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Bruce Pollock, By The Time We Got to Woodstock
permalink #76 of 143: Steve Bjerklie (stevebj) Thu 8 Oct 09 10:27
permalink #76 of 143: Steve Bjerklie (stevebj) Thu 8 Oct 09 10:27
I'm trying to find the adolescent rebellion in the '70s music of the Eagles, Steely Dan, Fleetwood Mac, Little Feat, the prog-rock bands, all of which dominated the rock landscape back then, and coming up empty. Even early Springsteen contained more adult angst than teenage rebellion (e.g. "The River"). As it happened, I was in college in the mid-late '70s, and the big-selling albums of the era -- "Rumours," "Fly Like An Eagle," whatever Blue Oyster Cult released, etc. -- very much appealed to the audience at the school I attended and at the other schools my friends attended. In fact, Fleetwood Mac's "Rumours" tour stopped at our campus and the show sold out in about four seconds. Sure, punk in NYC and the UK had that old-fashioned rebellion religion. But I didn't see any punks in college, not in 1976 or '77. But then, I wasn't at an artsy NYC school.
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permalink #77 of 143: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Thu 8 Oct 09 10:54
permalink #77 of 143: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Thu 8 Oct 09 10:54
Yeah, that spirit was so lacking in the rock of that era that kids who had never known earlier rock greeted the amusing but (let's be fair) only modestly talented Ramones as if they were something utterly extraordinary.
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permalink #78 of 143: Ed Ward (captward) Thu 8 Oct 09 11:10
permalink #78 of 143: Ed Ward (captward) Thu 8 Oct 09 11:10
Actually, the spirit was there, but it was dispersed so that it was spread over a whole lot of performers. It had its chapel meetings, however, in Creem magazine, for which I was honored to be West Coast Editor from '71 to about '77. Alice Cooper, early Kiss, Black Sabbath, a lot of Detroit acts, but most of them didn't get on AM -- or even a lot of FM -- stations, in favor of the more respectable acts Steve mentions. Creem, for the record, was first published in 1969, although it took a hiatus in 1970 and came back in January '71, if memory serves, in magazine instead of tabloid format.
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permalink #79 of 143: Bruce Pollock (bruce-pollock) Thu 8 Oct 09 12:40
permalink #79 of 143: Bruce Pollock (bruce-pollock) Thu 8 Oct 09 12:40
Just as a plug for my book, I mention the rise of Creem in my chapter on Detroit, one of the crucial locales of 1969, along with San Francisco, where the riot squad closed down Berkeley, New York, where the riot squad closed down Christopher Street, and Los Angeles, where Charlie Manson was running amok.
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permalink #80 of 143: Every Acid Dealer Gets Busted Eventually (rik) Thu 8 Oct 09 13:22
permalink #80 of 143: Every Acid Dealer Gets Busted Eventually (rik) Thu 8 Oct 09 13:22
"Even early Springsteen contained more adult angst than teenage rebellion (e.g. "The River")." "Born to Run", and "Thunder Road" were total teenage fantasies, giving an almost Wagnerian lift to the sentiments of "We've Got To Get Out Of This Place." I'm hearing a background sentiment here that seems like a resentment of growing up, which all of our heros had to do, and of dealing with adult themes.
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Bruce Pollock, By The Time We Got to Woodstock
permalink #81 of 143: Bruce Pollock (bruce-pollock) Thu 8 Oct 09 13:40
permalink #81 of 143: Bruce Pollock (bruce-pollock) Thu 8 Oct 09 13:40
Speaking of "We've Got to Get Out of This Place," did you ever hear Springsteen's on stage introduction to this classic? I still remember Springsteen from Max's Kansas City, circa 1973. But of course that's past the time frame for my book.
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permalink #82 of 143: Bruce Pollock (bruce-pollock) Thu 8 Oct 09 13:40
permalink #82 of 143: Bruce Pollock (bruce-pollock) Thu 8 Oct 09 13:40
Or maybe it was "It's My Life" I'm thinking of.
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permalink #83 of 143: Steve Bjerklie (stevebj) Thu 8 Oct 09 14:28
permalink #83 of 143: Steve Bjerklie (stevebj) Thu 8 Oct 09 14:28
You're right, <rik>, about "Born to Run" and "Thunder Road," of course. Both are great anthems of teenage rebellion. Yet they appealed to college students just as much, if not more, than teenagers at the time of their release. How many teens in '75 even knew what a "hemi-powered drone" was? But people in their 20s knew. "Born to Run" is indeed about teenage rebellion -- but it describes a period when Springsteen himself was a teenager rebelling, the mid-'60s, about 10 years before the song was recorded. Of the late 1960s, Bruce writes in #71 above: "I believe it was a time when the 'elite' taste, that is, the taste of the generation then in college, briefly became the mass taste." I don't agree; college kids were still determining mass taste in music, at least for the generations younger than 30, into the '70s.
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permalink #84 of 143: David Julian Gray (djg) Thu 8 Oct 09 14:53
permalink #84 of 143: David Julian Gray (djg) Thu 8 Oct 09 14:53
> college kids were still determining mass taste in music... Yes... these college kids were part of a vast international conspiracy ... either Zionist or Masonic... I can't remember now... No ... in the run up to our Annus Glorius, 1969 ... I was but a wee kid, barely even an adolescent and college kids were not much influencing my taste in music - My parents, my school choir director (a buddy of Malvina Reynolds and Pete Seeger) Scott Muni and Murry the K were influencing my musical tastes I was sharing a mass adolescent taste for a rock and roll whose growing sophistication was holding on to its kiddie audience for longer and pulling in others - was even becoming intellectual chic ... after all, when asked at that famous 1965(?) SF news conference who his favorite poet was - bad boy Bob Dylan responded: "Smokey Robinson" We should not forget that in 1969 FM based "underground" radio was barely out of its infancy and "Top 40" was still common ground for all fans of "popular" music - and Jefferson Airplane shared half hour sets with Glenn Campbell and Sammy Davis Jr, BJ Thomas, Elvis Presley, and Tom Jones... and, of course, The Beatles, Stones, Creedence... College students were not determining adolescent taste - they were sharing it - Not to deny that social thought leadership often comes from academia ... but rarely stays there ... The Grand Illusion that was mostly shattered by Manson/Altamont/ Kent State, etc. was not childhood dreams put assunder by inevitable maturity ... but the dream that *true maturity* ideal adulthood would be to cherish and preserve joy and wonder while and still keeping the toilet paper dry ... That ended up being far more difficult than we at first believed.
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permalink #85 of 143: Ed Ward (captward) Thu 8 Oct 09 14:56
permalink #85 of 143: Ed Ward (captward) Thu 8 Oct 09 14:56
And '80s. And yes, Bruce was describing teeenage rebellion through the lens of nostalgia, and it's this very use of nostalgia that's one of the things that makes him impossible for me to listen to. (Just one.) >>I'm hearing a background sentiment here that seems like a resentment of growing up, which all of our heros had to do, and of dealing with adult themes. And of ignoring the next generation of teenagers because they bought into a media-generated parody of "authentic" Boomer music. Slippage, the content of which I'll have to meditate on and post about tomorrow.
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permalink #86 of 143: Bruce Pollock (bruce-pollock) Thu 8 Oct 09 15:26
permalink #86 of 143: Bruce Pollock (bruce-pollock) Thu 8 Oct 09 15:26
I think a "media generated parody of authentic music" is the nature of the music business, with the authentic acts usually underground barely making a living and the MGPs riding the charts.
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permalink #87 of 143: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Thu 8 Oct 09 16:42
permalink #87 of 143: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Thu 8 Oct 09 16:42
The Fleetwood Macs of the mid 1970s sold an incredible number of records -- and I know, because I was working in a record store at that time. I don't think their success was due to any conspiracy. The really big acts were really talented, like 'em or not (and I liked some and not others). Some of the lesser acts who sold mere millions of records instead of 10s of millions were just mediocre products pushed by a great promotion and publicity machine. I was very happy when punk/new wave showed up, although I never had any interest whatsoever in punk. I did enjoy the new wave folks (itself a dubious marketing label) who could actually sing, play their instruments, and write songs.
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permalink #88 of 143: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Fri 9 Oct 09 00:51
permalink #88 of 143: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Fri 9 Oct 09 00:51
<scribbled>
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permalink #89 of 143: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Fri 9 Oct 09 00:54
permalink #89 of 143: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Fri 9 Oct 09 00:54
<"the "great rock and roll revolution" that started around 1965 (you might even say 1955) was all but over by the end of 1969"> <with the end of 1969 and the Music as Counterculture era, the music was then set free to be just music, not chained down by the hopes and dreams, politics and mythology of a generation.> I agree with so much of what you say about 1969 being in the thick of a pivotal shift, musically/culturally/politically. Where the mileage differs may come from a sense that you've established a thesis, and then set out to prove your point. If it's 1969, then why let yourself slop over into 1970 and Kent State, or begin in 1968. Why not start with "Sergeant Pepper's" and end with "Harvest"? And it really sucks that Dylan won't help you prove your thesis. He peaked too far ahead of the curve to help prove your point, (and then he had that phenomenal resurrection in 1975 with one of his all-time finest LPs, the allegorical "Blood on the Tracks"). It's apt that you've chosen a phrase from Joni Mitchell's brilliant micro-narrative of her generation for the title of your book. However, the story of that child of god off to set his soul free, despite all the surrounding disaffection, does not come off as a journey/revolution ended, but as a hopeful one that was just beginning. There was simply too much still sizzling, musically, in 1970, '71, and '72 to accept that the revolutionary cauldron had cooled in 1969. My concern is that your distillation risks oversimplifying this great and vibrant era (of several years).
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permalink #90 of 143: Bruce Pollock (bruce-pollock) Fri 9 Oct 09 06:44
permalink #90 of 143: Bruce Pollock (bruce-pollock) Fri 9 Oct 09 06:44
Scott, I had the year way before I had the thesis. But 1969 includes stuff from 1968 still popular in 1969 and stuff from 1970 written and recorded in 1969. I think some of the political repression of the Nixon regime was specifically aimed at the counter culture and rock music. And I think Kent State was a crushing blow, paving the way to the Nixon landslide in '72. As I say in the book, every year produces great and enduring music. I actually started working as a music writer in 1972, enabling me to keep up with much of it (at least through 2005). But, with the breakup of the Beatles and Dylan's move to country music, my feeling is 1969 was in the middle of a revolutionary shift back to (music) business as usual, removed from any sort of counter cultural trappings. It started to become the establishment. In some weird way this could explain Dylan's return to form in '75; he was no longer afraid of being nominated to lead a cultural revolution. He could just be a songwriter. Of course, for the average music fan, not making a living writing about it, the older you got, the more music became an escape and thoughts of revolution dwindled to misty nostalgia.
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permalink #91 of 143: Steve Bjerklie (stevebj) Fri 9 Oct 09 07:23
permalink #91 of 143: Steve Bjerklie (stevebj) Fri 9 Oct 09 07:23
You may want to re-think the gigantic generalization that concludes the post above, Bruce.
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permalink #92 of 143: Ed Ward (captward) Fri 9 Oct 09 07:33
permalink #92 of 143: Ed Ward (captward) Fri 9 Oct 09 07:33
The only thoughts of revolution I ever had were thoughts of a cultural revolution, particularly in the field of classical music. Of course, I was 21 years old and didn't know shit, but that didn't stop me from writing about it, and next thing I knew, some of that revolution was coming true, thanks to Terry Riley and Steve Reich (and, later, Phil Glass). I also supported some regrettably prog stuff until I woke up to how shallow it was. But, again, that didn't stop me making a fool of myself by writing about it. Making a fool of oneself is a constant danger when one writes about oneself and one's reactions to things, after all. And maybe it was the sort of music fans I hung out with, but most of them to this very day are fairly immune to nostalgia. Like me, they realize how destructive it is, both of your ability to remember your own past, and of appreciating what's good about the present. I've got a friend who's just turned 70 who's on my case constantly about new musicians he's discovered that he thinks I should listen to, and not because they sound like younger versions of people he dug when he was 25, either.
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permalink #93 of 143: Every Acid Dealer Gets Busted Eventually (rik) Fri 9 Oct 09 07:55
permalink #93 of 143: Every Acid Dealer Gets Busted Eventually (rik) Fri 9 Oct 09 07:55
A man after my own heart.
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permalink #94 of 143: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Fri 9 Oct 09 07:57
permalink #94 of 143: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Fri 9 Oct 09 07:57
I've given up on new music not because I'm nostalgic or think it's all tripe, but because for a given level of effort, I find it much easier to learn about great music made before I was born, or music I simply never heard about as a kid. So my explorations have been backwards in time - the jazz of the 1950s and early 60s and jazz, country and popular music of the 20s, 30s and 40s. But all that said, I do listen to plenty of rock music from the late 60s and early 70s for the same reason I listened to it then -- it's good! There are a few things I burned myself out on (much of the Stones catalog, for example), but for the most part, I still enjoy all my favorite records from middle school and high school.
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permalink #95 of 143: Bruce Pollock (bruce-pollock) Fri 9 Oct 09 08:02
permalink #95 of 143: Bruce Pollock (bruce-pollock) Fri 9 Oct 09 08:02
Steve, Ok, maybe not the average music fan. Just the average person.
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permalink #96 of 143: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Fri 9 Oct 09 08:15
permalink #96 of 143: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Fri 9 Oct 09 08:15
Thanks for your clarification, Bruce. When you say "stuff still popular", you bring up the point of shelf life. Certain music resonated over time. Just because Highway 61 Revisited or Sgt Peppers came out in 1965 and 1967, doesn't limit them to a short window of influence. The huge garage band phenomenon beginning in 1966 especially, where adolescents wanted to be the next Beatles and Stones, yielded many new groups. I would also suggest that Dylan set the stage for the ascendence of the more folk-based singer-songwriter model that included work that peaked in 1971, 1972 with Sweet Baby James/ Tapestry/ Blue/ After the Gold Rush/ Harvest/ Deja Vu. One might even suggest that Marvin Gaye's social maturation within the Motown model peaked in 1971/72 with "What's Going On?" When Joni Mitchell wrote "Big Yellow Taxi", the Beatles "Sgt Peppers", or Gaye "Mercy Mercy Me," their respective "commerical" success was solidified to the point where they could write whatever they damn well pleased. Few artists could break into the market featuring music infused with strong social commentary. When using music as a lens, it's dangerous to point to Nixon's re-election as proof of anything with regard to the counterculture, since the countercultural phenomenon of youth was never the dominant societal force in America at ANY time. In fact, the conservative 'revolution' of 1994 can be viewed as a response, in part, to the perceived "demons" of the counterculture. "Ohio" in 1970 was anthemic, but to a minority (of disaffected youth). As an artist, NY peeked in 1971 and 1972 with "After the Goldrush" and "Harvest". He said, specfically, that he wanted to combine the best of Dylan and Hendrix. His successful fusion was, arguably, part of a still ascending musical revolution. That is my point here. You make many great observations, but are truncating things too soon, IMO. "Tapestry", with one foot in the rock n roll early Sixties ("Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow) and another at the apex of this singer-songwriter boom of the early 70's, was revolutionary in a more subtle way. Carole King's I-am-a-natural-woman reflected the rise of second wave feminism as much as any album of the era. ("Oh, Baby I'm Reddy for Love" has just entered my mind as the testosterone-laden answer to "I Am Woman")? And what if my Western Washington was the media center of the world, and not NYC: I came upon a soggy sod He was walking along the road And I asked him, where are you going And he this told me Im going on down to Betty's farm Im going to join in a grungy cry Im going to camp out on the Sky going to try an get my drugs free We are all wet We are molding And we've got to get ourselves Under the bramble Then can I slog beside you I have come here to lose the fog And I'll share just like a dog, my herb's burning Well maybe it'll the micro beer Or maybe the coffee, man I don't know who l am But you know life is for reverting We are all wet We are molding And we've got to get ourselves Under the bramble By the time we got to Sky River We were twenty-five thousand strong And everywhere there was song and celebration And I dreamed I saw the Grateful Dead Riding their bus into the bog And they were turning to 'the other one' Just for our nation We are buzzed Billion year old mud We are molding Caught in the Boeing bargain And we've got to get ourselves Some high tech jargon...
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permalink #97 of 143: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Fri 9 Oct 09 08:33
permalink #97 of 143: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Fri 9 Oct 09 08:33
my apologies to Joni... (but if Jimi had come back home for that '68 Sky River Rock Fest and Lighter Than Air Fair, there would have been breakfast in bed for more like 40,000)
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permalink #98 of 143: Every Acid Dealer Gets Busted Eventually (rik) Fri 9 Oct 09 09:17
permalink #98 of 143: Every Acid Dealer Gets Busted Eventually (rik) Fri 9 Oct 09 09:17
"Certain music resonated over time. Just because Highway 61 Revisited or Sgt Peppers came out in 1965 and 1967, doesn't limit them to a short window of influence." Not so sure about those two. While I loved "Highway 61 Revisited" when it came out, it no longer has the power to reach me. For me, it was a point in time, and now sounds like a very bright guy with a typewriter and a lot of methedrine. Dylan inspired a lot of songwriters to go non-linear, and he made people like Robbie Robertson, Paul Simon, Elvis Costello, and Donald Fagen possible, but he also gave a lot of songwriters, including the Beatles, to toss out word salad and unfinished songs. To me, "Highway 61" was a lot of fun when I was a kid, but nothing on it actually moves me. When Fagen sang, "I cried when I wrote this song..." I already had tears in my eyes. Ditto "Sgt Pepper. When it was new, I found it amazing. I used to lie with my head between my two stereo speakers trying to hear every detail. But in retrospect, it's simply a document showing what you could do with unlimited cash and the best studios of its day. And yet, much of their earlier stuff still interests me, and "Eleanor Rigby" holds up even today. Of course, there's not one damned guitar on it. Do you really think those albums have legs and would sell today without thr repackaging?
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permalink #99 of 143: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Fri 9 Oct 09 09:35
permalink #99 of 143: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Fri 9 Oct 09 09:35
I agree with both of those judgments. Plenty of Beatles songs and Dylan songs have the power to move me, but those two albums with some exceptions ("A Day in the Life") are mostly amusing historical artifacts.
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permalink #100 of 143: Ed Ward (captward) Fri 9 Oct 09 09:37
permalink #100 of 143: Ed Ward (captward) Fri 9 Oct 09 09:37
But he said "influence," and I think that influence was in full swing, from both of those albums, for better or worse, in '69.
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