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Topic 470: Paula Span's New Old Age Blog for the NY Times: Let's discuss!
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Paula Span's New Old Age Blog for the NY Times: Let's discuss!
permalink #26 of 99: Cindy Smith (clsmith) Wed 13 Nov 13 11:49
permalink #26 of 99: Cindy Smith (clsmith) Wed 13 Nov 13 11:49
<scribbled by clsmith Wed 13 Nov 13 12:08>
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Paula Span's New Old Age Blog for the NY Times: Let's discuss!
permalink #27 of 99: lies straight from the Pit of Hell (crow) Wed 13 Nov 13 15:39
permalink #27 of 99: lies straight from the Pit of Hell (crow) Wed 13 Nov 13 15:39
I didn't like the essay. I'm also one of the ones who thinks Mrs. Klass can and should make more of an effort. I'm also very glad I'm not related to her. She reminded me some of my MIL who is disabled from a stroke in her 30s and finds it hard to accept help. To the extent that she would try to pick up a heavy pan from the stove - "I've got it, I don't need help!" - and then drop it, because she really couldn't do it. There were plenty of things she could do an everyone respected her for those; it seemed weird that she couldn't accept help for things she couldn't do, like lift heavy things with two hands. She's living further away now and I don't see her so often so I don't get so annoyed. My mom, who is much older, is very flexible about being helped, and I appreciate that a lot.
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Paula Span's New Old Age Blog for the NY Times: Let's discuss!
permalink #28 of 99: Pamela McCorduck (pamela) Wed 13 Nov 13 18:37
permalink #28 of 99: Pamela McCorduck (pamela) Wed 13 Nov 13 18:37
I didn't say Mrs. Klass should be "grateful." I said "gracious." A difference. (I personally would be grateful, but obviously, I'm not her.) The hearing loss is a tremendous issue, and thanks, <brady>, for bringing it up. As my mother got older, we really began to think she was losing her marbles--her responses to conversation were so inappropriate. No, turned out she was just getting deaf, and wouldn't concede. Even when we finally coaxed her into getting hearing aids, she hated them and would seldom wear them. I hope to God the technology is improving, because it's genetic, and I realize my own hearing isn't what it used to be.
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Paula Span's New Old Age Blog for the NY Times: Let's discuss!
permalink #29 of 99: Lisa Harris (lrph) Wed 13 Nov 13 18:43
permalink #29 of 99: Lisa Harris (lrph) Wed 13 Nov 13 18:43
My grandmother decided to wear the hearing aids when she realized she was missing conversations with her daughter and grandchildren. It pained her to miss even a moment of time with us. I am grateful she was willing to go out on that limb. It was hard to give up on the little bit of vanity. Recently I have learned about otosclerosis and the related surgery (stapectomy) which can be done to replace the stape with a titanium or plastic or metal prosthetic stape.
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Paula Span's New Old Age Blog for the NY Times: Let's discuss!
permalink #30 of 99: Paula Span (pspan) Wed 13 Nov 13 19:43
permalink #30 of 99: Paula Span (pspan) Wed 13 Nov 13 19:43
The technology IS getting better, but what's maddening is that Medicare will pay for a cochlear implant, which costs tens of thousands of dollars, but won't pay for hearing aids. And a good digital aid can cost -- well, brady, you probably know better than me -- a few thousand bucks, right? And a lot of folks need two. Simply out of reach for most older people on Medicare. But the implants are recommended for people who already have hearing aids and whose hearing loss has progressed to the point where the aids don't do the job anymore. I kind of wonder if we'll be more apt to use this technology than our parent s have been or were. Maybe people willing to wear Google glass or whatever follows won't be all vain about wearing a hearing aid or the external equipment for an implant⥠Hearing loss is so major. Worse, in that it shuts down communication, even than loss of sight, in my book. And the research is mounting that shows a connection with dementia.
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Paula Span's New Old Age Blog for the NY Times: Let's discuss!
permalink #31 of 99: Jane Hirshfield (jh) Wed 13 Nov 13 22:44
permalink #31 of 99: Jane Hirshfield (jh) Wed 13 Nov 13 22:44
paula, have you ever written about smell and palate in old age? I know I've seen some articles suggesting that diminished olfaction is a marker for dementia, and have never heard of any equivalent to eye glasses or hearing aids when it comes to smell and taste. What if, as with hearing, it might be partly correctable, and aid the brain if it were?
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Paula Span's New Old Age Blog for the NY Times: Let's discuss!
permalink #32 of 99: Gary Greenberg (gberg) Thu 14 Nov 13 08:31
permalink #32 of 99: Gary Greenberg (gberg) Thu 14 Nov 13 08:31
I've been anosmic (no sense of smell) for the last 25 years or so. No idea why, although I do know, courtesy of a brain MRI, that I don't have a brain tumor (or didn't then), and I can tell you that there is no equivalent to sight or hearing aids for the noseblind, probably because we hav enowhere near the level of understanding of the olfactory system as we do of the visual or auditory. Whether ansomia a marker for dementia isn't clear, although there is suggestive evidence, as there also is for depression (although in this case it may just be a reaction to not being able to smell, which, let me assure you, is really dispiriting if you think about it, although it does make you a champion diaper changer, dog deskunker, and chicken house shoveler.) I've experienced plenty depression, but I suppose dementia is one of those things I'd be the last to know about.
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Paula Span's New Old Age Blog for the NY Times: Let's discuss!
permalink #33 of 99: Pamela McCorduck (pamela) Thu 14 Nov 13 17:12
permalink #33 of 99: Pamela McCorduck (pamela) Thu 14 Nov 13 17:12
A friend of mine turned anosmic from a fall when he hit his head. It was horrible for him. Food was suddenly uninteresting, and other more subtle effects. It has come back a little bit for him, but it's still a major loss.
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Paula Span's New Old Age Blog for the NY Times: Let's discuss!
permalink #34 of 99: Pamela McCorduck (pamela) Thu 14 Nov 13 17:30
permalink #34 of 99: Pamela McCorduck (pamela) Thu 14 Nov 13 17:30
So, to the socially assistive robots talk today, and it was interesting, both for what the lecturer (a scientist at USC) said, and what she didn't say. These are socially assistive robots--they don't clean the house or walk the dog. Encapsulated, turns out s.a. robots--they don't have to be very smart, or even very humanoid--can be very effective in working with stroke victims, Alzheimer's patients, and autistic children (three of the places where this team has worked). The care gap is enormous--worldwide, in the billions of people who need help. No way humans are going to be able to step in and help other humans this way. The lecturer made the point that these s.a. robots are intended to enhance the care humans give, not replace it. With the elderly, they function as coaches and assistants. They keep the elderly motivated in what are generally dull, depressing tasks, such as exercising a limb that has been affected by a stroke, or keeping an Alzheimer patient exercising and amused. Humans are eager to ascribe agency to almost anything ("my dog understands every word I say") so they willingly ascribe agency to the simplest of robots. (This was particularly interesting to me because I'd spent yesterday watching quite humanoid robots in tasks that didn't require social interaction, but required subtle motor skills, so that they could work in places like Fukushima.) Very important to humans is an embodied presence in their companion (as opposed to an on-screen companion). It doesn't have to look human; but it needs to be in the real world in three dimensions and its embodiment has a measurably strong behavioral influence on the client. Well, on and on. It was an interesting hour and a half.
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Paula Span's New Old Age Blog for the NY Times: Let's discuss!
permalink #35 of 99: Lena M. Diethelm (lendie) Thu 14 Nov 13 18:07
permalink #35 of 99: Lena M. Diethelm (lendie) Thu 14 Nov 13 18:07
<scribbled by lendie Thu 14 Nov 13 18:08>
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Paula Span's New Old Age Blog for the NY Times: Let's discuss!
permalink #36 of 99: Lena M. Diethelm (lendie) Thu 14 Nov 13 18:09
permalink #36 of 99: Lena M. Diethelm (lendie) Thu 14 Nov 13 18:09
Marty Spergel appeared via robot at the Reunion of the Homebrew Computer Club this past Monday. Googling should get you a pic or two of "him".
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Paula Span's New Old Age Blog for the NY Times: Let's discuss!
permalink #37 of 99: With catlike tread (sumac) Thu 14 Nov 13 22:06
permalink #37 of 99: With catlike tread (sumac) Thu 14 Nov 13 22:06
The discussion of hearing aids makes me think I would like to read a diatribe against them. I'm NOT against them, but I would love to understand why so many people with hearing difficultis hate them, won't use them, don't turn them on, etc. I'd like to read a screed from someone who feels that way. (In a line with the cantankerous individual discussed above -- which I understand much better than the hearing aid thing.)
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Paula Span's New Old Age Blog for the NY Times: Let's discuss!
permalink #38 of 99: Eric Rawlins (woodman) Fri 15 Nov 13 07:21
permalink #38 of 99: Eric Rawlins (woodman) Fri 15 Nov 13 07:21
I've always wondered about that too. There seems to be a shame element to having poor hearing that doesn't apply to poor vision, broken bones, back trouble, etc.
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Paula Span's New Old Age Blog for the NY Times: Let's discuss!
permalink #39 of 99: Paula Span (pspan) Fri 15 Nov 13 09:41
permalink #39 of 99: Paula Span (pspan) Fri 15 Nov 13 09:41
It's a communications disorder, as opposed to a purely physical one, so people feel stupid/pitied/judged when they can't understand what people say. THey withdraw socially, which is isolating and dangerous in itself. And it's true, given how much technology has supposedly improved hearing aids, that lots of people either hate them or are incensed that they cost thousands of dollars and aren't covered by Medicare. Which is perfectly happy to reimburse for cochlear implant surgery which costs 10 times more and might work for people whose hearing aids no longer help them hear. Now if we could just do something about that intervening 20 years or so.
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Paula Span's New Old Age Blog for the NY Times: Let's discuss!
permalink #40 of 99: Paula Span (pspan) Fri 15 Nov 13 09:45
permalink #40 of 99: Paula Span (pspan) Fri 15 Nov 13 09:45
Pamela, I'm wondering how these robots keep people with dementia amused and "exercised." They have voices, I imagine, but how do they provide motivation? Do they escort people with iffy balance and stamina? Smell and taste -- I've really read very little about this in the geriatric literature. Both decline with age, and I could see where their loss would contribute to unwanted weight loss which, in turn, is associated with frailty. And eating is one of the final pleasures for some very old or ailing people, so being unable to taste and smell would be a major bummer.
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Paula Span's New Old Age Blog for the NY Times: Let's discuss!
permalink #41 of 99: Nancy Montgomery (nan) Fri 15 Nov 13 14:21
permalink #41 of 99: Nancy Montgomery (nan) Fri 15 Nov 13 14:21
There was a contestant on Project Runway who had been deaf most of his life until he had an implant and a subsequent hearing aid. On the show, he noted that lots of voices could be irritating, and he sometimes turned his hearing aid off to get some relief. And though he was very happy to be able to hear, he appreciated those times when he turned it off, too. I can see where it might be unsettling to be surrounded by so much noise after being used to quiet.
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Paula Span's New Old Age Blog for the NY Times: Let's discuss!
permalink #42 of 99: With catlike tread (sumac) Fri 15 Nov 13 15:03
permalink #42 of 99: With catlike tread (sumac) Fri 15 Nov 13 15:03
Some of the above factors (like shame) prevent people from getting hearing aids. But why do people who get them -- either willingly or because pressured by relatives -- not wear them? Or wear them but NOT TURN THEM ON? I guess it's that last that I really wonder about. Is it simply and only denial? Or are they unpleasant in a way I don't understand?
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Paula Span's New Old Age Blog for the NY Times: Let's discuss!
permalink #43 of 99: lies straight from the Pit of Hell (crow) Fri 15 Nov 13 15:22
permalink #43 of 99: lies straight from the Pit of Hell (crow) Fri 15 Nov 13 15:22
They don't work very well. It's not enough to just make things louder, because that's not the way we hear. If you imagine a party where it's loud but a person with normal hearing can have a conversation with one person - people with hearing loss have a hard time with that, and aids don't fix it very well. Or a person has lost sounds in one range but not another so they can hear some sounds well but not others. again, hearing aids don't do well.
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Paula Span's New Old Age Blog for the NY Times: Let's discuss!
permalink #44 of 99: Paula Span (pspan) Fri 15 Nov 13 15:42
permalink #44 of 99: Paula Span (pspan) Fri 15 Nov 13 15:42
I don't actually know why, but a few possibilities: The kind that fit in your ear, which are less noticeable, are quite small and people with reduced manual dexterity or arthritis may have trouble placing them or removing them. (Plus, have you SEEN the size of hearing aid batteries, which have to be replaced every other week or so? TINY.) They may, as Elizabeth says, just amplify sound but don't allow users to distinguish sounds from backgrounds. The better digital ones apparently do a better job of that, but they're pricey. They're associated with age and debility, which lots of people don't want to cop to. They're a visible sign of decline. Like walkers and canes, which a lot of older people also acquire but don't use.
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Paula Span's New Old Age Blog for the NY Times: Let's discuss!
permalink #45 of 99: Renshin Bunce (renshin) Fri 15 Nov 13 17:55
permalink #45 of 99: Renshin Bunce (renshin) Fri 15 Nov 13 17:55
I visit lots of people in facilities who have/need hearing aids. Once dementia has set in, it's hard for patients to deal with them without help. And it's my observation that staff in facilities are careless with hearing aids. They'll put them on patients and ignore the fact that the batteries need replacing. The aids themselves get lost, and family members can get pretty impatient with replacing them multiple times.
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Paula Span's New Old Age Blog for the NY Times: Let's discuss!
permalink #46 of 99: Pamela McCorduck (pamela) Fri 15 Nov 13 17:56
permalink #46 of 99: Pamela McCorduck (pamela) Fri 15 Nov 13 17:56
Paula, I don't know the answer to your questions about keeping the Alzheimer's patients amused. What I saw were videos of the robot doing a kind of Simon-Says exercise routine with an Alzheimer's patient. Alzheimer's patients (according to the speaker) would say,"I can't get my hair done tomorrow; my buddy is coming." Nobody in this facility got their hair done; nobody left the front door, but the robot was considered a "buddy," and anticipated. The hearing aid problem. Of course you'd like it small and inconspicuous, but then how do you handle it? Hearing is probably like vision; 2/3s of it is in the brain, not the hearing system. Supplemented by other sensory systems, e.g., vision. ("I can't hear you until I put on my glasses.")
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Paula Span's New Old Age Blog for the NY Times: Let's discuss!
permalink #47 of 99: Cindy Smith (clsmith) Fri 15 Nov 13 18:36
permalink #47 of 99: Cindy Smith (clsmith) Fri 15 Nov 13 18:36
My dad, who uses hearing aids, has the following complaints: they don't work well in noisy environments, like restaurants or shopping malls because all the sound, including background sound, is amped. This is aggravating to him because it means in many social environments, he might as well not bother. They work OK on some telephones, but not others for reasons he cannot determine. And, once in a while, he just gets tired of wearing them. They become uncomfortable and he has to take them out for a while.
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Paula Span's New Old Age Blog for the NY Times: Let's discuss!
permalink #48 of 99: Cindy Smith (clsmith) Fri 15 Nov 13 18:37
permalink #48 of 99: Cindy Smith (clsmith) Fri 15 Nov 13 18:37
And his hearing aids are not cheap.
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Paula Span's New Old Age Blog for the NY Times: Let's discuss!
permalink #49 of 99: Eric Rawlins (woodman) Sat 16 Nov 13 07:22
permalink #49 of 99: Eric Rawlins (woodman) Sat 16 Nov 13 07:22
Modern hearing aids don't just amplify the sound; they are heavily EQ'd toward the high end, and the EQ pattern is tunable to suit the needs of each user. I've heard (heh) good things from the people I know who have them, though I have no first-hand experience myself.
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Paula Span's New Old Age Blog for the NY Times: Let's discuss!
permalink #50 of 99: Brady Lea (brady) Sat 16 Nov 13 11:35
permalink #50 of 99: Brady Lea (brady) Sat 16 Nov 13 11:35
Yes, what Woodman said. David got two in the last few months. They were about $3500 each. They are digital and they are pretty much invisible, esp. since he wears glasses. He has several settings that can continue to be adjusted by the audiologist. For certain settings you want the full spectrum of sound, for others, they can play around so that you'll hear the range of the voices of the people who are near you, with less background noise. Even so, just a couple years before he was told he was not a good candidate for hearing aids because of the particular quality of his hearing loss. Not only could he not hear, he couldn't make out specific syllables. While he says the aids are a big improvement and have made some social things more possible again, they aren't perfect. But we've been given homework that we haven't done very well at completing. I am supposed to read to him, for example. And that will give him something to focus on and he can practice making out all the elements of words again. Because a big part of his hearing loss included tinnitus, he has spent a lot of the last few years trying to ignore everything he heard, because it included a lot of annoying sounds. So, now that he can hear stuff again, he needs to relearn how to sort out which are the important sounds. (Being unable to do this is one of the issues with cochlear implants in young people or people who have never had close to normal hearing. They haven't lived their life sorting out voices from a truck going by and the wind in the trees.) I was surprised that someone who had pretty good hearing for most of his life could lose this ability, but it can happen.
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