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permalink #201 of 295: Maria Rosales (rosmar) Sun 14 Sep 08 11:48
permalink #201 of 295: Maria Rosales (rosmar) Sun 14 Sep 08 11:48
I'm sympathetic to this argument, since I am a college professor and I have gotten phone calls from over-involved parents. It is still surprising to me when it happens, because it seems so inappropriate. On the other hand, it is a minority of parents who have called me or have called the dean to intervene about a student I teach. And I do wonder about the use of terms like "skyrocketing," which have a clear numerical connotation, without numbers to support that connotation. How do you know, for example, that the increased demand for mental health services isn't primarily driven by a decreased stigma attached to those services?
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permalink #202 of 295: Mr. Death is coming after you, too (divinea) Sun 14 Sep 08 12:04
permalink #202 of 295: Mr. Death is coming after you, too (divinea) Sun 14 Sep 08 12:04
Can you also say more about this, please: <the studies showing that even kids who seem to be genetically loaded to develop anxiety do not develop anxiety if their parents step back a bit and they are left to make their own accommodation to the world.>
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permalink #203 of 295: Hara Estroff Marano (haramarano) Sun 14 Sep 08 16:31
permalink #203 of 295: Hara Estroff Marano (haramarano) Sun 14 Sep 08 16:31
maria, i refer you to chapter 8 of my book. the data are all there. how do i know it's not just due to reduced stigma? because the stigma is alive and well; many kids do NOT seek out services (many don't want anything on their records). and still the rates of disorders are climbing alarmingly. the american college health association reported an incidence of depression among college students of 10.3% in the year 2000. in the year 2004 it was 15%. that's just depression. there are vastly more kids needing and taking meds; that's not a function of stigma. there are more episodes of self-mutilation, every one of which tremendously disrupts a campus or a dorm because it must be treated (until proven otherwise) as a potential suicide attempt. binge-drinking is another problem very much related to kids having no coping skills. the rates are incredibly high and growing (see the book for exact frequency), and are especially high among girls in the greek system. how is binge-drinking related? because these kids lack social skills and have no way to relate to others. so they "pre-game" before going out...that is, they down a few shots of vodka in their room, alone...and then drink to the point of passing out. in part they do this so they can have an intense experience all their own to talk about. "wow, last night i got so smashed...." it is a very upside down world in which you have to drink to the oint of passing out to feel more alive and have something to talk about. one consequence of binge-drinking is rising rates of "alcohol-related conduct violations." i'm sorry, these are just not the result of diminishing stigma; they are the result of disinhibition. in the first two weeks of the 2006-2007 school year, one eastern university with a freshman class of 1,300 (by the way, the brightest freshman class it ever had, on paper at least) reported 60 alcohol-related conduct violations in two weeks. fist fights. sexual assaults. severe roommate conflicts. one other consequence is rising incidence of date rape on campuses. As for the studies on those genetically loaded for anxiety...classic studies of psychologist Jerome Kagan and colleagues at Harvard University, well documented in the book. Kagan followed kids from birth well into childhood and beyond. I've reported on his studies for years in Psychology Today. Kagan is recently retired, but his work lives on.
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permalink #204 of 295: Jim Rutt (memetic) Sun 14 Sep 08 16:50
permalink #204 of 295: Jim Rutt (memetic) Sun 14 Sep 08 16:50
I must say I chuckled a little about the definition of "binge drinking" ... 5 drinks in a sitting ... in say 2 hours that would be a moderate buzz.... wouldn't that be almost every non-seventh day adventist or non-mormon college student since like 1933? Now if you made the cut at 10 drinks, I'd be more worried about it. And it does seem that "kids today" are even more into getting seriously shitfaced than we were, which is saying something.
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permalink #205 of 295: Hara Estroff Marano (haramarano) Sun 14 Sep 08 17:34
permalink #205 of 295: Hara Estroff Marano (haramarano) Sun 14 Sep 08 17:34
the drinking today is of a different quality. when we drank, you drank for a little social lubrication. it made things aa bit looser and more fun. what's fun about pre-gaming? you down several vodka shots in your room, alone, before you have contact with anyone else. so you're buzzed before you begin. five drinks in an hour? i beg to differ with you. that is serious drinking and it will produce a serious blood alcohol level. there is a great deal more alcohol toxicity now among students, incidents where kids have to be taken to the hospital for treatment. but you have to understand, the intent is totally different. once, you drank for social lubrication. drinking accompanied conviviality, as it has among students for generation. now drinking is very focused and goal-directed: you drink to consume as much as possible in as little time as possible. there are a number of university presidents who a terribly concerned about these trends. you may have heard of the recent amethyst initiative, of college presidents who would like to see the legal drinking age lowered to 18. from the website of the amethyst intiative: Launched in July 2008, the Amethyst Initiative is made up of chancellors and presidents of universities and colleges across the United States. These higher education leaders have signed their names to a public statement that the problem of irresponsible drinking by young people continues despite the minimum legal drinking age of 21, and there is a culture of dangerous binge drinking on many campuses. The Amethyst Initiative supports informed and unimpeded debate on the 21 year-old drinking age. Amethyst Initiative presidents and chancellors call upon elected officials to weigh all the consequences of current alcohol policies and to invite new ideas on how best to prepare young adults to make responsible decisions about alcohol use.
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permalink #206 of 295: descend into a fractal hell of meta-truthiness (jmcarlin) Sun 14 Sep 08 17:41
permalink #206 of 295: descend into a fractal hell of meta-truthiness (jmcarlin) Sun 14 Sep 08 17:41
In college we used to have a drink, 8 oz of, say, gin, swilled down relatively quickly and afterwards sometimes chanted "He's no fun, he fell right over" when the effects struck someone a wee bit too hard. But outside of one guy who became an alcoholic, we never thought about drinking before a party.
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permalink #207 of 295: descend into a fractal hell of meta-truthiness (jmcarlin) Sun 14 Sep 08 17:42
permalink #207 of 295: descend into a fractal hell of meta-truthiness (jmcarlin) Sun 14 Sep 08 17:42
slip
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permalink #208 of 295: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Sun 14 Sep 08 17:53
permalink #208 of 295: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Sun 14 Sep 08 17:53
"slip" were you just describing what happened to yourself, Jim, after some serious swillage? ;=)
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permalink #209 of 295: Hara Estroff Marano (haramarano) Sun 14 Sep 08 18:02
permalink #209 of 295: Hara Estroff Marano (haramarano) Sun 14 Sep 08 18:02
yes, drinking BEFORE a party? hell no...that would ruin the fun. now you drink beforehand to loosen up and get buzzed, and to have an excuse for acting stupid, because you don't know how to otherwise start a conversation or find common ground with others. check out the urban dictionary on pre-gaming. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pre-gaming to me the beer bong symbolizes the difference in drinking approaches. it's designed to get as much beer (or other alcohol) down your gullet in as little time as possible. you don't have to "waste" time ordering another beer. you stick a tube down your throat and there's a gravity-feed of alcohol.
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permalink #210 of 295: descend into a fractal hell of meta-truthiness (jmcarlin) Sun 14 Sep 08 21:13
permalink #210 of 295: descend into a fractal hell of meta-truthiness (jmcarlin) Sun 14 Sep 08 21:13
In the interests of self-disclosure I never fell over but I did my share of praying before the porcelain alter before I wised up and realized that a few minutes of drunken 'fun' was not worth hours of repentence.
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permalink #211 of 295: Jennifer Simon (nomis-refinnej) Sun 14 Sep 08 22:06
permalink #211 of 295: Jennifer Simon (nomis-refinnej) Sun 14 Sep 08 22:06
The data cited identify changes in behavior but do not support the argument that these changes are caused by a shift in parenting style, and Kagan's studies undermine the notion that parenting is the sole, or even the most significant, factor in determining temperament.
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permalink #212 of 295: Hara Estroff Marano (haramarano) Mon 15 Sep 08 04:19
permalink #212 of 295: Hara Estroff Marano (haramarano) Mon 15 Sep 08 04:19
i'm not sure what summary you are reading of kagan's studies, but the studies on the anxious kids definitely indicate that overinvolved parenting has its effect. one of the ongoing debates in all of psychology is how much effect parenting has on ordinary kids. it seems that negative parenting has a large effect, and this would include intrusive parenting. and it seems that good and bad parenting have a particularly big effect, in opposite directions, of course, on difficult kids. this will be a debate until the end of time. no one can ever prove that an act of parenting had an effect x years down the line. check out the studies of psychologist jeffrey wood, at ucla, reported in the book, in the chapter From Scrutiny to Fragility. he is directly testing intrusive parenting in a very close-up way.
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permalink #213 of 295: Jennifer Simon (nomis-refinnej) Mon 15 Sep 08 04:29
permalink #213 of 295: Jennifer Simon (nomis-refinnej) Mon 15 Sep 08 04:29
Your description of the effects of parenting seem in line with Bowlby. I thought Kagan aimed to refute Bowlby, advancing the theory that temperament is at least as much, if not more, the result of nature than nurture. Could you point me to the particular studies by Kagan you're using for support?
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permalink #214 of 295: Jennifer Simon (nomis-refinnej) Mon 15 Sep 08 04:34
permalink #214 of 295: Jennifer Simon (nomis-refinnej) Mon 15 Sep 08 04:34
Difficult kids? Are they different from kids with difficulties? If no one can ever prove that an act of parenting had an effect x years down the line, why should we fear the results of parenting styles that differ from our own?
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permalink #215 of 295: Maria Rosales (rosmar) Mon 15 Sep 08 05:03
permalink #215 of 295: Maria Rosales (rosmar) Mon 15 Sep 08 05:03
I went to college between 1990-1994. Nearly everyone I knew binge-drank, for a least a while. Beer bongs were already a staple. I knew a few people who engaged in "cutting," and none of us would have considered telling anyone in authority. And "alcohol related conduct violations" sounds like a phrase that could include drinking while underage. You say "one other consequence is rising incidence of date rape on campuses." According to the Department of Justice, sexual assault has dropped by approximately 60% since 1993. I've read, also, that more people are reporting rapes than used to be the case, particularly on campuses, many of which now have anonymous hotlines that rape victims can call. Are you sure that there is an increase in the number of date rapes on campus? When do you start counting? On the stigma attached to mental health services, I didn't say the stigma has gone away. I said that it may be reduced, and that the possibility that it has been reduced needs to be taken into account when using demand for mental health services as evidence that we are increasingly becoming "a nation of wimps."
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permalink #216 of 295: Jim Rutt (memetic) Mon 15 Sep 08 06:05
permalink #216 of 295: Jim Rutt (memetic) Mon 15 Sep 08 06:05
reducing the drinking age to 18 is a good idea. It's ludicrous that someone can get married, incur debts, drive an 18 wheeler, fight and die in war and yet can't have a beer in public. Public drinking has several benefits towardsw (tolerable) sobriety: 1) it's more expensive 2) there publican will cut yu off 3) there is public peer pressure to not become a puking mess, if only so as not to filthy-up up the crapper. ALong a similar line I was in ireland this summer and heard a radio show about problem drinking and it's consequences. Apparantly the crack down on drinking and driving that started in Ireland a few years back has resulted in many more single males sitting at home and drinking alone, very heavily, with all kinds of negative consequences.
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permalink #217 of 295: Hara Estroff Marano (haramarano) Mon 15 Sep 08 06:29
permalink #217 of 295: Hara Estroff Marano (haramarano) Mon 15 Sep 08 06:29
jennifer, check out kagan's studies on overprotective parenting, conducted with doreen arcus, and which i reported in Psychology Today in 1994. http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-19940901-000013.html in fact, that year at the American Psychiatric Association, kagan was part of a symposium on that topic, mentioned in the article. over the years, kagan also reported the studies at meetings of the American Psychological Association, which i attended and took notes on. it is the impression of many who head up campus counseling services that cutting and other forms of self-mutilation have become much more common. (this is not a reportable disorder, once again.) an annual survey of heads of campus counseling centers shows that it is happening more often on their campuses and they are responding to more incidents. in fact, a national conferences was held on the topic in 2004, to address the burgeoning problem. it is for sure a secretive act; that is its nature. but when a roommate walks into a room and there is blood on the floor, or there is blood dripped around the sinks in the bathroom, it is a scary sight (the sight of blood has an alarming effect on us, and many people can't even tolerate the sight of blood), and that is how it often comes to the attention of authorities. as i said it is considered a sign of suicidal intention until proven otherwise, and all kinds of forces are mobilized to respond to such an incident. so despite the secretiveness,it comes to the attention of residential staff, who are required to report it and act on it. colleges are now hyperaware of suicide and (if for no other reason than liability issues) bring in the heavy artillery if there is even a whiff of suicide-like activity. this is definitely the case now, since a series of well-publicized, and very costly, campus suicides earlier this decade. yes, you are very correct that DoJ data show a drop in child victimizations of all kinds, including sexual. this has gone on for a long time, since 1993, as i show in the book. it's why parental fears are out of proportion to the data, the true risk is wildly misperceived. but the actual incidence of date rape, as with all alcohol-related problems, is increasing on campuses. i don't know how much of that, if any, is reported to the DoJ, to tell you the truth. i have no idea when anyone started counting. i know only that one source of counting has gone on since the 1980s and the numbers keep going up. also, when you tap individual schools you find that their numbers of incidents keep going up.
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permalink #218 of 295: Jennifer Simon (nomis-refinnej) Mon 15 Sep 08 06:54
permalink #218 of 295: Jennifer Simon (nomis-refinnej) Mon 15 Sep 08 06:54
I still don't see the data. The most detailed information, listed at the end of the article under "Temperamental Journey", does not address parenting style. Is there a way to access the actual study online? Kagan and Arcus, as quoted, come to a number of qualitative conclusions, accompanied by universal quantifiers.
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permalink #219 of 295: Hara Estroff Marano (haramarano) Mon 15 Sep 08 07:39
permalink #219 of 295: Hara Estroff Marano (haramarano) Mon 15 Sep 08 07:39
i'm glad that a number of college chancellors and presidents took the initiative to open the discussion on reducing the drinking age to 18. there are a lot of reasons why it makes sense. but these folks are taking on the emotionally powerful interests of mothers against drunk driving, who have a certain moral force on their side. it's going to be an interesting debate. i don't know that, as a country, we have the sophistication right now to see how earlier drinking could actually cut dangerous drinking. if you tend to see issues in black and whiite, you won't get this one.
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permalink #220 of 295: Sharon Lynne Fisher (slf) Mon 15 Sep 08 16:03
permalink #220 of 295: Sharon Lynne Fisher (slf) Mon 15 Sep 08 16:03
#184: I don't tell her "that's dangerous" or "you could get hurt." I say, "It scares Mommy." In other words, it's *my* limitation, not hers. I was surprised to read about lost kids cowering in corners because they didn't know how to ask a stranger for help. I practiced 'losing' my kid a few times to make sure she'd know what to do -- with the result that I can hardly turn around in a store without getting one of those announcements from the overhead because she went to Customer Service to tell them her mom was 'lost' -- but at least she knows how to handle it.
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permalink #221 of 295: Hara Estroff Marano (haramarano) Mon 15 Sep 08 17:27
permalink #221 of 295: Hara Estroff Marano (haramarano) Mon 15 Sep 08 17:27
you know, we inoculate our kids against an array of pathogens. why shouldn't we be prudent and inoculate them against an array of common social dangers. exactly as you say, instructing them what to do in a store or crowded place if they get separated from us makes a great deal of sense. and while we freak out when we have to enact Plan A, our kids don't necessarily, if they feel confident in the instructions we've given them. we had the ultimate nightmare happen, here in new york city. the subway doors closed, separating my older son from his nanny. he was 6 or 7 years old at the time. he got off at the next station and she found him right there on the platform, waiting for her. of course, she nearly had a heart attack. he was fine.
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permalink #222 of 295: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Mon 15 Sep 08 17:49
permalink #222 of 295: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Mon 15 Sep 08 17:49
the emotionally powerful interests of mothers against drunk driving The 21-year-old drinking laws create late adolescent scofflaws when the REAL issue is not the drinking per se, but the drinking and driving. In the aftermath of the Vietnam War, drinking laws were lowered (if yer old enough to serve your country, yer old enough to drink). The statistics were strong that disproportionately more late teens were dying on our roads, so MADD pushed for an age delineated sort of prohibition. We all know how well the prohibition era went over. I'm glad to see the college presidents take a controversial stand. MADD promotes a WIMPY approach that avoids the idea of young people drinking responsibly. It's the easy law-and-order copout that teaches the wrong attitudes toward living lawfully.
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permalink #223 of 295: Hara Estroff Marano (haramarano) Mon 15 Sep 08 19:23
permalink #223 of 295: Hara Estroff Marano (haramarano) Mon 15 Sep 08 19:23
scott, yes, it's the drinking and driving...or any irresponsible drinking behavior. i spent a couple of days visiting a large midwestern university a couple of years ago. i was asked to come out to speak to the faculty and administration, which i did. but i also asked to listen, to the students, which i did. there was an incident at this university a couple of years before that was, and still is, to be best of my knowlege, in litigation. the campus is totally isolated, and students are allowed to have fairly liberal amounts of hard alcohol and beer in their rooms. several students decided to go to a bar in town off campus, several miles away. they acquired fake ID cards and drove the several miles into town. while they were drinking, the bar was raided, the kids caught. and what was the parents' reaction? they sued the university for not protecting their kids(!) and to get the arrests off the kids' records. did they care that their kids lied and forged ID cards? no. did they care that their kids were driving under the influence? apparently not. they cared that their kids might have a mark against them on their records that might keep them out of law school. there are many parents who believe that all drinking in college is something to be winked at.
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permalink #224 of 295: Hara Estroff Marano (haramarano) Mon 15 Sep 08 20:14
permalink #224 of 295: Hara Estroff Marano (haramarano) Mon 15 Sep 08 20:14
by and large, these parent are totally unaware of the very driven quality to much campus drinking these days.
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permalink #225 of 295: Jennifer Simon (nomis-refinnej) Tue 16 Sep 08 01:57
permalink #225 of 295: Jennifer Simon (nomis-refinnej) Tue 16 Sep 08 01:57
From <http://clinicaltrial.gov/ct2/show/NCT00593515>: "Does parenting style affect emotion regulation among children who initially demonstrate high levels of fear and anxiety? Although recent correlational research has demonstrated a linkage between parental behaviors, such as excessive intrusiveness, and children's manifestations of fear and anxiety, it is not clear if parenting behaviors directly influence children's ability to regulate these emotions. Alternatively, these parental behaviors may be elicited by children who express fears and anxieties more frequently than other children do." - Jeffrey Wood
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