Inkwell: Authors and Artists

    
I've never lived in China, but I've heard explicit sayings to the effect
that overweight signifies wealth and luxury and middle age.
  

    
leroy, that was a lovely post.
  

    
leroy, thanks for posting that. it's true -- the way you express
yourself can indeed have something to do with it. and i think that
confidence tends to be sexy and attractive, for men and women. it draws
people out and draws them to you. 
  

    
but if you keep your New Yorker subscription, you can join the fun in
<media.1851>

Okay, Stuart, but I just spent 20 minutes there when I expected to do
a quick drive-by, and now I'm wondering: If I keep The New Yorker AND
hang out here, how the heck will I ever pay my rent?
  

    
<crow>'s post is fascinating to me.  The idea that you can be
comfortable enough with your body to walk around naked in front of
strangers, but be grossed out my the thought of having someone touch
your hands and feet.  I'm okay with the hands/feet, but someone staring
at my other body parts...hmmm.  And yet, I sort of "get" that.

Personally, much as I say I'm comfortable with my body, I don't think
I'd have the courage to walk around naked in front of strangers. 
Although it sounds nice.  I'd like to try it, actually.  But I was
reading a passage in a book today in which a woman in a bathtub in a
second-floor apartment falls through the ceiling and into a restaurant
on the ground floor.  During lunchtime.  Or dinnertime.  It was
crowded.  And as the author described people looking at her
(particularly, her breasts), I realized I'd be mortified if I'd been
the girl who fell naked into that restaurant.  

But when it comes to my body in front of my friends, or in front of a
boyfriend, I'm totally comfortable.  Not because I have such a fabulous
body, but because my body suits me.  It feels like "me."  It's home. 
I like it.  So why do I draw the line between that and being naked in
front of strangers?

One quick comment on judging people in a way that flies in the face of
our value system:  I was doing some research on the Internet today
(this was legitimate "research" - not typing in potential boyfriends'
names and getting the dirt on 'em!) and clicked on a writer's bio. To
my surprise, a picture popped up next to the bio.  And my first thought
was, "Wow.  Look at that pockmarked face!"  My second thought was,
"Did I just THINK that?"  Partly it was because I had imagined this
very successful person to be good-looking, in the way we so
narrow-mindedly assume that success and attractiveness are inexorably
linked. But part of it, the part I'm ashamed of, is that it was a
knee-jerk response to a person who was quite unattractive.  And before
I even looked at his bio., I'd judged his looks.  I hate myself for
having done that.
  

    
"Hmmm... just like high school? I hope not, but high school was the
most useless, stupid time of my life. But that's just me." 
 
It's not just you, Molly.  It's everyone.  People who deny this are
liars, if you ask me.
  

    
Molly, a friend just spent a few months in Japan.  She's also a pale,
red-headed, white woman.  And she also was stared at.
  

    
Leroy - I second (or third) the sentiment: "Lovely post."

You story about the two women also might explain why, as I posted
earlier, when men were asked what they find most attractive in a woman,
the majority have responded, "Comfort with herself."  

And think about how many of us go around sending off that "woman #2"
vibe because we feel so insecure about ourselves, when if we'd just
project the "woman #1" vibe, we'd be a lot happier and the external
world would respond so much more openly to us.  Thin or not.

I was thinking about this in the context of STICK FIGURE, and how in
my diaries, there's a passage in which a girl who doesn't have a
perfect body seems so happy with herself.  And I can't process this or
understand this because it's literally incomprehensible to me (the
eleven year old) that someone who looks like that could be so happy.  I
mean, the messages we get from the media are all about "Lose weight
and you'll find happiness."  Yeah, and anyone got some land for sale in
Florida?
  

    
<fraco> - It's interesting how different cultures give different
"meaning" to weight.  There was a study done about 5 years ago in which
the incidence of eating disorders in teen girls and young women was
analyzed.  First, in Japan.  Then, they looked at Japanese teenagers
and young women in the U.S., and found that this group had a
significantly higher incidence of eating disorders. So it wasn't that
Japanese girls and women are less susceptible to eating disorders by
virtue of their ethnicity.  In fact, it seemed that the culture (here,
in the U.S.) was the culprit.

I'd be interested in learning more about China and that country's
attitude toward women's bodies, given their attitude toward women in
general.  Many people believe that the less power women have in a
society, the more problematic the eating disorder issue is. (Because,
the theory goes, if women can't control their environment, they try to
compensate for this lack of power/control by controlling their bodies.)
 Yet women have it pretty good here (compared to other places), and we
seem to have a very big problem with body image.  So the more power
women have, the more we try to control our bodies?  Doesn't that seem
counterintuitive?  Or is it just that the American ethos is control in
general - the more we have it, the more we want it.  If so, why does it
affect mostly women?
  

    
I think you're onto something -- women's attitudes on their size and
weight are really institutionalized in American culture. It does affect
men in different ways (think of what David Gans said at the beginning
of this conversation). When we started the discussion here in
Inkwell.vue, I did some research on anorexia in men. Not surprisingly,
it occurs in body conscious gay men to a larger extent than straight
men. Why is that? Easy: it's that culture's emphasis on the body. In
addition, there are also men who are addicted to bulking up and working
out. It's a body image problem -- never buff enough, never big enough
muscles.

And all the same underlying pathos. 

So -- we're on the last day of this two week discussion (waaaah! I
don't want it to stop!). I'd love to see what kinds of conclusions
people have drawn. 

Lori, on that note, I liked the fact that you've published your 11
year old self's diaries. And yet a few posts ago, you were talking
about how happy you are in your body -- "it feels like me." That seems
like a very positive triumph over the body image problems you had as a
much younger person.
  

    
Here's how I know that my body "feels like me":

Recently I was dealing with a situation in which the guy I was dating
kept coming up with reasons why I wasn't meeting many of his friends,
or his parents.  My boyfriends have also loved introducing to their
friends and parents, pretty much from the moment we consider ourselves
a "couple."  In fact, they're always way ahead of me in terms of
readiness for that.  So I couldn't understand why the guy I was dating
didn't want me to meet his friends/parents.  When we accidentally ran
into his father one day, I was introduced as, "This is my friend,
Lori."  It felt so degrading.  "Is he embarrassed of me?" I wondered.

When I talked to my girlfriends about this, they all replied with,
"How could he be embarrassed of you?  You're beautiful."  They went
straight to physical appearance, the area many women are most insecure
in.  But it had never even OCCURRED to me that he might be embarrassed
of the way I LOOK! Again, I'm no model, but I just feel comfortable
with my appearance - and that includes my body.  But more than one
friend said she'd be wondering - however irrationally - that the guy
might be embarrassed of her looks.

When I asked my male friends whether the guy I was dating might be
embarrassed, they had several theories, but none had to do with
something about me being deficient - physically or otherwise.  The
"otherwise" stuff just never came up with the women.  Hmmm.

My (longwinded!) point is, the fact that I wasn't attractive enough to
meet his friends/parents never even crossed my mind.  So yeah, I've
come a long way from the eleven-year-old girl who wrote those diaries.
  

    
The other thing I wanted to say (but clicked on "post" by accident -
SEE, I am technologically-challenged - or have a massive twitch in my
right hand) re: my body "feeling like me."

The aspects of my body that I like best are very specific to MY body. 
I'm really tiny (5'2" and small-boned and not curvy) which I used to
think made me look like a little girl instead of a voluptuous, sexy
woman.  I used to HATE my body.  But now I find my tiny self adorable. 
I wake up and see myself and I smile, in that familiar way one smiles
when seeing someone they know intimately.  Before I get posts of
"Narcissist egomaniac!" - I mean only that my body's a good fit for the
woman inside.  I like the paradoxical combination of tiny girl on the
outside, strong but sensual woman on the inside.  It captures the
quirkiness and contradictions in my personality.  I like being "housed"
in this body.  It's a good fit.

It's sort of like:  I told my boyfriend that he had a perfect body
part (which I won't name here).  "What makes it perfect?" he asked.  I
described what I liked about it so much, but the reality is, it's
perfect only because it's HIS.  It's part of HIM.  Put that body part
on any other guy, and it's just another generic body part - I've seen
worse, I've seen better.  That's how I feel about my body.  I've grown
attached to it by virtue of it being MINE, and it's the only body I'll
ever have.  So I may as well appreciate it, right?
  

    
Yep.  Context is everything!
  

    
Molly's comment about how culture affects men (and particularly gay
men) with body image issues seems incredibly insightful to me.  Any men
wanna comment?

I did read a book about men and body image that talked a lot about men
bulking up with steroids or losing weight to make weight requirements
for sports (like featherweight wrestling).  It seems to me women's
obession with body image stems from a need to look good but with men,
it may have more to do with PERFORMANCE and STRENGTH (as in sports).  I
could be wrong.  Just an observation.
  

    

<explode> said:

>And I think it's terrific, just terrific, that you went and learned how to
>dance. It sounds like a good way to make friends with your body.

That last sentence has two meanings -- in a good way!  :^)



<taragl> said:

>I see my observations about how a smile is used to communicate in so many
>ways and how the absence of one left me outside of that communication.

I think it was Kurt Vonnegut who wrote in one of his novels about a dog that
couldn't wag its tail.



<lori-gottlieb> said:

>You story about the two women also might explain why, as I posted earlier,
>when men were asked what they find most attractive in a woman, the majority
>have responded, "Comfort with herself."

I think that is true for both sexes, leaving aside the segment of society
that really buys into the "attratciveness"  bit.

It's related to the fact that once you become attached, you become more at-
tractive to the unattached :^)



<explode> said:

>So -- we're on the last day of this two week discussion (waaaah! I don't
>want it to stop!). I'd love to see what kinds of conclusions people have
>drawn.

This conversation does not have to stop.  I hope it continues ad infnitum --
I am enjoying it immensely.
  

    

Which allows me to segue into my thank you speech!  Thank you very, very
much Molly and Lori for doing such a fabulous job on this interview.  I
know I've enjoyed it very much, and based on the participation, I would
have to say I'm not the only one!

But, it does not have to end.  It can continue for as long as you feel
like hanging out and talking.  And don't forget to check out the rest of
the WELL.  I think you will like it, too.
  

    
Yeah, this is freat fun, Lori & Molly.  Thanks.
  

    
Thanks, leroy!

Lori, I wouldn't say I"m grossed out, exactly, by having someone touch my
hands or feet. It's not that I'm ashamed to have someone look at my toenails
or something. Maybe it's that it feels too intimate. You hold hands with a
lover, you massage someone's feet after you know each other well. I guess
I've become desensitized to having someone handle my hair when I get it cut,
but I've never really enjoyed that, either.

Massage is different because it's deliberatly desensitized, in a way. You're
covered with a sheet, even if the practioner pulls it aside to work on
various areas. They don't touch any of your red light zones, just neutral
areas.

Being nude at a nudist camp is about context too. I'd feel terribly
embarassed if I felt into a restaurant in a bathtub, too! And I don't get
naked with my friends because we just don't do that, though with one or two
there have been incidents with hot tubs etc and that was okay. But we all
said something like "this sure feels awkward!"

And nobody stares at a nudist camp, or if they do they are very discrete
about it. They're set up to be non-sexual, with warnings about harassment
etc. I need this to feel safe, personally.
  

    
<crow>, I'm so interested in what you're saying about being at a
nudist camp.  You've almost inspired me, believe it or not, to give it
a try.  Two things I've wanted to do for a long time are (1) take salsa
lessons and (2) check out a nudist camp.  I need a huge nudge to do
either.  It's like the person who keeps thinking, "I should really get
out of this marriage" but languishes in it for years - inertia - until
one night he/she will be at dinner or in a bookstore and someone --
maybe the people at the next table, or the couple browsing in the
best-seller section -- will say something that just CLICKS.  And this
something somehow (coincidentally) applies to his/her situation and
makes the person go, "AHA!"  The next day, he/she files for divorce.
Just like that.

I never expected to encounter postings about a nudist camp in my
book's discussion, but I think it's perhaps serendipitous.  Like the
"Aha" moment I was talking about above.  I've often considered taking
salsa or going to a nudist camp as part of an article - hiding behind
the veil of "journalist" (plus then the magazine would pay!) - but that
would change the entire experience.  So now I'm thinking, "What am I
waiting for?"  "What's stopping me?"  Other than, of course, shyness
and terror.  Can you go for just a few days?  Or two days?  Or one day?
(I'm chickening out as I write this.  Funny, that.) 

I picked salsa and nudist camps, btw, because I had a feeling that
either experience would cause me to look at the things differently. 
I'm not sure what things, but things.  Maybe it would change my
perspective, get me "out of my head" so much, bring me in closer
contact with my body, if I can say stuff like that and not sound like a
new-agey wannabe.
  

    
"I think it was Kurt Vonnegut who wrote in one of his novels about a
dog that couldn't wag its tail."

God, what a powerful image!  Which Vonnegut novel?  Although, those
people who don't smile?  There's another version of that in L.A. -
partly it's cultural (don't smile at strangers, I am Busy and
Important); but partly it's all those Botox injections.  Lots of people
in L.A. couldn't smile if they WANTED to. 
  

    
"It's related to the fact that once you become attached, you become
more attractive to the unattached :^)"

(Sorry, Gail - you taught me how to copy people's names and hyperlink,
and I'm being lazy and using quotation marks again!)

Gans - Yeah, but then you've got this co-dependent dynamic going on. 
Two attached people (attached to themselves so they can then attach to
others) are the best combo.  Otherwise, one is always relying on the
other for validation, when the validation needs to come from inside
first.  Of course, I'm analyzing what was simply some clever wordplay,
which must be pretty annoying...
  

    
Castle - I will hang out.  And I HAVE been checking out all the nooks
and crannies on the WELL.  I want to say thanks to the million
bazillion gazillion power for inviting lil' ol' me into this
fascinating community and for offering me not just a temporary passport
and VISA, but the equivalent of a green card, if not bona fide
citizenship. (To pass the citizenship test, though, I'll need to prove
that I CAN hyperlink! Maybe Gail can sponsor me?)  Ironically (given
that the topic has been my childhood diaries), I've made several
entries in my present-day journals about how this experience has
affected me (in a good way). 

Don't worry, I won't turn these journals into another book...STICK
FIGURE was the only collection of my journals I'll ever publish.  After
the first one, you gotta say to yourself, "What makes YOU so
interesting, huh?"  Actually, you have to say that about the first one,
too. And I remember that right after I sold the book - it was sold
based on a proposal in which I wrote convincingly about how, um,
interesting my journals were - first I relished in the fact that I had
a book contract.  Then about a millisecond later I thought, "Oh God, I
can't publish these.  They're so NOT interesting!"
  

    
More on thank you's: 

I "met" Molly via email in the cyber greenroom a day or so before this
discussion went live.  Or up.  Or online.  Or whatever the lingo is.
And I liked her immediately.  Anyone who can make me laugh in a first
email automatically moves out of the anonymous email clutter pile to
the "potential friend" level.  We exchanged our proverbial life
sketches and I went to her fabulous website (which you should all check
out - it's her very entertaining online journal + other goodies) and I
knew, that first day, that she was a perfect fit to moderate this
discussion on my childhood diaries.  (Kudos to Castle for making THAT
call.)

So, uber-thanks to Molly for the lively posts and behind-the-scenes
"Is this okay?" check-ins.  No, Molly, it wasn't "okay" - it was
incredible.  
  

    
Sigh...in a "behind-the-scenes" email to Molly on logistics, last
night I asked, "Do I get to post tomorrow, or will I be booted off the
Island?"  Apparently, Castle held the answer - I'm still on the Island
today. And no one's booting me off.

But even so, I told Molly that I felt sad last night, like the last
day of camp, except there's no silver lining to leaving: a home-cooked
meal and a clean shower. And there's a certain dynamic that takes place
while the discussion is still "new" - it's like going to camp for a
two-week session and even though some people come back for Visitor's
Day - by then the group dynamic has changed. It's still fun to visit,
but it's not the same. 

So even though I plan to visit, I wanna say now how grateful I am to
all of you who showed up and shared your thoughts and made me laugh and
smile and think about things from a new perspective or validate one I
already have, or cared anough to ask questions about my book and the
experiences in those diaries (and handled a very personal period of my
life so delicately and thoughtfully).

For two weeks, every night before bed, no matter what happened in my
life that day, I got to chat with what used to be total strangers about
Goth and pedicures and nudist colonies and our crazy f-up culture and
small ways we might try to make it slightly more sane.  Or if not the
culture, make OURSELVES more sane.  Plus I learned a lot. What could
beat that?

See ya soon everyone...
  

    
Thank you, Lori!  If you have technical questions or *any* questions about
the Well, <wellcome.> is a good place to ask them.