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permalink #76 of 156: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Thu 12 Feb 09 09:14
permalink #76 of 156: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Thu 12 Feb 09 09:14
slippage (and much more *sublimely* to the point by Ed!!!)
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permalink #77 of 156: Steve Bjerklie (stevebj) Thu 12 Feb 09 09:15
permalink #77 of 156: Steve Bjerklie (stevebj) Thu 12 Feb 09 09:15
>>> What I'm saying is just that in changing oneself, one changes the world. <<< There was a time in my life when I believed this. Now, in my dotage (54 years and counting...), I accept that in changing oneself, one changes... oneself. One changes one's perception of the world, to be sure, but that's not the same thing as changing the world.
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permalink #78 of 156: Ed McClanahan (clammerham) Thu 12 Feb 09 09:58
permalink #78 of 156: Ed McClanahan (clammerham) Thu 12 Feb 09 09:58
SteveB, compared to mine, your dotage is the merest infancy. Now, on to Scott's question about Kesey's two great books: Cuckoo's Nest, I suppose, is the more important of the two, in terms of its influence on American culture and consciousness. But once Ken establishes the mental ward as the defining physical and metaphorical parameter of the novel, and installs Chief Broom's point of view at its center and McMurphy as its Christ-like hero, the story almost becomes a sort of set piece--an allegory, as he himself described it. From that point on, the plot and the characters are more or less ready-made, so to speak, and I'm guessing that, in the hands of so forceful and energetic a writer, the rest of the novel would've come together relatively easily. But Notion was an altogether different kind of animal, as I hope my favorite anecdote about Ken's writing--and my favorite parable about the creative process in general--nicely illustrates: In the Fall of 1962, when my then-new friend Ken was, as far as I knew, still basking in the early success of Cuckoo's Nest, at some writerly get-together at the Keseys' house on Perry Lane, Ken asked me to take home and read about 50 typed pages of very raw manuscript. At first glance, I saw that it was rife with typos and misspellings, and that he'd done a good deal of scribbling in the margins as well; if a student of mine up at Oregon State had turned in a draft in that condition, I might well have been unwilling to read it at all. So I figured this was just a tentative trial run (I still didn't know Ken well enough to know that he never did anything "tentatively"), and I really wasn't expecting much when I began reading it. Imagine my surprise! It turned out to be the staggeringly arresting opening scene, pretty much as it would eventually appear in print, of Sometimes a Great Notion! The novel begins, you'll recall, with a band of loggers standing around beside a small Oregon river, glumly looking across the rushing waters toward a gloomy, decrepit old house--the Stamper family's homeplace--, while, dangling before them from a cable that spans the river, is ... a severed human arm! "So what'd you think?" Ken inquired when I returned the manuscript a few days later. Of course I said all the things that you'd expect--wonderful beginning, dynamite writing, great stuff, blah blah blah--, but there was one thing, I admitted, that puzzled me: Why, in all those fifty pages, do you never tell us whose arm that is, and how it comes to be there? "Christ," Ken said, exasperated by my naivete, "how should I know whose it is! That's what I'm writing this book for--to find out!" In short, he was dangling the arm--and the mystery of it--out there in front of himself like a carrot in front of a mule, as a motivation for both his reader and for himself as writer. And sure enough, we don't learn the provenance of that arm until about 500 pages later, at the very end of the novel.
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permalink #79 of 156: Robin Russell (rrussell8) Thu 12 Feb 09 11:00
permalink #79 of 156: Robin Russell (rrussell8) Thu 12 Feb 09 11:00
Were there really millions of acid heads? Isn't that like counting each airline ticket sold as a flier?
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permalink #80 of 156: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Thu 12 Feb 09 11:24
permalink #80 of 156: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Thu 12 Feb 09 11:24
Cuckoos Nest, it has been suggested, gains its literary distinctiveness from the often hallucinated, narrative point-of-view of Chief Broom. [This POV is lost in the movie, which is reduced to a two-dimensional battle between McMurphy and Nurse Ratched]. The comparison between Keseys brilliant first novel from 1962, and the movie by Milos Forman, which won five academy awards in 1975, could be the basis for an entire college course comparing the virtues/ limitations of film vs. literature. Yet, as amazing as Cuckoos Nest is, I found Sometimes a Great Notion to be even more impressive for its compression of time, multiple points-of-view, and seeming fragmentation that all comes together so impressively at the end. When I spoke with Faye Kesey at the ED McCLANAHAN PRODIGAL PRANKSTER BARBECUE in November, I asked her about her husband's approach when writing Notion. (Its a curiousity I have about most writers I admire, and was similar to my first question to you in this discussion). Faye spoke about how Ken had all these notes and arrows pointing every-which-way in his den, but that he would go for thirty hours at a session because, as she said, it took him that long to get going so he could juggle all those balls at one time. The through-line to that novel, as suggested in the edition of the Northwest Journal called Kesey, is a single note taped near Kens typewriter. It said, simply: Try to make Hank give up. In other words, for all the kaleidoscopic meandering and multiple characters and story threads, everything in that 500 plus page tome is oriented toward defeating Hank Stamper, the heir-apparent of the family logging business in the forested valley of Oregon's coastal (and fictional) Wakonda Auga River. As relates to your great post about your personal relationship with Ken, Sometimes a Great Notion at its core is essentially about two aspects of Keseys own evolving personalitythe ruggedly individualistic alpha male/star athlete vs. the artistic, reflective/über-sensitive hipsterwhich played out through the two main characters, half-brothers Hank and Lee Stamper. Another thing Faye emphasized when we spoke, was how Ken had only taken one creative writing course while an undergrad at the Univ. of Oregon. His real love had been drama. This seems to underscore just how valuable and edifying Kens support base at Stanford must have been for his writing, both in helping him hone his understanding of craft, but also from having excellent readers, such as you, to help edit his early drafts. There has been fair bit of discussion in academic circles and the media about why Ken Kesey turned away from the novel in the late Sixties and, even when he wrote a third novel, Sailors Song, around 1990, he never regained the brilliance and ultimate cohesion of those first two novels. Stephen Tanner, a literary scholar, lamented in his book on Ken Kesey, and I paraphrase, how unfortunate it was that LSD truncated the career of a great novelist. Kesey himself insisted at the time of the Acid Tests that the novel was growing irrelevant and that other arts such as music were supplanting literature. He claimed that, with the Pranksters, he wanted to live life-as-art. When I spoke with Chuck Kesey at the great EDDIE McCELEBRATION, he talked about how disappointed his brother was at the shaky critical reception garnered from Sometimes a Great Notion. Why would Ken invest the energy to write more novels, Chuck suggested, if his best work was simply going to be panned? More so than Cuckoo's Nest, it's obvious that Ken poured everything he had into Notion, and was clearly spent, artistically, after it was finished. However which way he viewed it, Kesey clearly wanted a break from the rigors of creating fiction. One angle on this that I've never heard discussed is the role that the Stanford literary community played in the quality of Kesey's work. Obviously, Ken had strong regard for your opinion, Ed, when he asked you to read that early draft of Notion. Faye noted how Ken wasn't very steeped in literature/creative writing before he came to Palo Alto. You arrived in 1962 to Palo Alto, Kesey in the Fall of 1958, so obviously you had no involvement with Cuckoo's Nest which came out in '62. Likewise, we see in Cuckoo's Nest a highly conventional narrative structure (albeit with a highly unusual protagonist and narrative voice in Chief Broom). Kesey's flourishing literary chops certainly benefited from the workshopping it received from an excellent peer group of fellow writers at Stanford, and from his teacher/mentors in the Stanford program. Wallace Stegner and Malcolm Crowley usually receive most of the credit for Kesey's development, but Faye Kesey mentioned Richard Scowcroft as being the most influential of Ken's instructors at Stanford. So Ed, you spent several years in that same world in the '60s. What is your take on the role that this literary environment around Stanford had on helping Kesey "tame" his two masterpieces? Clearly, Ken never attained the same level of "polish" in his later writings.
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permalink #81 of 156: Steve Silberman (digaman) Thu 12 Feb 09 11:29
permalink #81 of 156: Steve Silberman (digaman) Thu 12 Feb 09 11:29
> the arm "I don't write to say what I think, I write to find out what I'm thinking." -- Gary Snyder
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permalink #82 of 156: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Thu 12 Feb 09 11:41
permalink #82 of 156: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Thu 12 Feb 09 11:41
Robin, the term "acid heads" implies regular repeated consumption. However, I would suggest that there were millions in the '60s and '70s who ingested LSD, Peyote, Mescaline, or psilocyben, the powerful hallucinogens. And many millions more have smoked what has, over the years, evolved into the highly potent psychoactive drug, marijuana. Number one cash crop in Kentucky, number two cash crop, behind apples, in Washington state. Yet, the way the whole phenomenon was prosecuted, obfuscated, distorted, we will never likely know the numbers, or, more significantly, have an honest appraisal of the impact of this class of drugs either collectively or on individuals. Interestingly, in one interview, Ken Kesey lamented the way this was all shut down, stifled by widespread criminal prosecution, never allowing the truth to surface. He pointed to himself and those in his scene as being the perfect test subjects for long term study on the impacts of LSD use. This, of course, never happened.
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permalink #83 of 156: David Gans (tnf) Thu 12 Feb 09 11:43
permalink #83 of 156: David Gans (tnf) Thu 12 Feb 09 11:43
Steve B, I think changing oneself is changing the world. Gandhi said it: "You must be the change you want to see in the world." You know how they say the Velvet Underground didn't sell many records, but everybody who bought one went out and started a band? I think the world has been changed by people who took acid. John Markoff wrote a book about psychedelics and Silicon Valley, the title of which escapes me but I think there's a topic about it here in the inkwell. See also Eric Christensen's excellent documentary, "The Trips Festival" <http://thetripsfestival.com/> - in addition to the film itself, the DVD has a panel discussion from the Mill Valley Film Festival with many of the participants talking about how that experience changed them.
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permalink #84 of 156: David Gans (tnf) Thu 12 Feb 09 11:47
permalink #84 of 156: David Gans (tnf) Thu 12 Feb 09 11:47
<scribbled by tnf Thu 12 Feb 09 11:47>
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permalink #85 of 156: David Gans (tnf) Thu 12 Feb 09 11:48
permalink #85 of 156: David Gans (tnf) Thu 12 Feb 09 11:48
> Try to make Hank give up. Isn't it true that the original working title of "Notion" was "Never Give a Inch"?
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permalink #86 of 156: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Thu 12 Feb 09 12:01
permalink #86 of 156: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Thu 12 Feb 09 12:01
Markoff's book is called What the Dormouse Said: How the 60s Counterculture Shaped the Personal Computer. "Never Give An Inch" was the name sometimes used for the movie version of the book staring Henry Fonda and Paul Newman.
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permalink #87 of 156: Steve Silberman (digaman) Thu 12 Feb 09 12:16
permalink #87 of 156: Steve Silberman (digaman) Thu 12 Feb 09 12:16
A propos of something, the Prankster footage has always struck me as the ultimate You Had to Be There phenomenon. After all the build-up in Wolfe's book about "the movie" and Kesey moving beyond mere prose, etc., and then all the layers of mythico-twistico accrual of legend among goggle-eyed Deadheads and whatnot, I've never seen Prankster footage that didn't make me feel -- well, bored and slightly uncomfortable. It's not well or even competently shot (I mean, with the solar wind blowing, all the camera people probably deserve Purple Hearts for even trying), and frankly, there ain't much going on onscreen of interest -- not the music, such as it is, not the raps, such as they were, and not the cosmic self-importance of it all. Cassady was fascinating to watch under any circumstances, like a be-bop Charlie Chaplin. But, er... well, it must have been fun! I remember when I was a kid, how much Wolfe's book was trashed as a sleazy NY poseur's take on these alchemical wizards who had already transcended language, but a few decades later, Wolfe's mere words still tingle on the page, while the footage looks like somebody's folks' Knights of Columbus rituals, but with tits and mud. Not to be a cynic in my dotage or anything, but ya know what I'm sayin'?
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permalink #88 of 156: Ed McClanahan (clammerham) Thu 12 Feb 09 12:37
permalink #88 of 156: Ed McClanahan (clammerham) Thu 12 Feb 09 12:37
I really don't remember, David; it may well have been. But that injunction is prominent in the book, of course, and when they brought the movie back to late-night tv after it bombed in the first run, that's what they re-titled it. (Sorry, Scott, for steppin' on your line.) I don't even remember the tits, Steve--and believe me, what with all that boredom and mud, I was lookin' for 'em!
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permalink #89 of 156: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Thu 12 Feb 09 13:03
permalink #89 of 156: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Thu 12 Feb 09 13:03
Fetchin' Gretchen the Slime Queen may have revealed her breastesses, and maybe there was footage of the classic scene in suburban Houston at Larry McMurtry's home when Kathy "Soon-to-be-named-Stark-Naked" Casano stepped off the Bus, well, stark naked. (Of course, I don't pay much attention to such visuals). Even though Kesey is said to have spent $70,000 on movie equipment, literary genius never translated into proficiency with the newer medium. Here the (adverse) impact of ingesting certain substances is more clear cut!
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permalink #90 of 156: Steve Bjerklie (stevebj) Thu 12 Feb 09 13:18
permalink #90 of 156: Steve Bjerklie (stevebj) Thu 12 Feb 09 13:18
In an interview Michael Douglas, who had the film rights to "Cuckoo's Nest" and who produced the film version, said Kesey couldn't write a screenplay, either. Well, specifically, he couldn't write a usable screenplay for "Cuckoo's Nest." "Here was my literary hero and what he gave us was so disappointing," I remember Douglas saying. (Larry Hauben and Bo Goldman wrote the screenplay that was used -- I think Dale Wasserman got a credit too, though I can't remember for sure.)
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permalink #91 of 156: Gary Lambert (almanac) Thu 12 Feb 09 13:36
permalink #91 of 156: Gary Lambert (almanac) Thu 12 Feb 09 13:36
Yeah, the promised epic "prankster movie" that keeps cropping up in Wolfe's book strikes me as kind of the 60s equivalent to Joe Gould's mythic "Oral History of Our Time."
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permalink #92 of 156: Steve Bjerklie (stevebj) Thu 12 Feb 09 13:43
permalink #92 of 156: Steve Bjerklie (stevebj) Thu 12 Feb 09 13:43
Home movies are pretty much home movies no matter who's in them or who shot them.
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permalink #93 of 156: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Thu 12 Feb 09 14:02
permalink #93 of 156: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Thu 12 Feb 09 14:02
The bad feeling between the Douglas family (Kirk purchased the performance rights for stage and screen) cut both ways. Chuck Kesey told me that Ken only made $150,000 total on Cuckoo's Nest, when the movie in the mid-70s grossed over $8 million. Any resentment by Ken there, you think? Ken would never go see the movie (unlike the play, as Ed pointed out!). He hated the choice of Jack Nicholson for Randle P. McMurphy. RPM was a big, cowboy of a man in the novel. And, again, the movie screenplay takes the protagonist of the novel (Chief Broom) and relegates him to the periphery as a member of ensemble in the mental ward (with Christopher Lloyd, Danny DeVito, et. al). I won't suggest that Kesey would have been proficient as a screenwriter. I don't know. Yet, for a screen adaptation, to think that an author would neuter his point-of-view character is ridiculous for Michael Douglas to have expected. The Director Milos Forman has stated that he didn't want some trippy Sixties voice ruining the story. I'm thinking that the Czech filmmaker didn't have the requisite skills to accommodate such a brilliant approach. The protagonist who changes at the end of the book is the Chief, not McMurphy or Nurse Ratched. Despite this, for what it is, the Hollywood movie is excellent, but if the novel can be viewed as a three-legged beast featuring RPM, Big Nurse, and Chief Broom, the screen version is a two-dimensional stand-off with the Chief serving as artifice.
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permalink #94 of 156: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Thu 12 Feb 09 14:03
permalink #94 of 156: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Thu 12 Feb 09 14:03
*the ensemble
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permalink #95 of 156: Gary Lambert (almanac) Thu 12 Feb 09 14:21
permalink #95 of 156: Gary Lambert (almanac) Thu 12 Feb 09 14:21
<scribbled by almanac Thu 12 Feb 09 14:21>
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permalink #96 of 156: Gary Lambert (almanac) Thu 12 Feb 09 14:23
permalink #96 of 156: Gary Lambert (almanac) Thu 12 Feb 09 14:23
The Broadway version with Kirk Douglas was by most accounts a pretty bad mess, but I was lucky enough to see a tremendous Off-Broadway production of the Dale Wasserman play in 1971 or thereabouts, with William Devane just about perfect as McMurphy. Danny DeVito was in that cast as well. I agree that there was something that Milos Forman fundamentally didn't get about the material.
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permalink #97 of 156: Ed McClanahan (clammerham) Thu 12 Feb 09 15:45
permalink #97 of 156: Ed McClanahan (clammerham) Thu 12 Feb 09 15:45
Ah well, you know the adage: Never trust a Prankster. But here's a thought: It's true that if it hadn't been for Wolfe's book, nobody would have been the least bit interested in Kesey's what-I-did-on-my-vacation film footage; but then it's also true that if Wolfe's book hadn't been about Kesey, nobody woulda read it anyhow! And by the way, Michael Douglas was something of a disappointment himself, inasmuch as he tried (or so I'm told) to weasel out of paying Ken anything at all for Cuckoo, even after it was obviously on its way to making unspeakable quantities of dough. (Yes, Douglas's father, Kirk, had bought the stage and screen rights fair and square back in 1961, for the princely sum of eighteen grand, but still ... ) My friend Pat Monaghan's high school production, Gary, was the progenitor of that off-Broadway version you saw. Hey, read all about it in Pat's story ("The Character") in Spit in the Ocean #7!
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permalink #98 of 156: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Fri 13 Feb 09 08:11
permalink #98 of 156: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Fri 13 Feb 09 08:11
Regarding the book and film versions of Cuckoos Nest, I wrote this for The Hippie Narrative, but didn't use it in the published book: Originally, Kesey was hired to write the screenplay, but his was not the one used for the movie. Michael Douglas produced the movie and chose Milos Forman to direct. In the late 60s before the Soviet crackdown on reforms in this satellite nation, Forman was a considered one of the most creative filmmakers in Czech cinema. When asked by an interviewer why he chose to treat the story objectively rather than through the eyes of the Indian, Keseys point-of-view character, Forman said: "I didnt want that for my movie, [ ] I hate that voice-over, I hate that whole psychedelic 60s drug free-association thing, going with the camera through somebodys head. Thats fine in the book, or on a stage, which is stylized. But in film the sky is real, the grass is real, the tree is real; the people had better be real too. You know, Im glad I didnt know the reputation of the book when I read it, so I didnt have this artificial reverence for the cult classic. And I think its much better that it was made now than in the 60s. After a certain time, all the distracting elements fall away, all the transitory psychedelic stuff. And we can follow what it is really about. My film is very simple. (VillageVoice 12/1/75) The choice of Forman to sidestep the P.O.V. of the Chief for his adaptation is understandable as the far easier approach, but to relegate this aspect of the novel to a psychedelic 60s drug free-association thing not only distorts the timing of Keseys involvement in a counterculture that had not yet emerged, it minimizes a highly innovative literary approach for conveying the struggle for sanity. Chief Broom was integral to Keseys story, not a distracting element. Forman calls it my movie, as though this justified the liberty he took to blatantly truncate, not scenes, but one of the three legs of Keseys story. Like so much written about the 60s, Formans statement reads like revisionist history. Again, there was no psychedelic counterculture at the time Kesey wrote Cuckoos Nest. However, the themes resonating in this novel do explain why the counterculture emerged a few years later. Perhaps Forman didnt have the cinematographic skills to effectively convey the perspective of the Chief, or the imagination and appreciation to capture the breadth of Keseys story. His comments are akin to a talented American filmmaker doing a movie about the Prague Spring by focusing only on the political tension between the Soviets and Czechs in 1968, but deeming the defiant artistic expression of this time and place as too transitory, too much of a distracting element to feature. If such a two-dimensional American film had been made about the Prague Spring, one can only imagine that Formans reaction would be similar to Keseys response to the simplified adaptation of his novel. Formans movie eliminated the interiority of Ken Keseys story. More than most comparisons between film and novel, this demonstrates, objectively, why literature resonates more deeply than film. The fact that the movie was so well received can be attributed to the powerful surface story rendered by Kesey, and the stalwart acting throughout the film.
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permalink #99 of 156: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Fri 13 Feb 09 08:26
permalink #99 of 156: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Fri 13 Feb 09 08:26
Ed, when you have a chance, I would still love to get your take on the question I posed up in post #80 about Ken's maturation (or lack thereof) as a novelist. I'm also very interested in hearing more about how you came into your own as a writer. You mentioned earlier, Hollis Summers and Robert Hazel, as excellent creative writing teachers that you studied under while an undergraduate at the University of Kentucky. Are there any other significant influences who shaped your skills as a writer, particularly those who helped you learn the core craft? Likewise, do you have any trusted readers, today, who you ask to give you the straight low-down on the developing drafts of your stories?
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permalink #100 of 156: Sharon Lynne Fisher (slf) Fri 13 Feb 09 09:25
permalink #100 of 156: Sharon Lynne Fisher (slf) Fri 13 Feb 09 09:25
Forman directed the movie of Hair, too, iirc.
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