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Topic 476: Sean Kay, The United States Confronts New Challenges in Ukraine and Russia
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Sean Kay, The United States Confronts New Challenges in Ukraine and Russia
permalink #76 of 133: Sean Kay (seankay11) Mon 14 Apr 14 05:32
permalink #76 of 133: Sean Kay (seankay11) Mon 14 Apr 14 05:32
On the Ukrainian military mobilization - either they will go in and try and remove the occupyers - or they are rather using this to signal deterrence capacity should the Russians themselves make a move into these cities - the later would make good sense, as there is a risk of force feeding into Putin's narrative... On the capital flight, I don't know about those rules, i.e. state controls on access to accounts and such - but many of those oligharchs already had a lot of their money oversees, and it might depend on what was being counted and how. As to their potential support - Putin has certainly handed out a lot of crony goodies to wealthy allies - up and down the system - but at the end of the day, in the long-haul it is them who stand the most to lose, and do - I think - serve as an internal constraint on how far Putin can or will push this.
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Sean Kay, The United States Confronts New Challenges in Ukraine and Russia
permalink #77 of 133: Scott Mauvais (smauvais) Mon 14 Apr 14 10:31
permalink #77 of 133: Scott Mauvais (smauvais) Mon 14 Apr 14 10:31
Regardless of regulations, there are always ways of getting money out. Look at all the creative ways of minimizing corp taxes.
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Sean Kay, The United States Confronts New Challenges in Ukraine and Russia
permalink #78 of 133: descend into a fractal hell of meta-truthiness (jmcarlin) Mon 14 Apr 14 10:32
permalink #78 of 133: descend into a fractal hell of meta-truthiness (jmcarlin) Mon 14 Apr 14 10:32
True, especially true where corruption is rampant.
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Sean Kay, The United States Confronts New Challenges in Ukraine and Russia
permalink #79 of 133: Igor Karpov (karpov) Mon 14 Apr 14 11:49
permalink #79 of 133: Igor Karpov (karpov) Mon 14 Apr 14 11:49
So, the accusations made by the Russian government, were true. CIA director was in Kiev on the day of the "anti-terrorist operation.": <http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/14/us-ukraine-crisis-obama-idUSBREA3D1D H20140414>
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Sean Kay, The United States Confronts New Challenges in Ukraine and Russia
permalink #80 of 133: searchlight casting (jstrahl) Mon 14 Apr 14 12:46
permalink #80 of 133: searchlight casting (jstrahl) Mon 14 Apr 14 12:46
The Ukrainian government's deadline came and went, more government offices are being seized in more towns. One gets the impression that the Ukrainian government may be having a hard time getting its armed forces to do anything, filled as they are with officers who started out with the Red Army, i.e. back when the Soviet Union was still in existence.
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Sean Kay, The United States Confronts New Challenges in Ukraine and Russia
permalink #81 of 133: Sean Kay (seankay11) Mon 14 Apr 14 12:58
permalink #81 of 133: Sean Kay (seankay11) Mon 14 Apr 14 12:58
True - both on corruption, capital flight (a lot of the Russian money was already in safe-havens abroad and little being taxed at home) and the limits on the Ukrainian army - the same is the case with the police - many who are pro-Ukrainian but also with Russian sympathies. Many also are afraid as to who might in the end actually rule, and so are staying on the sidelines. I guess its not really politically correct, but I wonder if it wouldn't make best sense for the Ukrainian gov't to just ignore those protestors - move the operations elsewhere, let them have their buildings - they have very low public support, and in a vacuum would probably just fade away. I'm not sure a direct confrontation helps anything other than, potentially Putin in an odd way.
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Sean Kay, The United States Confronts New Challenges in Ukraine and Russia
permalink #82 of 133: those Andropovian bongs (rik) Mon 14 Apr 14 18:41
permalink #82 of 133: those Andropovian bongs (rik) Mon 14 Apr 14 18:41
Those are tactics that make sense at this point.
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Sean Kay, The United States Confronts New Challenges in Ukraine and Russia
permalink #83 of 133: Angie Coiro (coiro) Mon 14 Apr 14 19:41
permalink #83 of 133: Angie Coiro (coiro) Mon 14 Apr 14 19:41
I don't suppose there's any likelihood of that actually happening, Sean? The simplicity of it is almost amusing - "Okay, guys, here's your building. Later!" Meanwhile - so much for the spontaneous demonstrations by local self-defense groups - <http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/04/14/internet-evidence-contradicts-russ ian-claims-on-ukraine-western-diplomats-say/> I wonder if there's any actual benefit to pointing out the obvious. Did anyone genuinely believe otherwise?
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Sean Kay, The United States Confronts New Challenges in Ukraine and Russia
permalink #84 of 133: searchlight casting (jstrahl) Mon 14 Apr 14 21:12
permalink #84 of 133: searchlight casting (jstrahl) Mon 14 Apr 14 21:12
In the meantime, they are taking more buildings and other facilities, including an airport in the Donetsk region. Reports tonight of Ukrainian military units moving in that region, including armor. And a Russian jet fighter buzzed a US destroyer in the Black Sea about a dozen times yesterday. To me it doesn't seem like Putin is too worried about any consequences. Just saying.
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Sean Kay, The United States Confronts New Challenges in Ukraine and Russia
permalink #85 of 133: descend into a fractal hell of meta-truthiness (jmcarlin) Mon 14 Apr 14 21:22
permalink #85 of 133: descend into a fractal hell of meta-truthiness (jmcarlin) Mon 14 Apr 14 21:22
Something I just read is that Russia has a different economic weapon - palladium: Russia has a secret weapon against the West, and its not oil, gas or nukes ... Russia is the worlds largest producer of the metal, a crucial ingredient for catalytic converters in cars, capacitors in electronics, dental crowns, jewelry, and much else besides. As the West threatens tougher sanctions against Russia for its perceived provocations in eastern Ukraine, Russia may try to do equal damage with trade restrictions of its own. Limiting palladium exports may be a useful weaponharsher than the travel bans imposed on key Western officials, but not as provocative as oil or gas embargoes. What gives Russia a strong hand in a potential game of palladium politics is that miners are on strike in South Africa, which happens to be the worlds second-largest palladium producer. Some 80,000 miners walked out in January over a pay dispute, and have yet to return to work. Between them, Russia and South Africa control more than three-quarters of the worlds palladium supply, according to Johnson tonnes (25.4 tons), so stocks were already running low. ... <http://qz.com/198942/russia-has-a-secret-weapon-against-the-west-and-its-not-o il-gas-or-nukes/> http://tinyurl.com/m39xhkl
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Sean Kay, The United States Confronts New Challenges in Ukraine and Russia
permalink #86 of 133: searchlight casting (jstrahl) Mon 14 Apr 14 21:34
permalink #86 of 133: searchlight casting (jstrahl) Mon 14 Apr 14 21:34
And now this new factor. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-14/blowback-protesters-kiev-demand-resig nation-ukraine-president Demonstrators in Kyiv are calling for the government to resign unless it takes action against the occupations in the east within 24 hours.
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Sean Kay, The United States Confronts New Challenges in Ukraine and Russia
permalink #87 of 133: Darrell Jonsson (jonsson) Mon 14 Apr 14 23:59
permalink #87 of 133: Darrell Jonsson (jonsson) Mon 14 Apr 14 23:59
I don't understand why they did not surround the vulnerable buildings with tanks, or otherwise fortify public buildings earlier.
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Sean Kay, The United States Confronts New Challenges in Ukraine and Russia
permalink #88 of 133: Igor Karpov (karpov) Tue 15 Apr 14 00:17
permalink #88 of 133: Igor Karpov (karpov) Tue 15 Apr 14 00:17
The main question's here is _who_ would want to do this in Donetsk.
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Sean Kay, The United States Confronts New Challenges in Ukraine and Russia
permalink #89 of 133: Sean Kay (seankay11) Tue 15 Apr 14 06:36
permalink #89 of 133: Sean Kay (seankay11) Tue 15 Apr 14 06:36
All super comments - thanks. Yes, Angie, that is true - and also there is clear evidence of professional Russian soldiers intermixed. Still - so far - the evidence is that Putin is trying to shape the outcome of some kind of final settlement on Ukraine's future political status - and that if he can do this with local forces and some covert operations, and avoid doing it with an invasion proper, he likely will do that - I think they are actually very concerned about the effects of escalating sanctions and know they would come if they used overt force. Milosevic, for a year in the Kosovo war used to say "a village a day, keeps NATO away" - it was pretty offensive but it worked for a time, when the credibility of the west finally proved too important to let him continue to get away with it. In this case that applies to escalating sanctions that Russia can ill-afford. Merkel's comment yesterday that Germany's ties to the western alliance are more important than its business interests in Russia was an important signal. Putin is shrewd, and consequently dangerous, but so far he hasn't done much that isn't expected or predictable. The major worry is that slow moving events get a spark that causes out and out conflict and war - then it becomes a very dangerous situation - and thus the urgency to get to a deal that de-escalates it - there will be diplomacy this week, I continue to see this as posturing heading into that. Note that Ukrainian forces have commenced their operations, but only a tiny bit. They are playing a smart move so far themselves by signaling presence but avoiding conflict, as shooting only likely feeds into Putin's game plan.
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Sean Kay, The United States Confronts New Challenges in Ukraine and Russia
permalink #90 of 133: Igor Karpov (karpov) Tue 15 Apr 14 07:59
permalink #90 of 133: Igor Karpov (karpov) Tue 15 Apr 14 07:59
The more I read western sources and statements, made by western politicians, the more it seems to me that no one there can not understand or want to understand Mr.Putin, the situation at whole and its likely consequences. All the pressure on Russia will lead to very different results than expected. The main result will be that Russians will lose the remaining illusions and come to the conclusion that the U.S. (and to a lesser extent Europe) are their enemy. I have already quoted some anonymous employee of the Russian defense industry who said: "we thought they hate us because we are red, but now we know they hate us because we are Russians". There's no need for authorities to suppress NGOs anymore - ordinary citizens will do the job. Russia (I say Russia, not Putin, because Putin now _is_ the Russia for the most of population, thanks to the West attempts to indicate Russia's new place in the world) neither leave the Crimea nor leave the East of Ukraine alone. By the way, the idea of ​​some oligarchs who allegedly begin pressuring Putin because of measures taken by the West, seems just ridiculous to me. Ask Khodorkovsky, if you don't believe me. The European economy will receive a hit from which it can not recover for a long time. Russia will probably look for the new allies all around the globe. I don't know whether it manage to find the good ones but some countries will be just happy to this new reality. Ukraine will stay the poorest country in Europe, suffering from internal conflicts, for decades - at least. And yes, the Eastern regions will use any possibility to quit - if Russia won't tear them away right now.
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Sean Kay, The United States Confronts New Challenges in Ukraine and Russia
permalink #91 of 133: searchlight casting (jstrahl) Tue 15 Apr 14 09:30
permalink #91 of 133: searchlight casting (jstrahl) Tue 15 Apr 14 09:30
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-15/unidentified-fighter-jets-open-fire-k ramatorsk-airfield-casualties-reported Reports of jet fighters, and of 11 dead in the Ukrainian operation to retake Kramatorsk. Hard to get hard news.
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Sean Kay, The United States Confronts New Challenges in Ukraine and Russia
permalink #92 of 133: descend into a fractal hell of meta-truthiness (jmcarlin) Tue 15 Apr 14 10:04
permalink #92 of 133: descend into a fractal hell of meta-truthiness (jmcarlin) Tue 15 Apr 14 10:04
Good points, <karpov>. Russia's xenophobia and paranoia are being fed the effects of their own actions. They act in such a way that demands a response and then use that response to deepen their own fear and hatred. In math it's called a positive feedback loop. But I think the West understand Putin very well - he longs for the old days of the USSR and is trying to take steps to recreate what is dead and gone along with encouraging and presumably getting support from oligarchs.
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Sean Kay, The United States Confronts New Challenges in Ukraine and Russia
permalink #93 of 133: Igor Karpov (karpov) Tue 15 Apr 14 11:13
permalink #93 of 133: Igor Karpov (karpov) Tue 15 Apr 14 11:13
If so, then it was a deliberate provocation, inciting the coup in Ukraine. Russia won't tolerate NATO near its borders. I bet they consider this a matter of life and death. Ukraine is just a chessboard for USA and Russia. And no matter who win, Ukraine is a loser.
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Sean Kay, The United States Confronts New Challenges in Ukraine and Russia
permalink #94 of 133: Jef Poskanzer (jef) Tue 15 Apr 14 13:31
permalink #94 of 133: Jef Poskanzer (jef) Tue 15 Apr 14 13:31
Yes. Although some of Ukraine's wounds are self-inflicted.
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Sean Kay, The United States Confronts New Challenges in Ukraine and Russia
permalink #95 of 133: Jeffrey G. Strahl (jstrahl) Tue 15 Apr 14 17:43
permalink #95 of 133: Jeffrey G. Strahl (jstrahl) Tue 15 Apr 14 17:43
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/turchynov-anti-terrorist-operation-has -begun-in-northern-donetsk-343563.html Four dead in today's fighting, Ukrainian PM claims several hundred Russian soldiers are in eastern Ukraine.
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Sean Kay, The United States Confronts New Challenges in Ukraine and Russia
permalink #96 of 133: Darrell Jonsson (jonsson) Wed 16 Apr 14 08:03
permalink #96 of 133: Darrell Jonsson (jonsson) Wed 16 Apr 14 08:03
"Two oblasts in particular, Luhansk and Donetsk, saw an estimated 50 percent of police personnel switch allegiance to Russian occupying forces and local pro-Russian separatists that have occupied government and police buildings." It sounds like it is just getting to be more of a mess.
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Sean Kay, The United States Confronts New Challenges in Ukraine and Russia
permalink #97 of 133: Igor Karpov (karpov) Wed 16 Apr 14 08:21
permalink #97 of 133: Igor Karpov (karpov) Wed 16 Apr 14 08:21
I'd like to see at least one evidence of existence of these mythical occupying forces and/or diversionists...
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Sean Kay, The United States Confronts New Challenges in Ukraine and Russia
permalink #98 of 133: Ron Levin (eclectic2) Wed 16 Apr 14 09:20
permalink #98 of 133: Ron Levin (eclectic2) Wed 16 Apr 14 09:20
Ukraine Powerless to Act as East Slips Under Russian Control With military assistance from NATO unlikely to be forthcoming and little faith in its own military or police, Ukraine has no choice but to watch as its eastern regions gradually cede control to Russia On Monday afternoon, a line of defecting officers officers from the Ukrainian police lined up outside their ransacked headquarters in the town of Gorlovka, in eastern Ukraine, to receive orders from their puckish new commander. Their station had been seized hours earlier by a mob of pro-Russian demonstrators, and instead of resisting many of its officers capitulated or, as they put it, went over to the side of the people. Greeting them outside the building with a military salute, the apparent leader of the siege, a man in fatigues who identified himself as Alexander Shulzhenko, stated his rank as lieutenant colonel. Of what? one of the Ukrainian policemen asked him. Of the Russian army, Shulzhenko said. That brief exchange, which was captured on video and posted to YouTube within hours, was among the clearest pieces of evidence that Russian troops have already begun their takeover of the region of Donetsk, much as they did last month in Ukraines Crimean peninsula. But instead of sending tanks across the border, Russia seems to have chosen a more subtle form of invasion coordinating the mobs of local men who have been seizing government buildings in a handful of cities and towns and declaring independence from Kiev. More: <http://time.com/61971/ukraine-powerless-to-act-as-east-slips-under-russian-con trol/>
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Sean Kay, The United States Confronts New Challenges in Ukraine and Russia
permalink #99 of 133: Igor Karpov (karpov) Wed 16 Apr 14 10:44
permalink #99 of 133: Igor Karpov (karpov) Wed 16 Apr 14 10:44
I can't believe the lieutenant colonel of the Russian army would disclose his affiliation to it. This sounds stupid. Also, why lieutenant colonel does the job of a lieutenant? Maybe he's an Ukrainian agent-provocateur but most likely it's just not a very normal person.
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Sean Kay, The United States Confronts New Challenges in Ukraine and Russia
permalink #100 of 133: Angie Coiro (coiro) Wed 16 Apr 14 12:46
permalink #100 of 133: Angie Coiro (coiro) Wed 16 Apr 14 12:46
That is ... odd, to say the least. Today CNN posted this analysis of Ukraine's potential to walk away from the non-proliferation treaty. <www.cnn.com/2014/04/16/opinion/hall-ukraine-russia-putin-nuclear/index.html&g t; Sean, your thoughts on how likely this is, and how it would change the picture?
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