inkwell.vue.372
:
Emily Gertz, From the Climate Talks in Copenhagen
permalink #76 of 132: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Tue 29 Dec 09 08:27
permalink #76 of 132: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Tue 29 Dec 09 08:27
Given the cost of tackling global warming, I'm pretty convinced we'll let it slide. People in general and politicians in particular have pretty short time horizons, and "we're pretty sure something really bad is going to happen many years from now" is not an argument designed to galvanize the human race. It is true that when the economic stakes are relatively small, we can occasionally take dramatic action in time to avert total catastrophe (banning the taking of whales, for example - although Japan, Iceland, and Norway would probably get back to it in a New York minute if they could). I'm not utterly misanthropic and pessimistic, but I think the most likely outcome is that some degree of climate change will join the ever-growing list of human-caused environmental problems confronting us (and our descendants) in the next few centuries. When all is said and done, the planet will adapt. I think humans will survive, but that current population levels will prove to be unsustainable and will end up being much smaller, one way or another.
inkwell.vue.372
:
Emily Gertz, From the Climate Talks in Copenhagen
permalink #77 of 132: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Tue 29 Dec 09 09:39
permalink #77 of 132: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Tue 29 Dec 09 09:39
"climategate" buzz It's fascinating that the human "theft" of arguments over the debated cause-and-effect of climate change has received more "buzz" than the non-debatable melting of the polar ice cap. "Climategate" is a peculiar, but telling, choice of terms at the forefront of this argument. It says to me that the human political machinery linked to an economic status quo is far more powerful than any collective will to change human behavior in the face of irrefutable planetary change. In other words, by borrowing from the politically-charged term "Watergate", our focus is easily redirected toward the ugly noise of politics-as-usual. Watergate and Climategate, as terms, shed more light on sordid behavior (theft to steal an election/theft to steal a critical debate) than they do about the larger concern itself (the democratic process/the sustainability of our planet/species). The interest of the industrialists who want no governmental constraints is not to be underestimated. There will be future obfuscations thwarting political resolve as well. The media is the gateway to the "buzz". With Nixon resurrected from the dead, this word that was chosen to frame the debate seems to be impacting the outcome of any political resolve. Ironically, the term "Climategate" is a subtle reframing of the issue in a way that makes actual behavioral (political) change less likely in the short term. (An odd sort of cause-and-effect that, likewise, isn't provable). I am likewise betting that it will take actual catastrophe for the human will to galvanize on this issue.
inkwell.vue.372
:
Emily Gertz, From the Climate Talks in Copenhagen
permalink #78 of 132: Steve Bjerklie (stevebj) Tue 29 Dec 09 09:52
permalink #78 of 132: Steve Bjerklie (stevebj) Tue 29 Dec 09 09:52
A certain kind of catastrophe, though. Catastrophes that bear on People Who Aren't Like Us don't seem to move hearts, minds and governments. Witness New Orleans after Katrina, Southeast Asia after the tsunami. Sure, individuals and some organizations were greatly moved and mobilized in those two instances, but I've got no confidence that if similar catastrophes struck both those places again, the government response would be much different than it was earlier.
inkwell.vue.372
:
Emily Gertz, From the Climate Talks in Copenhagen
permalink #79 of 132: Emily J. Gertz (emilyg) Tue 29 Dec 09 10:02
permalink #79 of 132: Emily J. Gertz (emilyg) Tue 29 Dec 09 10:02
Well, one important thing to keep in mind is that politicians are largely uninvolved in the "bread and butter" aspects of the climate treaty process. Those are mostly conducted by diplomats and their teams -- the delegates. So there are some layers of institutional padding between them, and what the elected officials and appointees have to deal with on a quotidian basis when some newly cooked-up controversy comes along. That said, Copenhagen offered up a great demonstration of how things can turn on a dime when the highest-level officials DO arrive on the scene, as when Hillary Clinton showed up on Thursday to offer US support for a USD 100bn climate finance fund. The conditions: the major developing economies must acquiesce to transparency and monitoring of their emissions cuts, and the nations receiving the aid must allow outside monitoring and evaluation of how and how well the money is spent. (Part of the US position all along, but heretofore without much carrot attached.) Clinton's dramatic announcement addressed a key demand of the G77 group of developing nation. It jerked the conference back to life. (One of my tweets around that time was to observe that the atmosphere in the Bella Center became something like, "Hei! We can haz klimat deal?") Aside from the ethical considerations, I imagine the goal and possible effect of that was to begin the process of prying the G77 apart from China, India and Brazil in the negotiations. And don't doubt for a second that she was paving the way for Obama's arrival the next day. The UNFCCC exists to deal politically with climate change, not to debate its existence. The rest of the world is pretty much over that debate, while the US continues to take it seriously. So, if releasing the hacked emails didn't directly effect Copenhagen, why do it? I want to emphasize that this is all educated guesswork, but my answer would be: to revive fear, uncertainty and doubt about the reality of global warming in the American polity; chill support for US involvement in global action; and lower public support for a climate bill in 2010. Here are two known facts: There are trillions of dollars of profit at stake here for fossil energy interests, which have backed climate disinfo campaigns in the US for over a decade. Now look at the order of events: - Hacked emails purporting to debunk climate science are revealed to world in November. (They don't do any such thing, but willfully ignorant or cynical readings of them are used to bolster wingnuttery in the usual quarters: Climate Depot, Watt's Up With That, the Office of Sen. James Inhofe, the editorial page of The Wall Street Journal, etc.) - Obama goes to Copenhagen in mid-December. Returns with a weak, inconclusive political statement in lieu of a climate deal. - Story goes into circulation this week that there's a "revolt" among Democratic senators to try and push the climate legislation out to 2011, or to kill cap and trade. This supposedly shocking dissension comes from lawmakers who are already known opponents of the carbon-control aspects of the proposed bills, and are allies of fossil energy interests. To the best of my present knowledge, fossil energy money is not behind either phenomenon. But if someone, someday, uncovers that it was, that won't shock me.
inkwell.vue.372
:
Emily Gertz, From the Climate Talks in Copenhagen
permalink #80 of 132: Emily J. Gertz (emilyg) Tue 29 Dec 09 10:03
permalink #80 of 132: Emily J. Gertz (emilyg) Tue 29 Dec 09 10:03
whoops, two slips; I was addressing jonl's post directly.
inkwell.vue.372
:
Emily Gertz, From the Climate Talks in Copenhagen
permalink #81 of 132: Emily J. Gertz (emilyg) Tue 29 Dec 09 10:17
permalink #81 of 132: Emily J. Gertz (emilyg) Tue 29 Dec 09 10:17
Jacques: Emily, when the White House announced that Obama would go to Copenhagen at the end of the conference instead of at the beginning, there was much speculation that this meant there must be some sort of major deal in the works for Obama to take part in [but] Obama had to go through considerable exertion to emerge with anything at all. So do you have any sense why he shifted the time of his visit? --- Obama initially planned to time his visit to his trip to Oslo. IIRC, around the end of November, India and China made some noises about limiting their emissions. And some of the Annex II nations were talking more firmly about coughing up climate finance money. So the White House announced that there seemed to be some momentum toward productive talks, and Obama's schedule changed. Now that I've been to the COP, it's clearer to me that had Obama dropped in during the first week, rather than coming for the more critical talks at the end, it would have been a pretty significant slap in the face of the UNFCCC, the EU nations, Japan, and maybe the UN itself.
inkwell.vue.372
:
Emily Gertz, From the Climate Talks in Copenhagen
permalink #82 of 132: Jacques Leslie (jacques) Tue 29 Dec 09 10:38
permalink #82 of 132: Jacques Leslie (jacques) Tue 29 Dec 09 10:38
Emily, how confident are you that the developed nations will live up to their $100 billion pledge and that China, India etc. will allow genuine emissions monitoring? My impression is that it's a lot easier to make these promises at conference time than to live up to them afterwards.
inkwell.vue.372
:
Emily Gertz, From the Climate Talks in Copenhagen
permalink #83 of 132: Christian De Leon-Horton (echodog) Tue 29 Dec 09 11:33
permalink #83 of 132: Christian De Leon-Horton (echodog) Tue 29 Dec 09 11:33
I suspect we're likely to see those pledges either reneged, forgotten, or re-labled as previously promised grants. Even though we surely could afford it, the sense is that the economy is bad and ecological problems can be put off for the future. Of course, sooner or later the cost of not fixing the problem is going to seriously outweigh the cost of actually taking action.
inkwell.vue.372
:
Emily Gertz, From the Climate Talks in Copenhagen
permalink #84 of 132: Searchlight Casting (jstrahl) Tue 29 Dec 09 13:00
permalink #84 of 132: Searchlight Casting (jstrahl) Tue 29 Dec 09 13:00
Gary, i have not called anyone names here, your post is way over-the-top. And the only doubts being expressed by serious climate scientists are about the rate of onset of the serious effects, not about whether global warming is caused by human activity. That's settled, man. As far as the "suicide" remark, those exact words were being used by delegates from Africa and island nations to describe the acceptance of a 2C rise. Do you even notice how people from those nations are reacting? Your doubts about whether human activity is the cause is one way to mark you as an American, as the US is about the only place where such doubts are taken seriously. To the others posting since Gary: good discussion.
inkwell.vue.372
:
Emily Gertz, From the Climate Talks in Copenhagen
permalink #85 of 132: Emily J. Gertz (emilyg) Tue 29 Dec 09 14:35
permalink #85 of 132: Emily J. Gertz (emilyg) Tue 29 Dec 09 14:35
I didn't find Gary's post over the top. Just saying. Acknowledging how science works, the nature of knowledge, is not the same thing as expressing "doubts about whether human activity is the cause" of climate change. jstrahl, you really seem intent on bashing...someone. Is it me? Do you get that we have no fundamental disagreements about the likely direction of global warming? Or is that "likely" just too infuriating for you to think it through? ANYway... The countermove to that Politico article and its progeny begins: The Hill: Dozens of Democrats want to move a climate change bill, including centrists http://bit.ly/8svVDQ
inkwell.vue.372
:
Emily Gertz, From the Climate Talks in Copenhagen
permalink #86 of 132: Steven McGarity (sundog) Tue 29 Dec 09 16:20
permalink #86 of 132: Steven McGarity (sundog) Tue 29 Dec 09 16:20
I do hope also that some sort of carbon reduction plan is in the works for completion early in 2010. It seems like a win-win when wrapped in with green industrial development projects. Interesting Hill article. Thanks. One thing I have been considering recently is how to include the climate and energy issues in a greater environmental understanding. We are, it seems to me, at great risk far sooner than climate change from environmental degradation both on land and in the seas. I know for example the ocean does more CO2 stabilization than any forests on land. And yet we are busy killing it. We seem to not be aware enough of the issues. To me it is all of a single cloth. I don't see how we can break out climate problems say and disregard everything else that is putting life on earth as we know it in jeopardy. All that said I was at my VA clinic today and a old fellow walked in stamping his feet to clear the snow and say. "Hey, how about this global warming." Somehow we need to figure out a plain folks way to sell these issues.
inkwell.vue.372
:
Emily Gertz, From the Climate Talks in Copenhagen
permalink #87 of 132: Jacques Leslie (jacques) Tue 29 Dec 09 20:39
permalink #87 of 132: Jacques Leslie (jacques) Tue 29 Dec 09 20:39
Part of the problem, I think, is that no political system I know of, certainly not the American one, rewards politicians for thinking long-term. In the U.S. they're used to thinking in the very short run, which is to say, until the next election. Of course, this inability to act according to our long-term interests (particularly when that is at the expense of short-term interests) is built into not just our political systems but humans in general. So's who's most alarmed by climate change? those nations most immediately threatened by it, such as the island countries and Bangladesh. China, on the other hand, faces the melting of the glaciers that feeds its rivers, but that's a few decades off, and in the meantime its leaders are more concerned about making sure the country's economy continues to churn out cars and furniture and cashmere sweaters. In the U.S. it's much the same the understanding of climate change for most people is still largely intellectual and abstract, not as much of a crisis as, say, the weak economy or an aspiring airplane-exploder.
inkwell.vue.372
:
Emily Gertz, From the Climate Talks in Copenhagen
permalink #88 of 132: Jennifer Powell (jnfr) Tue 29 Dec 09 20:42
permalink #88 of 132: Jennifer Powell (jnfr) Tue 29 Dec 09 20:42
I'm afraid that <mcdee> is right in his post <76>.
inkwell.vue.372
:
Emily Gertz, From the Climate Talks in Copenhagen
permalink #89 of 132: Jennifer Powell (jnfr) Tue 29 Dec 09 20:43
permalink #89 of 132: Jennifer Powell (jnfr) Tue 29 Dec 09 20:43
Slippage by <jacques>, who is also right.
inkwell.vue.372
:
Emily Gertz, From the Climate Talks in Copenhagen
permalink #90 of 132: Searchlight Casting (jstrahl) Tue 29 Dec 09 21:32
permalink #90 of 132: Searchlight Casting (jstrahl) Tue 29 Dec 09 21:32
Emily, the "over the top" remark was aimed at what Gary said about me calling people all sorts of names. And he did express doubts about global warming being caused by human activity or even if it is whether it's harmful. Bashing you? Why would i have said "good discussion" in regards to all the posts after Gary's if my intent was to bash you??
inkwell.vue.372
:
Emily Gertz, From the Climate Talks in Copenhagen
permalink #91 of 132: Linda Castellani (castle) Wed 30 Dec 09 17:02
permalink #91 of 132: Linda Castellani (castle) Wed 30 Dec 09 17:02
Please don't feed the troll. This discussion is too interesting to be derailed.
inkwell.vue.372
:
Emily Gertz, From the Climate Talks in Copenhagen
permalink #92 of 132: Jacques Leslie (jacques) Wed 30 Dec 09 19:16
permalink #92 of 132: Jacques Leslie (jacques) Wed 30 Dec 09 19:16
Emily, given the strong appointments (Chu, Holdren) involving climate change that Obama made a year ago, did you get any sense of dissension within American ranks over our tepid negotiating position in Copenhagen? Surely those who agree with McKibben that 350 ppm is the upper limit of tolerable carbon emissions can't be pleased with the Administration's stance.
inkwell.vue.372
:
Emily Gertz, From the Climate Talks in Copenhagen
permalink #93 of 132: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Wed 30 Dec 09 21:38
permalink #93 of 132: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Wed 30 Dec 09 21:38
Emily, out of curiosity, did the Danes make a point of letting the participants know that, while they are a small European nation, melting Greenland is actually a territorial part of Denmark?
inkwell.vue.372
:
Emily Gertz, From the Climate Talks in Copenhagen
permalink #94 of 132: Searchlight Casting (jstrahl) Thu 31 Dec 09 14:22
permalink #94 of 132: Searchlight Casting (jstrahl) Thu 31 Dec 09 14:22
http://www.culturechange.org/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=583 &Itemid=1 Albert Bates, of Global Ecovillage, well-known author on climate and ecology, on Copenhagen conference, which he went to.
inkwell.vue.372
:
Emily Gertz, From the Climate Talks in Copenhagen
permalink #95 of 132: What is going to amuse our bouches now? (bumbaugh) Fri 1 Jan 10 08:26
permalink #95 of 132: What is going to amuse our bouches now? (bumbaugh) Fri 1 Jan 10 08:26
Thanks for the pointer, jstrahl.
inkwell.vue.372
:
Emily Gertz, From the Climate Talks in Copenhagen
permalink #96 of 132: Emily J. Gertz (emilyg) Fri 1 Jan 10 10:10
permalink #96 of 132: Emily J. Gertz (emilyg) Fri 1 Jan 10 10:10
> Emily, given the strong appointments (Chu, Holdren) involving climate change that Obama made a year ago, did you get any sense of dissension within American ranks over our tepid negotiating position in Copenhagen? I didn't have any direct contacts within the delegation, so I don't know the answer to that firsthand. My guess would be that they were wholly professional when on the record, because that is the kind of person from the State Department who speaks on the record and makes it all the way to an international negotiations meeting. I do know one of the TckTckTck campaign's "trackers" who does/did get to know the delegation: Ben Jervey. The impression I got from him was that there was no overt distress about the "tepid negotiating position," in the sense that it didn't change in response to NGO positions around 350 degrees, extent of carbon cuts, etc. Here's that interview: http://blogs.oxfamamerica.org/index.php/2009/12/28/negotiator-trackers-open-up -mysteries-of-climate-talks/
inkwell.vue.372
:
Emily Gertz, From the Climate Talks in Copenhagen
permalink #97 of 132: Emily J. Gertz (emilyg) Fri 1 Jan 10 10:36
permalink #97 of 132: Emily J. Gertz (emilyg) Fri 1 Jan 10 10:36
Albert Bates makes so many suppositions in that piece that I can't read it as a piece of reporting. It's an understandable expression of frustration, but he's drawing all his conclusions from secondary reporting. He's also picking and choosing the stories that mesh with his worldview, which seems to be predominantly about President Obama letting him down. Beyond that I'll shut up about it, since Mr. Bates did not come by personally to post his questions or opinions.
inkwell.vue.372
:
Emily Gertz, From the Climate Talks in Copenhagen
permalink #98 of 132: Emily J. Gertz (emilyg) Fri 1 Jan 10 10:40
permalink #98 of 132: Emily J. Gertz (emilyg) Fri 1 Jan 10 10:40
>Emily, how confident are you that the developed nations will live up to their $100 billion pledge and that China, India etc. will allow genuine emissions monitoring? My impression is that it's a lot easier to make these promises at conference time than to live up to them afterwards. Well, as the song says, "Same as it ever was." Isn't this sort of promise always easier to make than to keep? More informatively, someone noted above that the rich nations might use already-allocated aid funding to cover climate finance. This very issue is of big concern to some of the developing nations and their advocates, like Oxfam International, who want all of it to be new funding, not redirected from other programs.
inkwell.vue.372
:
Emily Gertz, From the Climate Talks in Copenhagen
permalink #99 of 132: Emily J. Gertz (emilyg) Fri 1 Jan 10 11:21
permalink #99 of 132: Emily J. Gertz (emilyg) Fri 1 Jan 10 11:21
As for the Danes and Greenland, I don't have a ton of insight into that. I didn't see or hear all that much about Greenland during the COP; maybe more of that was going on in the interstitial events leading up COP15 -- the talks in Barcelona, Bangkok, etc. The Danish government was making "average Danes" available to reporters who wanted to do interviews, and there was at least one Greenlander among them. But I wasn't doing that kind of very general human-interest reporting. In a sense, my view of what happened at the talks was very colored by what my actual assignments were. So much is going on on so many tracks. If I go to the next conference, probably I'll find it easier to take more in from different directions. Perhaps I should explain how I came to be covering Copenhagen: Back in October, I'd been offered expenses from a particular party to blog from both Barcelona and Copenhagen. But the terms were not suitable from a journalistic pov: the editorial emphasis was about advocacy first, reporting a far second. So I declined. By mid-November, I had no COP15 assignment in hand, and didn't expect to go. Then Oxfam America called. They knew me and my work from the September UN Climate Summit and the Pittsburgh G20: Oxfam co-sponsored the ClimateVoice and G20Voice projects to diversify coverage of these sorts of high-level global confabs, and I was part of those groups of bloggers/reporters. (Grist and Change.org carried my coverage.) Oxfam America offered to pay my expenses to go to COP15, to focus on covering the humanitarian impacts of climate change. Editorial involvement in how I wrote my pieces would be extremely limited, they said, and I'd be free to file original work for other outlets as well. In addition to whatever else I saw fit to cover, Oxfam America effectively assigned me to interview and write about the "climate witnesses" -- men and women from places around the world where the impacts of climate change are already changing the environment and destroying their ways of life. Oxfam has been sponsoring these individuals to come and speak at various climate events around the world. These editorial terms seemed wholesome enough from a professional pov to accept. Special access to the climate witnesses offered a particularly attractive opportunity to write about people and issues that were would be otherwise under-reported during the talks. It's really a textbook example of how independent reporter/bloggers often manage to get to events like this. It's not particularly "traditional." But imagine it had been called the "Oxfam America Fellowship for Reporting on the Human Impacts of Global Warming." Then everyone would congratulate me for landing it.
inkwell.vue.372
:
Emily Gertz, From the Climate Talks in Copenhagen
permalink #100 of 132: Emily J. Gertz (emilyg) Fri 1 Jan 10 11:22
permalink #100 of 132: Emily J. Gertz (emilyg) Fri 1 Jan 10 11:22
[[She said a little defensively.]]
Members: Enter the conference to participate. All posts made in this conference are world-readable.