inkwell.vue.150 : David Mason: Spirit of the Mountains
permalink #101 of 234: Gerry Feeney (gerry) Mon 27 May 02 09:54
    
That's interesting, Mitsu, and new to me.  

Another thing that made me think that the swastika was more Indian
than Buddhist was Rudyard Kipling's use of it.  Kipling (author of
"Jungle Book" fame), was born in India of British parents and lived
there for a number of years.  He adopted the swastika practically as
part of his identity.  The following link is to an image of his
signature stamp:

http://www.well.com/user/gerry/RKSig.jpg

This is from a book of mine titled _Plain Tales From the Hills_,
printed in 1907 (revised - original published in 1899).  I also have an
incomplete multi-volume set of Kipling's Works that feature four
swastikas on the spine of each volume.  Sometimes visitors who spot it
on my bookshelf exclaim, "What's with these Nazi books?  What are you
into?"

Anyway, Kipling obviously picked it up in India, and during the time
he was there, all Buddhists (and Buddhism itself by and large) had long
since been forcibly expelled from India.
  
inkwell.vue.150 : David Mason: Spirit of the Mountains
permalink #102 of 234: Berliner (captward) Mon 27 May 02 09:56
    
The Nazis called it the Hackenkreuz, or "broken cross." No idea why
they adopted it, but it may have been as much their anti-Christian
thing as anything else. 
  
inkwell.vue.150 : David Mason: Spirit of the Mountains
permalink #103 of 234: Gerry Feeney (gerry) Mon 27 May 02 10:13
    
Hmmm, now that I actually look closely at that multi-volume set, I see
that those swastikas have the arms pointing clockwise.  Here's
something from the title page of one of them:

http://www.well.com/user/gerry/RKTitle.jpg

But, as noted above, these are all displayed on the square, rather
than diagonally.

(captward) slipped in.  I think it was the Aryan aspect of it on which
they were focusing, but I'm not sure.
  
inkwell.vue.150 : David Mason: Spirit of the Mountains
permalink #104 of 234: Gail Williams (gail) Mon 27 May 02 11:40
    

The swastika pattern is a natural for textiles or other grid-based arts, and
both clockwise and countercolockwise examples are found in the basketry and
other arts of Navajo and other southwest American peoples, Aztecs, Mayans 
and I believe Inca too, each with very different cultural contexts.
  
inkwell.vue.150 : David Mason: Spirit of the Mountains
permalink #105 of 234: (fom) Mon 27 May 02 11:57
    
(When I say clockwise, I mean appearing to rotate in a clockwise 
direction, with the right angles rather than the arms "pointing" 
clockwise, and the arms trailing. So I think mitsu and I are saying the 
same thing but using opposite terminology.)
  
inkwell.vue.150 : David Mason: Spirit of the Mountains
permalink #106 of 234: David A. Mason (mntnwolf) Mon 27 May 02 18:38
    
right...  the one used in Korea for Buddhism is always:

  ______     .
       I     I
  _____I_____I
  I    I
  I    I______

So we're agreeing that this is turning "clockwise", with the arms 
trailing behind giving the sense of motion?  Cross + Wheel combined.

Resembles a spiral and a spiral-armed galaxy, too.
  
inkwell.vue.150 : David Mason: Spirit of the Mountains
permalink #107 of 234: (fom) Mon 27 May 02 18:53
    
Also resembles the Basque cross (the Laburru? I think it's called) which 
is really ancient, probably older than the Vedas. (It's the same symbol, 
only with curved paisley-shaped arms instead of angular ones.)
  
inkwell.vue.150 : David Mason: Spirit of the Mountains
permalink #108 of 234: newly refurbished co-host (lara) Mon 27 May 02 20:24
    
David, I haven't finished reading "Spirit of the Mountains" yet, and so this
post is more of a comment than a question. I just wanted to say how moving
I've found it to discover, through this very beautiful book, that there is
such a strong and intact tradition of mountain worship in Korea.

I've always had a bit of a thing for mountains, and have visited several
sacred mountains in various parts of the world -- Tai Shan in China, Uluru
(Ayers Rock) in Australia, the Himalaya, and others, and of course, our
local beauty, Mt. Tamalpais. Of course, people the world over have
attributed spiritual characteristics to mountains, and individual
personalities, but it's astonishing to come across the quality of art and
the depth and intricacy of the folklore in the shamanic tradition of Korea,
about which I was entirely ignorant before reading your book.

Thank you so much for all your dedication and effort in gathering together
all this information. You've done a fantastic job.
  
inkwell.vue.150 : David Mason: Spirit of the Mountains
permalink #109 of 234: Gerry Feeney (gerry) Mon 27 May 02 20:50
    
David, how is the presence of a mountain spirit perceived among
San-shin devotees?  I mean, suppose I'm a guy living in a village at
the base of one of these mountains in Korea.  Do I have a sense that
the San-shin in omnipresent?  Might I have some little token or shrine
in my bedroom?  Or is it only when I actually go up into the mountains
that I consider myself to be in San-shin's domain?  Am I thinking about
the spirit when I'm not on the mountain?  Am I concerned with
appeasing it or not displeasing it when I'm not on the mountain?
  
inkwell.vue.150 : David Mason: Spirit of the Mountains
permalink #110 of 234: David A. Mason (mntnwolf) Tue 28 May 02 04:11
    
Thanks much for your comments, (lara).  Yes, it was a moving "find" 
for me, too -- still is.

> Tai Shan in China
You've been there?  y'know, that's one of my biggest frustrations.
The holiest mtn in China, the only one with a "personified" spirit
(who is one of the 'Ten Judge-Kings of Hell' in NE-Asian Buddhism,
strangely) -- and not even very far from me -- and i've never been
there!  I tried *3 times* from 1983 - 98, but weather/logistics/
injury prevented it each time.   Someday...

I used to have a China-travel-partner who speaks reads writes Chinese
well -- invaluable -- but no longer do.
  
inkwell.vue.150 : David Mason: Spirit of the Mountains
permalink #111 of 234: David A. Mason (mntnwolf) Tue 28 May 02 04:23
    
> #109 of 110: Gerry Feeney (gerry) Mon 27 May '02 
> David, how is the presence of a mountain spirit perceived among
> San-shin devotees?  

Mostly just as an unseen "spiritual presence", or in a dream or 
trance-vision.

> I mean, suppose I'm a guy living in a village at the base of one 
> of these mountains in Korea.  Do I have a sense that the San-shin
> in omnipresent?  

Living somewhere "up there" in the crags.  Doesn't reveal itself
easily, and it's often bad news if it does.

> Might I have some little token or shrine in my bedroom?  

No, just the shrine up behind the village.

> Or is it only when I actually go up into the mountains that I 
> consider myself to be in San-shin's domain?  

Mostly right.

> Am I thinking about the spirit when I'm not on the mountain?

No, unless planning a ritual, i guess.

> Am I concerned with appeasing it or not displeasing it when I'm 
> not on the mountain?
 
Prolly not.  Just when you're in his domain -- the upper wilderness.
It seems that if villagers of the past experienced a tiger attack
while tending their fields or cutting wood, etc -- incl a tiger 
carrying off a child -- they considered that a punishment from the
San-shin for some transgression (like cutting a sacred tree, or...).
Other Bad Fortune -- say, breaking a bone in your home or field,
or having your crop eaten by pests -- might be attributed by the 
local shaman to San-shin's anger, or might be laid on another spirit.
  
inkwell.vue.150 : David Mason: Spirit of the Mountains
permalink #112 of 234: Lara Owen (lara) Tue 28 May 02 09:53
    
Re Taishan -- yes, I went there in 1983, while I was training in Chinese
medicine in Beijing. Four of us hiked to the top and were the only
Westerners among the thousands of people making the trek. We stayed the
night and ventured out at dawn, awoken by a loud gong, to sit at the side of
the ridge and watch the sun come up over the vasy valley before us. Then we
hiked back down the mountain. One of the highlights of my life. Very very
special, for many reasons.
  
inkwell.vue.150 : David Mason: Spirit of the Mountains
permalink #113 of 234: Gerry Feeney (gerry) Tue 28 May 02 19:22
    
That sounds like w onderful experience, Lara.  I envy you that.
  
inkwell.vue.150 : David Mason: Spirit of the Mountains
permalink #114 of 234: Gerry Feeney (gerry) Tue 28 May 02 19:36
    
> ... they considered that a punishment from the
> San-shin for some transgression (like cutting a
> sacred tree, or...)

David, I remember in your book you mentioned something about not
breaking the San-shin's taboos, and there was a note/reference number
there.  I was too lazy to follow up the reference.  Can you list some
examples of what these are, in addition to cutting a sacred tree?  

Also, how is a sacred tree identified?  Are there regarded to be
varying levels of sanctity with a mountain's objects (say, rocks and
streams) and flora & fauna?  I gather that all living things on a
mountain are considered the "property" of the San-shin.  


 
  
inkwell.vue.150 : David Mason: Spirit of the Mountains
permalink #115 of 234: David A. Mason (mntnwolf) Tue 28 May 02 20:06
    
Yes, i guess they are.  
There is no written doctrine/guide to determining the sacredness of
trees, rocks, streams, waterfalls -- or mountains themselves -- so 
it's up to the locals & practitioners.  As far as i can tell in my
years of observations, it has a lot to do with the obvious factors
-- size, prominence, uniqueness.

Taboos... i'm not an expert on that... but they range from practical
stuff like not fouling (i.e. shitting in) the stream that runs down
to your village, to more psychological dictums like not having 
"impure thoughts" or cursing out loud.

When i lived in a hermit-farmhouse on "Triple Crags Mountain" in 
1998, i knew that the fall San-shin ritual was coming soon (i had 
attended the one in the spring, took photos), so one day i walked 
the 10 minutes back behind my house into the forest to the Village
Shrine at the mouth of a rocky gorge (prominent pine tree above) 
(see opening pages of my book).  I cleaned up its area -- carried 
out one huge garbage-bag full of old bottles & cans & paper & crap.

Thought i was doing something good, told an old farmer nearby that 
i'd done so.  He was horrified.  Turned out that my action broke a
taboo about not touching the shrine until the auspicious day of the
ritual!  They had to delay the rite until the next auspicious day.
They were pissed at me, didn't invite me when they held it.  Oh,
well....  at least a tiger didn't attack me.
  
inkwell.vue.150 : David Mason: Spirit of the Mountains
permalink #116 of 234: David A. Mason (mntnwolf) Tue 28 May 02 20:24
    
> #112 of 115: Lara Owen (lara) Tue 28 May 

Great experience you had on Tai-shan, lara -- I also went to China
in 1983, and Geez, there weren't many foreigners there at all then!
And so few who could speak English, and so very little information
in English... it was a damn rough trip.  I went all around a big 
loop, with a backpack, riding the trains for 6 weeks...  back then
there were only 29 cities "open" for foreigners!  I had several un-
pleasant encounters with the police...  missed Tai-shan THAT time 
because of heavy rains.

I've done the hike-to-the-peak-and-sleep-over-in-the-temple-watch-
the-sunrise thang at four other Chinese mountains --- Emei-shan, 
Jizu-shan and Wu-tai-shan (sacred to Buddhists) and Wei-bao-shan 
(Daoist).  Hardship, but very special indeed.  Too much fog at 
Hwang-shan (Daoist) and Puto-shan (Buddhist), heavy rains at Jihua-
shan (Buddhist)...  ya take yer chances, and ya never know.

A notable difference between China and Korea -- the Chinese build 
those temples right on the peak of the holy mountain (and plenty 
more on the slopes & in the valley).  Koreans NEVER do that.  Pretty
close sometimes (100 meters from the peak), but not on it.  Greater
respectfor / fear of the San-shin perhaps?  Or just because there's 
rarely a spring of water that high up...? 
  
inkwell.vue.150 : David Mason: Spirit of the Mountains
permalink #117 of 234: Gerald Feene (gerry) Tue 28 May 02 20:32
    <scribbled by gerry Tue 28 May 02 20:34>
  
inkwell.vue.150 : David Mason: Spirit of the Mountains
permalink #118 of 234: Gerry Feeney (gerry) Tue 28 May 02 20:34
    
Wow, David!  What a hard lesson to learn!  I suppose that's one of
those things that can be categorized as culture clash?  Or is it?  How
likely or unlikely is it that a Korean city-slicker from Seoul could
make the same mistake?  I guess my question really is, would that
particular problem be a matter of knowing about San-shin, or knowing
about Korean culture in general?

There's nothing in my own experience that directly relates to that. 
But living in Mexico in my teens and early 20's, I learned an awful
lot about subtle nuances of the culture - stuff that nobody ever
explains to you, even when you're fluent in Spanish.  Indeed, it's
precisely *because* one attains fluency in Spanish that the locals take
it for granted that you also acquired those "unwritten laws" along
with proficiency in the language - thus they don't cut you the same
slack that they would to a bloke who's obviously struggling with the
language - he's a _foreignor_ and doesn't know better.  I learned a lot
of stuff the *hard way* like that - many tedious, awkward, embarassing
moments in social situations where I thought I was doing the right
thing and ended up having people pissed off at me for reasons about
which I could not even begin to guess.
  
inkwell.vue.150 : David Mason: Spirit of the Mountains
permalink #119 of 234: David A. Mason (mntnwolf) Tue 28 May 02 21:03
    
Yup, that has happened to me a lot...  :-(    I was lucky to have a
Korean wife for 13 years who was sensitive to cross-cultural stuff
and thus explain to me, drop hints -- sometimes even warn in advance.

> ... would that particular problem be a matter of knowing about 
> San-shin, or knowing about Korean culture in general?

Possibly more general.  Koreans don't interfere in anything that is
not their direct business -- except radical-activist-college-student
sorts, who are considered over-idealistic.  If they do have an idea 
to do something unusual, there're many rounds of consultations first.
It takes an American to, without talking with anyone senior before-
hand, go out to "do something good".  Both good and bad points of
*our* culture, and of theirs...
  
inkwell.vue.150 : David Mason: Spirit of the Mountains
permalink #120 of 234: Roger Windsor (jonl) Wed 29 May 02 07:16
    
Email from Roger Windsor:

San-shin is of historical interest, and important to those who continue to
follow the shamanic beliefs, but do you see San-shin playing any role in
the future of Korea, or will it merely fade away along with other
traditional practices as modern culture continues to flood Asia and other
parts of the world? What role could, or should, it play on the national
scene and in the individual lives of Koreans?
 
 
Thanks,
 
Roger Windsor
  
inkwell.vue.150 : David Mason: Spirit of the Mountains
permalink #121 of 234: Jim Fisher (fishjim) Wed 29 May 02 10:09
    
Thanks so much for the geology posts in #78 and #79, David -- that's
exactly what I was looking for.  "Tao Peak" Mountain is indeed an
awesome formation!
  
inkwell.vue.150 : David Mason: Spirit of the Mountains
permalink #122 of 234: Pseud Impaired (mitsu) Wed 29 May 02 11:09
    
>there're many rounds of consultations first

This is also a very Japanese cultural trait.  It strikes me (and has often
occurred to me) that, despite the Koreans deep hatred/fear of Japanese, and
despite the traditional disdain Japanese have held for Koreans (both of
these are feelings that are, thankfully, waning --- in fact, I've read that
in recent years in Japan, there has been an upswell in the fashionability of
Koreans --- I think this was partly spurred on by internal criticism
as well as foreign pressure) --- but despite the long-held, let's call it
tension, between the two countries, the two actually share quite a few
cultural qualities.  This is perhaps hardly surprising as both countries are
not only physically proximate but also have a similar geography --- both
are largely mountainous, etc.

And of course Japan also has a long tradition of reverence for mountains and
mountain gods (or kami), along with the innumerable other Shinto nature gods
associated with streams and other natural phenomena, though they don't really
have something akin to San-shin with its varied and rich iconography and
artistic history.

I remember when Koreans first began to move to Los Angeles (my home town)
in large numbers, quite a few settled in Gardena, which is the largest
Japanese-American community on the mainland (and where I grew up).  It
seemed natural to me at the time, but also a bit curious, given the
hostility Koreans traditionally feel for Japanese.  Yet still, more
familiar than Americans?  When some Koreans opened a fashion shop next door
to my parents' business, we went over to welcome them to the neighborhood,
and they seemed kind of surprised or something --- I'm not sure if that
was Korean reserve or if they were surprised that Japanese would welcome
them.

I'm sure one could write volumes on the tortured relationship between the
two nations, but I am curious if you have noticed attitudes in Korea towards
Japanese changing or shifting --- is there a recognition of what seems to
me to be this similarity (though I am sure many Koreans wouldn't want to
acknowledge that!  as well as Japanese...)?  Why do you think Koreans would
feel more comfortable moving into a Japanese neighborhood, despite the
long-running conflicts between the two countries?
  
inkwell.vue.150 : David Mason: Spirit of the Mountains
permalink #123 of 234: Pseud Impaired (mitsu) Wed 29 May 02 11:13
    
(I am still thinking about the Bateson question and I will post more on that
later).
  
inkwell.vue.150 : David Mason: Spirit of the Mountains
permalink #124 of 234: David A. Mason (mntnwolf) Wed 29 May 02 19:42
    
Yesterday, i was the invited guest-speaker of the Seong-cheon Mun-
hwa Hoe-dan [Sage-stream Cultural Foundation/Institute].  It's run
by a 92-year-old former president of Korea's top university, a well-
known calligrapher and nationalist educator with pen-name "Seong-
cheon".  Very healthy, spry & alert for 92...  Keeps a old brick on
his desk encased in plastic -- it's from the old West Gate Prison 
where he was held and tortured on-&-off 1935-45...  a Christian, but
displays an excellent collection of small Buddhist statues from all
over Asia.

Anyway, he runs this adult-education institute where he and some 
famous profs lecture on the greatest classics of Korea, Asia and 
the world -- Toegye, I Ching, Plato, Wonhyo, Mencius, Kant, etc.
Yesterday, he had me in there to speak on "The Place of San-shin in
Korea's Traditions".  100 or so students.  I talked for 90 min incl
showing 25 slides; a college-boy stood next to me and translated 
each sentence into Korean (i'm just not nearly good enuff in K to 
do a lecture), tho i used a lot of Korean vocabulary of course.  I
always do these talks without text or notes, just make an outline in
my mind and talk spontaneously...  works out well.

I surveyed the historical stuff and San-shin's connections to other
religions, as in the book.  But i spent the last 30 min on the ideas
in my Chap 4 -- the present and future of San-shin in Korea and the
world. As if answering what was asked in #120 above.  This is pretty
controversial stuff for Koreans to hear -- they perked up & stirred,
looked amazed, whispered to each other, nodded, smiled.   Applause 
was heavy when i finished (on time!).

At the end was question-time, and the usual happened -- a retired 
gentleman jumped up and launched into a speech, condemning me and
my ideas from a Protestant point of view -- "why are you promoting 
old superstitions, which will only mislead people? What you speak of
is a *dying* culture, it has no place in modern Korea, but you don't
seem to know that. Shamanism is dangerous to us, it's 'against God'.
It's shameful to expose these superstitions to foreigners" and etc.
Typical.  Embarassing.  

I was thankful that ol' "Sage Stream" himself stepped in and gently 
shut the guy down.  He didn't seem to quite agree with me, but 
respected the quality of my ideas and the photos i had to back them 
up.  Most of the audience sided with me, as far as they sided at all.

Afterwards, i talked with "Sage Stream" in his office, and gave him
a copy of my book, he was pleased.  He gave me a porcelain brush-
holder-pot with his calligraphy on it, I was pleased.  The secretary
slipped me a $170 honorarium, and i headed back to my Tourism office
by subway.  My bosses don't like me taking time off for this kind 
of thing, were grudging about it (we're real busy these days, with
the World Cup Finals opening in Seoul TOMORROW).

Just another day in my mission  ;-)
  
inkwell.vue.150 : David Mason: Spirit of the Mountains
permalink #125 of 234: David A. Mason (mntnwolf) Wed 29 May 02 19:46
    
And a big press-conference this afternoon, for all the international
media covering the non-soccer sides of the World Cup festival...  I
hafta play MC, give little intro-speeches.  So i can't answer the
above posts now; will get to them as soon as.  As Linda Richman said  
"Talk amongst yourselves"   :-)
  

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