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permalink #76 of 174: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Wed 26 May 10 06:21
permalink #76 of 174: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Wed 26 May 10 06:21
As Michelle points out in the book, we've pretty much thrown the "paid your debt to society" concept out the window.
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permalink #77 of 174: Ari Davidow (ari) Wed 26 May 10 07:11
permalink #77 of 174: Ari Davidow (ari) Wed 26 May 10 07:11
There seems to be =some= recognition of the problem. Here in Massachusetts marijuana use has been decriminalized, and there is a strong movement to erase the "ever committed a felony" box from employment applications, along with other ideas to make it possible for those who have been through this nightmare get a fair chance. Given how corrupt and hysterical our state political process is, I am not super hopeful, but at least the issues are come up, people are reading the stories in the newspaper. It's a start from a state that just replaced Ted Kennedy with Scott Brown.
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permalink #78 of 174: Sharon Lynne Fisher (slf) Wed 26 May 10 07:27
permalink #78 of 174: Sharon Lynne Fisher (slf) Wed 26 May 10 07:27
Oh, the "new version on passing" angle is very powerful. We've got something like that going on in Oregon -- a guy who worked for the state was just discovered to be using the identity of a dead person, and they have no idea who he really is. <http://www.idahostatesman.com/2010/05/13/1191804/still-no-mystery-man-id-in-or e.html>
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permalink #79 of 174: David Albert (aslan) Wed 26 May 10 09:04
permalink #79 of 174: David Albert (aslan) Wed 26 May 10 09:04
> There seems to be =some= recognition of the problem. Here in Massachusetts ... we have a probation department whose chief was just suspended for patronage hiring. What he was NOT suspended for was how he ran the department for the last umpteen years, which was to find every excuse to get kids back in court on probation violations, whereas previous directors did a lot more to get kids help for technical violations rather than send them back to prison.
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permalink #80 of 174: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Wed 26 May 10 09:17
permalink #80 of 174: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Wed 26 May 10 09:17
In D.C. we have the opposite problem - a youth justice system which repeatedly lets genuinely dangerous criminals out, or lets them escape and does nothing about it. I believe 9 homicides this year have been committed by people under their supervision. That's one reason I think the focus on the War on Drugs makes the most sense. It will just let the air out of the whole mess. Right now, we have mixed the dangerous and the harmless (and not a few people who are just crazy) together into a huge gulag. "Drug Peace" would immediately and vastly reduce the number of harmless people who end up "in the system." Of course, it would also raise a lot of thorny issues about what to do with the millions of people already confined or under supervision, or simply marked as felons.
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permalink #81 of 174: Ari Davidow (ari) Wed 26 May 10 09:19
permalink #81 of 174: Ari Davidow (ari) Wed 26 May 10 09:19
<aslan> correctly notes that in MA we have other problems. Still, I am more hopeful that I would feel in, say, California (or Mississippi).
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permalink #82 of 174: Michelle Alexander (m-alexander) Wed 26 May 10 10:14
permalink #82 of 174: Michelle Alexander (m-alexander) Wed 26 May 10 10:14
Decriminalizing or legalizing marijuana nationwide would be a huge step in the right direction. Most people are unaware that the War on Drugs has been focused on rounding people up for minor, non-violent drug offenses. In fact, during the period of the greatest expansion of the drug war, nearly 80 percent of the increase in drug arrests was for marijuana possession! There are people doing life sentences in the United States for marijuana possession. I doubt any of those folks doing life for smoking pot are white, though it would be interesting to find out. I do have a concern, though, about these reform efforts. I worry that marijuana will be decriminalized, some mandatory sentences will be reduced, and other similar reforms will be achieved without a national conversation/debate about the role of race in getting us into this mess. If these important reforms are achieved without us learning the basic lessons of our history, and without the movement-building work that is necessary to build a more compassionate society -- one that openly embraces people of all colors -- we will repeat this history one way or another. Mass incarceration will morph and change form, just like convict leasing replaced slavery, or it will be reborn, just like mass incarceration replaced Jim Crow. Reforms are critically important, but not nearly enough. We need a major shift in public consciousness in order to break our nation's habit of viewing groups, defined largely by race, as unworthy of our collective care and concern. We must learn to care about people like the Scott sisters, for example. Never heard of them? Hopefully that will change soon. Their story is a classic example of how callous we, as a society, have become - disposing of black people quite casually. A grassroots campaign is underway to free the Scott sisters and I'm praying this campaign sheds some light on the many forms of injustice that take place every day in our system without much notice. The Scott sisters were wrongly convicted in Mississippi of a robbery netting less than $50. No one was injured. Neither of them have prior convictions, and yet they were sentenced to double life terms! As tragic as their case is, they are not alone. As the book describes, there are thousands of people behind bars who are innocent, and thousands more who may have committed crimes but have been given sentences that are unconscionable. See http://freethescottsisters.blogspot.com/search/label/Case%20Summary. As important as the Scott sisters campaign is, a much bigger challenge looms. If we are going to end mass incarceration as we know it, we are going to have to learn to care about people who are actually guilty of crimes -- not just those who are wrongly convicted. That's the challenge -- a challenge civil rights activists have shied away from in the past. The necessity of meeting that challenge is why the work of the Innocence Project -- as important as it is -- barely touches the tip of the iceberg.
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permalink #83 of 174: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Wed 26 May 10 15:25
permalink #83 of 174: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Wed 26 May 10 15:25
I certainly agree. It's not just about drug laws, and it's not just about people who were wrongly convicted. Back when criminals were seen as most likely to be lower-class whites, there was a whole pop culture narrative of redemption. It centered on the idea that bad companions, or bad luck, or the wrong woman (of course, they had to blame the woman) could lead you astray and into a life of crime. I know this stuff all seems corny and ancient history now, but there was Father Flannagan with his "there is no such thing as a bad boy" slogan, and the saying I mentioned above about having paid one's debt to society. If you'd done your time, you deserved another chance. Since the default setting for criminality became blacks suddenly it's all about "super-predators." We've been acting as if everyone who ever committed a crime is a maniacal sociopath. As Richard Pryor observed in one of his routines, there are definitely people who should be in prison to protect the rest of us (he met a few while shooting a film in a prison). But we no longer want to make the distinction between the truly dangerous and those who have simply made bad choices, become addicted to alcohol or other drugs, picked the wrong boyfriend, etc. We just punish, and when that doesn't work, we punish some more.
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permalink #84 of 174: die die must try (debbie) Wed 26 May 10 15:25
permalink #84 of 174: die die must try (debbie) Wed 26 May 10 15:25
>If we are going to end mass incarceration as we know it, we are going to have to learn to care about people who are actually guilty of crimes -- not just those who are wrongly convicted. Yes. I feel very strongly about that. It was powerful to read parents writing compassionately about the person who killed their child, and to feel we are all connected, break down the us/them model, and the idea that you are more than your worst action.
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permalink #85 of 174: David Wilson (dlwilson) Wed 26 May 10 16:14
permalink #85 of 174: David Wilson (dlwilson) Wed 26 May 10 16:14
Is there the political will to take the mass incarceration complex on? If it doesn't come from the civil rights organizations who have numerous problems with the issue then from whom? In your book Michelle, you take them to task for their risk-aversion.
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permalink #86 of 174: Gail Williams (gail) Thu 27 May 10 08:32
permalink #86 of 174: Gail Williams (gail) Thu 27 May 10 08:32
Quick aside -- somebody pointed out these Democracy Now interviews with Michelle. For anybody who has not yet gotten the book, these are excellent introductions to the issues and Michelle's work on the issues: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AB3TqS2zxM part one, and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRyzrhe9ElI part two. How the drug war was introduced, with racial code words, as part of the GOP's "Southern Strategy," and how Obama's election is part of an illusion of progress as more and more young African American men are prevented from ever voting after being caught getting high... well spoken summaries of points from the book.
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permalink #87 of 174: Michelle Alexander (m-alexander) Thu 27 May 10 12:51
permalink #87 of 174: Michelle Alexander (m-alexander) Thu 27 May 10 12:51
I recently wrote a piece for CNN.com's "census" series, in which they were encouraging people to describe how they "identify" on the census or in society more generally. I wrote that I now choose to identify as a "criminal" and that I thought we'd all be better off if we openly acknowledged our own criminality, rather than assuming that criminals can only be found in ghettos. See http://edition.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/05/18/alexander.who.am.i/index.html. I received a wide range of responses - mostly wildly enthusiastic or extremely hostile (such is the nature of the blogosphere). Those who were hostile, as well as some who were lukewarm, seemed annoyed that I lumped together people who commit felonies with "normal" people who break the law. It was clear that, despite major changes in how felonies are defined under state and federal law, most people still assume that a person labeled a felon is necessarily a very serious criminal - a murderer, rapist or child molester. I informed some of the people who e-mailed me that possession of marijuana can be charged as a felony in most states, and that prosecutors exercise their discretion in a highly racially biased manner - charging African Americans with felony drug possession and whites with misdemeanors (when they're arrested at all) -- but most were incredulous. They refused to believe that people were serving long sentences for felony drug possession. I assume these folks were white; they probably don't know anyone who has ever been convicted of felony drug possession or felony welfare fraud (lying on a food stamp application), etc. Not surprisingly, they also resisted the suggestion that prosecutors exercise their discretion in a racially biased manner. In the book I don't address violent crime much, a fact I now regret. Because people's views about violent crime color their perspective (pun intended), much more should have been said about the ways in which the drug war has helped to fuel violence in poor communities of color and create so many of the problems it is supposedly designed to solve. Fortunately, sociologist Todd Clear has written an excellent book on this subject -- Imprisoning Communities: How Mass Incarceration Makes Disadvantaged Communities Worse.
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permalink #88 of 174: Maria Rosales (rosmar) Thu 27 May 10 13:34
permalink #88 of 174: Maria Rosales (rosmar) Thu 27 May 10 13:34
I don't think your correspondents are necessarily White--I know some middle-class Black folk who think criminals are a wildly disparate group from them. Also, your story reminded me a student (White) who has talked to me more than once, casually, about her marijuana use. When she was applying to law schools, she was upset because she had to say that she had been in trouble in the past for breaking the law--the application explicitly said that traffic violations counted. She said, "I have to check that box, as if I were a felon!" I said, "You've told me yourself that you've committed felonies--you just haven't been caught." Then I had to soften that some, since she is a student and was freaking out.
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permalink #89 of 174: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Thu 27 May 10 13:56
permalink #89 of 174: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Thu 27 May 10 13:56
It's funny you guys mention this. I was idly thinking today what would have happened to me if I'd actually been caught and convicted of every crime I've ever committed. Most people commit crimes pretty regularly, typically starting with under-age drinking (not to mention the millions of teenagers who commit statutory rape). Pretty much everyone I knew in college could have been convicted of felony drug possession. And so on. There was a guy on the WELL a few years ago who had a pretty good rap about how we should concentrate on "predatory crimes" - crimes that actually involve victimizing other people. He later went off in a completely different direction, but I thought it was a good suggestion.
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permalink #90 of 174: David Wilson (dlwilson) Thu 27 May 10 15:21
permalink #90 of 174: David Wilson (dlwilson) Thu 27 May 10 15:21
My friend, the manager for my apartments, read part of the introduction to the book. He put it down and said "I don't need to read this. She's talking about criminals. They break the law. They should go to jail." I can't get him to consider picking the book back up. He is 67, black, grew up in Memphis, migrated to Chicago and eventually to Minneapolis. I take him to be a reliable source because he doesn't censor himself and he is willing to talk freely about race without much of an agenda or any defensiveness. He is a working class guy who took his high school education and worked as a short order cook, a boxer, a laborer, and various clerk positions.
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permalink #91 of 174: those Andropovian bongs (rik) Thu 27 May 10 16:02
permalink #91 of 174: those Andropovian bongs (rik) Thu 27 May 10 16:02
I suspec that the generation gap has something to do with his disdain, as well as the fact that the dynamics Michelle descibes occurred after he became mature and a solid citizen.
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permalink #92 of 174: Evan Hodgens (evan) Fri 28 May 10 08:50
permalink #92 of 174: Evan Hodgens (evan) Fri 28 May 10 08:50
I don't think a lot of people have any idea how trivial a "crime" can result in a felony conviction. Here is Virginia (the asshole of the universe when it comes to law'n'order), if you get into a fistfight and give someone a bloody nose, you were be charged with "malicious wounding", a felony, that carries a 3 year sentence. We have become a complete nanny state. As a friend of mine recently said, "when I was a kid, we'd get into fights, the cops would come, give you a stern lecture and send you on your way". Now, they arrest you and charge you with a felony for what they once would have considered a juvenile nuisance not worth their time to deal with.
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permalink #93 of 174: Michelle Alexander (m-alexander) Fri 28 May 10 19:24
permalink #93 of 174: Michelle Alexander (m-alexander) Fri 28 May 10 19:24
Why did we become so tough and merciless with our children (and with each other)? Why did we become so punitive, even in response to relatively minor crimes? Why do we think of drug abuse as a crime, rather than a public health issue? Race looms large in the answers to each of these questions, though policymakers - progressives and conservatives alike - tend to avoid the racial dimension and focus on other factors. Race is the elephant in the room. Mass incarceration, and the overwhelmingly punitive approach to drugs and crime, would not exist but for the racialization of crime and drugs in the media and political discourse. It is inconceivable that anything remotely comparable to the drug war would have occurred if the primary targets had been defined as white and middle class. If the majority of young white men were under the control of the criminal justice system in many urban areas, we'd have a revolt on our hands that would make the Tea Party look tame. We wouldn't be asking ourselves "what is it about white culture that causes white kids to deal dope?" No, we'd be asking, "what's wrong with our laws and policies"? And "what's wrong with the police?" And "why has the Supreme Court allowed this to happen?" And "how could we do this to our young people?" Those questions aren't being asked today because we, as a nation, care less about black and brown young people than white young people. We think differently about them and assume they deserve different things. We assume we need to "get tough" on black and brown kids, and we fail to recognize the complicated racial origins of that overwhelmingly punitive impulse. Given all that, what accounts for black people who support "get tough" measures? And why did the older African American man mentioned earlier refuse to consider what my book had to say, once he suspected it might be sympathetic towards "criminals"? And why has the civil rights community offered relatively little resistance to the emergence of this vast new system of racial control? Indeed, what excuse do civil rights leaders have for their preoccupation with affirmative action, as millions of people of color have been branded felons and ushered into a permanent racial undercaste? These are the questions I hope to explore this weekend. In the book I argue that many African Americans and civil rights organizations have been complicit with this new system of control, but that doesn't mean they support it. It's a distinction that makes a difference. But as civil rights activists found during the 1960s, weak-kneed African Americans and silent white liberals often pose a greater threat to the cause of racial justice than the Ku Klux Klan.
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permalink #94 of 174: Evan Hodgens (evan) Fri 28 May 10 22:39
permalink #94 of 174: Evan Hodgens (evan) Fri 28 May 10 22:39
>Race looms large in the answers to each of these questions Race does loom large in the answers to each of these questions, yet I have come to learn that in trying to deny that that is the case by the establishment, we have now begun to achieve a "race-less justice system" in which we are now bending over backwards to "prove" we treat everyone just the same - like those awful white people need to be locked up just like those awful black people for minor "crimes" to keep the social system in control. (BTW, kudos to <mcdee> for his excellent hosting of this topic, and for his invention of the phrase "War On Some Drugs", which he to date has not been acknowledged for, as far as I can remember.
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permalink #95 of 174: Michelle Alexander (m-alexander) Sat 29 May 10 06:56
permalink #95 of 174: Michelle Alexander (m-alexander) Sat 29 May 10 06:56
Yes, I'm frequently asked "Isn't the answer getting tougher on white youth who violate drug laws?" My law students often argue strenuously for more police sweeps of fraternity houses on the grounds that it would be "fair." It's true, of course, that if the effects of the drug war were more broadly felt, there would be more resistance to it. And it's also true that white youth have the opportunity to experiment with drugs and sell to their friends without being labeled a felon and relegated to a permanent undercaste. But arguing that more people should suffer unnecessarily, so things will "be fair," is like arguing everyone should starve, because some people do. Why not feed the hungry, and stop putting people in cages for minor drug crimes? I'll return to black support of get tough tactics in a moment . . .
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permalink #96 of 174: those Andropovian bongs (rik) Sat 29 May 10 07:30
permalink #96 of 174: those Andropovian bongs (rik) Sat 29 May 10 07:30
What DO you see as a working, action-oriented, strategy for changing this?
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permalink #97 of 174: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Sat 29 May 10 08:24
permalink #97 of 174: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Sat 29 May 10 08:24
The key, I think, is having some despised and/or scary group which is associated with the use of the drug(s) in question. With alcohol, it was Catholic big-city immigrants. The Prohibition movement was pretty much 100% Protestant and predominantly small town and rural. With LSD it was hippies (as Art Linkletter's death reminded us this week). Blacks, especially young urban blacks, have become the default scary/despised people of 21st century America, with an honorable mention going to Latinos. So yes, in that sense, the key is definitely race. The suggestion of cracking down equally on whites is one I made jokingly above. It's a "heighten the contradictions" strategy that has a certain perverse appeal, but trying to head in the right direction by turning in the wrong direction is a pretty peculiar idea. Also, I have no faith in America's basic rationality on this subject. Are we really sure that Americans wouldn't come to accept the idea that we must imprison millions of white college students, accountants, computer programmers, waitresses...? After all, they are drug users!
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permalink #98 of 174: Ed Ward (captward) Sat 29 May 10 10:24
permalink #98 of 174: Ed Ward (captward) Sat 29 May 10 10:24
That's a good point, and strengthened by the "fact" that the blacks were equated with crack cocaine, a drug supposedly so powerful that once you've tried it, you can't stop til you're dead. And it's cocaine, and we've known for ages what that does to black people!
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permalink #99 of 174: Michelle Alexander (m-alexander) Sat 29 May 10 12:08
permalink #99 of 174: Michelle Alexander (m-alexander) Sat 29 May 10 12:08
"What DO you see as a working, action-oriented, strategy for changing this?" Good question. The first step, I believe, is consciousness-raising - i.e., truth telling - especially in the communities most impacted by mass incarceration and especially in groups and forums where progressives dwell. People often tell me that consciousness-raising in those crowds is a waste of time, because it amounts to "preaching to the choir." I disagree. One of the reasons there's been so little resistance to this system of control to date is because the very people who are most impacted, as well as their natural allies, believe so many of the myths and stereotypes that serve to rationalize this system. Most of the people who claim to care about racial justice don't really know the truth about how this system operates, and why it was constructed in the first place. In my view, the pervasive ignorance among the very folks who must build and lead this movement is the biggest stumbling block to successful movement-building work today. In this vein, I keep thinking about Maria's comment a couple days ago. She pointed out, correctly, that I was mistaken to assume that all the people who were insisting that drug possession is never a felony were probably white. I think my assumption was partly based on their hostility, which smacked of deliberate indifference to racial suffering. Nevertheless, her point was right on the mark. So many middle class African Americans - and so many people in the civil rights community - have little clue how the criminal justice system actually works, as opposed to how it's depicted on shows like Law and Order. Most people don't know that incarceration rates have little or nothing to do with crime rates in the United States; or that the overwhelming majority of the increase in imprisonment during the past 30 years has been for non-violent and drug related offenses; or that law enforcement gets rewarded in cash for the sheer numbers of people they arrest for drug crimes, no matter how minor the offense. And most people don't know that state and local law enforcement agencies are entitled to keep up to 80 percent of the cash, cars, and homes of suspected drug offenders - even if they're never convicted of a drug crime. And I find most people find it hard to believe that in major urban areas, like Washington, D.C., large majorities of young black men are under correctional control simply because they live in a virtual police state. Ellis Cose, a reporter for Newsweek, wrote a column shortly after my book was released in which he praised my effort to raise consciousness on issues of bias in the system, but dismissed as implausible my claim that the majority of young black men were under the control of the criminal justice system in many large urban areas. When I read his article I was upset and annoyed that he could dismiss the facts so casually, simply because he found them impossible to believe. The Sentencing Project was first to report a decade ago that 1 in 3 young African American men were under correctional control nationally. Numerous other reports have pointed out that the national data actually obscures a much more dismal reality in many large urban areas. In D.C., for example, it was reported several years ago that 3 out 4 young black men, and nearly all those in the poorest neighborhoods could expect to serve time in prison. Another report found that nearly two-thirds of young black men in Baltimore were under correctional control. How could Ellis Cose casually dismiss this data as implausible? But after taking a deep breath, I reminded myself that I, too, once found it hard to believe that this system was truly functioning in the manner that it does. Often I have to remind myself to be patient, and to remember that I didn't see what is hidden in plain sight for a long time myself. So I think consciousness raising is the most important first step. If the people who are most affected by mass incarceration and their allies don't "get it," successful movement-building work is next to impossible.
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permalink #100 of 174: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Sat 29 May 10 13:14
permalink #100 of 174: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Sat 29 May 10 13:14
I agree emphatically. I have been interested in the drug war and related issues for years, but I really had no idea about any of this until I read your book. I thought I had a general sense of how bad things were, but actually they're much worse.
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