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SXSW 2012, Jon Lebkowsky
permalink #76 of 133: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Wed 21 Mar 12 16:09
permalink #76 of 133: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Wed 21 Mar 12 16:09
All good comments and questions that reflect the general misunderstanding as to what is taking place between location and app sharing. Jon, you seem to assume people have actually taken the time to understand and tighten up what privacy IS available to them. Or maybe I misunderstood? In either case, I'm not sure they actually do much at the platform level of their settings, and I doubt few pay much attention to the permissions being given for the multitudinous apps they are downloading onto their smartphones. In one respect, GenY doesn't seem to care about online privacy at all; they have been raised in a collaborative and sharing environment and until they experience something horrid that gets their attention, they just roll with it. Their idea of a social disconnect is to just tell someone to "lose my number" and they expect it to happen. For us older folk, this transition is a major shift in the way we think about social connections. I've been raised assuming my privacy was part and parcel of my understanding of what it means to be living in a free country. Now that we are living in the age of War on Terror, I've watched those liberties and privacies evaporate with the Patriot Act and the incredible intrusion of Homeland Security and NSA into my so-called freedoms - and much of that is being done digitally. So there is a reactionary stance on my part and I flinch when these issues come up. I know you are right and I know it's the future. I'm just not comfortable with it yet. And the burden is on us to maintain our freedoms online and on the ground.
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SXSW 2012, Jon Lebkowsky
permalink #77 of 133: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Wed 21 Mar 12 16:50
permalink #77 of 133: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Wed 21 Mar 12 16:50
I recently sketched out a plot for a sci-fi novel to be written in the near future (40 years out). Privacy was long gone and the only right you had was to your identity and that was primarily protected by your personal AI. Strangers could not even meet one another without both person's AI's having first screened it as okay. It was so depressing I decided not to bother with it. (Except to pass that bummer vision along to you all.)
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SXSW 2012, Jon Lebkowsky
permalink #78 of 133: Ed Ward (captward) Wed 21 Mar 12 19:02
permalink #78 of 133: Ed Ward (captward) Wed 21 Mar 12 19:02
Here's my take on it: <http://www.realeyz.tv/en/blog/the-ward-report/english-thanks-for-sharing-now-g o-away.html>
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SXSW 2012, Jon Lebkowsky
permalink #79 of 133: J. Eric Townsend (jet) Wed 21 Mar 12 19:08
permalink #79 of 133: J. Eric Townsend (jet) Wed 21 Mar 12 19:08
There are GenY people talking about this, including privacy labs at Harvard and CMU with grad students doing research on the topic.
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SXSW 2012, Jon Lebkowsky
permalink #80 of 133: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Thu 22 Mar 12 03:25
permalink #80 of 133: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Thu 22 Mar 12 03:25
Ed, I love the way you write, it always makes me smile as I'm reading. < I'm willing to share a little bit. Or a lot. But I decide, not a piece of software in my phone.> That's it exactly, for me. We've stirred up a hornet's nest here. It's a big issue, possibly generational. And I think we've gotten great inputs. (jet) thanks for that about GenY. Jon, I have a sense that you are baffled a bit by our reactions to what seems comfortable to you. Underneath all this is another aspect of the emergence of social media and that is trust and social capital within networks. That's a real yardstick for me in how I decide whether to follow someone or not, whether it's Google+, LinkedIn, Twitter, or whatever. Can we all talk a bit about that? Tech Crunch has an excellent article on this (http://techcrunch.com/2012/03/21/klout-kred-peerindex-radian6/). I use PeerIndex, Kred, and Klout...not for an ego trip, or to game the system (although I did at first), but rather as a measurement of how well I'm using the tools and platforms available to connect to people I want in my own learning network. But I don't choose people based on their scores. I still use the old fashioned method Ed talks about in his piece above - word of mouth, experience over time, face to face, and more recently, live video chats. How about you all, how do you decide to connect?
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SXSW 2012, Jon Lebkowsky
permalink #81 of 133: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Thu 22 Mar 12 03:48
permalink #81 of 133: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Thu 22 Mar 12 03:48
(What's the buzz? Tell me what's a-happening. playing in my head every time I think of this next issue) Ed, aggregation and curation are having a huge effect on media and journalism (another future driver). Here's a take on it from GigaOM(http://gigaom.com/2012/03/19/if-you-have-news-it-will-be-aggregated-andor-cura ted/). I know this affects you directly. Where's it all taking us?
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SXSW 2012, Jon Lebkowsky
permalink #82 of 133: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Thu 22 Mar 12 03:53
permalink #82 of 133: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Thu 22 Mar 12 03:53
For those of you off the WELL, please feel free to chime in. Send your questions or comments to: inkwell@well.com and they will be posted here.
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SXSW 2012, Jon Lebkowsky
permalink #83 of 133: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Thu 22 Mar 12 06:08
permalink #83 of 133: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Thu 22 Mar 12 06:08
Ted, I'm not really baffled by concerns about privacy that are greater than my own. I've always been more public about what I do, and I've also always had a pretty good sense about what I should represent online and what I should keep offline - e.g. if you search my info you won't find a lot about my family, other than my wife Marsha, especially as she's become more comfortable having an online presence. I'm also not creeped out by marketing entities tracking my behaviors algorithmically and trying to sell me their widgets in a more targeted way. In fact I prefer that over spam. So how do I decide to connect? When I first joined social systems, I would find a couple of friends, then look through their friend lists to find people I know. Eventually I had a basic set of connections to friends and acquaintances. I've moved through a lot of scenes, and owing to the breadth of my interests and activities, I know a lot of people - writers and journalists, artists, hackers, activists, musicians, futurists, network technologists, business people, social media mavens, etc. Over time I've become connected to a lot of people. Now that I have a pretty established set, I rarely initiate connections, usually because I've met somebody I find interesting and want to keep track of 'em. And now there are tools that will allow me to find my Facebook friends or Twitter follows on new systems that I join. So, for instance, when I started using Instagram, I already had an established base of Instagrammers I could follow. SInce I know a lot of people, I find that people who know them will sometimes want to connect. If it's Facebook or LinkedIn, where it's a connection and not a follow and I have to approve it, I look at who they are, what they do, and who else they know that I know. I have clusters of friends that are like neighborhoods of affinity - different clusters tend to have the same clusters. If they're in one of those neighborhoods and the affinity is pretty clear, I'll usually approve the connection even If I don't think I've met them. I know that Facebook will suggest connections by affinity, and I assume that's how people I don't really know find me and decide to connect. When you have a lot of connections, managing the flow of information is more of a challenge, so there's a good reason to give a lot of thought to each added connection, which increases potential connections and data flows exponentially. Some people are just greedy about connections or think they'll get a business benefit by connecting to a lot of people - of course, I avoid those folks.
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SXSW 2012, Jon Lebkowsky
permalink #84 of 133: J. Eric Townsend (jet) Thu 22 Mar 12 07:08
permalink #84 of 133: J. Eric Townsend (jet) Thu 22 Mar 12 07:08
> So how do I decide to connect? You don't control all of those connections, tho. You can give me some purportedly anonymous data and I can match it to someone else's database. In my personal case, my wife and I are the only two people in our county that own the pair of vehicles we own. Tack on "no kids" and we are a direct hit in marketing media traded by businesses. The recent article on how Target knows when a woman is pregnant explains a lot of stuff that people in the industry do quite legally to profile a customer's lifestyle.
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SXSW 2012, Jon Lebkowsky
permalink #85 of 133: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Thu 22 Mar 12 08:31
permalink #85 of 133: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Thu 22 Mar 12 08:31
Here's the article: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/magazine/shopping-habits.html?pagewanted=all <quote> The reason Target can snoop on our shopping habits is that, over the past two decades, the science of habit formation has become a major field of research in neurology and psychology departments at hundreds of major medical centers and universities, as well as inside extremely well financed corporate labs. Its like an arms race to hire statisticians nowadays, said Andreas Weigend, the former chief scientist at Amazon.com. Mathematicians are suddenly sexy. As the ability to analyze data has grown more and more fine-grained, the push to understand how daily habits influence our decisions has become one of the most exciting topics in clinical research, even though most of us are hardly aware those patterns exist. One study from Duke University estimated that habits, rather than conscious decision-making, shape 45 percent of the choices we make every day, and recent discoveries have begun to change everything from the way we think about dieting to how doctors conceive treatments for anxiety, depression and addictions. <end quote>
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SXSW 2012, Jon Lebkowsky
permalink #86 of 133: J. Eric Townsend (jet) Thu 22 Mar 12 08:50
permalink #86 of 133: J. Eric Townsend (jet) Thu 22 Mar 12 08:50
Now, let's say Target (or Wal-Mart or whomever) decides to "anonymize" that data by removing your name and sells or trades it to other marketing firms. Without your name it's anonymous, right? Well, not if you're us.
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SXSW 2012, Jon Lebkowsky
permalink #87 of 133: Ed Ward (captward) Thu 22 Mar 12 09:37
permalink #87 of 133: Ed Ward (captward) Thu 22 Mar 12 09:37
As far as I can make sense out of that GigaOM article, there's one thing that never comes up in these discussions: no matter what the news is, if it's actually news and not just a collection of readily-observable facts, a trained person or several of them have to gather it. I remember the moment at SXSWi a couple of years ago when some Libertarian twit was practically peeing his pants about replacing New York Times reporters with crowd-sourced news gatherers and David Carr made the remark that the two big stories in the paper that day were a report on life in the narco-slums of Mexico's border towns and a couple of billion dollars in U.S. currency which had unaccountably gone missing in Iraq. His question was, who among these "citizen reporters" would be willing to live for a month undercover in Mexico to that that story, and how many of them were fluent enough in both Arabic and forensic accounting to follow the Iraqi paper-trail and prove that this aid money or whatever it was was, indeed, missing? Both of these kinds of reporters or reporting teams are professionals, and need to be paid as such. This raises another of my horror scenarios, in that if it's no longer possible to make money at something -- journalism, the arts -- the only people who'll be doing it will be people who already have money. A class issue arises there, and there's already enough of an overclass/underclass thing going on in the States. We've got to figure this out, and yet there's too much "wow, ain't it cool" going on with all the new tech for anyone to pay attention to it. And when they do, they're derided as old stick-in-the-muds. I'm certain a solution will come, although whether I'll have died from starvation long since is a question. And I'm certain the solution will partake of the virtues of the new tech and the old ways of gathering information in more or less equal parts.
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SXSW 2012, Jon Lebkowsky
permalink #88 of 133: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Thu 22 Mar 12 09:56
permalink #88 of 133: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Thu 22 Mar 12 09:56
Jon, thanks for that post <85>. I follow pretty much the same pattern. I imagine your comfortability comes from having done it so long. I lurked for over a year when I first came to the WELL before I made my first post. The flame wars were just too intimidating for me back in those days. I didn't decide to go social until a year ago and am amazed at the growth of my own network and the richness of the associations. And now it has all become about pruning - strong ties and week ties - and trying to get a balance of input. I don't need to hear the choir singing all the time. Adding new people has become a hard choice for me. There are only so many you can effectively keep up with. More importantly, it's a network, so there has to be sharing on my part and I need to be a valuable tie by my own contributions. Also, I agree with you about the marketing aspects. They can strip my personal data and peddle it all they want. I'll ignore it the same way I ignore TV ads. And yes, my spam is dramatically down. (jet) your case is somewhat unique, but I get you concerns. You would certainly have them about location apps as well. It points out how savvy we all need to be in respect to how digital affects our personal circumstances.
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SXSW 2012, Jon Lebkowsky
permalink #89 of 133: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Thu 22 Mar 12 10:01
permalink #89 of 133: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Thu 22 Mar 12 10:01
Ed, really good point about the need for professionals. Those of us who curate are not about to be embedded. My particular focus is on finding links to people and articles for people who do have a sustained interest in a select area. No question digital is disruptive and you are right it eventually will sift out with a blend of old and new. Bumpy ride now though. And too much focus is on the shiny new thing. For the life of me I can't understand the hubbub about iPad3, I'll pass.
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SXSW 2012, Jon Lebkowsky
permalink #90 of 133: J. Eric Townsend (jet) Thu 22 Mar 12 10:08
permalink #90 of 133: J. Eric Townsend (jet) Thu 22 Mar 12 10:08
<scribbled by jet Thu 22 Mar 12 10:08>
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SXSW 2012, Jon Lebkowsky
permalink #91 of 133: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Thu 22 Mar 12 10:09
permalink #91 of 133: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Thu 22 Mar 12 10:09
What other things are on your minds in respect to our digital futures? Anything else that grabs your attention or causes concern?
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SXSW 2012, Jon Lebkowsky
permalink #92 of 133: J. Eric Townsend (jet) Thu 22 Mar 12 10:14
permalink #92 of 133: J. Eric Townsend (jet) Thu 22 Mar 12 10:14
> (jet) your case is somewhat unique, but I get you concerns. Three of my nearby neighbors all have unique families relative to the "average, normal" family. Unusual mixed-race couple for this part of the world with two new kids; single-parent family of excellent athletes who are all in college, all cars have vanity plates, mom died recently in a car crash; lawyer couple who are locally active in pro-resident politics, recent weddings of kids, wife is fighting her second round of cancer. All average, normal people, just like everyone else in this burgh. Hard to tell 'em apart, even!
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SXSW 2012, Jon Lebkowsky
permalink #93 of 133: Ed Ward (captward) Thu 22 Mar 12 10:19
permalink #93 of 133: Ed Ward (captward) Thu 22 Mar 12 10:19
Yeah, depending on what you're mining for, <jet> either blends into the wallpaper or sticks way out. And that's the problem for him and the rest of us: unless you're waaaay mainstream, you're very visible. Now, I use social media -- primarily Facebook because I've never figured out LinkedIn and I hate Twitter -- for self-promotion. Nobody else is promoting me, so posting a link to my weekly realeyz blog or my personal blog or the audio of a Fresh Air piece or (occasionally) my two Kindle short books is how I get people to check those things out.
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SXSW 2012, Jon Lebkowsky
permalink #94 of 133: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Thu 22 Mar 12 10:24
permalink #94 of 133: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Thu 22 Mar 12 10:24
Ed, the smart view about bloggers vs journalists is that there's no vs, no either/or. Journalist bloggers like Jay Rosen and Dan Gillmor have suggested that bloggers and journalists could form partnerships. There are many bloggers on the ground and they don't have the same constraints as journalists - e.g. they can continue pursuing a story after it's "stale" and possibly facilitate deeper digging and better understanding. Bloggers have been known to revive stories thought dead by coming up with additional facts. So I think any idea of bloggers replacing journalists is a non-issue, it ain't going to happen. The real problem for journalists is that their traditional employers are no longer making enough money to pay them what they're worth, in fact many news organizations are in danger of extinction. This is partly because there are so many channels for information, mindshare is less focused, it's harder for any one organization to attract a huge number of eyeballs. Many advertisers are spreading their spends over many more publications (and forms of publication). It's sort of the opposite of walmartization, where a big box moves into town and wipes out the smaller players. Here the smaller players are emerging and scattering attention originally focused on the big box, which as a result has trouble making overhead and may have to fold. There's also Craig's list and similar online platforms for free classified advertising. Big losses for newspapers as a result. Lots of innovation happening in news right now, but the economic questions persist. We need new business models for news, and bloggers may be part of the deal. HuffPo is a profitable news organization built on blogs, for instance.
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SXSW 2012, Jon Lebkowsky
permalink #95 of 133: Ed Ward (captward) Thu 22 Mar 12 10:40
permalink #95 of 133: Ed Ward (captward) Thu 22 Mar 12 10:40
I never mentioned bloggers. I am a blogger.
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SXSW 2012, Jon Lebkowsky
permalink #96 of 133: David Wilson (dlwilson) Thu 22 Mar 12 11:53
permalink #96 of 133: David Wilson (dlwilson) Thu 22 Mar 12 11:53
<92> Pittsburgh has always been an interesting place. I went to college there in the mid 60's. The mills were running 3 shifts at the time, everyone was working, there was great music up on the Hill, Forbes Field let students into the bleachers for free after the 7th inning, and there was shared humanity and respect between the mashed up populations. Even the y'ins and you'ins were cool.
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SXSW 2012, Jon Lebkowsky
permalink #97 of 133: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Thu 22 Mar 12 12:24
permalink #97 of 133: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Thu 22 Mar 12 12:24
Ed, when you mentioned "crowdsourced news gatherers" I assumed you were referring to bloggers.
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SXSW 2012, Jon Lebkowsky
permalink #98 of 133: Ed Ward (captward) Thu 22 Mar 12 16:52
permalink #98 of 133: Ed Ward (captward) Thu 22 Mar 12 16:52
Nothing that organized, I'm afraid.
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SXSW 2012, Jon Lebkowsky
permalink #99 of 133: J. Eric Townsend (jet) Thu 22 Mar 12 18:48
permalink #99 of 133: J. Eric Townsend (jet) Thu 22 Mar 12 18:48
The point I was getting to is that these two statements can both be true: - I am collecting data about you using the XYZ App on your phone in an anonymous way where I don't log data that identifies who you are. Nothing you give me identifies who you are, just what you did with the XYZ App. - I can later correlate/match that collected data with information purchased from other companies and quickly learn alot about who you are.. If you use the XYZ App to pick and watch movies then rate those movies, I could match that information with data purchased from movie rental companies and make a decent guess about what else you like and possibly who you are.
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SXSW 2012, Jon Lebkowsky
permalink #100 of 133: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Fri 23 Mar 12 06:17
permalink #100 of 133: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Fri 23 Mar 12 06:17
<jet>, I don't think they care who you are. They only care about targeting purchases. The guys who care who you are have probably been doing this much longer, more quietly. This might be a good place to mention Doc Searls' Project VRM, the focus of his Harvard fellowship. The project grew out of Doc's relationship with the Identity Workshop and the various discussions about personal data. VRM is an acro for "vendor relationship management" - the name came up in thinking about how this creates more of a symmetry with tools for "customer relationship management," where the vendor collects and "owns" your data, and can do pretty much anything with it. The idea of VRM is to build tools that empower the customer or consumer, allowing them some control in relationships with vendors. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendor_relationship_management for more information. "The primary theory behind ProjectVRM is that many market problems (including the widespread belief that customer lock-in is a 'best practice') can only be solved from the customer side: by making the customer a fully empowered actor in the marketplace, rather than one whose power in many cases is dependent on exclusive relationships with vendors, by coerced agreement provided entirely by those vendors." - http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/research/projectvrm One of the most useful experiences I had at SXSW 2012 was an offsite meeting with Doc and Gregory Foster, a colleague of mine.
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