inkwell.vue.390
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Kate Veitch, Trust
permalink #126 of 186: Kate Veitch (kate-veitch) Thu 26 Aug 10 00:40
permalink #126 of 186: Kate Veitch (kate-veitch) Thu 26 Aug 10 00:40
Back to the discussion about young Finn. In answer to <castle's question about whether I had experienced that kind of ill-treatment myself as a child, the answer, fortunately for me, is no. I was treated, in fact, with a good deal of respect by my parents and teachers, and although I was not a popular child, being more interested in reading than socialising, I was not harassed or bullied. I was also tall for my age, and strong, and had several brothers so I knew how to fight! As well, I was blessed with an oldest brother who was a great friend and ally, who looked out for me without being smothering. (Simon is still one of my closest friends.) But nevertheless, I still found the powerlessness of childhood oppressive. I hated having to do what I was told even it made no sense; I hated not being able to run my own life. All this is why I left home and school at 15, and have supported myself ever since. One hears children being spoken to roughly all too often, without witnessing outright abuse. Even the over-indulgence of children which has become more the mode in Australia and the US, where they are loaded down with material objects, yet given no responsibility within the family other than to consume is in itself a kind of oppression. I'm very interested in children's experiences and internal lives, and it's always seemed to me that the first job of parents and caregivers is to observe the child in front of them not the child they THINK should be there, or the child they WISH was there and through that careful observation, discern what it is that that particular child needs. Okay, that's me, and general stuff: now Finn.
inkwell.vue.390
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Kate Veitch, Trust
permalink #127 of 186: Kate Veitch (kate-veitch) Thu 26 Aug 10 01:14
permalink #127 of 186: Kate Veitch (kate-veitch) Thu 26 Aug 10 01:14
I based Finn largely on the son of a friend of mine and let me say immediately that my friend is NOT the model for Finn's mother Angie. I met Adam when he was about six, and his mother had just moved back to Melbourne with her two children, having split up with their father. She was having a hard time coping, and Adam already had the reputation of being a "very difficult child". Indeed, his behaviour was such that his mother even asked a mutual male friend if he felt it was possible that a child could be "possessed". Given that she was far from a religious nut, this seemed to indicate ... well, a serious problem. My friend clearly needed help with her kids, so I put my hand up to look after Adam and his older sister one night a week. I would pick them up from their school, have them overnight, take them to school again the next day. My own son, btw, was about 20 at this time; he said, kindly, that I was nuts. I think everyone thought that, but really, I felt that Adam's main problem was that he had never been given the structure and routine which he that particular child so wanted. The "schedule" of homework, meal, reading, etcetera, which Finn recites with relish to Stella-Jean in the park, is exactly what I devised with Adam, and which he welcomed with an alacrity that astonished even me. In response to Cynthia's question about ADD and Asperger's: yes, I think Finn MAY have mild Asperger's, or some other slight brain-functioning differentness. Interestingly, the most recent review of Trust here in Australia quite baldly described Finn as "autistic", which is drawing too long a bow. And yes, the whole autistic spectrum and Asperger's thing has become quote the dysfunction de jour here in Australia too, though I'm not the person to ask about over-medicating and so on. If I have any theory about this apparent "epidemic", it's that most children need more physical play and activity than they're getting these days, far less time in front of screens, and far less processed food. Most children would be better off with more structure, and a more responsible role within their families. But that wouldn't do anything much for medical researchers, doctors, insurers, or drug companies. A child in a situation like Finn's needs above all to be understood, as well as loved. I have no doubt that Angie loves her son, but she does NOT understand him (in part because she has never developed the inner resources to understand herself). Thus, "no succour", as in Wickett's quote (#123). EXCEPT from Stella-Jean, and, in the end, the hope that Angie has reached a new level of maturity within herself and thus is able to provide for Finn the true security he needs. Phew!
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Kate Veitch, Trust
permalink #128 of 186: Harmless drudge (ckridge) Thu 26 Aug 10 07:37
permalink #128 of 186: Harmless drudge (ckridge) Thu 26 Aug 10 07:37
There's a line in the book about all the D-words that cluster around a kid like Finn: deficit, disorder, diagnosis. I like that line a lot, and I like that he didn't read as if he was written to fit a set of symptoms. He is written as a particular weird, difficult kid, good at some things and bad at others. There might be a diagnosis that it would help to hang on him, and there might not. The parts about Stella-Jean and Finn are written so much from their points of view that they are almost like a children's fantasy story breaking into an adult novel. To Finn, Gabriel is right out of a nightmare. (One of the reasons that Gabriel appears only a type is that no one really sees him. Stella sees one sort of fantastic figure, Finn another.) Robo-boy is a more important figure in Finn's life than most people are. For Stella, Bali is a magic place where everything can be set right. This is correct representation, I think. Childhood is a place where one deals with giants and talking animals -- that is, adults and other children -- every day.
inkwell.vue.390
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Kate Veitch, Trust
permalink #129 of 186: Harmless drudge (ckridge) Thu 26 Aug 10 07:51
permalink #129 of 186: Harmless drudge (ckridge) Thu 26 Aug 10 07:51
Stella-Jean is very real, but I've never met anyone the least bit like her. In my experience, young women that smart and that self-willed have decided that since most rules for people their age clearly don't apply to them, none do, and are experimenting with sex, drugs, or both. Stella-Jean appears to be too busy for that. She has a vocation. In fact, she appears to be a Balinese businesswoman who has somehow wound up in a middle-class Australian family. This is plausible -- she is plausible enough to be almost visible -- but I have never seen anyone like that. I have seen a few teenagers who wanted to work, but they didn't know it and denied it furiously. Where did you get her? Did you put her together out of bits of other people and memory? Do you know someone like that? Did she appear in the course of writing the book?
#123 is pithily my experience.
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Kate Veitch, Trust
permalink #131 of 186: Harmless drudge (ckridge) Thu 26 Aug 10 09:34
permalink #131 of 186: Harmless drudge (ckridge) Thu 26 Aug 10 09:34
Oh, and please do call me Coleman.
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Kate Veitch, Trust
permalink #132 of 186: Linda Castellani (castle) Thu 26 Aug 10 18:24
permalink #132 of 186: Linda Castellani (castle) Thu 26 Aug 10 18:24
I am embarassed to admit how long it took me to understand that post, wickett, but having gotten it, I want to say how much I appreciate it.
inkwell.vue.390
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Kate Veitch, Trust
permalink #133 of 186: Kate Veitch (kate-veitch) Fri 27 Aug 10 02:32
permalink #133 of 186: Kate Veitch (kate-veitch) Fri 27 Aug 10 02:32
In answer to Coleman's question about Stella-Jean: "Where did you get her? Did you put her together out of bits of other people and memory? Do you know someone like that? Did she appear in the course of writing the book?" In the acknowledgements you'll find the name Allie Buckner; she's at least part of the model of S-J, and the daughter of friends in SF. Other daughters, unacknowledged, fit there too: Ruby, Simone ... It's that thing of the author of scavenger again. And there are others, including girls who are friends of my son's ... But really, when you say: "Stella-Jean appears to be too busy for that. She has a vocation. In fact, she appears to be a Balinese businesswoman who has somehow wound up in a middle-class Australian family" Well once again Coleman, you've nailed it. That is EXACTLY where I'd come to feel S-J belongs - as she herself clearly feels. And that is where I feel she'll be; is now, indeed. But I guess that's the difference between fiction and memoir: one combines and heightens attributes, to fit one's fictive purposes.
inkwell.vue.390
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Kate Veitch, Trust
permalink #134 of 186: Kate Veitch (kate-veitch) Fri 27 Aug 10 02:38
permalink #134 of 186: Kate Veitch (kate-veitch) Fri 27 Aug 10 02:38
Re Finn's oppressor, the odious Gabriel: You may be interested to know that I had in earlier drafts written in Gabriel as a much bigger character, with various scenes which were form his point of view, and which elucidated his back story. Both my Australian and US editors urged me to cut these sections, partly because the ms had become too damn lengthy, and also because they both DETESTED being inside Gabriel's head. I've never tried anything harder than to write from inside the mind of a person who is cruel to a child. And I guess I was either all too successful, or not successful at all.
inkwell.vue.390
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Kate Veitch, Trust
permalink #135 of 186: Kate Veitch (kate-veitch) Fri 27 Aug 10 02:38
permalink #135 of 186: Kate Veitch (kate-veitch) Fri 27 Aug 10 02:38
Sorry for typos! Eesh!
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Kate Veitch, Trust
permalink #136 of 186: Cynthia Dyer-Bennet (peoples) Fri 27 Aug 10 08:21
permalink #136 of 186: Cynthia Dyer-Bennet (peoples) Fri 27 Aug 10 08:21
don't worry about the typos, Kate, we all make them when we're posting on-the-fly like we are... That's interesting about having to cut so much of your development of Gabriel from the book. He's the kind of character I find most difficult to understand -- how did he get that way? -- so I want to know more of his backstory. You know how directors have to cut scenes from their films in order to get them into theaters? And how sometimes there'll be a "director's cut" release where the stuff that got lopped is put back in? Wouldn't it be something if authors had the chance to do that, too! Did you regret having to cut so much of Gabriel's story? If you could add bits back in, what would they be?
You are most welcome, Linda.
Gerry and Susanna, whatever their flaws, created an atmosphere in which both Stella-Jean and Seb thrived as distinct individuals. Stella-Jean, needed no further nudging; Seb only needed a small course correction to be sailing with the wind. After such an achievement, it made me quite sad that Gerry and Susanna couldn't/wouldn't do the same for themselves, each other, and their marriage.
As for Gabriel, I neither needed nor wanted a backstory. Child abuse down the generations usually repeats because it is not ended, either because it was disowned as the other or because it lead to entitlement to treat new victims as oneself was treated. Often, of course, it is a combination of the two. There's usually too much sanctimonious justification involved, too. Well, beatings did me a lot of good, turned me into a musician praising God and transmitting His Word, so beatings/assaults/castigations will, with God's help, transform this bad, possibly possessed, child into a person with similar virtues. Or, if not, then they will kill him, so he will be a pest no longer and deflect me from my God-assigned work.
inkwell.vue.390
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Kate Veitch, Trust
permalink #140 of 186: Harmless drudge (ckridge) Fri 27 Aug 10 12:48
permalink #140 of 186: Harmless drudge (ckridge) Fri 27 Aug 10 12:48
I don't know whether Gabriel needs to be more in focus. He doesn't intend to be seen; he's a liar. Oh, damn, I do guess he ought to be more visible. He is symptomatic both of what is wrong with Angie and of what is wrong with that church. They don't come fully into focus unless he does. But how in the world would you do that and stay within a marketable size? I have no idea.
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Kate Veitch, Trust
permalink #141 of 186: Kate Veitch (kate-veitch) Fri 27 Aug 10 15:54
permalink #141 of 186: Kate Veitch (kate-veitch) Fri 27 Aug 10 15:54
Cynthia asks "Did you regret having to cut so much of Gabriel's story?", which is an interesting question. The fact that I hadn't considered it before probably means that the answer is "No." Cutting Gabriel's story came late in the long process of writing this novel; earlier, I had cut whole characters and parts of the plot. As in film-making, editing including cutting is a vital part of the creative process. I enjoy it, find it exhilarating. Consequently, I always cut harder than my editor suggests. This is also to do with the fact that I write for flow: I want my readers to be whooshed along on the current of the story. (This means that my writing will never be regarded as literature, but that's okay by me.) My sense is that Gabriel is all the creepier for not being as well-defined as the other characters. By not including his backstory, I've avoided the possibility of that "sanctimonious justification" that Wickett refers to her post #139. What you say in that second para, Wickett, is so chilling, and spot on. I feel sure readers can imagine his backstory pretty clearly, eh? Am I right there, do you think?
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Kate Veitch, Trust
permalink #142 of 186: Kate Veitch (kate-veitch) Fri 27 Aug 10 16:07
permalink #142 of 186: Kate Veitch (kate-veitch) Fri 27 Aug 10 16:07
Re Wickett's post #138, about Gerry and Susanna as parents and as partners: yes, I do feel they've done well as parents. (Making Gerry's love for his kids more apparent was one of the main ways I "warmed up" his character.) There has been a wide range of responses to the ending of the novel. A number of readers have asked me whether Susanna and Gerry actually do split up for good, or do they get back together? Several women have told me how THRILLED they were that she left him "I felt personally liberated and vindicated" is how one reader put it. Others have expressed sadness, as does Wickett, that they can't work out how to support each other as successfully as they have supported their kids, and one reader mentioned that they she felt especially sad FOR the kids. Personally, I am glad to have all these responses, and feel they are all "right", or perhaps I should say, appropriate.
inkwell.vue.390
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Kate Veitch, Trust
permalink #143 of 186: Cynthia Dyer-Bennet (peoples) Fri 27 Aug 10 16:11
permalink #143 of 186: Cynthia Dyer-Bennet (peoples) Fri 27 Aug 10 16:11
Oh yeah, I can imagine a backstory for him, but kinda wondered what the author had created. Anyway, I want to backtrack a bit to something you said earlier, Kate. > Writing a novel is such an isolated undertaking, and then when the > book is published one is expected to suddenly become a salesperson and > shameless self-promoter. The two aspects of producing a book are so > opposed to each other, it can make one feel quite loopy at times. It's the "shameless self-promoter" thing that I want to poke at, particularly since, as you say, you'd spent so much time in isolation writing. "Big noting" oneself (Aussie slang for self-promotion) is considered tacky in Australia, kind of embarrassing. In the US, it's quite the opposite. Self-promotion is common, accepted behavior. How hard has it been for you to big note yourself? Since it's more acceptable behavior here in the US, is it easier when you're in the States to talk up your work than it is to do in Australia?
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Kate Veitch, Trust
permalink #144 of 186: Cynthia Dyer-Bennet (peoples) Fri 27 Aug 10 16:12
permalink #144 of 186: Cynthia Dyer-Bennet (peoples) Fri 27 Aug 10 16:12
whoops, Kate slipped in while I was composing my post. My "I can imagine a backstory for him" was in reference to Gabriel.
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Kate Veitch, Trust
permalink #145 of 186: Kate Veitch (kate-veitch) Fri 27 Aug 10 19:44
permalink #145 of 186: Kate Veitch (kate-veitch) Fri 27 Aug 10 19:44
You're absolutely right, Cynthia, big noting yourself is considered very bad form here in Australia. When I've told fellow authors here that in the US, your publishers expect you to go into as many bookstores as you can and offer to sign copies of your books, they gasp in horror, and often literally shriek with embarrassment at the very thought. I am not at all a shy person, and have no nervousness about public speaking in fact I enjoy it yet the level of self promotion one is expected to engage in in the US, talking up your book at every opportunity, and indeed actively creating opportunities to do so, is excruciating. It fills me not just with anxiety and embarrassment but with a real sense of shame. Despite this, I'm prepared to do it, because it's part of the job. And I feel I understand the American attitude somewhat better now. As one person explained it to me, "If you're not prepared to promote your own work, it means you don't believe in it, and if you don't believe in it, why should anyone else?" I remember trying to explain how Australians look down on people who big note themselves (which btw is an old expression from the racetrack, referring to show-offs who placed bets with large denomination bills) at a reading in New York when my first book was published, and a member of the audience explained it back to me later as "So, Australians aren't allowed to be interesting." I was thunderstruck! No no, I said, interesting is fine. Interesting is GOOD. You're just not allowed to TELL people you're interesting.
<scribbled by wickett Fri 27 Aug 10 21:46>
inkwell.vue.390
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Kate Veitch, Trust
permalink #147 of 186: Cynthia Dyer-Bennet (peoples) Sat 28 Aug 10 09:08
permalink #147 of 186: Cynthia Dyer-Bennet (peoples) Sat 28 Aug 10 09:08
So if its so dreadful to promote yourself in Australia, how have your books seen any publicity down under, Kate? Do Aussie publishers put more money into publicity than their American counterparts?
Wasn't self-promotion foisted off on US authors because publishers didn't want/couldn't afford to spend the money to market? I have a question about "I write for flow: I want my readers to be whooshed along on the current of the story. (This means that my writing will never be regarded as literature, but that's okay by me.)" I don't understand why "flow" is perceived to be incompatible with "literature."
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Kate Veitch, Trust
permalink #149 of 186: To err is human. To improvise, divine (robertflink) Sat 28 Aug 10 13:15
permalink #149 of 186: To err is human. To improvise, divine (robertflink) Sat 28 Aug 10 13:15
Perhaps "flow" requires a strong narrative arc. Some readers may prefer more surprises and it may take more talent to weave them in. I tend to think of jazz where the riffs are often more interesting than the base melody. I get that in Proust where the "riffs" can "fail" but I appreciate the attempt anyway. "Whoshing" can keep us from exploring the eddies and backwaters of a stream including a narrative stream.
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Kate Veitch, Trust
permalink #150 of 186: Kate Veitch (kate-veitch) Sat 28 Aug 10 16:09
permalink #150 of 186: Kate Veitch (kate-veitch) Sat 28 Aug 10 16:09
Good morning from Coorabell, in the hills near Byron Bay, the easternmost point of Australia, where the kookaburras are laughing in the trees (along with whipbirds whipping, wonga pigeons whooping and black cockatoos eerily screeching) and the water dragons are sunning themselves on the lawn. No sign yet of Monty the python, who may or may not resume his/her post in the rafters of the deck right above the table, as yesterday when we were lunching. Now then ... a little more on book promotion, then on with the flow ...
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