inkwell.vue.214
:
Martin Torgoff: "Can't Find My Way Home"
permalink #101 of 160: Justin Hager (cubistpoet) Sun 30 May 04 21:29
permalink #101 of 160: Justin Hager (cubistpoet) Sun 30 May 04 21:29
One of my primary facinations in life, incidentally, right now is how the death of the Beat culture (and perhaps of idealism, liberalism, and a bunch of other nice, worthwile -isms) came about? Does your book deal with this subject? If so, I may very well have to put it to the top of my reading list. Not to say that I wouldn't like to read it anyway, but you know... poor college student syndrome.
inkwell.vue.214
:
Martin Torgoff: "Can't Find My Way Home"
permalink #102 of 160: David Gans (tnf) Sun 30 May 04 23:06
permalink #102 of 160: David Gans (tnf) Sun 30 May 04 23:06
I first smoked pot when I was 12 or 13. Turned on by my older brother, natch. I have never beeen a heavy smoker -- way too ambitious, busy and inspired to lose that much time to wool-gathering or partying. But then, I have rarely used drugs for partying; I don't much care for alcohol, and the psychedelics (of which I consider pot to be the mildest) have been great tools for me. I can't read when I'm high, but I can really bond with my in- strument and delve into creative impulses: for me, pot is great for im- provisational situations and nonverbal taking-things-in. Acid is strong medicine, and it scared the shit out of me when I was younger and less whole; I used it sparingly as I got older, always finding some spiritual value in it and occasionally gaining some really important insight. I used too much cocaine and speed in my 20s, and I regret the time and money I wasted on those spiritually empty pursuits. It fucking pisses me off that psychedelics are illegal. They can be useful.
inkwell.vue.214
:
Martin Torgoff: "Can't Find My Way Home"
permalink #103 of 160: Martin Torgoff (martintorgoff) Mon 31 May 04 05:42
permalink #103 of 160: Martin Torgoff (martintorgoff) Mon 31 May 04 05:42
Justin, your points are well taken about weed being A Mirror That Magnifies: it's generally true that those with creative inclinations can become more turned on to this aspect of themselves, just as those with sluggish amotivatinal tendencies can easily become more slug-like than ever. But the thing about mind-altering substances that makes them so interesting is that for every time-honored cardinal observation about them, counter trends and patterns and exceptions abound. Myself, I was coming out of several adolescent bags by the time I encountered it: first as a fuck-up running with the tough juicer kids in town (we called them "greasers" in that middle class Long Island teen culture of the early to mid-60s, and being in the smart class and from a nice Jewish family, that made me bad); and then, when I was tired of that scene, the jocks (guys with varsity jackets and letters on their sweaters who were always trying to feel up the pretty cheerleaders). Both were dead-end scenes for me, so by the time I crossed the threshold into Stonesville on that fateful night in '68, I was very hungry for something new and weed was the perfet thing. At the time there were maybe a few other kids in the whole town who smoked it. We were like this strange little cult. I was an example of both the observation and the counter-observation. I was always an obsevor, a kid who felt somehow apart from things; weed pulled me deeply into myself, and opened up whole new worlds. I had always been interested in writing but within the year I went from writing for the local newspaper about high school sports to strange impressionistic poetry. Within a year I was playing a guitar and seriously taking photographs, and had decided that my destiny was to travel around the world, seeing all the places I'd always dreamed of seeing. I wanted to meet fascinating people, meet and sleep with beautiful girls, and make beautiful art. I decided all of this while seated on the stone bridge on East Island after school, stoned, watching the late afternoon sun glinting off the Long Island Sound. In essence, I dreamed it; I would eventually do all of these things and fulfill this destiny. Would I have gone in this direction had I not smoked pot? Who can ultiimately know but somehow I suspect not. I would also become an alcoholic and an addict. Would that have happened had I not smoked pot? Who can ultimately know but, again, I somehow suspect not. Of course, all of it was probably latent in my being or karma somewhere, but in retrospect I can see that the pot served as a powerful catalyst; I have it to thank for things good and bad. None of this is ever evident to an adolescent at the tme, of course. Real drug education would somehow address these issues and life experiences. Gans! How was Utah? Thank you for sharing aspects of your psycho-pharmacological resume. I concur strongly about cocaine being a "spiritually empty" pursuit. I like what Tom Robbins said about it in my book: "I felt like it put holes in my aura."
inkwell.vue.214
:
Martin Torgoff: "Can't Find My Way Home"
permalink #104 of 160: Gary Greenberg (gberg) Mon 31 May 04 06:00
permalink #104 of 160: Gary Greenberg (gberg) Mon 31 May 04 06:00
Think about how great it would have been to talk to someone who you could really trust about drugs, who you knew was interested in nothing but your safety and welfare. You'd listen to that person. A counseler, if you will, who could teach you to respect their powers to enhance, distort, and damage, and how to recognize it. I agree that this sounds like a good idea. As it happens, though, I 've been in pretty much that situation--counseling adolescents about drugs. I've been fired by lots of parents because I'vefailed to take a zero-tolerance approach, and I strongly discourage parents from sending me their kids if what they're mostly interested in is gettgin a clean piss test out of them. (Actually, I rarely see adolescentswithout their families anymore, but that's a different story.) But even though I make it clear to the kids that I'm on their side, that the issue here is notdrugs but responsibility and safety and respect for self and others (concepts they've been familiarized with far more than my generation ever was, drilled inot themnot only by DARE but by all sorts of socialization curricula) and here's what happens if you keep doing this and all that I'm your buddy jive, they still fuck up. They get whacked out or repeatedly busted or expelled or whatever. Now maybe I should blame this on all that has come before me, all the propaganda and indoctrination and intimidation that makes it hard to talk honestly and listen openly. Or take it on myself as a clinical skill Ijust don't have. But I think that in addition to the rough typology that Martin laid out earlier--some kids will be wiser or luckier or smarter or more afraid than others--there's also the way that drugs are embedded in the generational wars. It's the job of kids not to listen to grownups, or at least no to let he grownups know they are listening. And it's their job to put our norms back in our faces--whether it's about how low on your hips you wear your pants or whether you take drugs. It could be, then, that the Partnership is correct when they say that Parents are the AntiDrug--that the best thing we could do is be open about our drug use in a society that has carved out a place for drug use. Which ours has not, not even with respect to alcohol. But I do think that the significance of the kid issue is overstated. Not only is it a pretext for enforcing a "culture of abstinence," it also assumes that there is somethign rational behind the drug war. Which I do not believe.
inkwell.vue.214
:
Martin Torgoff: "Can't Find My Way Home"
permalink #105 of 160: Martin Torgoff (martintorgoff) Mon 31 May 04 06:15
permalink #105 of 160: Martin Torgoff (martintorgoff) Mon 31 May 04 06:15
Gary, points well taken about teen rebellion. And I do think that the issue of kids has always been used to manipulate fears about drugs and sanction the drug war (think of one of the first slogans of the PFDFA: A Tiny Nation in Peril). But overstated from which perspective? The parents who are legitimately concerned, or the prohibitionist establishment that cyncically manipulates the concern?
inkwell.vue.214
:
Martin Torgoff: "Can't Find My Way Home"
permalink #106 of 160: Gary Greenberg (gberg) Mon 31 May 04 08:51
permalink #106 of 160: Gary Greenberg (gberg) Mon 31 May 04 08:51
I don't think it is possible to overstate the concern that parents have about drugs. I picked up a hitchhiker the other day. He was a junkie on his way to court for burglary. He'd "gotten right" earlier in the day-- to help him in court, he said--and then he planned to try to find a bed at the local detox. He was pathetic, of course, oscillating between his love of the drug and his hatred for his love of the drug. AT one point, just after he told me of his detox plans, he talked about how much better he felt after he'd ended three days of being straight with that morning's fix, and then he caught himself. "Listen to me," he said with chagrin. "There I was talking about getting straight, and listen to me now." Drug war politics aside, you couldn't help just feeling sorry for someone whose life had come to this. He was 23. I thought about our encounter for awhile, and one of the things never far from my consciousness was my son who is six. Will this happen to him? Will this vampire, or some other, bite him? It really does scare the living daylights out of me, that thought. It takes its place, of course, among all the others, all the nightmare scenarios that play out whenever he is near danger, like yesterday when he was walking the rail along our deck as if it were a balance beam and I looked up just in time to see him posed above the charcoal grill, one false step from disaster. And I have no idea what I will do when we get todrugs. As with so many other things, I think I am more at his mercy than I like to think. Maybe he'll be the kind of kid who stays away, or maybe he won't. Maybe the love of physical sensation that is at the center of his life, the exuberant wya in which he throws himself into the next challenge will lead him to graduate from spinning into dizziness to pot to alcohol to hallucinogens to opiates. Or maybe he'll play football and climb rocks--both of whic alternatives are fraught with potential disaster. I just hope I can respond with what he needs--whcih, I know, may well be something I am loathe to give, like huge amounts of control, lockdown even--and that I will bvy then be better at sorting out my anxiety from concern for him. that whatever atempts I make at cotrolling him will be about what is good for him and not about what puts me at ease, because those two conditoins don't always coincide. I thjink this is precisely what PDFA, ONDCP< DARE, and all the others who profess to be worried about kids have failed to realize. WE have anxieties about who we are, about what we have to keep at bay in order to live in the world we live in, about our ability to do this. Many of those anxisties have to do with control--of the natural world, of the internal world, of our delights and our agonies. Drug use, both as an idea nd as a reality, challenges those abilities, rouses those anxieties, and my suspicion is that this, far more than concern for kids, drives the ideology of abstinence and the drug war it serves. I've talked to a lot of drug warriors. They are sincerely worried about kids. But I think they are more worried about themselves.
inkwell.vue.214
:
Martin Torgoff: "Can't Find My Way Home"
permalink #107 of 160: David Gans (tnf) Mon 31 May 04 09:58
permalink #107 of 160: David Gans (tnf) Mon 31 May 04 09:58
Gary, I have been privileged to witness your journey as a parent since Joel came into your life. You've written brilliantly and movingly about your fears and joys, and today's posts here continue that tradition. You are living what Joseph Campbell calls "an authentic life," dealing with reality on its terms rather than shoving yourself and your boy into the procrustean bed of the American Illusion. No one can predict how it's going to go in this or any other phase, but you're telling the truth to yourself annd I trust you'll tell the truth to your son, too. In PIHKAL, the Shulgins write: "Our generation is the first, ever, to have made the search for self-awareness a crime, if it is done with the use of plants of chemical compounds as the means of opening the psychic doors." It seems to me that capital is a parasite that is killing its host -- or subsum- ing it, anyway. Over the course of my lifetime, the needs of corporations have grown to totally scuttle the rights and wishes of the individual. There is no rational basis whatsoever for the drug laws in this country, especially in relation to what remains legal. Follow the money, and we can see who benefits from the status quo. As in so many realms these days, the moralis- tic minority are a useful tool to those who profit from our misery. (Utah was great! It was the fourth of July of wildflowers out there! We hiked, we climbed, we floated on the Colorado; we ate some great meals and cooked over gas bottles; we spent some time with great friends; we did a little inner-space exploring, too; and we took hundreds of pictures. Rita and I are going to work on a photo-journal today, and I'll post the URL when it's up. My only regret about the trip was not being able to participate here.)
inkwell.vue.214
:
Martin Torgoff: "Can't Find My Way Home"
permalink #108 of 160: Sharon Lynne Fisher (slf) Mon 31 May 04 11:37
permalink #108 of 160: Sharon Lynne Fisher (slf) Mon 31 May 04 11:37
Utah is a beautiful place. And right next to Idaho!
inkwell.vue.214
:
Martin Torgoff: "Can't Find My Way Home"
permalink #109 of 160: David Gans (tnf) Mon 31 May 04 12:48
permalink #109 of 160: David Gans (tnf) Mon 31 May 04 12:48
(Sharon, I''m playng a gig in Moscow ID in late July -- how far is that from you?)
inkwell.vue.214
:
Martin Torgoff: "Can't Find My Way Home"
permalink #110 of 160: Justin Hager (cubistpoet) Mon 31 May 04 13:11
permalink #110 of 160: Justin Hager (cubistpoet) Mon 31 May 04 13:11
I can say that even as I am able to experience some of the more inspiring and positive aspects of marijauna I also know a good number of people who are the type that "never come down" and worse yet those who fall into a life of idle consuming, whether it be alcohol, weed, or an endless stream of movies and books. People who are emotionally dependent on "being fucked up" so to speak. People who can't really handle life sober. I'm glad that I was not hasty to pick up substance use. There was a period in my life when I was far less emotionally healthy and far less in contact with what I would refer to as reality, and I could easily see myself falling into the same kind of trap.
inkwell.vue.214
:
Martin Torgoff: "Can't Find My Way Home"
permalink #111 of 160: Sharon Lynne Fisher (slf) Mon 31 May 04 13:40
permalink #111 of 160: Sharon Lynne Fisher (slf) Mon 31 May 04 13:40
(Just about as far away from me as you can be and still be in Idaho. :-) I hear it's a lovely place, though. College town. I've been known to make road trips to see Wellperns in remote parts of Idaho, though, so please keep me posted as to the date. And if you head through Boise, let me know.)
inkwell.vue.214
:
Martin Torgoff: "Can't Find My Way Home"
permalink #112 of 160: David Gans (tnf) Mon 31 May 04 16:28
permalink #112 of 160: David Gans (tnf) Mon 31 May 04 16:28
(Will do.)
inkwell.vue.214
:
Martin Torgoff: "Can't Find My Way Home"
permalink #113 of 160: Martin Torgoff (martintorgoff) Mon 31 May 04 16:55
permalink #113 of 160: Martin Torgoff (martintorgoff) Mon 31 May 04 16:55
This is great; this is exactly the kind of dialogue I wrote this book to have about drugs: young people, people who have been down the road with it; addicts, non-addicts; talk from parents. Gary, your point about drugs being "embedded in the generational wars" and your personal feelings about your son are to me what this is all about, and why I started the book with my own father and his utter bewilderment about the whole thing and how painful a part of our relationship it was. Somehow when he talked about looking in my eyes when I was stoned...and not knowing what I was on but knowing I was on something because "the look in your eye had changed from the child I had known." I realized at that moment that this had to be the frame of the book because it was how the story of drugs in our time has been framed. From the very beginning, prohibition was driven by closely related fears: how to protect the white protestant mainstream culture and uphold its "values" from the "other" associated with drugs, whether immigrants, blacks, libertines, what have you. And it has always been a crusade against drugs, the Assassin of Youth. And from the beginning, drugs have always served as a nexus of cultural exchange where boundaries are dissolved. Everywhere you look, in all the drug scenes, you see the dynamic of cultural miscegenation. I see prohibition and the drug war as one of the greatest expressions of American denial in the 20th century--as this giant dizzying mistake that's been going on for almost a century. Of course, drugs aren't going away, any more terrorism is going away, any more than AIDS is going away (until the cure is found). This will be the world of our children. We have to all make our peace with it, but the answer is in the human heart and mind and soul, in our families and friends and communities, not in the diktat of the government. This is why the book begins with the quote from the Tao: Try to make people moral and you lay the groundwork for vice. I believe it to the depths of my soul.
inkwell.vue.214
:
Martin Torgoff: "Can't Find My Way Home"
permalink #114 of 160: David Gans (tnf) Mon 31 May 04 17:19
permalink #114 of 160: David Gans (tnf) Mon 31 May 04 17:19
> Everywhere you look, in all the drug scenes, you see the dynamic of cul- > tural miscegenation. Yes. > I see prohibition and the drug war as one of the greatest expressions of > American denial in the 20th century--as this giant dizzying mistake that's > been going on for almost a century. Yes! And as the American ruling class becomes more and more isolated on their shrinking island of cultural hegemony, their efforts become more shrill and irrational. The current "decency" campaign in broadcastinc (e.g. Howard Stern) is an example.
inkwell.vue.214
:
Martin Torgoff: "Can't Find My Way Home"
permalink #115 of 160: Justin Hager (cubistpoet) Tue 1 Jun 04 01:06
permalink #115 of 160: Justin Hager (cubistpoet) Tue 1 Jun 04 01:06
> This is why the book begins with the quote from the Tao: Try to > make people moral and you lay the groundwork for vice. I believe it > to the depths of my soul. "Because he knows that the credit for learning is due to the willingness of the student, he teaches without teaching"
inkwell.vue.214
:
Martin Torgoff: "Can't Find My Way Home"
permalink #116 of 160: Justin Hager (cubistpoet) Tue 1 Jun 04 01:18
permalink #116 of 160: Justin Hager (cubistpoet) Tue 1 Jun 04 01:18
And I believe, Mr. Torgoff, you have also nailed on the head why it is pointless for you to try to explain your experiences as an addict to those who have not had the same experience and why all DARE-style programs will fail and perhaps one of the great failures in American policy. Namely, the only way to understand a particular experience (especially with regards to drugs) is to have that experience for yourself. No words will ever capture the true essence of that experience, and all our noodling here is simply attempting to find a language to discuss the knowledge of that experience with others who have shared it. We should really give up teaching people absitence, no matter what its form, because in some ways absitence is as unwise as excess. Instead, we should teach youth from the very beginning temperance, and by extension the importance of balancing different portions of life. It seems the educational system would rather pretend students are robots than humans; we have such an utter disregard for the emotional health/state of our students. That's supposed to be the relegated domain of parents, but I don't know how one can even consider the question of providing any sort of holistic education (especially in regard to lifestyle choices like sex or drugs) without involving emotions. If we're to assume the parents are responsible for a child's emotional life, then parents should also be in charge of a child's drug/sexual education.
inkwell.vue.214
:
Martin Torgoff: "Can't Find My Way Home"
permalink #117 of 160: Martin Torgoff (martintorgoff) Tue 1 Jun 04 17:43
permalink #117 of 160: Martin Torgoff (martintorgoff) Tue 1 Jun 04 17:43
Justin, you're awfully wise for your twenty three years. I agree with pretty much everything you say, except your point about the ineffability of drug experience ie how no words will ever be able to capture the experience. Of course, one can't ultimately "know" an experience unless one has it, but it sure as hell can be described, painted, sketched, rendered in various forms of language. Yes, to write about drugs is very challenging, but people have done it quite brilliantly: Poe, Baudelaire, Aleister Crowley, Mezz Mezzrow, Huxley, Alexander Trocchi, Burroughs, Kerouac, Ginsberg, Leary, Michael McClure, Hendrix, Robert Hunter, and so on. I will grant that to successfully write about drugs is tremendously challenging, and brilliantly even more rare, and not for the literary faint-hearted...
inkwell.vue.214
:
Martin Torgoff: "Can't Find My Way Home"
permalink #118 of 160: Uncle Jax (jax) Tue 1 Jun 04 23:34
permalink #118 of 160: Uncle Jax (jax) Tue 1 Jun 04 23:34
You forgot Quincy!
inkwell.vue.214
:
Martin Torgoff: "Can't Find My Way Home"
permalink #119 of 160: Justin Hager (cubistpoet) Wed 2 Jun 04 08:07
permalink #119 of 160: Justin Hager (cubistpoet) Wed 2 Jun 04 08:07
Well, Martin, thank you for your compliment re: my wisdom. I have suggested elsewhere (well, in my own private journal) that the artist, in the truest sense of the word, is charged with the task of attempting to describe that which defies description. It is perhaps a doomed struggle, but what glorious failures have been produced so far! :) It's my stuggle as well, as a fledgling poet, to find someway to subvert the unstable medium of language enough to poke through a little bit that cardboard partition that floats between knowledge/description and experience/understanding. It's a toughy. Most of the time you just end up preaching to the choir.
inkwell.vue.214
:
Martin Torgoff: "Can't Find My Way Home"
permalink #120 of 160: Martin Torgoff (martintorgoff) Thu 3 Jun 04 03:39
permalink #120 of 160: Martin Torgoff (martintorgoff) Thu 3 Jun 04 03:39
Poetry is the bravest form of writing. Preach on...
inkwell.vue.214
:
Martin Torgoff: "Can't Find My Way Home"
permalink #121 of 160: Robin Russell (rrussell8) Thu 3 Jun 04 06:39
permalink #121 of 160: Robin Russell (rrussell8) Thu 3 Jun 04 06:39
Martin, at p 22 "Huncke took another hit and laughed softly. Kerouac and Cassady died back in the sixties and soon Ginsberg and Burroughs would be gone as well. Huncke would live out his last days in a room in the Chelsea Hotel paid for by the Grateful Dead through the Rex Foundation. He was the last living connection to a part of the past that we had always sought to disavow and bury in jails - the time of the old schmeckers like Louie the Lip and Crazy Ozzie, Harry Anslinger and reefer madness." Kerouac and Cassady died in the sixties (1969 and 1968 respectively), while both Burroughs (1914 - 1997) and Ginsberg (1926 - 1997) outlived Huncke (1915 - 1996). While they died soon after Kerouac and Cassidy on some timescales, given that the book covers the period 1945 to 2000, thirty years is a pretty long time. The inside flap of the book calls it a history. Do you see your role as an historian? Or is it more of a personal chronicle, setting out your perspectives and the influences on your own life experience?
inkwell.vue.214
:
Martin Torgoff: "Can't Find My Way Home"
permalink #122 of 160: Martin Torgoff (martintorgoff) Thu 3 Jun 04 08:51
permalink #122 of 160: Martin Torgoff (martintorgoff) Thu 3 Jun 04 08:51
Robin, I see it as both, though it certainly isn't a "formal" history. As it turns out, I got my degree in history, so I've read plenty of them, but the last thing I wanted to do was something academic. I came of age being very much influenced by the New Journalism of f the 60s--Wolfe, Mailer, Talese, et al--when the writer's personal take became all but inseparable from the material at hand, so an approach that was a "personal chronicle" as well as a history was a natural one. I was also influenced by the rise of oral history as exemplified by Studs Terkel, wherein authentic voices form a social mosaic. And I was very much influenced by a number of novelists: Kesey, Kerouac, Bob Stone, many others. I've always liked non fiction book in which novelized elements work well. I think the book combines all of these, and the subject of drugs seemed to require all of them. And by the way, as long as you're pointing out the dates of the demise of the various Beats in the book, I'm struck and always by the incredible longevity of Burroughs--a living testament to a long life of narcotics!
inkwell.vue.214
:
Martin Torgoff: "Can't Find My Way Home"
permalink #123 of 160: Justin Hager (cubistpoet) Thu 3 Jun 04 09:06
permalink #123 of 160: Justin Hager (cubistpoet) Thu 3 Jun 04 09:06
I'm currently making my way through Wolfe's _The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test_, and it is literally spellbinding. It's been a long time since I was so utterly entranced by a book as to plow through over a hundred pages in a single sitting, a single tired sitting at that. It's amazing to realize that LSD and the culture surrounding it basically all came spiraling out of a psychological experiment that just happened to have Ken Kesey as its subject. Someone who really believed, deeply, that the world as it actually lived and breathed was being revealed to him for the first time. His (undoubtedly well documented by his own cameras) antics would be shocking now. I can't imagine what they were like to people of the time.
inkwell.vue.214
:
Martin Torgoff: "Can't Find My Way Home"
permalink #124 of 160: David Gans (tnf) Thu 3 Jun 04 09:09
permalink #124 of 160: David Gans (tnf) Thu 3 Jun 04 09:09
I traded books and autographs with Kesey back in the late '80s, and I signed my book "To Ken Kesey - our Prometheus."
inkwell.vue.214
:
Martin Torgoff: "Can't Find My Way Home"
permalink #125 of 160: Robin Russell (rrussell8) Thu 3 Jun 04 10:48
permalink #125 of 160: Robin Russell (rrussell8) Thu 3 Jun 04 10:48
Aleister Crowley also had a pretty good run. AIDS and Hep C are taking a savage toll these days. Garcia said "Drugs was our Vietnam" - a quote that I don't think is in the book. Martin, what is your take on that one? I took it to mean more than just a nod to the dead and damaged. Something like a coming of age trial.
Members: Enter the conference to participate. All posts made in this conference are world-readable.