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permalink #101 of 207: Steve Silberman (digaman) Mon 1 Dec 08 10:52
permalink #101 of 207: Steve Silberman (digaman) Mon 1 Dec 08 10:52
Gary, are you still seeing therapy clients? If so -- and without revealing any confidences -- what is one of the most important things you've learned from your clients in the last couple of years?
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permalink #102 of 207: Eric Gower (gower) Mon 1 Dec 08 15:14
permalink #102 of 207: Eric Gower (gower) Mon 1 Dec 08 15:14
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permalink #103 of 207: Eric Gower (gower) Mon 1 Dec 08 15:20
permalink #103 of 207: Eric Gower (gower) Mon 1 Dec 08 15:20
(As someone who's never had therapy or even shown much interest in it, I'd sign up as a client of Gary's in a heartbeat based on what I've read here! Just ordered the book, and can't wait to read it.)
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permalink #104 of 207: David Gans (tnf) Mon 1 Dec 08 15:37
permalink #104 of 207: David Gans (tnf) Mon 1 Dec 08 15:37
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permalink #105 of 207: David Gans (tnf) Mon 1 Dec 08 15:37
permalink #105 of 207: David Gans (tnf) Mon 1 Dec 08 15:37
I've never been a client of Gary's, but we've been friends for several years and I have found his counsel to be of great value. And the jams in his Band Shack have been quite memorable, too.
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permalink #106 of 207: Gary Greenberg (gberg) Tue 2 Dec 08 03:39
permalink #106 of 207: Gary Greenberg (gberg) Tue 2 Dec 08 03:39
Well, the funny thing is that for at least ten years, I've been pretty ambivalent about being a therapist. Some of the reasons for this are somewhere in the book, although mostly buried. They have to do with the fact that there's a kind of bad faith at the heart of my profession. The Noble Lie is about the misuse of authority, about the way that scientists, especially doctors, claim objective knowledge of matters about which they don't--and most likely can't--possess it. It's not an accident that many of the cases I write about are in the field of psychiatry. That's where it's easiest to make pronouncements about human nature, and where they have the most impact. Now you can do all you want to undermine your own authority with your patients. YOu can, for instance, give patients the option of not getting a diagnosis (which means not using their insurance and probably paying me less than full freight) or of choosing it from the DSM options that seem most applicable. You can also challenge them when they seem to be taking what you say at face value, as if you were in possession of some truth beyond question. YOu can try to weave the whole question of authority into the therapy, reconstruct the way that theme has developed in their life stories. But no matter how transparent you are, no matter how self-effacing or self-disclosing or collaborative, on the bottom line they are paying you to know something that they don't know. Which I do. I have lots of experience helping people to form a coherent narrative about their lives. I think this is useful because so much of what has gone wrong is often the result of an incomplete story, one that can't encompass some important events or aspects of events that have actually occurred. But there is absolutely nothing scientific about this, and to the extent that medicine gains its authority by being scientific, there's nothing medical about it. It's effective, in its own way, but it's not effective like an antibiotic or surgery. So my involvement in the medical-industrial complex bothers me. My book is a way of lobbing a little grenade into the factory, which makes me feel better, but not nearly as better as it would if I just weren't in it in the first place. THere was a time when you could practice therapy outside the medical field, right when I began, but changes in licensing laws have made this impossible. Of course, it's too much to expect in a world as broken as this one that you can live without bad faith, at least not without the kind of moral anorexia I had when I lived in the woods without the mod cons. So I've settled in, and really I can;t complain too much. I get paid a lot more than I would if I had most jobs, and mostly I get paid to tell the truth as I see it.
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permalink #107 of 207: Gary Greenberg (gberg) Tue 2 Dec 08 03:49
permalink #107 of 207: Gary Greenberg (gberg) Tue 2 Dec 08 03:49
But I've been telling myself I'm getting out for so long that it's become a habit. When I got a book contract last year, with an advance big enough to keep me going for awhile, I finally had my opportunity. My new corporate masters didn't want me to quit--they thought it would be better for their book sales if I was a practicing therapist when the book comes out in 2010(it's about depression)--but they couldn't really stop me. It was the last chapter of the Kaczynksi caper--the whole idea behind trying to get a writing career by attaching myself to his coattails was to get out of the therapy racket. But I didn't quit. I cut back, from about twenty hours a week to about fifteen, which means I work two afternoons a week and one full day. But I'm still doing it. Because, and this gets to STeve's question about what I've learned from my clients, I need this work. I'm really dependent on the intimacy that it brings me. NOt that I don;'t have that in my personal life, but the fact that I can spend fifteen hours a week doing nothing but trying to clear out the obstacles to intimacy with a whole variety of people, some of whom are easier to love than others, and all of whom have vastly different stories--this is something that has become really important to me, and without my knowing it. It snuck up on me, and I;ve learned it only as the work has become more and more voluntary.
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Gary Greenberg, The Noble Lie
permalink #108 of 207: Linda Castellani (castle) Tue 2 Dec 08 03:52
permalink #108 of 207: Linda Castellani (castle) Tue 2 Dec 08 03:52
Do you tell your patients what diagnosis you are reporting to the insurance company? If it weren't for the insurance companies, would you even be as concerned with diagnosing as you are with simply helping your patients, or is the diagnosis integral to the help you can provide?
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permalink #109 of 207: Linda Castellani (castle) Tue 2 Dec 08 03:53
permalink #109 of 207: Linda Castellani (castle) Tue 2 Dec 08 03:53
You slipped!
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permalink #110 of 207: Gary Greenberg (gberg) Tue 2 Dec 08 05:20
permalink #110 of 207: Gary Greenberg (gberg) Tue 2 Dec 08 05:20
If it weren't for the insurance companies, I would rarely, if ever, think about diagnoses. They have a limited usefulness, providing a shorthand way of talking with others in the field, but that's about it. And yes I always tell people what their diagnosis is, and I further explain that this becomes part of their permanent medical record, which may be of interest if they ever apply for life insurance, a job requiring a security clearance, or high political office.
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permalink #111 of 207: Steve Silberman (digaman) Tue 2 Dec 08 07:33
permalink #111 of 207: Steve Silberman (digaman) Tue 2 Dec 08 07:33
Speaking of which.... 1 in 5 young Americans has personality disorder Fewer than 25 percent of college-age suffers get treatment, study finds updated 2:10 p.m. PT, Mon., Dec. 1, 2008 CHICAGO - Almost one in five young American adults has a personality disorder that interferes with everyday life, and even more abuse alcohol or drugs, researchers reported Monday in the most extensive study of its kind. The disorders include problems such as obsessive or compulsive tendencies and anti-social behavior that can sometimes lead to violence. The study also found that fewer than 25 percent of college-aged Americans with mental problems get treatment. One expert said personality disorders may be overdiagnosed. But others said the results were not surprising since previous, less rigorous evidence has suggested mental problems are common on college campuses and elsewhere. Experts praised the study's scope -- face-to-face interviews about numerous disorders with more than 5,000 young people ages 19 to 25 -- and said it spotlights a problem college administrators need to address. Study co-author Dr. Mark Olfson of Columbia University and New York State Psychiatric Institute called the widespread lack of treatment particularly worrisome. He said it should alert not only "students and parents, but also deans and people who run college mental health services about the need to extend access to treatment." Particularly vulnerable Counting substance abuse, the study found that nearly half of young people surveyed have some sort of psychiatric condition, including students and non-students. Personality disorders were the second most common problem behind drug or alcohol abuse as a single category. The disorders include obsessive, anti-social and paranoid behaviors that are not mere quirks but actually interfere with ordinary functioning. [...] http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28002991/
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permalink #112 of 207: Gary Greenberg (gberg) Tue 2 Dec 08 07:56
permalink #112 of 207: Gary Greenberg (gberg) Tue 2 Dec 08 07:56
Kids these days. Why, when I was in college, at least 75% of us were mentally ill.
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permalink #113 of 207: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Tue 2 Dec 08 08:10
permalink #113 of 207: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Tue 2 Dec 08 08:10
And the ones who weren't were stoned or drunk all the time.
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permalink #114 of 207: Steve Silberman (digaman) Tue 2 Dec 08 08:49
permalink #114 of 207: Steve Silberman (digaman) Tue 2 Dec 08 08:49
Gary, I was wondering what you think of ADHD. I can't tell you how many young people I've met in the past 10 years or so who tell me they were medicated for ADHD from a very young age on. At times, it seems like *every* bright, energetic, subversive kid I meet has been put in that category and medicated accordingly, starting at about age 12. Knowing what we now know about neuroplasticity, it wouldn't surprise me if this situation emerged as an Infamous Medical Horror Story someday, a national scandal. But I don't want to be Monday-morning quarterbacking some other family's difficult situation; what do you think is going on with ADHD?
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permalink #115 of 207: Gary Greenberg (gberg) Tue 2 Dec 08 08:53
permalink #115 of 207: Gary Greenberg (gberg) Tue 2 Dec 08 08:53
But seriously, this is a great example of how the diagnosis craze interacts with other forces in the culture--in this case the fear-based parenting that has parents (not to mention teachers and deans) and ultimately the children themselves constantly monitoring for signs of "illness," so that the terms of inner life increasingly become the terms of pathology and othner shrink-friendly deficit. Here's Francine Prose on this subject, in her novel Blue Angel. The protagonist's wife is a nurse in a student health center. There's a kid in the infirmary retching with the stomach flu. She's talking to her husband. "Stomach flu," says Sherrie. "Nasty. Not half so bad as it sounds. Ted, can you imagine? Kids come in here to puke. When we were their age, we knew enough to crawl off and dig ourselves a hole and throw up in private. No one went to student health unless we were overdsoing on LSD and seeing green snakes crawl up our legs." Of course, those kids come from homes, and in those homes, there is great fear that the children will have ADHD, depression, Asperger's--which are exactly the labels they will end up with if they venture into a doctor's or a psychologist's office. Sometimes, I would say the minority of times, the diagnosis is actually effective in some way. But most of the time, it's just a massive and unconscious collusion between doctor, parent, school, and drug company to attribute trouble to the brain. Personality disorders, by the way, are a much discredited diagnostic category. Insurance companies won't pay to treat them. They're the last holdover of Freudian psychology in the DSM, and they don't really fit in. I wouldn't be surprised to see the whole thing go away in the DSM-V. Of course, no one knows what will come out in the DSM-V because the American Psychiatric Association has cut off all communication with the outside world on the subject, making a secrecy oath a condition of serving on any of the committees that will write the book. Even the psychiatrists won't know till they see it.
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permalink #116 of 207: Steve Silberman (digaman) Tue 2 Dec 08 09:04
permalink #116 of 207: Steve Silberman (digaman) Tue 2 Dec 08 09:04
I asked the editors of the DSM-V a couple of very basic questions in email as a science journalist -- not even about particular entries! -- and never got a reply.
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permalink #117 of 207: Gary Greenberg (gberg) Tue 2 Dec 08 09:15
permalink #117 of 207: Gary Greenberg (gberg) Tue 2 Dec 08 09:15
AS for ADHD, I think that there are probably a relatively few kids out there who are constitutionally incapable of sitting still and paying the kind of attention to boring shit that you have to pay attention to in school. It's probably a dimensional thing rather than a categorical thing, a spectrum along which all of us are arrayed by temperament and experience. This is probably true of most psychiatric illnesses. Common sense lies in keeping as many people as possible out of the diagnostic category, erring on the side of normalcy, but economics dictates an entirely different approach. You can actually see this happen in Major Depressive Disorder, where the decision wa made, by a DSM committee, to fold all the old categories, like neurotic depression, into this one serious illness. Between the drug companies and the insurance industry, it was not very hard to sell the APA membership on this approach. But I digress. ADHD is another illness whose existence is validated by a drug-induced syllogism. Prozac makes you feel better, prozac is an antidepressant, therefore you must have been depressed all along. With ADHD, it's even more obvious. I discovered this firsthand about nine months ago. That's when the doctors finally convinced Susan and me that we should try some drugs on Joel, our ten-year-old son, who has some severe learning disabilities, but is very bright and not terribly hyperactive. That's a measure of how fucked up things get when you are in the maw of the medical-industrial complex, suffering and worried and desperate: that I, of all people, should have been convinced that I was doing my child a disservice by not seeing that he had a disease that needed treatment. So I got him a prescription for Adderall, which is amphetamine salts. Our family doc is a totally reasonable guy, for a doctor, and he prescribed the 10mg controlled release (long-acting) version. On the first day we gave it to Joel, I took it. It was absolutely shocking. My mind was focused on my work like a magnet on metal. It was painful to disengage. I sat at my desk for hours and hours. I was not in the least bit hungry or interested in playing the piano or fooling around with the chickens or any of my usual distractions. I didn't crave my midday nap. I wrote like crazy, doubled my daily output. I've taken a lot of drugs, but while this one wasn't mind-expanding, it was still, in its own way, amazing. The only thing that distracted me that day was the fact that my son, who weighs about half what I do, and who has zero experience with psychotropics, was at that very moment, taking the same drug AT THE SAME DOSE. When he came home, his pupils were LSD-wide. He was a little hyper, but mostly focused. Of course, neither of us could get to sleep that night. We eventually got some 5-mg, short-acting tabs and tried them for a few more days. But the more I thought about it, the more I turned against the idea. And not only because I wanted the amphetamines for myself. But for exactly the reason Steve mentioned--the one about the possibility of some eventual neurological disaster. It is nearly impossible to believe that a drug that could do what it does can be safe for a developing brain. It's probably not even safe for an adult brain at the normal dose, and it's certainly not safe at high doses. Amphetamines are used in the lab all the time to induce brain damage. And we know what happens to people after long term, high-dose use. No way I'm going to subject my kid to that, any more than I'm going to turn him on to pot or let him sniff glue. But I have no doubt that the drug would work, i.e., that it would help him focus. This idea, handed down from the fifties, that kids with ADHD have a "paradoxical reaction," to amphetamine and other stimulants like Ritalin, that indeed this response is what confirms that they were sick in the first place, is totally bogus. They're calmer because they're focused, not focused because they're calmer. That's what the drug does. That's why we pay it the big bucks. There may well be kids for whom a cost-benefit calculation comes down on the side of the stimulants. But the costs are probably way underrated--these are addictive, neurotoxic drugs, not to mention the hazards of telling a kid he's got a mental illness--and the benefits are contingent on the very bizarre social order we have wrought, and in particular on the nearly inhuman way we try to educate our young.
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permalink #118 of 207: Gary Greenberg (gberg) Tue 2 Dec 08 09:18
permalink #118 of 207: Gary Greenberg (gberg) Tue 2 Dec 08 09:18
>I asked the editors of the DSM-V a couple of very basic questions >in email as a science journalist -- not even about particular >entries! --and never got a reply. Yes. It's a total embargo. Secrecy as befits a fascist regime. The fact that they survived the homosexuality debacle is some kind of miracle--and the guy, by the way, who brokered the deletion deal ended up as the architect of the DSM-III, the one that changed psychiatry--and it made them arrogant. The good news is that eventually what will happen is that psychotherapy will get spun off from an increasingly bankrupt (morally and scientifically) neuro-psychiatry, and we therapists will be left alone to do the work we always wanted to do in the first place. For a lot less money, I should add, but still...
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permalink #119 of 207: Mr. Death is coming after you, too (divinea) Tue 2 Dec 08 11:30
permalink #119 of 207: Mr. Death is coming after you, too (divinea) Tue 2 Dec 08 11:30
Gary, can you offer a pointer to some reading on the results of amphetamine use on the brain? I know someone who was tipped over into bipolar disorder by a Ritalin overdose followed by a tricyclic; I'd be interested in understanding more about the actual science of the brain damage.
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permalink #120 of 207: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Tue 2 Dec 08 11:55
permalink #120 of 207: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Tue 2 Dec 08 11:55
First Grade, Second Grade, Third Grade...Twelfth Grade Our Nationally institutionalized Twelve-Step Program where we turn our children over to a higher power. Except in this program, certain numbing drugs (for ADHD) are cool. A bit ironic, sociologically speaking. Good stuff here, Gary!
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permalink #121 of 207: Gary Greenberg (gberg) Tue 2 Dec 08 13:10
permalink #121 of 207: Gary Greenberg (gberg) Tue 2 Dec 08 13:10
Yeah, they ought to just name it Adderall Deficit Disorder and be done with it.
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permalink #122 of 207: Gary Greenberg (gberg) Tue 2 Dec 08 13:25
permalink #122 of 207: Gary Greenberg (gberg) Tue 2 Dec 08 13:25
>Gary, can you offer a pointer to some reading on the results of >amphetamine use on the brain? I know someone who was tipped over >into bipolar disorder by a Ritalin overdose followed by a >tricyclic; I'd beinterested in understanding more about the actual >science of the brain damage. You and everyone else would be interested in the answer to that question. Unless we're talking about frank brain damage--lesions that can be seen, that have functional consequences, amnd that don't reverse, it's very hard to say anything about this, at least in human brains. And even then that stuff shows up mostly in autopsy. Brain imaging, like fMRI and SPECT, is pretty crude stuff--just a way to see blood flow, which in turn indicates brain activity. But Ritalin (which is not an amphetamine, but a different type of stimulant) can certainly kick off a manic episode. Sometimes that's how kids have their first manic episode. More to the point, sometimes that's how kids end up with a bipolar diagnosis, espcially since Bipolar II--in which you don't have to have a full-fledged mania or depression to qualify, just relatively intense moods--was invented. (Another drug-wags-the-disease story, this time about the new antipsychotic.) The kid gets the Ritalin, gets impulsive, does something way stupid--for instance, comes to school dressed as a penis for Halloween, as one of Susan's students did recently--and when confronted freaks out further, and the next thing you know they've graduated from Ritalin to Depakote, from ADHD to Bipolar, and psychiatry has a customer for life. AS for what to read, you could do worse than Peter Breggin's book about ADHD. It's very polemical, but full of interesting info, and many resources in the bibiliography. Talking Back To Ritalin is the name, a companion to TAlking Back to Prozac.
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permalink #123 of 207: Steve Silberman (digaman) Tue 2 Dec 08 16:20
permalink #123 of 207: Steve Silberman (digaman) Tue 2 Dec 08 16:20
Amazing stuff, Gary, and that story about your son was really poignant.
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permalink #124 of 207: Steve Silberman (digaman) Wed 3 Dec 08 10:37
permalink #124 of 207: Steve Silberman (digaman) Wed 3 Dec 08 10:37
Today's instant disease: Radiologists uncover, label new teen affliction By Deborah L. Shelton Researchers evaluating a new technique for locating and removing objects accidentally embedded in the body say they may have uncovered a new form of self-mutilating behavior in which teenagers intentionally insert objects into their flesh. Personnel at Nationwide Children's Hospital in Columbus, Ohio, report extracting 52 foreign objects that 10 teenage girls deliberately embedded in their arms, hands, feet, ankles and necks over the last three years, including needles, staples, wood, stone, glass, pencil lead and a crayon. One patient had inserted 11 objects, including an unfolded metal paper clip more than 6 inches long. The study, presented Wednesday at the annual meeting of the Radiological Society of North America in Chicago, is the first to report on this type of self-inflicted injury among teenagers, the researchers said. They call the behavior "self-embedding disorder." [...] More: http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/lifestyle/health/chi-embedding-disorder - 03-dec03,0,7552924.story
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permalink #125 of 207: Steve Silberman (digaman) Wed 3 Dec 08 10:45
permalink #125 of 207: Steve Silberman (digaman) Wed 3 Dec 08 10:45
> I have lots of experience helping people to form a coherent narrative about their lives. I think this is useful because so much of what has gone wrong is often the result of an incomplete story, one that can't encompass some important events or aspects of events that have actually occurred. But there is absolutely nothing scientific about this, and to the extent that medicine gains its authority by being scientific, there's nothing medical about it. It's effective, in its own way, but it's not effective like an antibiotic or surgery. I think you're defining the words "medical" and "scientific" too narrowly. Uncovering and/or weaving a coherent narrative has been at the heart of the healing process for thousands of years. In fact, it's only with the rise of big pharma, computerized testing, and the other tools of 20th century medicine that the exchange of stories between healer and patient takes a back seat to the _techne_, and not always to the benefit of the patient. If placebo is the most widely effective drug known to humankind, the active ingredient is skillful narrative. You may be selling that potent healing mechanism short.
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