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permalink #201 of 376: Linda Castellani (castle) Sun 23 Jun 02 18:02
permalink #201 of 376: Linda Castellani (castle) Sun 23 Jun 02 18:02
E-mail from Ernie Osborne: "diga" wrote... >I also thought that Nash's modest, unadorned performance of "Half Your >Angels" on solo electric piano -- with Croz singing harmony -- was THE >emotional heavyweight moment of the last CSNY show I saw. Not just >because it's a three-kleenex weeper written for Oklahoma City that now >seems all too relevant to 9/11. But because it's a fucking beautiful >melody, and putting Nash and Croz together in a completely uncluttered >setting, harmonizing a gorgeous, dark theme, is THE stuff for me. Not for me--this time around for that song, anyway. See, I know someone well whose father was killed in the Oklahoma City bombing, and it wasn't appreciated the song was conveniently, it seemed, retreaded for the 9/11 survivors--it seemd lazy to do such a thing. Anyway, the song didn't catch on the first time, and didn't make much of a mark second time around either. Reality speaking, Ernie
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permalink #202 of 376: David A. Mason (mntnwolf) Sun 23 Jun 02 19:02
permalink #202 of 376: David A. Mason (mntnwolf) Sun 23 Jun 02 19:02
Well, the performance of it on Jay Leno was the first time *i* ever heard it... probably true for much of the world. > In the last moments of "Last Dance," the last track on Young's > 1973 "Time Fades Away" live album, a rough and ragged collection > of then new Young songs, Nash shrieks, 'Last DANCE!" with such > the-end-of-the-world ferocity; it's like a rock and roll > exclamation point turned upside down. Yes! complete agreement... a perfecly-done punctuation on a great- but-obscure raw Rock'n'Roll treasure! But, all these years i have been sure that it was *Croz* who roared that... hmmmmm, this will require a re-listen on the good speakers at home.
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permalink #203 of 376: Dave Zimmer (zimmerdave) Sun 23 Jun 02 19:13
permalink #203 of 376: Dave Zimmer (zimmerdave) Sun 23 Jun 02 19:13
Ernie O. wrote ... >Anyway, the song didn't catch on the first time, and didn't make much of a mark second time around either. Didn't catch on? You mean it wasn't a hit or didn't move anyone? I know that "Half Your Angels" moved me plenty when I first heard it in 1997, and it moved me again in 2002. I respectfully understand your feelings. But I don't think Nash "conveniently retreaded" the song. Bruce Springsteen wrote "My City In Ruins" for Asbury Park in New Jersey, but the spirit of the song applied to 9/11, so he sang it for the 9/11 telethon and put it on his new album, The Rising (die out next month). About the C&N harmony album ... Mary E. wrote >Sounds just fabulous! What's keeping it from being released? Only Croz or Nash know the answer to that question ... >The Frozen Noses ... Lenny, I believe the Frozen Noses demo was "49 Reasons (Bye Byes)" and "Long Time Gone," recorded by Stills and Crosby without Nash. Those other songs you mention were done by Croz on his own (with some help from others).
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permalink #204 of 376: Dave Zimmer (zimmerdave) Sun 23 Jun 02 19:15
permalink #204 of 376: Dave Zimmer (zimmerdave) Sun 23 Jun 02 19:15
Bon soir, friends ... thanks ... I will catch up with the conversations tomorrow ...
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permalink #205 of 376: Steve Silberman (digaman) Sun 23 Jun 02 20:11
permalink #205 of 376: Steve Silberman (digaman) Sun 23 Jun 02 20:11
I don't recall anyone complaining when Jerry Garcia sang the line, "Sweet William he is dead," from the old British ballad "Peggy-O," at the first Dead show after Bill Graham's death, looking directly at one of Graham's sons, standing offstage. Isn't a measure of music's greatness that its relevance keeps being restored by events in the changing world? That's what great songs are FOR. I've heard this complaint about "Half Your Angels" rather a lot. What, is Graham supposed to go write a new custom song every time some maniac destroys a building?
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permalink #206 of 376: Steve Silberman (digaman) Sun 23 Jun 02 20:15
permalink #206 of 376: Steve Silberman (digaman) Sun 23 Jun 02 20:15
I mean, I don't mean to sound harsh, or anything. It's just that it seems like *every time* I mention that song, somebody says something along the lines of the "retreading" thing. It indicates to me a profound misunderstanding of the uses of music -- particularly folk song -- in easing the woes of the human heart.
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permalink #207 of 376: Buzz Person (thebuzzzz) Sun 23 Jun 02 20:32
permalink #207 of 376: Buzz Person (thebuzzzz) Sun 23 Jun 02 20:32
I certainly agree with you Steve... Half Your Angels fit perfectly at the time... and it was from the hearts of those guys who sang it! Who gives a rats ass if it ever was sung... In looking around the CSNY shows I attended I felt that the moment was perfect when they did Half Your Angels... especially in the two shows at Madison Square Garden, which by the way were the two shows that really had the most energy from both sides of the stage.. I saw it at the Greek in LA 5 nights after 9/11 and I can tell you that you could almost hear a pin drop when it was over...
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permalink #208 of 376: Buzz Person (thebuzzzz) Sun 23 Jun 02 20:34
permalink #208 of 376: Buzz Person (thebuzzzz) Sun 23 Jun 02 20:34
OOps!!! Should have been "ever was sung before"....
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permalink #209 of 376: David Gans (tnf) Sun 23 Jun 02 23:44
permalink #209 of 376: David Gans (tnf) Sun 23 Jun 02 23:44
What Steve said. Didn't Springsteen's song about Asbury Park get "repurposed" after 9/11?
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permalink #210 of 376: David A. Mason (mntnwolf) Mon 24 Jun 02 00:07
permalink #210 of 376: David A. Mason (mntnwolf) Mon 24 Jun 02 00:07
Really; how many times have "Blowing In the Wind" and "The Times They Are A-Changin'" been re-used for a new situation or era by now? quite appropriate to do so, in my opinion.
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permalink #211 of 376: Dave Zimmer (zimmerdave) Mon 24 Jun 02 05:33
permalink #211 of 376: Dave Zimmer (zimmerdave) Mon 24 Jun 02 05:33
>Isn't a measure of music's greatness that its relevance keeps being restored by events in the changing world? >That's what great songs are FOR. Exactly, Steve ... As you, Buzz, David Gans and David Mason remind, the mark of a timeless song is its ability to apply to multiple events, people and eras. The other recent example that Gans and I mentioned, Springsteen's "My City of Ruins," may have been written for Asbury Park, but the message and emotional framework applied perfectly to post-9/11 New York as well. I don't remember anyone accusing Springsteen of "conveniently retreading" his song last fall. To my ears, "Half Your Angels" has already earned its stripes as a timeless song. And the unfortunate reality of our times is that future tragedies will probably occur that will further enhance its ability to capture the aftermath of destruction and loss.
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permalink #212 of 376: look, it's all right there in front of you... (cmf) Mon 24 Jun 02 06:37
permalink #212 of 376: look, it's all right there in front of you... (cmf) Mon 24 Jun 02 06:37
I wasn't going to post on this "Half Your Angels" issue, not wanting to be in the minority, but then that would be kind of cowardly, wouldn't it? I'm one of those that it just never sat well with. And I've wondered all along how it would have felt to those who lost somebody in Oklahoma. Interesting to have had Ernie share on that aspect of it. I think it's a beautiful song. And I think anybody who knows a single thing about Graham Nash knows there's not a chance in hell the song was offered as anything other than a sincere tribute to the victims of BOTH tragedies. And I think the word "retread" is a poor one. To me that somehow has the connotation that it was "pulled out of the closet" for some financial or personal gain. Clearly neither could be further from the truth. With all that said, it doesn't change the fact that four out of the five times I saw the song performed I couldn't help but feel funny about it. And I stress the word feel. It was never so much an opinion as a strange feeling in my stomach. I'm not even saying I'm right. I'm merely sharing the response I felt at the time. And I just couldn't help thinking, man, what if I had somebody who'd died in Oklahoma? I have a great deal of respect for both Mr. Silberman and Gans. And I would offer that if they're getting as many people as they suggest bringing up the "retread" issue, perhaps there's something to it? As for other songs being written for one event and then rededicated to another, I don't have a definitive answer to that. I think some of it might have been the timing. I'm no music historian, but it just seems that Oklahoma and the Twin Towers were closer together than some of the other songs and their events (writing and re-dedication). The other thing might have been the nature of the events. Graham writes a song for a building bombing, and then within about four years the song is rededicated to another building bombing. And it may also have something to do with the fact that the band tied to two events together themselves when introducing the song. In all but one of the performances I saw, it was announced as a song originally written for Oklahoma. In Grand Rapids Michigan, the intro was much more simple. Graham just said..."Here's a song for the victims of New York..." or something to that effect. That was the time the song hit me deepest. An important note. I'm not trying to persuade anybody, so I'm really not looking for a debate. Just trying to share from the other side.
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permalink #213 of 376: Buzz Person (thebuzzzz) Mon 24 Jun 02 07:19
permalink #213 of 376: Buzz Person (thebuzzzz) Mon 24 Jun 02 07:19
I saw it performed about several times, 10 I think, during the csny tour... crosby and/or Nash usually said something to the effect "this was written right after the Oklahoma City tragedy, but somehow it seems appropriate now". They certainly didn't hide the fact that it was generated as result of another tragedy.
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permalink #214 of 376: Steve Silberman (digaman) Mon 24 Jun 02 07:40
permalink #214 of 376: Steve Silberman (digaman) Mon 24 Jun 02 07:40
Well, cmf, one of my best friends, a true CSNY scholar and friend of Graham's, utterly loathes the song. He finds it sentimental, and it has nothing to do with the repurposing issue. Frankly, I haven't deconstructed the lyrics on paper to see if they strike me as overly sentimental or not. For me, it's the melody, which I feel is one of the most profoundly sad, and subtly emotionally shaded, melodies that Graham has written in a while (though I also like "House of Broken Dreams" on the overproduced hot dog album.) And when I see them sing it. what lyrics I do "get" arrive at exactly the right time in the song.
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permalink #215 of 376: look, it's all right there in front of you... (cmf) Mon 24 Jun 02 07:51
permalink #215 of 376: look, it's all right there in front of you... (cmf) Mon 24 Jun 02 07:51
Buzz -- I must not have communicated well on that point. You're exactly correct. In fact there's only the one occasion I'm aware of (Grand Rapids) that they "didn't" announce it that way. What I was trying to say was that it just felt a lot better to me when they DIDN't connect the events.
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permalink #216 of 376: Buzz Person (thebuzzzz) Mon 24 Jun 02 08:04
permalink #216 of 376: Buzz Person (thebuzzzz) Mon 24 Jun 02 08:04
Dave, this has been fun and very informative.. thank you very much.. I am leaving this morning for Europe and will be having dinner with the Italian contingient of CSN fans next Monday night in Rome so this is my last post... thanks again...
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permalink #217 of 376: Dave Zimmer (zimmerdave) Mon 24 Jun 02 08:10
permalink #217 of 376: Dave Zimmer (zimmerdave) Mon 24 Jun 02 08:10
Buzz, thank YOU for participating ... travel safely ...
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permalink #218 of 376: David Gans (tnf) Mon 24 Jun 02 11:19
permalink #218 of 376: David Gans (tnf) Mon 24 Jun 02 11:19
> I have a great deal of respect for both Mr. Silberman and Gans. And I would > offer that if they're getting as many people as they suggest bringing up > the "retread" issue, perhaps there's something to it? It hasn't come up anywhere but here, as far as I know. Doesn't make the point less worthy of discussion, but it's not exactly a topic of conversation in my travels.
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permalink #219 of 376: Linda Castellani (castle) Mon 24 Jun 02 11:40
permalink #219 of 376: Linda Castellani (castle) Mon 24 Jun 02 11:40
E-mail from Bill Evans: Dave: I'm heading out of town too for my son's high school baseball tournament (he has a tryout with the Atlanta Braves Wednesday) and just wanted to thank you so much for doing this. I have really enjoyed your stories and behind the scenes imput as well as the input from everyone else. Facinating stuff. I hope you get that Joni project as I would love to read that one. Thanks amigo for taking the time to do this interview. It was great! Bill Evans
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permalink #220 of 376: Steve Silberman (digaman) Mon 24 Jun 02 11:45
permalink #220 of 376: Steve Silberman (digaman) Mon 24 Jun 02 11:45
It is in mine, because I'm a fanatic. I've heard that comment after several shows, which is why I was touchy about it. About all those announcements before the song: One of my LEAST favorite things about CSN shows in general is that there are several canned "schticks" that get recycled, show after show, tour after tour, year after year. Nash can get a little over the top, such as when he used to yell "That was Stephen Stills, ladies and gentlemen!" after Stills executed a good turn in "Suite: JBE." I mean, yes, that was Stephen Stills, but imagine how you would feel if there was someone standing at the museum shouting, "That was Rembrandt, ladies and gentlemen!" Yes, I know. A rock and roll show is not a damn museum. Cheerleading like that probably does make a significant portion of the crowd feel that they are at a special, unique event, even if it's just a mediocre show on the 20th stop of the 15th tour. But that's one thing I thought that CSNY never GOT about touring the way the Dead, Phish, etc. did -- that there might be a bunch of people in the crowd following them around, and that they should just let it rip, change setlists, change orchestrations, and at least, change the jokes! I always have felt that CSN was blowing off the possibility of garnering a serious touring audience by being unwilling to be THAT improvisational, although I've always admired the fact that <croz>, say, will subtly change his fingerpicking pattern on even an old warhorse like "Guinnevere" from night to night. What do you think, Dave?
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permalink #221 of 376: Steve Silberman (digaman) Mon 24 Jun 02 11:46
permalink #221 of 376: Steve Silberman (digaman) Mon 24 Jun 02 11:46
Sorry, slipped by <castle>.
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permalink #222 of 376: look, it's all right there in front of you... (cmf) Mon 24 Jun 02 11:47
permalink #222 of 376: look, it's all right there in front of you... (cmf) Mon 24 Jun 02 11:47
My apologies David. I must have lumped you in with something Diga wrote about lot's of people calling it retread. Personally I'm a little thrown by the recent announcement that Pevar and Raymond will be accompanying Graham Nash on his new album tour. Instead of CPR we'll have NPR (national public radio?)? I mean good for Nash and Pevar and Raymond... but as a, well, as a fan (God I hate that word) of Msgr. Crosby it leaves me wondering... where exactly does that leave him? I mean if the P and R are touring, that certainly doesn't leave much room for CPR to be either touring or recording...
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permalink #223 of 376: Steve Silberman (digaman) Mon 24 Jun 02 11:51
permalink #223 of 376: Steve Silberman (digaman) Mon 24 Jun 02 11:51
As far as I understand it, CPR can't *afford* to tour that much. Which is sad, and which is why it's so important to spread the word.
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permalink #224 of 376: Steve Silberman (digaman) Mon 24 Jun 02 11:55
permalink #224 of 376: Steve Silberman (digaman) Mon 24 Jun 02 11:55
On that "retread" subject again, I wonder why no one ever complains about CSNY or CPR playing "Ohio," and why it always seems relevant, though the students at Kent State died long ago, and the line "Nixon's coming" has as much relevance to the kids who see them now as "Hoover coming" would have had to the '60s kids? Perhaps we're more comfortable with anger as an expression of outrage in rock and roll than we are with something more quiet and tender.
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permalink #225 of 376: (fom) Mon 24 Jun 02 12:01
permalink #225 of 376: (fom) Mon 24 Jun 02 12:01
I have a couple of questions: What is the allure of the huge arena tour scale? Why don't acts like this play smaller venues? It is just considered beneath them? also, is there a generic term for the kind of harmony CSN do?
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