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permalink #51 of 177: Darrell Jonsson (jonsson) Wed 18 Jan 17 07:50
permalink #51 of 177: Darrell Jonsson (jonsson) Wed 18 Jan 17 07:50
<scribbled by jonsson Wed 18 Jan 17 08:34>
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permalink #52 of 177: Darrell Jonsson (jonsson) Wed 18 Jan 17 08:34
permalink #52 of 177: Darrell Jonsson (jonsson) Wed 18 Jan 17 08:34
The fluid border between the 'genres' is fascinating to explore, for instance how R&B and Country are connected via Ray Charles and even Motown. Speaking of which, were/Are there any live Motown Revue shows compiled or released on LP/CD or film/video? Also Ed are you any relation to Wade and Fields Ward from the Bogtrotters?
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permalink #53 of 177: Ed Ward (captward) Wed 18 Jan 17 09:37
permalink #53 of 177: Ed Ward (captward) Wed 18 Jan 17 09:37
#50: That's a subtext in the latter half of the book which will really flower in the second volume: the extent to which the audience became the content provider, and wound up controlling the business. #52: A lot of poor people relished entertainment that they could access through a cheap radio, so that the Grand Ole Opry and the Chicago Barndance and the Louisiana Hayride had large black listenerships. I believe there's a part in Carl Perkins' book about a black family in his sharecropper compound who hosted listening parties, and I believe Bobby Bland told a similar story. But no, those aren't my Wards.
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permalink #54 of 177: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Wed 18 Jan 17 19:18
permalink #54 of 177: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Wed 18 Jan 17 19:18
By the way, while it's sort of a side trip in R&R history (except for its influence on the nascent Beatles), thanks for the chapter on Skiffle music. Other than having heard Lonnie Donegan do "Rock Island Line" I knew pretty much none of that stuff. Ok, back to the audience... Am I right in thinking that another subtext in the book is that the further you go into the 1950s, the younger the audience gets? To go way back, the implied audience for most R&B hits in the late 1940s seems to be adults who might have had a bit to drink ("Oh Richard, won't you open that door!"). By the mid 1950s that stuff is still around (Carl Perkins "Dixie Fried," for example), but the music starts to be focused much more on teenagers. And as you point out is often performed by teenagers. By the early 1960s, I'm going to guess that a good chunk of the audience is actually older children, especially girls (all those fanatical "transistor sisters"). Might account for the juvenile quality people note in some of the hits of the immediate pre-Beatles period. You bet it's juvenile - it was being sold to juveniles! I guess age of audience is another way of parsing out musical trends and eras. This would be in volume II, but you see adult-focused music gloriously re-emerge in the classic soul music of the later 1960s and early 1970s, which is very definitely *not* about teenagers.
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permalink #55 of 177: Ed Ward (captward) Thu 19 Jan 17 09:40
permalink #55 of 177: Ed Ward (captward) Thu 19 Jan 17 09:40
Skiffle was basically third-hand second-wave American folk revival, from the Weavers' era, done through a transatlantic filter, but it was one of the first instances of the audience making its own music. Also, Ramblin' Jack Elliot was in Britain making trouble, being worshipped for his authenticity, and pretending to be a cowboy, not the New York Jewish dentist's son he really was. But you're right about the audience getting younger: I was 8 when I first started listening to rock and roll, totally not interested in falling in love, girls, dancing, and so on. Why did it appeal to me? Good question. Let me get back to you, but don't hold your breath. Part of it was the incessant flood of ten-day-wonder novelty records: teenage angst would get interrupted on the radio by the Purple People Eater or Buchanan and Goodman's "Flying Saucer" or other "break-in" records. Adults, though, were always there. Those R&B records had two audiences: don't forget that back then, the primary market for them wasn't consumers, it was jukeboxes, and that a *lot* of consumers bought records from junk shops where worn out jukebox records were dumped. The performers played clubs where young, but drinking-age, black people went to dance and have a good time. In L.A., at the end of Central Avenue was Watts, which was more "country" black folks, and where a more guitar-centered, back-home vibe obtained. Those people didn't play the joints that Roy Milton, for instance, played. Milton's audience not only had those young-ish black people, but black jazz fans, slumming. (When they weren't slumming, they were listening to Oscar Moore, Charles Brown, Nat King Cole, and Billy Eckstine). But black teenagers in the late '40s? Forget it. They didn't have any disposable income and wouldn't until the mid-'50s. But that was the point where groups like the Platters were winning adult ears, and Dinah Washington and Ruth Brown were having rock and roll hits.
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permalink #56 of 177: Scott Underwood (esau) Thu 19 Jan 17 09:58
permalink #56 of 177: Scott Underwood (esau) Thu 19 Jan 17 09:58
I wonder if part of what happened was that these songs were just *catchier*, partly because the drums were more prominent and partly because the music was simpler and more repetitive. Previously, pop music had a complexity and sophistication that was beyond most people's abilities, but true folk music had always been somewhat easy to play and follow along with. Once that simplicity (and those jungle-y drums) hit the airwaves, it found a post-war generation at just the right time. It's a bit like what happened with punk twenty years later, and there was almost that same DIY sense that this hot new music was available to almost anyone.
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permalink #57 of 177: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Thu 19 Jan 17 10:05
permalink #57 of 177: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Thu 19 Jan 17 10:05
Ah, I never thought about $$ being the difference between Black teenagers and white teenagers in that era, but it's painfully obvious once you say it. I also only dimly realized, until I read the book, just how important jukeboxes were. I knew that jukebox sales were closely tracked, but I didn't understand that they were an important source of sales - *and* an important source of used records for sale. I have a record collector friend who talks about finding Black "party records" from that era - meaning records so worn out that it's like they had a party and danced on them. I'll bet the records he's talking about are actually ex-jukebox records. Another way the book wised me up: I thought there was some grand hidden logic to the incredibly disparate black music being produced at that time, which ranges from super-sophisticated to utterly low-down and rural. Nope, just different sub-audiences within the Black community (which of course, varied by local history and migration patterns). Central Avenue in L.A. is a great case in point - while white hipsters like Jack Kerouac were grooving to Charlie Parker, other clubs on the same street were featuring the likes of Wynonie Harris singing "Good Morning Judge" and "Don't Roll Those Bloodshot Eyes at Me." (I love Wynonie Harris, but talk about the other end of the sophistication continuum...). And that last one slipped in.
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permalink #58 of 177: Ed Ward (captward) Thu 19 Jan 17 10:47
permalink #58 of 177: Ed Ward (captward) Thu 19 Jan 17 10:47
I'll grab <mcdee>'s comments first here. I would have thought that "party records" referred to dirty comedy routines like Nipsy Russell and Redd Foxx and the like, but between cheap plastic on which the records were pressed, the really heavy stylus pressure that jukeboxes (especially ones that played the records vertically) exerted, and operators not changing them as often as was necessary, I can see that. The black-teenage protest record about economics that counts is "Get A Job" by the Silhouettes. Listen to the lyrics carefully: the guy's mother wants him to find a job, "every morning, get the paper/I read it through and through" but there isn't any work. Then he goes home and has to put up with his mother "preachin' and cryin'/Tell me that I'm lyin' about a job/That I never could find." This is of a piece with Chuck Berry's "Too Much Monkey Business" and the Coasters' "Shoppin' For Clothes," which are less of a folk expression, being written by older, and professional, songwriters, but aimed squarely at the same problem. And the folks on Central, down at the end where the Texas-born railroad workers were living in Watts, where the streets weren't even paved yet, were going to Johnny Otis' Barrelhouse and listening to stuff like Pee Wee Crayton and Smokey Smothers, a big degree of sophistication below Wynonie Harris.
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permalink #59 of 177: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Thu 19 Jan 17 10:56
permalink #59 of 177: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Thu 19 Jan 17 10:56
And Skiffle tracks right to the Beattle's who started out as a skiffle band.
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permalink #60 of 177: Ed Ward (captward) Thu 19 Jan 17 10:57
permalink #60 of 177: Ed Ward (captward) Thu 19 Jan 17 10:57
And <esau> has a point, too: the teenagers' tunes were more, if you will, bubblegummy, in part because the people creating them weren't in their late 20s and early 30s and with an ear attuned to jazz. One reason Frankie Lymon and the Teenagers' "Why Do Fools Fall In Love" was such a smash was because it combined contemporary vocal group singing techniques with a much more sophisticated harmonic structure than the standard ones, but with lyrics written by a real 13-year-old. Compare it to "I'm Not A Juvenile Delinquent," which wasn't quite as spontaneous a production and you'll hear the difference. Those stories of groups discovered singing in echo-y subway stations and beneath lampposts were real, although the best vocal groups had at least some church background. And rockabilly, well, that was pure alcohol and hormones in the South, which is why most of the labels who'd made big bucks with rhythm and blues had no idea what to do with it, and Sun (and King, which had always paid attention to the fringes of country, because they weren't in Nashville) cleaned up for a while.
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permalink #61 of 177: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Thu 19 Jan 17 10:58
permalink #61 of 177: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Thu 19 Jan 17 10:58
<57> Jukeboxes and pool halls were IT! in my day, and generally where you met up with other subcultures as well.
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permalink #62 of 177: Darrell Jonsson (jonsson) Thu 19 Jan 17 14:16
permalink #62 of 177: Darrell Jonsson (jonsson) Thu 19 Jan 17 14:16
It's all slightly before my time. In any case enjoying the book, as mentioned before it turns my 20-30 minute commute into a 4 minute commute, and has nearly caused me to forget to get off at my subway station several times. Related youtube search's have reconnected me with both artists (mentioned and not mentioned in the book) Percy Mayfield, Jerry Butler, Dock Boggs, and stellar roots acts like the Bogstompers. The entire thing is like turning on NPR and having the pleasant surprise of hearing one of Ed Ward's RnR history vignettes, at anytime of the day. One detail was the class thing and how it related to people getting into music in England. Remember when was the last time a member of English royalty/aristocracy posed next to a guitar... its usually a tank, a horse (fox hunt?) sort of thing. Later on groups like Pink Floyd were in a different category. You mention the Beatles being of "middle class" background but in the rubble and scramble of UK post-WWII, I'm not so sure if how the Beatles lived as children & teenagers compared to anything their "middle class" contemporaries in the USA experienced during the same period of time. Ed (correct me if I'm wrong) but I was under the impression for Ringo and Paul at least taking a bath during their early years required going to some kind of bath-house-for-pay type operation, as well plugging coins into a pay as you go heater was hardly USA standard middle class central heating.
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permalink #63 of 177: Ed Ward (captward) Thu 19 Jan 17 15:47
permalink #63 of 177: Ed Ward (captward) Thu 19 Jan 17 15:47
The Beatles *were* middle-class, though. Paul and George both had good educations and good jobs, Ringo's folks were perhaps not as well off as theirs but they did okay, and John, being raised by his single aunt, was something of an anomaly, but Mimi was *very* respectably middle-class, which is why John, before his mother's death, was living with her. Comparing their middle class with the one we grew up in over here just can't be done: the Beatles all grew up with wartime rationing, because England had a very slow post-war recovery. Who can forget Paul rhapsodizing over "chip butties," which were sandwiches of white-bread rolls (butties) with french fries inside them, doubtless sprinkled with salt and vinegar. These were treats for them. And part of the youth culture that exploded in England along with the Beatles was based on the fact that rationing had ended, and for the first time you could buy as much of whatever you wanted, if you had the money. They still ate chip butties on the Liverpool waterfront, though.
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permalink #64 of 177: U.K. Blues-rock question (jonsson) Fri 20 Jan 17 01:34
permalink #64 of 177: U.K. Blues-rock question (jonsson) Fri 20 Jan 17 01:34
Thanks for the answer I think it was Ringo not Paul (now that I remember) who in a BBC documentary interview talked about the public pay-for-a-bath situation. Paul as well in a BBC interview about the 60s Motown invasion compared his band's working class upbringing & living standards in Liverpool to that of the US R&B artists. Perhaps its hyperbole on Paul's part. It's been said elsewhere the UK's attachment to the blues is based on the WWII & post WWII realities of the situation there. From your point of view in the 50s and 60s was the UK interest in blues music proportional to other American based or derived forms of music?
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permalink #65 of 177: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Fri 20 Jan 17 03:58
permalink #65 of 177: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Fri 20 Jan 17 03:58
Thinking of where and how rock and roll was heard, the transition from radios to tv, like American Bandstand, where the typical kid review of a new song was "nice beat, and you can dance to it"... And Sock Hops: Sock hops were held early as 1944 by the American Junior Red Cross to raise funds during World War II.[2] They then became a fad among American teenagers in 1948.[3] Sock hops were commonly held at high schools and other educational institutions, often in the school gym or cafeteria. The term came about because dancers were required to remove their hard-soled shoes to protect the varnished floor of the gymnasium.[4] The music at a sock hop was usually played from vinyl records, sometimes presented by a disc jockey.[4] Occasionally there were also live bands. The popularity of sock hops coined the phrase Bobby soxer; which described the fans of Traditional pop music. In later years, "hops" became strongly associated with the 1950s and early rock and roll.[4] Danny and the Juniors sang "At the Hop" in 1957, which named many popular dances and otherwise documented what happened at a hop.[5] In subsequent decades, with the widespread popularity of sneakers and other types of indoors-only shoes, the practice of removing shoes was dropped. The term then came to be applied more generally to any informal dance for teenagers.[6] Just the whole mix of how the music was heard and delivered and then socially expressed all the way up to the ecstasy raves. Was there a break out moment when rock and roll had wiggled its way in to the mainstream?
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permalink #66 of 177: David Wilson (dlwilson) Fri 20 Jan 17 08:32
permalink #66 of 177: David Wilson (dlwilson) Fri 20 Jan 17 08:32
Speaking of Central Ave. in LA I always found that by thinking of a continuum of T-bone Walker at one end, Charles Brown in the middle, and Nat Cole at the other end, you could see where the blues, blues ballad, and jazz performers fit in by who they were influenced by.
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permalink #67 of 177: Ed Ward (captward) Fri 20 Jan 17 08:51
permalink #67 of 177: Ed Ward (captward) Fri 20 Jan 17 08:51
>>It's been said elsewhere the UK's attachment to the blues is based on the WWII & post WWII realities of the situation there. From your point of view in the 50s and 60s was the UK interest in blues music proportional to other American based or derived forms of music? I think, and I thought I made it clear in the book, that the London jazz scene's interest in blues was as a subset of jazz that some of the younger fans decided was of more interest than the jazz was, especially after American bluesmen started appearing at the jazz clubs. Then they made the connection between blues and skiffle -- mostly the DIY aspect of it -- and started tryin git themselves. I'm not sure what you mean about the interest being proportional; it's not exactly a quantifiable thing.
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permalink #68 of 177: Ed Ward (captward) Fri 20 Jan 17 08:59
permalink #68 of 177: Ed Ward (captward) Fri 20 Jan 17 08:59
Re: that continuum. Not exactly. Johnny Moore, the guitarist who led the Three Blazers, whose vocalist was Charles Brown, was the brother of Oscar Moore, who was Cole's guitarist. Both of them had big hits, but Cole was able to play white clubs in Hollywood, and Johnny Moore wasn't, for some reason. Of course, the Three Blazers had two big hits, "Driftin' Blues" and "Merry Christmas, Baby," both of which were sung by Charles Brown, who then went solo. I'd put the continuum from Pee-Wee Crayton to Charles Brown to Dexter Gordon, although it's fun to remember that Ornette Coleman played alto in Pee-Wee's band.
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permalink #69 of 177: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Fri 20 Jan 17 10:45
permalink #69 of 177: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Fri 20 Jan 17 10:45
Pee Wee Crayton was just a name to me. I'm listening on youtube now. Likable music. Lots of honking sax. Sounds like he was trying to be Johnny Guitar Watson, but with about 1/4 of his chops.
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permalink #70 of 177: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Fri 20 Jan 17 11:34
permalink #70 of 177: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Fri 20 Jan 17 11:34
Always thought the Howlin Wolf London Sessions was historical...where he teaches Clapton et al how to play the blues; not that they did not already have some familiarity with it.But that's next volume
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permalink #71 of 177: Ed Ward (captward) Fri 20 Jan 17 18:37
permalink #71 of 177: Ed Ward (captward) Fri 20 Jan 17 18:37
Well, according to Wikipedia (hate referring to them, but all my books are in boxes after the flood), Johnny Guitar Watson was, like Pee Wee, from Texas: Johnny from Houston and Pee-Wee from Austin (although it was his being taken up by Johnny Otis in LA that made his career).
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permalink #72 of 177: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Sat 21 Jan 17 11:32
permalink #72 of 177: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Sat 21 Jan 17 11:32
So what *was* the moment when, as Ted asked, rock and roll wriggled into the mainstream? Dick Clark's show going national? Alan Freed moving to NYC?
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permalink #73 of 177: Ed Ward (captward) Sat 21 Jan 17 11:40
permalink #73 of 177: Ed Ward (captward) Sat 21 Jan 17 11:40
I don't think we can point at a moment. It was incremental, as more and more younng people -- the rat in the python of the baby boom -- started voting with their allowances. I don't think it became the default popular music of the US, or even the world, until the early '70s. But I think the folk boom gave it an inital boost, for putting guitars in the hands of kids and making them see how easy it was to play basic chords and stuff. A great many folk guitarists graduated to electric and took their repertoire with them. But that's Vol. 2.
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permalink #74 of 177: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Sat 21 Jan 17 12:03
permalink #74 of 177: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Sat 21 Jan 17 12:03
So, skirting the edge of Vol. 1, there's a widespread perception that sort of goes like follows: 1) Elvis was really cool at first. 2) Then Elvis went into the Army and Buddy Holly died. 3) After that everything sucked until the Beatles showed up. I've actually read multiple articles and book chapters which point at the same song as characteristic of the period: "Itsy Bitsy Teeny Weenie Yellow Polka Dot Bikini" by Bryan Hyland. Even overlooking the fact that "Itsy Bitsy" is actually a pretty swell piece of pop craftsmanship, what does this view overlook?
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permalink #75 of 177: Scott Underwood (esau) Sat 21 Jan 17 12:03
permalink #75 of 177: Scott Underwood (esau) Sat 21 Jan 17 12:03
I really look forward to that, because I think the first book does a great job of laying out the foundation for what was to come, the funhouse mirror effect of white Americans inspired by white Brits doing black American songs, how folk music continued to be a presence, and the effect of new playing and listening technologies.
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