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permalink #101 of 214: Gary Gach (ggg) Wed 13 Jun 12 07:13
permalink #101 of 214: Gary Gach (ggg) Wed 13 Jun 12 07:13
<89> scepticism :: I recently came across this passage from the Quran XVII:36 : Do not accept anything that you yourself cannot ascertain. You are given hearing, the eyes and the intelligence (mind), in order to examine and verify. ¿ How similar is this ? to the Buddha's words to the Kalamas ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalama_Sutta ), typifying his spirit of free inquiry ... some might say scientific method ; phenomenological approach. This resonance elicits in my mind a chord of interfaith. And interfaith seems an appropriate topic to braid into the mix here, since most of here are probably born into nonBuddhist families. I'm Jewish (on my parents' side), as Lama Surya Das says. And believe me I'm no less rooted in my blood ancestry since following the Buddha Way. Compare the Quran passage ... with the Buddha's saying Ehipassiko ( = come and see; see for yourself ) ... with "O taste and see" -Psalm 34:8. Or Psalm 46:10 : Be still and know that I am God. & the Buddha: Be still and know. Of course, it may be easier to notice differences, and enumerate, rather than close the book for a moment on judgmental mind ( volume 2 ), and instead aim for unification. I think we are fingers of one hand, leaves of one tree, stars of one sky.
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permalink #102 of 214: Stephen Hale (sdhale) Wed 13 Jun 12 11:12
permalink #102 of 214: Stephen Hale (sdhale) Wed 13 Jun 12 11:12
Thank you for the wonderful quote from the Quran.
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permalink #103 of 214: Roland Legrand (roland) Wed 13 Jun 12 15:20
permalink #103 of 214: Roland Legrand (roland) Wed 13 Jun 12 15:20
I've been interested by Buddhism since a tender age... as a result of watching samurai-movies. I tried meditation on my own, but I lacked the discipline to continue it. However, it somehow - in an undoubtedly very imperfect way - returned during my jujitsu and karate practice, when we sit in zazen at the beginning and the end of the training sessions. And of course, in a way, that martial arts practice in itself can be considered as an "active meditation". However, reading books such as Tracking "Bodhidharma: A journey to the heart of Chinese culture" by Andy Ferguson, I have questions about this link between martial arts and Zen. It seems that Zen in Japan was not exactly ferociously resisting the militarization of the country and the emperor-worshipping. Quite the contrary, the Zen tradition was used to prepare many young minds for the ultimate sacrifice in the war. Japanese monks replaced the Chinese monks during occupation etc. In Western martial arts circles the whole samurai/Zen culture is being celebrated without much critical thinking. The very difficult question now: am I talking here about an historical accident, which as such has nothing to do with Zen, or are there elements in Zen and Buddhism which can lead to these deviation? Ferguson distinguishes between a tradition in Buddhism which tried to ignore the imperial palace and the powers that be, and a tradition which embraced the support from high places in order to become more influential.
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permalink #104 of 214: Susan Sarandon, tractors, etc. (rocket) Wed 13 Jun 12 17:10
permalink #104 of 214: Susan Sarandon, tractors, etc. (rocket) Wed 13 Jun 12 17:10
Interesting. I too encountered not-doing in karate. Five classes a week for years and it starts to sink in!
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permalink #105 of 214: Paul Belserene (paulbel) Wed 13 Jun 12 19:49
permalink #105 of 214: Paul Belserene (paulbel) Wed 13 Jun 12 19:49
Roland, now that you have some instruction and practice in sitting zazen at the dojo, maybe you could see if a short, regular, practice - 10 - 20 minutes or so, might fit into your home?
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permalink #106 of 214: Renshin Bunce (renshin-b) Wed 13 Jun 12 20:21
permalink #106 of 214: Renshin Bunce (renshin-b) Wed 13 Jun 12 20:21
Roland, there's another book by Brian Victoria called "Zen at War" that created a stir when it came out, as it revealed how many monasteries were complicit in the WWII war effort, doing things like melting temple bells for bullets. People have been going along to get along for centuries and will probably continue to do so. It's nice to read about the hero standing up and saying "No I won't!" but much harder to be that person in the sweep of history.
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permalink #107 of 214: Pseud Impaired (mitsu) Wed 13 Jun 12 22:01
permalink #107 of 214: Pseud Impaired (mitsu) Wed 13 Jun 12 22:01
There were people who resisted. My ancestors were samurai; by the time WWII came around, however, my great-grandfather was adamantly opposed to it; he felt the people running the war were idiots and he didn't want any of his children dying fighting for such people. So, he sent his son to America and his grandchildren, my uncle and father, stayed behind (they were too young to fight). The great Ueshiba-sensei, the founder of Aikido, was a very strong worshipper of the Emperor but once he saw what the Imperial Army was doing he was revolted and he went to an island to wait out the war. There were, in fact, many samurai who were opposed to WWII (that is, former samurai), as the government, despite using "bushido" rhetoric was in many ways violating many of the principles of the samurai culture as at least they understood it. My personal feeling is the Zen sects which supported the war were probably swayed by the past association between Zen and bushido culture. In the old days, Zen was the samurai religion, essentially. Zen was responsible, I think, to a large degree, for the relative restraint which samurai were, for the most part, famous for. It was considered the worst offense to kill in anger; killing was something that was to be done only when necessary, and deliberately, without passion. In some ways, this was the opposite of the Western idea that cold-blooded killing is the worst, and killing in anger is understandable --- for Japanese, Zen made outbursts of anger seem the worst sin --- and I think in the context of a martial culture that was definitely a good thing. So I think when the war came along, the Zen temples which went along with it really misread the government, they believed, perhaps naively, that the government was acting in a way somehow consistent with the samurai ethics of old --- not the case, of course, at all. The Japanese who were more politically savvy, like my great-grandfather, knew it was all bunk. Of course, it is possible Zen temples also went along with the murderous and bloodthirsty behavior of the Imperial Army --- but I somehow suspect that had they actually seen what Ueshiba saw on the battlefield they would have changed their view of the whole business. But that's just speculation. As I understand it, the Rinzai sect tended to be more pro-war, and the Soto sect simply went quiet. It's well-known that Suzuki-roshi was opposed to the war, but like most Japanese he couldn't oppose it very openly. My great-grandfather opposed it by sending his family to America, that's why we're here today.
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permalink #108 of 214: Roland Legrand (roland) Thu 14 Jun 12 00:37
permalink #108 of 214: Roland Legrand (roland) Thu 14 Jun 12 00:37
Mitsu, thank you for your illuminating post. Your great-grandfather must have been a very remarkable person, taking bold decisions at very difficult momentS in Japanese history. Paul, I'm about to start meditating also at home. I'm a journalist, so it's not easy for me to go to a Zen-group early in the evening, as I often work late (and really, I do need sleeping). However, there are some of those groups active here in Antwerp, Belgium, and I think I'll visit them anyway. Mu feeling is that at my karate dojo people consider karate as simply being a kind of active Zen (which can be true, depending on the karateka) and that it's not necessary to talk about it explicitly nor to engage in more specific meditation practices (I don't agree with that). I will look for a traditional Soto Zen group - somehow I think I'll feel at home there, being used to rather traditional Japanese karate-practice.
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permalink #109 of 214: Gary Gach (ggg) Thu 14 Jun 12 10:01
permalink #109 of 214: Gary Gach (ggg) Thu 14 Jun 12 10:01
Am seconding Renshin's book recommendation, and thanking Mitsu for her post, as always. Wonderful that you're going to Zen to learn about Zen, Roland. (Haiku is a form of Zen. Tea ceremony is a form of Zen. Swordsmanship is a form of Zen. Flower arranging is a form of Zen. Zen is not a form of anything: it is life itself.) Here are 2 sites for possible sources where you are. http://www.buddhanet.info/wbd/country.php?country_id=57 http://iriz.hanazono.ac.jp/zen_centers/centers_data/belgium.htm (I see that Vietnamese Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh has three practice centers in Belgium, but not in Antwerp.) How wonderful to learn Zen from living practitioners and teachers. When I first set out, there were more buddhas sitting behind glass cases in museums, than living buddhas breathing on zafus, in community with other beings. _/|_
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permalink #110 of 214: Jane Hirshfield (jh) Thu 14 Jun 12 10:30
permalink #110 of 214: Jane Hirshfield (jh) Thu 14 Jun 12 10:30
After being mostly offline for a month, I'm arriving late to this quite remarkable conversation. I deeply appreciate the depth of what's been conveyed here, and the spirit and feeling of shared inquiry and exploration. Please forgive a slightly long post by way of entering in, since people have generally given their history when they first speak here. My background: I was given zazen instruction at age 15, when a school teacher brought a group of us on a field trip to the new New York Zendo just opened by Taisan, later Eido-Roshi. At age 18-19, in college, I began reading Japanese and Chinese classical literature, encountered the Buddhist ideas in them, and began to sit haphazardly on my own a little, with what I recalled. At 21, after graduating and then a year of farm labor, I drove cross country slowly, living in a van with tie-dyed curtains, looking for where I might live and write, probably waitressing. But I'd heard there was a Zen monastery in California (at the time, the only one in the US). It was summer, and so more open than in the winter. I talked my way in to be a guest student for a week without going to the City Center first (as one was supposed to). I ended up staying at Zen Center of S.F.'s three residential practice communities for most of the next eight years, including three in monastic training at Tassajara. I was lay ordained in 1979. This is Suzuki-roshi's lineage, Soto Zen, the same practice community as Renshin's. I've also worked with some non-Soto Buddhist teachers as an editor on their books, Jack Kornfield's first two big books, A Path With Heart and After the Ecstasy, The Laundry, and John Tarrant's first book, and have translated various Buddhist poets from the past, from early Japanese and Indian women poets to 17th c haiku poet Basho, who travelled wearing Buddhist robes. Those translations felt like coming full circle, since it was Buddhist poetry that first led me toward practice. One thing I always was drawn to in Buddhism as a possible thing to actually do was that lay practice is (in theory, anyhow) presented as a fully valid path, and it was what I wanted. The intensity of formal training, but then a life in the regular world. The Ten Oxherding pictures are one famous depiction of that way of practice. Another is something I heard about early on at Zen Center: that there are four types of practice-- priest practice, monastic practice, lay practice, and teahouse practice. That last is the old lady who runs the teahouse by the road, and no one quite knows why they like to go there so much, they just do. I always liked that idea of invisible, unlabelled practice best of all, because it stops labels and ideas from getting in the way of actual experience. Yet the teahouse lady is not untrained herself--she is part of the tradition, and a fierce teacher at times. (I recently wrote about the originating koan of this for a book that's coming out sometime soon, edited by Susan Moon, in which women practitioners comment on koans with women in them.) A life-koan for me has been about falling into the cracks between lay practice and teahouse practice. The place I just was for a month, I never said anything about having a practice, but after a while, people just started coming up to me and asking, "Do you meditate? There's something that makes me think you must." Then I'd have to answer. Speaking in this conversation is part of that koan, for that matter. The real teahouse lady would just be pouring some tea, minding her own business in both senses of that phrase. Another life-koan and abiding question has been the relationship of Buddhism to our human emotions. That's an area we haven't much talked about yet--that Buddhism, according to the story, anyhow, began as a way to address the basic questions of fundamental human suffering. I myself like the idea that mindfulness, whatever gate it's entered through, is going to lead to similar or the same recognitions, if what we are seeing in practice is at all a human truth. "Everything changes, everything is connected, pay attention" is something I once came up with as "all Buddhism in seven words," and I do think that if you allow yourself to take in transience and interconnection with full attention, which happens in meditation-awareness but could happen in other ways as well, all the rest will arise from it--the paramitas, the eight-fold path, the concept of karma, maybe even the Tibetan panorama of figures (though that, I suspect, might be a stretch). Certainly compassion arises, and unfixedness of self. Out of compassion, generosity. And so on. Quite a few years after I came up with that sentence and it had rather gotten out there, I laughed when I realized, really, you only need two words: pay attention. All the rest rises from that. With my Western cultural bias, I do think that one way to describe Buddhism is as an experiment you can run on yourself, and see the results in yourself and your life. Who you are is always right there with you. Awareness is the difference. And yet, the teachings, in their huge flowering and variation, are helpful. And different teachings helpful to different people--some will practice more happily in paths with visualization, devotion, mantra (no one here has yet mentioned the namu Amida Buddha practice which is probably one of the most widely done), some will practice more happily with koans, some with shikantaza just-sitting, some with a movement-based practice, some with Abhidharma philosophical inquiry, some with vipassana mind-awareness. None is better or worse than any other. I always like the story of a great teacher saying, "If I meet a six year old child with something to teach, I will learn from him, if I meet a seventy year old patriarch who needs something I can give, I will teach him." We all learn from and teach one another and remind one another. And every school of Buddhism (or other religion) seems to me a practice of maintaining or allowing a certain awareness--whose descriptions and outer manifestations may differ, but whose heart is to a great extent recognizably shared. Another thing I heard early on and that stuck deeply with me which seems relevant to earlier parts of this conversation is that Buddhist practice rests on a tripod: Great Faith, Great Doubt, Great Effort. None without the others.
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permalink #111 of 214: Susan Sarandon, tractors, etc. (rocket) Thu 14 Jun 12 10:47
permalink #111 of 214: Susan Sarandon, tractors, etc. (rocket) Thu 14 Jun 12 10:47
An inspiring post!
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permalink #112 of 214: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Thu 14 Jun 12 12:19
permalink #112 of 214: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Thu 14 Jun 12 12:19
Yes, quite so. I want to read that book about women in koans when it's published. In Buddhism we hear about 'emptiness' and 'not-self,' often misunderstood, possibly because the words used are never quite right. Emptiness is discussed more in Mahayana than Theravada tradition; I think we have participants here who have experience with both. Maybe by talking about emptiness, we can also gain some insight into the difference in Mahayana and Theravada schools?
Jane, you brought up so many great topics that we should talk about here! I'm gonna make a little list. I've been told that "kindness and awareness" says it all -- but it seems like adding "impermanence" to that is called for, and then that's the same basic formulation as your six-word one, which spells it out better. Back to Roland, though -- you could sit for 5 minutes without any instruction or whatever. It's easy, once you find a posture that works for you. It could feel like nothing is happening but that's good!
slip, obv.
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permalink #115 of 214: Patrick Madden (padlemad) Thu 14 Jun 12 12:59
permalink #115 of 214: Patrick Madden (padlemad) Thu 14 Jun 12 12:59
Hi Jane :) Welcome. As it happens, I'm currently reading "After the Ecstasy, The Laundry" and enjoying it a lot.
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permalink #116 of 214: Jane Hirshfield (jh) Thu 14 Jun 12 13:58
permalink #116 of 214: Jane Hirshfield (jh) Thu 14 Jun 12 13:58
Thanks, fom, glad you like that. Jack's a wonderful teacher, with both feet on ground and a knack for the right story and the right issues for many of us who practice in this country and culture. Very glad to hear you are liking the book, Patrick. Jon, I think you are just right about words and meanings making a difference, and that different schools/places/times embody different attitudes to similar but not identical concepts. I have often heard that a better translation than "emptiness" would have been "spaciousness," and I tend to say "no-fixed-self" rather than "no-self." But different schools lean differently on these descriptors, and as people have said eloquently earlier, the experiences behind the words are ungraspable by language anyhow. The Theravadan texts and Mahayana and Tibetan/Tantric also have hugely different attitudes about the emotions--but an American just starting to learn about Buddhism gets a kind of stew of them all, unsorted and not distinguished. For a long time I carried the question "What is the emotional life of a Buddha?" Different traditions propose quite different answers to that. In classical Theravadan texts, the emotions are supposed to wither up like dead leaves and vanish. Tantric Buddhism offers images of fierce deities, or erotic ones, as elemental forces of liberation. Mahayana is somewhere between these. But in each case, what's clear is that you are probably not going to find liberation from suffering if you identify completely with your emotions or are attached to them. But it's not a good idea to ignore them either--which is a lot of what Jack is talking about in that book. One thing that Western practitioners are at times taken to task for is unseriousness, that "there isn't enough about enlightenment." I notice that's not a word that has shown up much here, and I'd agree that there just isn't a lot to be said, but I thought I'd raise it. As a Soto-trained practitioner, I come from a lineage where as the koan says, chopping wood and carrying water are themselves the miraculous powers. Sitting a seven day sesshin at Tassajara is unimaginably arduous and "serious".... but big experiences, in Soto practice, are something that isn't much talked about--they happen, but you don't talk about them, and the test of them is how you are in any given moment. What is the quality of this moment is the only barometer that matters. In Rinzai, though, you pass your koans, and there's a kind of check-ladder of practice; people know exactly where they are on it. I wonder, does anyone here do koan practice in that way, and if so, do you have anything to say about it? Or is anyone a Tibetan lineage practitioner, where as I understand it there are a series of quite specific initiations and practices along the way of training? The Soto attitude of no-attainment seems to me to be the governing vocabulary among many American Buddhists, including non-Soto ones--it fits well with a democratic culture of essential modesty-- but it's not the only approach, and can be misunderstood as placid by those who train in other modes.
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permalink #117 of 214: Pseud Impaired (mitsu) Thu 14 Jun 12 14:33
permalink #117 of 214: Pseud Impaired (mitsu) Thu 14 Jun 12 14:33
I think these are excellent points and questions to raise. As I mentioned before my teacher's main teachers were in the Vajrayana/Tibetan tradition which is very robust, intense, and works directly with powerful energies and forces. He also has studied with Taoist masters as well, who also work directly with deep forces which have connections to emotions (but are in many ways more primal than what we typically call "emotions"). (Some of the "strange" experiences I alluded to above are a result of explorations with these practices). A very strong component to the Dzogchen view, however, is precisely this "already accomplished" aspect of reality, that is to say, not striving to "achieve" something via the self making progress towards a goal, but instead working with what is already the case even before you start. However, I don't think many people would mistake the Vajrayana or Dzogchen approach with a "passive" approach --- it dives into the very fabric of the tumult of life including all its energies and conflicts and contradictions, even as it also agrees with the Soto emphasis on what Suzuki-roshi used to call "no gaining idea." So I wouldn't say the Tibetan approach is necessarily one which involves this idea of progress --- more accurately, as I noted earlier, Tibetan Buddhism includes within it a verison of most of the approaches including step-by-step approaches, sutric emphasis, tantric schools, and "already complete" schools such as Dzogchen. Perhaps somewhat unlike Soto Zen, however, in Tibetan Buddhism you can and do talk about "big experiences" with your teacher (it's still rather bad form to talk too much about them with fellow students, for the obvious reason that you don't want to get into some sort of competition.) But they understand these experiences not as goals in themselves but instead interesting moments which can shed light on issues the practitioner happens to be going through, either in terms of their general realization or working with specific energies, forces, and principles. The longer I've practiced, however, the more clear it is to me that, at least from the perspective of my own practice and study, the notion of the "already complete" really is the most fundamental truth of our existence; to the extent I've had big experiences they aren't achievements, but rather points where I shed one or more habits in which I was clinging to some notion of self or ordinary time or progress, however subtle. But shedding or dropping something isn't necessarily permanent; you can always pick it up again, which is why this is not the "end" of practice but rather just an event. It is true, however, that I've had major shifts, so huge that they radically changed my moment to moment experience of life rather completely... but even so, the interesting thing about them was the extent to which at the same moment I realized that there wasn't actually a fundamental change there at all --- even delusion is itself an expression of enlightenment. The more that's become clear ironicaly the more stable my realization and practice has been.
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permalink #118 of 214: Chris Marti (cmarti) Thu 14 Jun 12 16:06
permalink #118 of 214: Chris Marti (cmarti) Thu 14 Jun 12 16:06
It seems that serious meditation practice engenders a dropping away of a number of habits that tend to conceal the nature of mind, perception and generally how things are. The events that mark this process can indeed be quite earth shattering - until soon thereafter it becomes apparent that this "new" perception was there all along anyway. On another note, Theravada practice seems often to get short shrift from other Buddhist traditions. I've always been mystified by why this might be - is it carryover from Asia? Is it something we said? ;-)
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permalink #119 of 214: Gary Gach (ggg) Thu 14 Jun 12 20:14
permalink #119 of 214: Gary Gach (ggg) Thu 14 Jun 12 20:14
<101> is quite a ' tea ceremony ' thank you, <jh>. Just when it felt like the forum was revolving around in a circle, in need of new thematic topical inquiry, shazam! i'll pick just emptiness, for now, as <jon> has also flagged it, and it might be fun enuf: thus have I heard. Before I begin, I can see how emotions also could pertain, so I'll end on that, as emotional life of Buddha puzzled me too for decades. < e m p t i n e s s > Emptiness links in to initial previous posts & ripostes abt re-incarnation : if there's an immortal soul, then it's a twofer deal (two-for-the-price-of-one): one automatically can get Heaven (with God thrown in as a bonus). But -- if no fixed separate immortal anything ( except continual change & interconnection ), then what exactly carries over (gets reborn), such as unhatched seeds of intention, gives way to Buddhist hair-splitting. --Unless, aha!, one recognizes the emptiness of all this as concepts, in which case there might be another two-fer gift to open: emptiness + the unborn/undying. Emptiness can give rise to complex elegant treatises, such as Nagarjuna's tetralema, and the whole PrajanaParamita canon, but why not keep it simple : Don't believe everything you think. Check your expectations. Say I'm driving in my vehicle, and as I reach an intersection you turn in front of me such that I miss the light and have to wait. I might curse that you cut me off(!), but hey you just made a turn, and I interpreted it. As in law, there's statement of fact, and conclusion from fact. The situation was, in and of itself, blank (empty of interpretation). Bonus: In my practice, btw, emptiness is one of three mutual doors, along with signlessness, and aimlessness. But, then, Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh teaches Theravada & Mahayana, both. And from the above, we can ground emotions. In my car, feeling cut off, I can get angry. Honk my horn. Honk louder as others around are honking, in a little symphonic prequel to road rage. Or -- I can feel anger. Be aware of it arising. Noticing the bodily sensations of constricted chest, shortness of breath, dizzy head, etc. Recognize it, and rather than react to it, respond in a skillful way: an opportunity to see, in my own life-as-laboratory, the truth of the four ennobling truths. Here, the whole jukebox of feelings gets boiled down to three essential emotional tones: craving, aversions, and shutting down. Had I been a better practitioner, this would have been wayy shorter. But am so grateful for the teachings, so am sharing what I've found for myself to be true and correct -- and beneficial to others as well as me -- in this context. BTW, <jh>, am curious when you're in a group situation as you say you just were -- even 'tho you don't tell anyone about Zen or sitting or any of that, do you consider your presence amongst the group an instance of sangha?
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permalink #120 of 214: Miguel Marcos (miguel) Fri 15 Jun 12 05:48
permalink #120 of 214: Miguel Marcos (miguel) Fri 15 Jun 12 05:48
(I do not wish to hijack the current stream but want to point out an interesting blog post on 'Western Philosophical Chauvinism' by Barbara O'Brien who I enjoy reading. The post is much too short but brings up a good topic. There are some interesting comments. http://buddhism.about.com/b/2012/06/05/western-philosophical-chauvinism.htm )
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permalink #121 of 214: Renshin Bunce (renshin-b) Fri 15 Jun 12 08:09
permalink #121 of 214: Renshin Bunce (renshin-b) Fri 15 Jun 12 08:09
Wonderful posts, Jane, also clearly time consuming on your end so thank you for them. I hadn't known your early history, the way you burrowed your way into zen like a heat seeking missile with tie dyed curtains. Karma karma karma. One of my favorite stories about my own relationship to zen is this: In 1964, I was living in a hippie apartment at Bush and Laguna. My neighbor, who was a very strange fellow, told me that there was a Japanese master named Suzuki-roshi who was teaching zen in the big old building across the street. "What is zen?" I asked. "A way to end desire," he answered. So of course I didn't go, and never met Suzuki-roshi, and didn't get to zen for another 30 years. If my peculiar neighbor hadn't confused Mahayana and Theravadan practice, and the attempt to end desire with the struggle to live with it, my life might have been quite different. Now, though, I can't in any way argue with the life I've had, which is to say that I can't argue with my own particular karma.
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permalink #122 of 214: Jane Hirshfield (jh) Fri 15 Jun 12 08:30
permalink #122 of 214: Jane Hirshfield (jh) Fri 15 Jun 12 08:30
(Renshin slipped, with such a marvelous post!) Too many interesting directions to go at once; even with a non-unified self it seems we humans must put one thing at a time into awareness... at least when we talk. Mitsu, your description of Dzogchen chimes with the sense I've always had that Dzogchen and Soto are very very close in what you describe. Everything you say so eloquently, I recognize also as Soto practice path's description. Especially the feeling/idea of what Suzuki-roshi meant by "things as it is"--awakening already is present, it is only that our experience can feel separate from it or not. Chris's description also--so simple and right feeling. Yes. And how to work with that in traffic, as Gary describes, one of the great American fields of practice. I should clear up any misunderstanding on one thing--of course in Soto you speak with your teacher, privately, about big experiences (and all else). What I had in mind was the difference with what I've heard about Rinzai, where at the end of a sesshin it is (I have heard, probably going all the way back to DT Suzuki and Kapleau-roshi's books) sometimes announced that X many people had kensho experiences. Chris, I think Theravada practices are fully present in the landscape of American Buddhism, both through Thich Nhat Hanh's teaching, as Gary reminds, and through the many Vipassana and especially Insight Meditation teachers; and then, through them, people like Jon Kabat-Zinn, who is taking mindfulness meditation into the larger culture in so many interesting ways. We just don't tend, for some reason, to label them Theravada as firmly as the Mahayana and Vajrayana paths are labelled--I'd guess probably out of some left over embarrassment from the old, now discarded "Hinayana" (lesser path) description. Thinking of Jon Kabat-Zinn raises yet another possible area of discussion--Buddhism without Buddhism has been touched on, but there's so much more to think about there--what happens when you take certain practices out of their traditional fabric--can they keep their effectiveness, are they in some sense the broadest path to lessening suffering and increasing compassion, or do they get watered down and vanish? Which circles back to those four paths of practice--all of which, to me, seem part of a sustainable ecosystem. Gary, to answer your question, my use of sangha (inside my own psyche) is so broad as to be perhaps meaningless. For me, everything's sangha. Right down to the rocks and squirrels and mosquitoes, one big sangha, all practicing together. I know that's not what it's supposed to mean as a reference. And it is certainly true that even in that narrower sense, I feel that way about the group of people I was with--everyone was doing something with full-hearted intention, certainly, and supporting one another in that. So, not a "Buddhist" sangha, but surely a sangha. I am curious how others here handle this intersection of regular person and practitioner, especially when so much of practice is about dropping identity and label. Does it come up as an issue in ways that need to be attended to, that bring either difficulty or satisfaction? For Renshin, as priest and hospice worker, it is I am guessing part of your public and knowable identity(though as you said, most of your hospice patients may not know your training is in Zen, you still are "chaplain"). What about others? How does the vocabulary and label affect your interactions with those who are not practicing?
inkwell.vue.444
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Buddhism on (and off) the WELL
permalink #123 of 214: Patrick Madden (padlemad) Fri 15 Jun 12 09:35
permalink #123 of 214: Patrick Madden (padlemad) Fri 15 Jun 12 09:35
((miguel), thanks for your #120, that's a fascinating thread)
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Buddhism on (and off) the WELL
permalink #124 of 214: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Fri 15 Jun 12 09:44
permalink #124 of 214: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Fri 15 Jun 12 09:44
I don't talk about Buddhism much with those who aren't conversant with it. I had a conversation the other day with a friend who's an attorney, and who also studies, and gives talks about, the way the brain works. We talked about the relationship of brain to mind. I mention stuff that emerges from my practice or study to him, and I have the feeling he didn't hear. There's also always the part that words fail to carry. Yesterday I practiced and felt connected to my practice, and when it was done I met my wife, did something mundane - grocery shopping - and could feel all the attachment stuff emerging again. Dependent origination, karma, conditioned response and action, emotions churning. However aware, just after practice, that this stuff is "empty" in the sense that it just comes, just goes - is transient and has no persistent substance. An uptight emotion is not a thing, but a process that comes and goes. Self is like that, too. Mu Soeng in _The Heart of the Universe_ makes the connection between sunyata/emptiness and quantum study. Is an atom a thing, or a process? When you look inside, there's nothing there... but there's something. Talking about no-thing seems to thingify it, so the words don't seem adequate for any kind of understanding. Communicating the experience is hard - I figured that's why Rinzai use koan, and there are various more experiential methods and shocks that communicate what words alone can't.
inkwell.vue.444
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Buddhism on (and off) the WELL
permalink #125 of 214: Pseud Impaired (mitsu) Fri 15 Jun 12 17:32
permalink #125 of 214: Pseud Impaired (mitsu) Fri 15 Jun 12 17:32
To me, if there's a concern about Buddhism "without Buddhism", it's not about the cultural trappings --- after all, every culture Buddhism has moved into has changed radically the style and other cultural indicators. As we were discussing above, Thai Buddhism is extremely integrated with local customs and with the local animist religious beliefs that were likely indigenous to Thailand before the advent of Buddhism. On the other hand, sects like Zen in Japan have already stripped out a huge number of Buddhist stylistic trappings, and Zen already is a very spare version of Buddhism, though it does still retain rituals and so on, robes, etc., it is nevertheless already an almost "modern" version of Buddhism which doesn't spend a lot of energy or time on many of the things which occupy the mythological space of other Buddhist sects. So I think Buddhism can certainly survive just fine while changing, dropping, or radically simplifying many of the rituals and so on --- as it already has for centuries. The more important question is whether something deep can get lost in translation --- there's a lot of richness in Buddhist theory and practice, and incredible, nearly inconceivable depths ... if Buddhism gets reintrepreted simply as a form of psychology, for instance, rather than as a tradition which directly addresses fundamental existential issues in a way which is both deeply personal and almost cosmic in its implications, then I think something will have been lost. But I also believe there is a future, as I alluded to before, to the Dharma which goes beyond Buddhism as it has evolved in the past. I personally think there are profound ways in which many of the deep principles of the Dharma can be found in, say, great art, and even in science, not to mention philosophy, politics, management theory, economics... and not in the relatively superficial sense of "Buddhist art" but something far more interesting and surprising. These explorations I think are only just beginning, and there's no way to know where they will end up.
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