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permalink #101 of 234: Gerry Feeney (gerry) Mon 27 May 02 09:54
permalink #101 of 234: Gerry Feeney (gerry) Mon 27 May 02 09:54
That's interesting, Mitsu, and new to me. Another thing that made me think that the swastika was more Indian than Buddhist was Rudyard Kipling's use of it. Kipling (author of "Jungle Book" fame), was born in India of British parents and lived there for a number of years. He adopted the swastika practically as part of his identity. The following link is to an image of his signature stamp: http://www.well.com/user/gerry/RKSig.jpg This is from a book of mine titled _Plain Tales From the Hills_, printed in 1907 (revised - original published in 1899). I also have an incomplete multi-volume set of Kipling's Works that feature four swastikas on the spine of each volume. Sometimes visitors who spot it on my bookshelf exclaim, "What's with these Nazi books? What are you into?" Anyway, Kipling obviously picked it up in India, and during the time he was there, all Buddhists (and Buddhism itself by and large) had long since been forcibly expelled from India.
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permalink #102 of 234: Berliner (captward) Mon 27 May 02 09:56
permalink #102 of 234: Berliner (captward) Mon 27 May 02 09:56
The Nazis called it the Hackenkreuz, or "broken cross." No idea why they adopted it, but it may have been as much their anti-Christian thing as anything else.
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permalink #103 of 234: Gerry Feeney (gerry) Mon 27 May 02 10:13
permalink #103 of 234: Gerry Feeney (gerry) Mon 27 May 02 10:13
Hmmm, now that I actually look closely at that multi-volume set, I see that those swastikas have the arms pointing clockwise. Here's something from the title page of one of them: http://www.well.com/user/gerry/RKTitle.jpg But, as noted above, these are all displayed on the square, rather than diagonally. (captward) slipped in. I think it was the Aryan aspect of it on which they were focusing, but I'm not sure.
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permalink #104 of 234: Gail Williams (gail) Mon 27 May 02 11:40
permalink #104 of 234: Gail Williams (gail) Mon 27 May 02 11:40
The swastika pattern is a natural for textiles or other grid-based arts, and both clockwise and countercolockwise examples are found in the basketry and other arts of Navajo and other southwest American peoples, Aztecs, Mayans and I believe Inca too, each with very different cultural contexts.
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permalink #105 of 234: (fom) Mon 27 May 02 11:57
permalink #105 of 234: (fom) Mon 27 May 02 11:57
(When I say clockwise, I mean appearing to rotate in a clockwise direction, with the right angles rather than the arms "pointing" clockwise, and the arms trailing. So I think mitsu and I are saying the same thing but using opposite terminology.)
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permalink #106 of 234: David A. Mason (mntnwolf) Mon 27 May 02 18:38
permalink #106 of 234: David A. Mason (mntnwolf) Mon 27 May 02 18:38
right... the one used in Korea for Buddhism is always: ______ . I I _____I_____I I I I I______ So we're agreeing that this is turning "clockwise", with the arms trailing behind giving the sense of motion? Cross + Wheel combined. Resembles a spiral and a spiral-armed galaxy, too.
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permalink #107 of 234: (fom) Mon 27 May 02 18:53
permalink #107 of 234: (fom) Mon 27 May 02 18:53
Also resembles the Basque cross (the Laburru? I think it's called) which is really ancient, probably older than the Vedas. (It's the same symbol, only with curved paisley-shaped arms instead of angular ones.)
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permalink #108 of 234: newly refurbished co-host (lara) Mon 27 May 02 20:24
permalink #108 of 234: newly refurbished co-host (lara) Mon 27 May 02 20:24
David, I haven't finished reading "Spirit of the Mountains" yet, and so this post is more of a comment than a question. I just wanted to say how moving I've found it to discover, through this very beautiful book, that there is such a strong and intact tradition of mountain worship in Korea. I've always had a bit of a thing for mountains, and have visited several sacred mountains in various parts of the world -- Tai Shan in China, Uluru (Ayers Rock) in Australia, the Himalaya, and others, and of course, our local beauty, Mt. Tamalpais. Of course, people the world over have attributed spiritual characteristics to mountains, and individual personalities, but it's astonishing to come across the quality of art and the depth and intricacy of the folklore in the shamanic tradition of Korea, about which I was entirely ignorant before reading your book. Thank you so much for all your dedication and effort in gathering together all this information. You've done a fantastic job.
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permalink #109 of 234: Gerry Feeney (gerry) Mon 27 May 02 20:50
permalink #109 of 234: Gerry Feeney (gerry) Mon 27 May 02 20:50
David, how is the presence of a mountain spirit perceived among San-shin devotees? I mean, suppose I'm a guy living in a village at the base of one of these mountains in Korea. Do I have a sense that the San-shin in omnipresent? Might I have some little token or shrine in my bedroom? Or is it only when I actually go up into the mountains that I consider myself to be in San-shin's domain? Am I thinking about the spirit when I'm not on the mountain? Am I concerned with appeasing it or not displeasing it when I'm not on the mountain?
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permalink #110 of 234: David A. Mason (mntnwolf) Tue 28 May 02 04:11
permalink #110 of 234: David A. Mason (mntnwolf) Tue 28 May 02 04:11
Thanks much for your comments, (lara). Yes, it was a moving "find" for me, too -- still is. > Tai Shan in China You've been there? y'know, that's one of my biggest frustrations. The holiest mtn in China, the only one with a "personified" spirit (who is one of the 'Ten Judge-Kings of Hell' in NE-Asian Buddhism, strangely) -- and not even very far from me -- and i've never been there! I tried *3 times* from 1983 - 98, but weather/logistics/ injury prevented it each time. Someday... I used to have a China-travel-partner who speaks reads writes Chinese well -- invaluable -- but no longer do.
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permalink #111 of 234: David A. Mason (mntnwolf) Tue 28 May 02 04:23
permalink #111 of 234: David A. Mason (mntnwolf) Tue 28 May 02 04:23
> #109 of 110: Gerry Feeney (gerry) Mon 27 May '02 > David, how is the presence of a mountain spirit perceived among > San-shin devotees? Mostly just as an unseen "spiritual presence", or in a dream or trance-vision. > I mean, suppose I'm a guy living in a village at the base of one > of these mountains in Korea. Do I have a sense that the San-shin > in omnipresent? Living somewhere "up there" in the crags. Doesn't reveal itself easily, and it's often bad news if it does. > Might I have some little token or shrine in my bedroom? No, just the shrine up behind the village. > Or is it only when I actually go up into the mountains that I > consider myself to be in San-shin's domain? Mostly right. > Am I thinking about the spirit when I'm not on the mountain? No, unless planning a ritual, i guess. > Am I concerned with appeasing it or not displeasing it when I'm > not on the mountain? Prolly not. Just when you're in his domain -- the upper wilderness. It seems that if villagers of the past experienced a tiger attack while tending their fields or cutting wood, etc -- incl a tiger carrying off a child -- they considered that a punishment from the San-shin for some transgression (like cutting a sacred tree, or...). Other Bad Fortune -- say, breaking a bone in your home or field, or having your crop eaten by pests -- might be attributed by the local shaman to San-shin's anger, or might be laid on another spirit.
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permalink #112 of 234: Lara Owen (lara) Tue 28 May 02 09:53
permalink #112 of 234: Lara Owen (lara) Tue 28 May 02 09:53
Re Taishan -- yes, I went there in 1983, while I was training in Chinese medicine in Beijing. Four of us hiked to the top and were the only Westerners among the thousands of people making the trek. We stayed the night and ventured out at dawn, awoken by a loud gong, to sit at the side of the ridge and watch the sun come up over the vasy valley before us. Then we hiked back down the mountain. One of the highlights of my life. Very very special, for many reasons.
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David Mason: Spirit of the Mountains
permalink #113 of 234: Gerry Feeney (gerry) Tue 28 May 02 19:22
permalink #113 of 234: Gerry Feeney (gerry) Tue 28 May 02 19:22
That sounds like w onderful experience, Lara. I envy you that.
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permalink #114 of 234: Gerry Feeney (gerry) Tue 28 May 02 19:36
permalink #114 of 234: Gerry Feeney (gerry) Tue 28 May 02 19:36
> ... they considered that a punishment from the > San-shin for some transgression (like cutting a > sacred tree, or...) David, I remember in your book you mentioned something about not breaking the San-shin's taboos, and there was a note/reference number there. I was too lazy to follow up the reference. Can you list some examples of what these are, in addition to cutting a sacred tree? Also, how is a sacred tree identified? Are there regarded to be varying levels of sanctity with a mountain's objects (say, rocks and streams) and flora & fauna? I gather that all living things on a mountain are considered the "property" of the San-shin.
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permalink #115 of 234: David A. Mason (mntnwolf) Tue 28 May 02 20:06
permalink #115 of 234: David A. Mason (mntnwolf) Tue 28 May 02 20:06
Yes, i guess they are. There is no written doctrine/guide to determining the sacredness of trees, rocks, streams, waterfalls -- or mountains themselves -- so it's up to the locals & practitioners. As far as i can tell in my years of observations, it has a lot to do with the obvious factors -- size, prominence, uniqueness. Taboos... i'm not an expert on that... but they range from practical stuff like not fouling (i.e. shitting in) the stream that runs down to your village, to more psychological dictums like not having "impure thoughts" or cursing out loud. When i lived in a hermit-farmhouse on "Triple Crags Mountain" in 1998, i knew that the fall San-shin ritual was coming soon (i had attended the one in the spring, took photos), so one day i walked the 10 minutes back behind my house into the forest to the Village Shrine at the mouth of a rocky gorge (prominent pine tree above) (see opening pages of my book). I cleaned up its area -- carried out one huge garbage-bag full of old bottles & cans & paper & crap. Thought i was doing something good, told an old farmer nearby that i'd done so. He was horrified. Turned out that my action broke a taboo about not touching the shrine until the auspicious day of the ritual! They had to delay the rite until the next auspicious day. They were pissed at me, didn't invite me when they held it. Oh, well.... at least a tiger didn't attack me.
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permalink #116 of 234: David A. Mason (mntnwolf) Tue 28 May 02 20:24
permalink #116 of 234: David A. Mason (mntnwolf) Tue 28 May 02 20:24
> #112 of 115: Lara Owen (lara) Tue 28 May Great experience you had on Tai-shan, lara -- I also went to China in 1983, and Geez, there weren't many foreigners there at all then! And so few who could speak English, and so very little information in English... it was a damn rough trip. I went all around a big loop, with a backpack, riding the trains for 6 weeks... back then there were only 29 cities "open" for foreigners! I had several un- pleasant encounters with the police... missed Tai-shan THAT time because of heavy rains. I've done the hike-to-the-peak-and-sleep-over-in-the-temple-watch- the-sunrise thang at four other Chinese mountains --- Emei-shan, Jizu-shan and Wu-tai-shan (sacred to Buddhists) and Wei-bao-shan (Daoist). Hardship, but very special indeed. Too much fog at Hwang-shan (Daoist) and Puto-shan (Buddhist), heavy rains at Jihua- shan (Buddhist)... ya take yer chances, and ya never know. A notable difference between China and Korea -- the Chinese build those temples right on the peak of the holy mountain (and plenty more on the slopes & in the valley). Koreans NEVER do that. Pretty close sometimes (100 meters from the peak), but not on it. Greater respectfor / fear of the San-shin perhaps? Or just because there's rarely a spring of water that high up...?
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permalink #117 of 234: Gerald Feene (gerry) Tue 28 May 02 20:32
permalink #117 of 234: Gerald Feene (gerry) Tue 28 May 02 20:32
<scribbled by gerry Tue 28 May 02 20:34>
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permalink #118 of 234: Gerry Feeney (gerry) Tue 28 May 02 20:34
permalink #118 of 234: Gerry Feeney (gerry) Tue 28 May 02 20:34
Wow, David! What a hard lesson to learn! I suppose that's one of those things that can be categorized as culture clash? Or is it? How likely or unlikely is it that a Korean city-slicker from Seoul could make the same mistake? I guess my question really is, would that particular problem be a matter of knowing about San-shin, or knowing about Korean culture in general? There's nothing in my own experience that directly relates to that. But living in Mexico in my teens and early 20's, I learned an awful lot about subtle nuances of the culture - stuff that nobody ever explains to you, even when you're fluent in Spanish. Indeed, it's precisely *because* one attains fluency in Spanish that the locals take it for granted that you also acquired those "unwritten laws" along with proficiency in the language - thus they don't cut you the same slack that they would to a bloke who's obviously struggling with the language - he's a _foreignor_ and doesn't know better. I learned a lot of stuff the *hard way* like that - many tedious, awkward, embarassing moments in social situations where I thought I was doing the right thing and ended up having people pissed off at me for reasons about which I could not even begin to guess.
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permalink #119 of 234: David A. Mason (mntnwolf) Tue 28 May 02 21:03
permalink #119 of 234: David A. Mason (mntnwolf) Tue 28 May 02 21:03
Yup, that has happened to me a lot... :-( I was lucky to have a Korean wife for 13 years who was sensitive to cross-cultural stuff and thus explain to me, drop hints -- sometimes even warn in advance. > ... would that particular problem be a matter of knowing about > San-shin, or knowing about Korean culture in general? Possibly more general. Koreans don't interfere in anything that is not their direct business -- except radical-activist-college-student sorts, who are considered over-idealistic. If they do have an idea to do something unusual, there're many rounds of consultations first. It takes an American to, without talking with anyone senior before- hand, go out to "do something good". Both good and bad points of *our* culture, and of theirs...
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permalink #120 of 234: Roger Windsor (jonl) Wed 29 May 02 07:16
permalink #120 of 234: Roger Windsor (jonl) Wed 29 May 02 07:16
Email from Roger Windsor: San-shin is of historical interest, and important to those who continue to follow the shamanic beliefs, but do you see San-shin playing any role in the future of Korea, or will it merely fade away along with other traditional practices as modern culture continues to flood Asia and other parts of the world? What role could, or should, it play on the national scene and in the individual lives of Koreans? Thanks, Roger Windsor
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permalink #121 of 234: Jim Fisher (fishjim) Wed 29 May 02 10:09
permalink #121 of 234: Jim Fisher (fishjim) Wed 29 May 02 10:09
Thanks so much for the geology posts in #78 and #79, David -- that's exactly what I was looking for. "Tao Peak" Mountain is indeed an awesome formation!
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permalink #122 of 234: Pseud Impaired (mitsu) Wed 29 May 02 11:09
permalink #122 of 234: Pseud Impaired (mitsu) Wed 29 May 02 11:09
>there're many rounds of consultations first This is also a very Japanese cultural trait. It strikes me (and has often occurred to me) that, despite the Koreans deep hatred/fear of Japanese, and despite the traditional disdain Japanese have held for Koreans (both of these are feelings that are, thankfully, waning --- in fact, I've read that in recent years in Japan, there has been an upswell in the fashionability of Koreans --- I think this was partly spurred on by internal criticism as well as foreign pressure) --- but despite the long-held, let's call it tension, between the two countries, the two actually share quite a few cultural qualities. This is perhaps hardly surprising as both countries are not only physically proximate but also have a similar geography --- both are largely mountainous, etc. And of course Japan also has a long tradition of reverence for mountains and mountain gods (or kami), along with the innumerable other Shinto nature gods associated with streams and other natural phenomena, though they don't really have something akin to San-shin with its varied and rich iconography and artistic history. I remember when Koreans first began to move to Los Angeles (my home town) in large numbers, quite a few settled in Gardena, which is the largest Japanese-American community on the mainland (and where I grew up). It seemed natural to me at the time, but also a bit curious, given the hostility Koreans traditionally feel for Japanese. Yet still, more familiar than Americans? When some Koreans opened a fashion shop next door to my parents' business, we went over to welcome them to the neighborhood, and they seemed kind of surprised or something --- I'm not sure if that was Korean reserve or if they were surprised that Japanese would welcome them. I'm sure one could write volumes on the tortured relationship between the two nations, but I am curious if you have noticed attitudes in Korea towards Japanese changing or shifting --- is there a recognition of what seems to me to be this similarity (though I am sure many Koreans wouldn't want to acknowledge that! as well as Japanese...)? Why do you think Koreans would feel more comfortable moving into a Japanese neighborhood, despite the long-running conflicts between the two countries?
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permalink #123 of 234: Pseud Impaired (mitsu) Wed 29 May 02 11:13
permalink #123 of 234: Pseud Impaired (mitsu) Wed 29 May 02 11:13
(I am still thinking about the Bateson question and I will post more on that later).
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permalink #124 of 234: David A. Mason (mntnwolf) Wed 29 May 02 19:42
permalink #124 of 234: David A. Mason (mntnwolf) Wed 29 May 02 19:42
Yesterday, i was the invited guest-speaker of the Seong-cheon Mun- hwa Hoe-dan [Sage-stream Cultural Foundation/Institute]. It's run by a 92-year-old former president of Korea's top university, a well- known calligrapher and nationalist educator with pen-name "Seong- cheon". Very healthy, spry & alert for 92... Keeps a old brick on his desk encased in plastic -- it's from the old West Gate Prison where he was held and tortured on-&-off 1935-45... a Christian, but displays an excellent collection of small Buddhist statues from all over Asia. Anyway, he runs this adult-education institute where he and some famous profs lecture on the greatest classics of Korea, Asia and the world -- Toegye, I Ching, Plato, Wonhyo, Mencius, Kant, etc. Yesterday, he had me in there to speak on "The Place of San-shin in Korea's Traditions". 100 or so students. I talked for 90 min incl showing 25 slides; a college-boy stood next to me and translated each sentence into Korean (i'm just not nearly good enuff in K to do a lecture), tho i used a lot of Korean vocabulary of course. I always do these talks without text or notes, just make an outline in my mind and talk spontaneously... works out well. I surveyed the historical stuff and San-shin's connections to other religions, as in the book. But i spent the last 30 min on the ideas in my Chap 4 -- the present and future of San-shin in Korea and the world. As if answering what was asked in #120 above. This is pretty controversial stuff for Koreans to hear -- they perked up & stirred, looked amazed, whispered to each other, nodded, smiled. Applause was heavy when i finished (on time!). At the end was question-time, and the usual happened -- a retired gentleman jumped up and launched into a speech, condemning me and my ideas from a Protestant point of view -- "why are you promoting old superstitions, which will only mislead people? What you speak of is a *dying* culture, it has no place in modern Korea, but you don't seem to know that. Shamanism is dangerous to us, it's 'against God'. It's shameful to expose these superstitions to foreigners" and etc. Typical. Embarassing. I was thankful that ol' "Sage Stream" himself stepped in and gently shut the guy down. He didn't seem to quite agree with me, but respected the quality of my ideas and the photos i had to back them up. Most of the audience sided with me, as far as they sided at all. Afterwards, i talked with "Sage Stream" in his office, and gave him a copy of my book, he was pleased. He gave me a porcelain brush- holder-pot with his calligraphy on it, I was pleased. The secretary slipped me a $170 honorarium, and i headed back to my Tourism office by subway. My bosses don't like me taking time off for this kind of thing, were grudging about it (we're real busy these days, with the World Cup Finals opening in Seoul TOMORROW). Just another day in my mission ;-)
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permalink #125 of 234: David A. Mason (mntnwolf) Wed 29 May 02 19:46
permalink #125 of 234: David A. Mason (mntnwolf) Wed 29 May 02 19:46
And a big press-conference this afternoon, for all the international media covering the non-soccer sides of the World Cup festival... I hafta play MC, give little intro-speeches. So i can't answer the above posts now; will get to them as soon as. As Linda Richman said "Talk amongst yourselves" :-)
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