pending expiration of the production tax credits at the end of the year. Again, as the result of continual boom and bust cycles, windpower hasn't been allowed to make cogent advance planning. (Last year 53 MWs, this year 2000 MWs.) Serious attention to immediate policy effects could indeed hasten development, but the prime initial target would have to be next summer's peak load. As Peter says, the upside of Cali's crisis could well be the first coherent renewables policy in the US in years.
inkwell.vue.105
:
Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #150 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Mon 5 Mar 01 17:10
permalink #150 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Mon 5 Mar 01 17:10
Some thoughts re: the tax credit years discussed in Peter's book. While there were certainly abuses of the tax credits, tax credits are always abused in any industry... there are always scams by the unscrupulous minority. In the case of windpower they were highly visible. But the flip side is that some 16,000 wind turbines were installed, the majority in credible projects, still performing today. From those installations, with half a billion operating hours in the first five years, came all the engineering data which matured the technology and resulted in today's turbines, and all the operations and maintenance experience needed to design sound projects. Further, the tax incentives, traditionally used to jumpstart any new technology, were a fraction of the huge subsidies given to conventional fuels. And remember, windpower incurs none of the non-tax costs to society from fossil and nuclear fuels, what price regulators refer to as "externalities, or social and environmental costs." These costs range from the relatively quantifieable, such as increased health care expense, to the realm where calculation is the subject of hot debate, such as military or global warming costs. The old renewables incentives of the 1980's were based on the installed cost of the turbine, leading to the abuses. Today's credits are based solely on the production of kilowatt hours, a key difference.
Members: Enter the conference to participate. All posts made in this conference are world-readable.