inkwell.vue.511
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The Second Impeachment of Donald Trump
permalink #0 of 76: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Wed 27 Jan 21 06:34
permalink #0 of 76: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Wed 27 Jan 21 06:34
The US House of Representatives impeached Donald Trump a second time. The impeachment was for Incitement of Insurrection, focusing on his January 6 rally and the insurrection at the US Capitol that followed.
inkwell.vue.511
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The Second Impeachment of Donald Trump
permalink #1 of 76: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Wed 27 Jan 21 06:34
permalink #1 of 76: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Wed 27 Jan 21 06:34
The Article of Impeachment says, in part: "President Trump gravely endangered the security of the United States and its institutions of Government. He threatened the integrity of the democratic system, interfered with the peaceful transition of power, and imperiled a coequal branch of Government. He thereby betrayed his trust as President, to the manifest injury of the people of the United States."
inkwell.vue.511
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The Second Impeachment of Donald Trump
permalink #2 of 76: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Wed 27 Jan 21 06:34
permalink #2 of 76: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Wed 27 Jan 21 06:34
The Article of Impeachment has been sent to the US Senate, and over the next few weeks we'll see a trial to determine whether Trump will be convicted. Here's a backgrounder from Vox: <https://www.vox.com/2021/1/25/22242329/senate-impeachment-trial-trump-rules> How likely is conviction? And what will we learn about Trump's actions and the insurrection?
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The Second Impeachment of Donald Trump
permalink #3 of 76: Ari Davidow (ari) Wed 27 Jan 21 08:39
permalink #3 of 76: Ari Davidow (ari) Wed 27 Jan 21 08:39
Given that all but five Senate Republicans voted to quash the impeachment, I'd say that the possibility of conviction is currently low. I have to wonder, though, if enough can be brought out - and somehow disseminated (I am mindful that during the first impeachment, for instance, Fox News didn't broadcast the words of the witnesses--instead they had their pundits talking over them.) so as to make the Trump brand synonymous with something distasteful, treasonous, and anti-American. That would be enough (and it would be a hill almost as hard to climb as getting a conviction, but one with much more consequential results).
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The Second Impeachment of Donald Trump
permalink #4 of 76: Peter Meuleners (pjm) Wed 27 Jan 21 08:47
permalink #4 of 76: Peter Meuleners (pjm) Wed 27 Jan 21 08:47
Ari's take is what I have been hoping for all along, including the first impeachment. Damage his optics as much as possible to reduce his role in the ongoing conversation. He could kill McConnell with a fire extinguisher on a Fox live broadcast and still not be convicted.
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The Second Impeachment of Donald Trump
permalink #5 of 76: Jef Poskanzer (jef) Wed 27 Jan 21 09:07
permalink #5 of 76: Jef Poskanzer (jef) Wed 27 Jan 21 09:07
A Senate conviction was only slightly less impossible this time than it was last time. Still worth having the trial, to get all the traitors to stand up and give their names. And then AG Garland charges Trump under 18 USC sec. 2383 with the same result in the end: barred from federal office.
inkwell.vue.511
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The Second Impeachment of Donald Trump
permalink #6 of 76: Ron Sires (rsires) Wed 27 Jan 21 10:22
permalink #6 of 76: Ron Sires (rsires) Wed 27 Jan 21 10:22
Here's the full text of the House Resolution, including the single article of impeachment: <https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/BILLS-117hres24ih/pdf/BILLS-117hres24ih.pd f> I'm interested in how Schumer will conduct the trial. In trying Trump's initial impeachment, McConnell famously disallowed the presentation of evidence or witnesses. Schumer will, I expect, allow both, which may expose malfeasance that even the Republicans will be unwilling to forgive. Though, even if the Republicans remain unwilling, (jef) is probably on the right track with his prediction in <5>.
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The Second Impeachment of Donald Trump
permalink #7 of 76: Jennifer Powell (jnfr) Wed 27 Jan 21 15:55
permalink #7 of 76: Jennifer Powell (jnfr) Wed 27 Jan 21 15:55
I wouldn't convict him of killing McConnell either.
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The Second Impeachment of Donald Trump
permalink #8 of 76: Gary Greenberg (gberg) Thu 28 Jan 21 03:32
permalink #8 of 76: Gary Greenberg (gberg) Thu 28 Jan 21 03:32
Unless the senators are willing and able to stand up to their constituents, I don't think it matters how much evidence is introduced at a trial. Their voters will find a way to negate them. As Jeff GOldblum said in The Big Chill, Rationalizations are better than sex. And when rationalizations don't even have to be rational, when all you need to explain anything away is a couple of sentences strung together that make something like sense, the orgy can get pretty darn nihilistic.
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The Second Impeachment of Donald Trump
permalink #9 of 76: Rob (rob) Thu 28 Jan 21 08:47
permalink #9 of 76: Rob (rob) Thu 28 Jan 21 08:47
I'd like to see this long behind us, the name of Trump all but forgotten.
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The Second Impeachment of Donald Trump
permalink #10 of 76: Elaine Sweeney (sweeney) Thu 28 Jan 21 09:08
permalink #10 of 76: Elaine Sweeney (sweeney) Thu 28 Jan 21 09:08
What Gary says about the constituents. >which may expose malfeasance that even the Republicans >will be unwilling to forgive I mean, Trump incited a mob to attack the Capitol with the sitting legislative itself in it. And if anyone doesn't believe he meant to do that, or doesn't believe he wasn't OK with the mob doing it, there is his utter inaction afterwards as he watched the riot on TV. All that is pretty much on the table right now, and if the Senators can ignore that - I mean, they were the ones in peril at the time - it seems that they could ignore anything. And like Rob, I would love to never hear of Trump again, but we have to pull his fangs first. What is that meme floating around FB nowadays? A unpunished attempt is just a training exercise?
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The Second Impeachment of Donald Trump
permalink #11 of 76: Angie Coiro (coiro) Thu 28 Jan 21 10:27
permalink #11 of 76: Angie Coiro (coiro) Thu 28 Jan 21 10:27
Oh, hadn't heard that one. Bang on. All the Dems and the justice-inclined public can hope for is to put their objections on the record for posterity. It will result in no charges, no trial, no consequences. It still matters. I see a lot more gumption in the younger, up-and-coming Dem legislators, and this is at least a building block for future attempts at demanding just behavior from the Repubs. I see the same thing in younger voters. This will signal to some of them that it's not worth getting worked up, the system is broken and dishonesty wins. But it's pissing more of them off, and they're demanding better. So any payoff for the impeachment comes down the line, not immediately.
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The Second Impeachment of Donald Trump
permalink #12 of 76: Elaine Sweeney (sweeney) Thu 28 Jan 21 10:55
permalink #12 of 76: Elaine Sweeney (sweeney) Thu 28 Jan 21 10:55
It's odd though because right now Trump is at one of his weakest points. His media connections are down; he's lost the White House briefing room and press pool; whatever Cipollone told Trump that shook him up after January 6th is still ringing in his ears. He doesn't have the staff support anymore that he had in the White House. If there was any point when it was optimal to stand up to him and by proxy his supporters, it's now.
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The Second Impeachment of Donald Trump
permalink #13 of 76: Ron Sires (rsires) Thu 28 Jan 21 11:38
permalink #13 of 76: Ron Sires (rsires) Thu 28 Jan 21 11:38
<scribbled by rsires Thu 28 Jan 21 17:03>
inkwell.vue.511
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The Second Impeachment of Donald Trump
permalink #14 of 76: Ron Sires (rsires) Thu 28 Jan 21 11:41
permalink #14 of 76: Ron Sires (rsires) Thu 28 Jan 21 11:41
This op-ed by a former CIA anti-insurgency specialist on how the US can recover is encouraging, except that the recommendations assume that Trump will be convicted by the Senate. Without that, the whole analysis falls apart. So, can he be convicted? And, if not, what can be done to stop the fascist insurgents? How to Defeat Americas Homegrown Insurgency <https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/27/opinion/how-to-defeat-americas-homegrown- insurgency.html>
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The Second Impeachment of Donald Trump
permalink #15 of 76: Jennifer Powell (jnfr) Thu 28 Jan 21 17:11
permalink #15 of 76: Jennifer Powell (jnfr) Thu 28 Jan 21 17:11
Trump is just a vessel, a symptom in some ways. He definitely channels what the Party is sending, but it's the stream of shit that matters over the long run.
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The Second Impeachment of Donald Trump
permalink #16 of 76: Evelyn Pine (evy) Thu 28 Jan 21 20:27
permalink #16 of 76: Evelyn Pine (evy) Thu 28 Jan 21 20:27
As usual <Sweeney> speaks for me.
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The Second Impeachment of Donald Trump
permalink #17 of 76: FF (fsquared) Thu 28 Jan 21 20:44
permalink #17 of 76: FF (fsquared) Thu 28 Jan 21 20:44
I'm with jnfr. He's a symptom. But it's important to treat the symptom.
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The Second Impeachment of Donald Trump
permalink #18 of 76: shannon (vsclyne) Thu 28 Jan 21 21:52
permalink #18 of 76: shannon (vsclyne) Thu 28 Jan 21 21:52
It is unlikely that Trump will be convicted, yet it is important that the trial take place. Following the trial, the question is whether Trump or even trumpism without Trump himself will remain consequential. I think it will not. Trump himself is without his Twitter and without title or staff. He will be increasingly beset by massive financial pressures, law suits, investigations, and likely state court criminal indictments. His followers are increasingly associated with extremist groups that are identified by the federal government as domestic terrorists. Arrests, indictments, trials, and convictions will accumulate for participants in the January 6 insurgency. All the while, the Biden administration will be plodding along restoring governmental normalcy and competence in both domestic and foreign affairs. I foresee increasing normalcy and a retreat of the extreme right to frustrated irrelevancy. When the Republican Party inevitably fragments into far right and principled conservative, this current trumpist outburst will have quieted. Sausage making in Washington DC, however, will remain ugly.
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The Second Impeachment of Donald Trump
permalink #19 of 76: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Fri 29 Jan 21 06:50
permalink #19 of 76: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Fri 29 Jan 21 06:50
"Bracing for the prospect of a likely acquittal, Senate Democrats are eyeing a rapid-fire impeachment trial for former president Donald Trump as short as one week while also contemplating alternatives such as censure that could attract more support from Republicans." <https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/democrats-consider-impeachment-alterna tives-censure/2021/01/27/fdfd9b6c-60bd-11eb-afbe-9a11a127d146_story.html> However I believe they have to impeach in order to pass legislation to prevent Trump from taking office again.
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The Second Impeachment of Donald Trump
permalink #20 of 76: Angie Coiro (coiro) Fri 29 Jan 21 10:55
permalink #20 of 76: Angie Coiro (coiro) Fri 29 Jan 21 10:55
I worry that the "let's just put this behind us" contingent grows with every new development. It's the short-sighted view but a very tempting one. I mean, sure, you've had a cancer diagnosis, but it's just a few cells, and maybe it won't grow anyway, and there's so much more on your plate right now ...
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The Second Impeachment of Donald Trump
permalink #21 of 76: Ron Sires (rsires) Fri 29 Jan 21 11:10
permalink #21 of 76: Ron Sires (rsires) Fri 29 Jan 21 11:10
> However I believe they have to impeach in order to pass legislation to prevent Trump from taking office again. I think that's an open question. Section 3 of the 14th Amendment seems to indicate that a simple majority of Congress (or maybe even a judicial ruling) would need to find that Trump had "engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the [US Constitution], or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof." <https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv>
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The Second Impeachment of Donald Trump
permalink #22 of 76: Dave (davidwag) Fri 29 Jan 21 13:26
permalink #22 of 76: Dave (davidwag) Fri 29 Jan 21 13:26
During the timespan of Nixon's impeachment, once the public finally became aware of information showing his misconduct, the tide turned and broke his Republican support. During Trump's second impeachment trial, there may not be enough time for this Century's "smoking gun" to be revealed and turn the tide one more time.
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The Second Impeachment of Donald Trump
permalink #23 of 76: Ari Davidow (ari) Fri 29 Jan 21 13:42
permalink #23 of 76: Ari Davidow (ari) Fri 29 Jan 21 13:42
People have much more investment in their tribes now than they did 50 years ago, too.
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The Second Impeachment of Donald Trump
permalink #24 of 76: Ron Sires (rsires) Fri 29 Jan 21 13:54
permalink #24 of 76: Ron Sires (rsires) Fri 29 Jan 21 13:54
Also, Nixon was never impeached. He had enough respect for the country and the office to resign before the House could act.
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The Second Impeachment of Donald Trump
permalink #25 of 76: those Andropovian bongs (rik) Fri 29 Jan 21 14:11
permalink #25 of 76: those Andropovian bongs (rik) Fri 29 Jan 21 14:11
I think you are giving the traitor credit for more decency than he actually displayed. He resigned to keep his pension and perks. He knew he was guilty and would would be convicted if he stood trial. He also knew something that the rest of us didn't. He'd had the Paris Peace talks killed so that he could have the war to run on as an election issue. An move that resulted in the deaths of 35-40 thousand American troops. Nixon was in it for Nixon, and didn't really care how much damage he was doing to the country. He spent the rest of his life sitting on that secret, knowing that if anyone found out, his life would be over. And the only reason we know now was the posthumous release of Bob Haldeman's notes.
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