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Ted Orland - "The View From The Studio Door"
permalink #76 of 145: Kindness does not require an infrastructure (chrys) Tue 1 Aug 06 19:23
permalink #76 of 145: Kindness does not require an infrastructure (chrys) Tue 1 Aug 06 19:23
Ted, there is another side to this economic levitation that you haven't spoken much about and that is the generosity of artistic communities. (I am tempted to insert the word 'healthy' inside that phrase 'artistic communities', but I'll resist it.) I've stopped being amazing, though I continue to be grateful, to those who have shared generously. Referrals, lent (or *given*) equipment, recommendations, the nudge at the right time, or just the benefit of an honest perspective. Beyond the practical help these things are, they also help minimize the sense of isolation that can creep into artistic endeavors. Ted himself has been an active advocate and friend to many artists. And the beneficiary, too, of generous acts. Perhaps he'll share some of these stories. (And folks who may be reading this who have stories to tell can pipe up.) ~~~~~ And a reminder to those off the Well, that you can participate by sending an email with your comments or questions to the hosts of this conference via inkwell@well.com
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Ted Orland - "The View From The Studio Door"
permalink #77 of 145: Ted Orland (tedorland) Wed 2 Aug 06 09:25
permalink #77 of 145: Ted Orland (tedorland) Wed 2 Aug 06 09:25
I appreciate Chris effort to add a dash of altruism into the equation in her questioning Wildes quote, but personally I kinda like Wildes clever but non-judgmental description of the different world view of artists & bankers. Mostly, I think we just do the best we can at any given point, and only look at the whys & wherefors well after the fact. And in truth Im never sure whether our deeper motives or beliefs are really there, and just bubble to the surface naturally over time, or whether its just revisionist history at work -- or some combination of both. In that vein, the following story may strike you as a non sequitur, but I think of it more like a reality check Lee Witkin, the founder of Witkin Gallery, me told once about having had the once-in-a-lifetime chance to spend a morning listening in (in sort of a fly-on-the-wall fashion) on a meeting between Georgia OKeefe and Laura Gilpin at OKeefes ranch in New Mexico. He remembered how excited he was at the prospect of hearing these two legendary figures in Southwestern art -- What would they say as they compared notes on their work, on its meaning and purpose, on its spiritual content, on Stieglitz and Adams and Weston and Picasso, on the future of art itself? He told me they spent two hours discussing how difficult it was to find a laundry they could trust to clean their clothes right, which brand of coffee they favored, the difficulty of scheduling UPS pickups, and the weather.
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Ted Orland - "The View From The Studio Door"
permalink #78 of 145: Kindness does not require an infrastructure (chrys) Wed 2 Aug 06 09:50
permalink #78 of 145: Kindness does not require an infrastructure (chrys) Wed 2 Aug 06 09:50
No surprise there. But I'll go back to the summer I met Ted when I was the recipient of two gracious acts of generosity. I went to Yosemite to attend an Ansel Adams week-long workshop. Ansel was dead by then (this was 84 or 85, perhaps Ted can remember) so the featured instructors were Paul Caponigro, Jerry Uelsmann, Ernst Haas, and Wanda Hammerbeck. I went with a wish to work with Caponigro. The first night of the workshop, I looked at the schedule they handed me and was dismayed at how little time I had to spend with Caponigro. Fortunately, the next day, my first session was with him. At the end of the session, I approached him and told him I came to study with him and asked if I could attend all of his sessions without regard for my schedule. He eyed me for a moment, and then said 'yes' so long as I didn't become a pest. So that was what I did. It was great. I tagged along whenever he had a public session and soaked up everything he said, looked at everything he drew attention to. One afternoon he invited me to join him for lunch and we just talked. I had awkward questions about making work, and he was kind and thoughtful. After the workshop was over, we corresponded very briefly. I still have the letter in which he described 'the perfect trap' I'd laid out for myself. It took me years to free myself from that trap. Sometimes I still fall in it, but mostly I don't. It may not have seemed like a lot, but for this pipsqueak photographer, it was incredibly valuable. I'll share the other example in another post.
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Ted Orland - "The View From The Studio Door"
permalink #79 of 145: Kindness does not require an infrastructure (chrys) Wed 2 Aug 06 10:00
permalink #79 of 145: Kindness does not require an infrastructure (chrys) Wed 2 Aug 06 10:00
But it will have to wait till lunch time....
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Ted Orland - "The View From The Studio Door"
permalink #80 of 145: T Kelly (bumbaugh) Wed 2 Aug 06 11:20
permalink #80 of 145: T Kelly (bumbaugh) Wed 2 Aug 06 11:20
Ted, one of the major points in The View From the Studio Door is that there is now a sense of isolation between artist and audience that didn't exist in the (distant) past. Much of this conversation so far has worked from the inside out; artists working in that isolation by focusing tightly on their inner dialogue for inspiration and validation. But clearly that isn't the only way art operates. Great work can be driven by outside pressure. Competitions, contracts, deadlines, impatient Tsars, and end-of-semester-need-the-credit all nighters all have produced interesting and sometimes great work. All of these venues have a demanding, built-in audience, albeit a small and focused one. And much of that audience almost assuredly is judgemental, biased, and steeped in values antithetical to your own.(Hang on Ted, I think I have a question in here somewhere.) So how did you balance your inner dialogue and the exterior praise and criticism - or neglect - by your audience? Any recommendations on working through it? Or you can answer this other important artistic question: If one artist leaves San Francisco on a train traveling east at 63 mph, and another leaves New York eight hours later on a train heading west at 72 mph, how many galleries will have rejected each artist's work by the time the trains collide? (It's obviously a performance piece.) Warning: This may require algebra. Tim Kelly
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Ted Orland - "The View From The Studio Door"
permalink #81 of 145: Robert Wrightf (bumbaugh) Wed 2 Aug 06 11:22
permalink #81 of 145: Robert Wrightf (bumbaugh) Wed 2 Aug 06 11:22
Also off-Well, Robert Wright writes: Given this opportunity, I just have to thank Ted whom I feel a kinship from his writing in Scenes of Wonder and Curiosity, that book was very inspirational to me when I was starting out in the early 90's, fresh out of college, and it helped me paint a picture of what my life might be like as an artist and photographer. I still reread it from time to time. i would like to contribute my perspective on "what makes my art matter" to this discussion, something I have not heard anyone say explicitly, and that is for me Art is about forming relationships in many ways, between yourself and the work and the subject of the work, between the artist and the viewer, and hopefully between a community of viewers if it speaks that broadly.? For me, and I have tried to crack this nut so many different ways, but right now, what works is to say that forming relationships is the most human thing we do. It is the most essential thing, to engage with another and share and risk exposure for reward. So why my art matters is that relationships matter, absolutely, and my art comes out of a relationship with myself-knowing my needs, responding to my desires, respecting myself. So that is the first level, the self -relationship. And with art-making this is often the most complicated level to traverse. Art making is a process, and so is maintaining self-awareness, and Art comes out of an awareness of oneself and a relationship with the self. I could make this more psychological, but I will settle for awareness, an awareness of what I attach to, of what I disengage from and an awareness of what my needs and emotions are. Art has to come out of this process, although many times it comes out in spite of this awareness, in fact explaining it away could make you realise you don't need to do this! But I don't think that has to be the case. So I could go on to elaborate the other relationships, between artist and viewer and between viewers,? but it is the same thing really.? Again, for me, Art comes out of the process of exploring relationships, and it is the expression of the most healthy self that you can find. And it is the most basically human activity. So the question, "why does my art matter?" comes down to "it matters because relationships matter" and without relationships the self detaches and isolates. Art matters because it promotes life. How else to say it? This forum matters for the same reason, it promotes relating and sharing. And it validates the tension encountered in that process, the lonely years without recognition, conversely the enjoyment of the solitude of art-making, all these facets. It is a gift to be able to share this with everyone and Ted, who creates relationships and Art wherever he goes. Robert Wright [postal address deleted -- host] robertwrightphoto.com
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Ted Orland - "The View From The Studio Door"
permalink #82 of 145: Ted Orland (tedorland) Wed 2 Aug 06 13:20
permalink #82 of 145: Ted Orland (tedorland) Wed 2 Aug 06 13:20
Ill be the first to champion Tim Kellys observations about impatient Czars et al. I suspect that a close look at artists lives would reveal that an amazingly large proportion of fine art is actually created within the bounds of formidable outside constraints. Such constraints are the subject of endless self-righteous criticism, usually because they appear to infringe on our god-given constitution right to pure unadulterated self-expression. Take away the alleged infringement of outside requirements, and artists will arbitrarily impose their own anyway. Well, Humbug! Take away all constraints and you're left with children's fingerpaintings -- which is fine if you're five years old. Later, life demands more. Boundaries and constraints are not limitations theyre absolutely necessary to provide structure, continuity, and artistic roots from which the NEXT art piece can emerge. Edward Weston worked with one 8x10 camera and one lens. Shakespeare voluntarily placed his verse within the constraints of iambic pentameter and the sonnet format. Ditto Beethoven, Mozart and others composed radically new music within tightly pre-defined boundaries of symphonic & sonata forms. And countless writers have savored the challenge of creating a perfectly modulated Haiku verse. And as far as the compromises required by competitions, employers, teachers and so on, my theory is that you pick the contraints you can live with, the ones that dont contradict your values (and in the best of worlds may even provide a good vehicle for what you want to say anyway). Artists, after all, are a clever lot, and often find a way to get others to pay for what they wanted to do anyway. Ansel Adams accepted a commmission to make landscape photographs for offices of the Dept of the Interior, and in the process photographed Moonrise Hernandez, Mt Williamson from Manzanar and a number of other blockbuster masterpieces. He never had to compromise his values one iota to accept that commission. And by AMAZING coincidence also did not charge his day rate to the government for the precise dates that he made his very best pictures thus assuring that those negatives belonged to him rather than his employer! My own first rudimentary efforts at making fine art (which I defined at the time as being a photograph that had been mounted and signed) came only after working for several years in the commercial world as a graphic designer. I feel absolute no regrets about those years as a designer, and in fact it was the skills I learned then that gave me the ability and the confidence to -- among many other things -- design and self-publish my words & images many years later.
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Ted Orland - "The View From The Studio Door"
permalink #83 of 145: Tell your piteous heart there's no harm done. (krome) Wed 2 Aug 06 22:27
permalink #83 of 145: Tell your piteous heart there's no harm done. (krome) Wed 2 Aug 06 22:27
"If one artist leaves San Francisco on a train traveling east at 63 mph, and another leaves New York eight hours later on a train heading west at 72 mph, how many galleries will have rejected each artist's work by the time the trains collide?" All of them, except for the one in WY since they were closed for the season and wouldn't even see the slides for 4 months. Their rejection letters(they had received slides from both artists) would, of course, be returned unopened. Many years after this the gallery would mount a show comprised of all the slides it had received from artists that it had been unable to return via mail. It was a hit. The New York Times said, "The innocent yet ambitious fragility of the pieces offer stark commentary on the human condition, the selves we send out to the frozen prairie or into space or to the gallery in Midtown...". The San Francisco Chronicle, of course, ran exactly the same story, without edit. The gallery, to its credit and to the best of its ability(the slides had mostly all ended up in an old Baskin Robbins ice cream bucket, unsorted) had attached names to the slides. The New York Times figured there probably wasn't any use in trying to track down the artists. Ditto the Chronicle.
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Ted Orland - "The View From The Studio Door"
permalink #84 of 145: Ted Orland (tedorland) Wed 2 Aug 06 23:26
permalink #84 of 145: Ted Orland (tedorland) Wed 2 Aug 06 23:26
>Art is about forming relationships< I think that proposition is the core of Robert Wrights post, and it certainly rings true for me. I could quibble about whether forming relationships is the most human thing we do, but putting that aside, theres little doubt in my mind that art *is* meant to serve a social purpose. That purpose would have been self-evident in earlier times, when art and community were far more closely intertwined. Human nature and culture evolved together, and for thousands of years art served as the bond that linked, strengthened and validated both. Art was in fact so thoroughly integrated into the social fabric that most pre-industrial cultures didnt even have a separate word for art. Today, however, we are a society without community. Today the very idea that the purpose of art is to form or strengthen relationships would be dismissed as naïve romanticism. As a culture, weve bought into the carefully crafted message that art is rare rather than common, that artmaking is the product of genius rather than commitment and belief, that self-expression trumps the expression of shared beliefs, and that in the end the subject of art is art itself. Well, all that may play well within the art world, but it also goes a long way toward explaining why most non-artists find zero connection between their own life and the art that predominates in the gallery world today. How deeply *can* art matter if the only fitting description of its meaning and purpose is art for arts sake?
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Ted Orland - "The View From The Studio Door"
permalink #85 of 145: Ted Orland (tedorland) Wed 2 Aug 06 23:31
permalink #85 of 145: Ted Orland (tedorland) Wed 2 Aug 06 23:31
I love your post, Kevin, responding to Tim's math problem. With humor that biting, your true calling may be as a critic rather than an artist!
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Ted Orland - "The View From The Studio Door"
permalink #86 of 145: Kindness does not require an infrastructure (chrys) Thu 3 Aug 06 00:04
permalink #86 of 145: Kindness does not require an infrastructure (chrys) Thu 3 Aug 06 00:04
Yes, that is a great post Kevin. I thought the Baskin Robbins ice cream bucket was a nice touch. Ted, it could be that it is very late in the evening, but it seems to me your post #84 could leave one feeling a little hopeless.
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Ted Orland - "The View From The Studio Door"
permalink #87 of 145: putting your geek boots on (marvy) Thu 3 Aug 06 05:13
permalink #87 of 145: putting your geek boots on (marvy) Thu 3 Aug 06 05:13
I went to a funeral last night for a young man, the son of a friend of ours. The minister (our backyard neighbor, Nyack, wonderful, Nyack...) spoke of two great burdens in his life: being a young black man and being an artist. This struck me, particularly in relation to our conversation here. And looking at the clown in front of me (Bill Irwin) and the filmaker over on the left (Jonathan Demme) it occurred to me that maybe the difficulty actually WAS in the commerce of it. Those guys don't seem to be having trouble being artists, certainly not in the sense of being a young black man trying to survive in a racist society. Those "successful" artists are admittedly both white, and maybe the racial angle just complicates all this. But looking at Irwin, I was thinking, "this guy's a freakin' clown!", but he's managed to create an actual body of work AND support his family. Nice work, if you can get it. Van Gogh died penniless. So did this kid. One difference is that this kid's artwork was terrible. I'm sorry, don't mean to insult the dead, but these paintings were awful. The people who talked about him living on for hundreds of years through his paintings were delusional (but at a funeral with the mother keening in front of 350 people it's hard to be otherwise). I wonder if selling the thing gives one a validation not receivable any other way. Art is all about the artist but it looks to me like you need the patron too.
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Ted Orland - "The View From The Studio Door"
permalink #88 of 145: therese (therese) Thu 3 Aug 06 09:54
permalink #88 of 145: therese (therese) Thu 3 Aug 06 09:54
In any endeavor, there's always the prospect of failure. What makes art different than most other professions is that most folks don't go into it with an idea of striking it rich, or even striking it comfortable. It's totally off the radar in career choices. And, yet, there are artists, and as long as the human race survives, I'd make the bet that there always will be. The matter of the critic is essential. The gatekeepers serve a necessary function. And they are often wrong, or too much of their own time, to understand what they are reviewing. But that is always so. There's no shortage of book reviewers, literary theorists, publications that run the gamut from high culture to low, all addressing the written word. The same is true for movies and television. I don't think there's a plethora of critics who specialize in the review of photography. I'd love to have some recommendations, in case I've missed someone. In the photography conference on the Well we have a topic devoted to books on photography. The reading list is relatively short, though quite good. I agree with Ted about the disconnect between the gallery and non-artists. I think that's a fairly complex dynamic that has to do with purposely branding art as commodity for the rarefied few. Rather off-putting to most folks. There's also the artist who feels miffed if the artwork someone wants is to be placed on the wall over the sofa. Well, where else would you have them place it? So artists who get offended by popularity and everyday usage of their artwork add to the disconnect.
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Ted Orland - "The View From The Studio Door"
permalink #89 of 145: Ted Orland (tedorland) Thu 3 Aug 06 10:21
permalink #89 of 145: Ted Orland (tedorland) Thu 3 Aug 06 10:21
Getting back to Kevins faux NY Times Review for a moment, I remember Ansel Adams once reflecting in similar fashion on the likely fate of his own work at the hands of critics (who by the 1970s were busily discrediting straight landscapes after discovering an exciting new world filled with nude transvestites). At any rate, we were standing in Ansels darkroom as he made prints for his upcoming retrospective exhibition for the NY Metropolitan Museum of Art, and Ansel was cheerily composing mock headlines for the review Hilton Kramer was expected to write for his NY Times column. In a booming voice, Ansel would deliver the prospective headlines with biblical doomsday solemnity. A couple of them I remember clearly were: Ansel Adams: Fifty Years and Not A Single New Idea!, and Ansel Adams: Isnt He Dead YET!?
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Ted Orland - "The View From The Studio Door"
permalink #90 of 145: Tell your piteous heart there's no harm done. (krome) Thu 3 Aug 06 10:34
permalink #90 of 145: Tell your piteous heart there's no harm done. (krome) Thu 3 Aug 06 10:34
Heh! My bite tends to be humorous only in short bits after which it gets pretty depressing. A painting can be a sustained moment, the humorous, happy, biting bits without the real(depressing) reality.
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Ted Orland - "The View From The Studio Door"
permalink #91 of 145: Tell your piteous heart there's no harm done. (krome) Thu 3 Aug 06 11:42
permalink #91 of 145: Tell your piteous heart there's no harm done. (krome) Thu 3 Aug 06 11:42
When I was tending bar at Liverpool Lil's I told one semi-regular, Bob, a stock broker, that I was an artist. His response was, "That's your problem!" and we went on to discuss Medtronic's performance over the last quarter.
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Ted Orland - "The View From The Studio Door"
permalink #92 of 145: Kindness does not require an infrastructure (chrys) Thu 3 Aug 06 12:09
permalink #92 of 145: Kindness does not require an infrastructure (chrys) Thu 3 Aug 06 12:09
Ha!
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Ted Orland - "The View From The Studio Door"
permalink #93 of 145: Ted Orland (tedorland) Thu 3 Aug 06 12:56
permalink #93 of 145: Ted Orland (tedorland) Thu 3 Aug 06 12:56
>Ted, it could be that it is very late in the evening, but it seems to me your post #84 could leave one feeling a little hopeless.< Hmmm, it doesnt strike me that way at all. Infuriating and disillusioning, perhaps but hopeless only if you buy into the prevailing myths & stereotypes. And in any case its nowhere near as clear-cut as choosing between rebelling against the Evil Empire or going over the Dark Side. Theres a subtle but distinct difference, emotionally and philosophically, between reacting to the world, and responding to it. You can react to what the worlds thrown at you and push it aside or break through it to reach your goals, and or you can respond to what the worlds thrown at you and find ways to convert what it offers you to your own advantage to reach that same end.
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Ted Orland - "The View From The Studio Door"
permalink #94 of 145: Ted Orland (tedorland) Thu 3 Aug 06 12:59
permalink #94 of 145: Ted Orland (tedorland) Thu 3 Aug 06 12:59
I just wanted to say that I don't want to lose track of those two wonderful postings by Chris (#87) & Therese (#88), but I do seem to be falling behind the curve a bit. At any rate, there are good ideas worth pursuing there...
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Ted Orland - "The View From The Studio Door"
permalink #95 of 145: Ted Orland (tedorland) Thu 3 Aug 06 21:25
permalink #95 of 145: Ted Orland (tedorland) Thu 3 Aug 06 21:25
I really love Thereses posting (#88), which is chock full of interesting ideas. But just to play contrarian Artiste, Id like to arm-wrestle her over her opening comment: >What makes art different than most other professions is that most folks don't go into it with an idea of striking it rich, or even striking it comfortable. It's totally off the radar in career choices.< I have a different take on this biased and myopic, perhaps, but one nonetheless born of my first-person-singular experience of having entered photography so long ago that it had not yet been discovered by the art world (or at least not by the high-end gallery world). Consider that in the 1960s there wasnt a single living photographer you could point to who had achieved both fame & fortune as a result of his/her accomplishments in the medium. It was an era when at least in photography -- you truly had no reason to take up the art except from a pure love of that art. You could be the most famous photographer in the world, and that, plus the proverbial dime, would get you a cup of coffee. When I first met Ansel in 1966 he was busily hawking his Portfolio IV: 16 prints for $150. Thats $9 a print (!) -- and it took him YEARS to sell off the edition of 150 copies. So with that as your role model for success, you took up the craft from a sheer love of the craft, or because you had something you wanted to say, or (hopefully) both. But in photography, that all changed in the mid-70s when the East Coast gallery world entered the photography market. My favorite example is Harry Lunn, whose Gallery bought for $150 apiece -- the last three hundred copies of Moonrise Hernandez that Ansel Adams produced, stashed them away for three years, and then put them on the market at $10,000 apiece. Indeed, prices of many photographers works soon skyrocketed, carrying a number of rising stars in the photo world along with them. Their highly visible success drew in more players, which created a demand for university-level photography programs (and then graduate programs to train more photography teachers), which in turn well, you get the idea. So yes, I have a sneaking suspicion that today artists DO go into it with the fantasy of striking it rich. It doesnt matter, apparently, how long the odds are as long as youve got SOME example to pin your hopes on. Witness the Lottery, which people play even though their chance of winning is less than the chance of being struck by lightning. One difference, of course, is that with the Lottery were not overly disillusioned when the fantasy evaporates, because weve only invested five dollars, rather than five YEARS, into the effort. None of this, however, need dissuade anyone from pursuing a life in the arts -- it simply means you may need to find look elsewhere for an occupation. Think of it as a reality check. Truth is, if you immerse yourself in your art because of the return the art itself brings, then everything else is cream on top.
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Ted Orland - "The View From The Studio Door"
permalink #96 of 145: Kindness does not require an infrastructure (chrys) Thu 3 Aug 06 21:34
permalink #96 of 145: Kindness does not require an infrastructure (chrys) Thu 3 Aug 06 21:34
<I have a sneaking suspicion that today artists DO go into it with the fantasy of striking it rich.> There are mercenaries (Jeff Koons is my favorite example) in any profession, but I find that premise difficult to swallow. Any evidence you can point to? Are you seeing students flocking to art/photography classes with a belief they'll make it big? Or are you just being contrary?
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Ted Orland - "The View From The Studio Door"
permalink #97 of 145: Tell your piteous heart there's no harm done. (krome) Fri 4 Aug 06 00:43
permalink #97 of 145: Tell your piteous heart there's no harm done. (krome) Fri 4 Aug 06 00:43
"Consider that in the 1960s there wasnt a single living photographer you could point to who had achieved both fame & fortune as a result of his/her accomplishments in the medium" Richard Avedon? Which brings us to fashion photography...
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permalink #98 of 145: therese (therese) Fri 4 Aug 06 05:37
permalink #98 of 145: therese (therese) Fri 4 Aug 06 05:37
Ha! I have to let you know that my home away from home is a place where they wrestle alligators for sport. I may have picked up a trick or two, from a hunting binocular distance. There's no doubt that some artists have achieved fame and fortune. As you note, it wasn't Ansel Adams' marketing ability that accomplished the task for him. It was a gallery owner who saw the quality of Adams' work, bought the entire remaining stock, and knew how to present it to the marketplace. The power of pricing and marketing generally remains in the hands of the gatekeepers, which is why the seasoned artists of less renown rail against the east coast galleries and the lottery-like odds of having their work seen. If you're going to dance the gallery owners' dance, that's a hellish path, if it doesn't come naturally. I'll concede that the dream of riches and fame may be a driving force for a beginning artist, but when the only check you're receiving at the end of year one, two, three, four, five, and so on, is a reality check, my guess is that the driving force is something other than fame and fortune. It better be. Because what matters is the work, and for the artist, I don't mean the finished product, I mean the way of life. So, let the beginning artist hold on to that notion of making it big, if that provides enough fuel to get her started. It's just another form of kindling. In time, she'll have to keep the fire burning, and that's when she'll find out if the process of art making is where she is most alive. Then you can't keep her from it. I think we're both agreeing with each other.
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Ted Orland - "The View From The Studio Door"
permalink #99 of 145: Kindness does not require an infrastructure (chrys) Fri 4 Aug 06 07:07
permalink #99 of 145: Kindness does not require an infrastructure (chrys) Fri 4 Aug 06 07:07
<when the only check you're receiving at the end of year one, two, three, four, five, and so on, is a reality check> god, how I love that line!
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permalink #100 of 145: Ted Orland (tedorland) Fri 4 Aug 06 10:03
permalink #100 of 145: Ted Orland (tedorland) Fri 4 Aug 06 10:03
I love Therese's line too! I also like her thought that dreams of riches may be OK at the outset, if that's what it takes to get one into the game. (I'm not yet entirely convinced by it, but I like it!) And in any case, yes, we really are in overall agreement on this topic. And yes Kevin, there was Richard Avedon (fashion) and Margaret Bourke-White (photojournalism) and Karsh (portraiture) and other exceptions, but I think their prominence in the *art* world arose later, retroactively. That was in fact the case with all those who viewed their personal photography as art Sommer, Weston, Adams, Arbus, Friedlander, the whole crowd. I remember Jack Welpott saying that when he came into photography in the 1950's, the whole concept of photography-as-art was so foreign that when asked "what kind of photography he did", hed fumble around trying to explain that he did "creative" photography. And even into the 1970s, photographs in museums (MOMA excepted) were never exhibited in the museums galleries, but were uniformly consigned to line the hallways separating the galleries, interspersed with doorways, fire extinguishers and signs pointing the way to the bathrooms. I also want to reassure Chris Florkowski that Im not trying to divide the world into Good Guys and Evil Doers when I talk about people coming into the art with fantasy-level expectations of striking it big. The issue is far more subtle (and less sinister) than that, often reflected in questions and comments I hear from beginning students: -- Im going to give photography three years, and if I cant make it by then Ill try something else. -- How do I copyright my pictures so no one can steal them and make money off them? -- Do you think I should photograph [whatever] so I have a better chance of getting my work into a gallery (And a hundred related questions like, Do I need to print my work really big for it to sell? Is it OK to photograph straight landscapes?) -- Should I only print my work in limited editions? this from students who have yet to sell their first print Well, you get the idea. Whats most striking to me is that those are often among the *first* questions students ask. Somehow that strikes me as putting the cart before the horse long before figuring out what they have to say thru their art, and long before theyve found a style & technique that matches their vision, these young people are ready to abdicate those choices to the marketplace. I think theyre getting mightily short-changed in the process. A life in the arts is not the same as a life in the art world.
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