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Ben Tarnoff: Internet for the People
permalink #26 of 62: Peter Richardson (richardsonpete) Fri 5 Aug 22 04:58
permalink #26 of 62: Peter Richardson (richardsonpete) Fri 5 Aug 22 04:58
Also, some of the hippiest visionaries were calling for the government to stay out of cyberspace. (Which is rich, considering its origins.) Barlow's "A Declaration of the Independence of Cyberspace" appeared in 1996. Was it the same day the Telecommunications Act went into effect?
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permalink #27 of 62: Inkwell Co-host (jonl) Fri 5 Aug 22 06:20
permalink #27 of 62: Inkwell Co-host (jonl) Fri 5 Aug 22 06:20
Yes, the Telecommunications Act was signed into law on February 8, the same day Barlow published his Declaration. In 2004 Barlow wrote "the main thing I was declaring was that cyberspace is naturally immune to sovereignty and always would be. I believed that was true then, and I believe it's true now."
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permalink #28 of 62: Ari Davidow (ari) Fri 5 Aug 22 06:47
permalink #28 of 62: Ari Davidow (ari) Fri 5 Aug 22 06:47
And what that really meant was that cyberspace would be ruled by tech giants, and their profit lines, with government only there to reinforce the right of the tech giants to extract. We lose track, I think, of the reality that none of us exist in a vacuum. Nothing is immune to sovereignty - the question is whether we hold sovereignty accountable or responsible. And, of course, the bulk of Ben's book isn't just about the pipes, it is about that tech giant grab for our personal data, and the unexpected consequences to our ability to work together - the antithesis of the internet as we dreamed it decades ago.
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Ben Tarnoff: Internet for the People
permalink #29 of 62: Inkwell Co-host (jonl) Fri 5 Aug 22 08:41
permalink #29 of 62: Inkwell Co-host (jonl) Fri 5 Aug 22 08:41
> what that really meant That's not what John was thinking, i.e. not what *he* meant. But that does seem to be how it's played out.
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Ben Tarnoff: Internet for the People
permalink #30 of 62: Ari Davidow (ari) Fri 5 Aug 22 09:31
permalink #30 of 62: Ari Davidow (ari) Fri 5 Aug 22 09:31
I'm not impugning Barlow's idealism, nor our collective ignorance. I think that point cuts to the heart of why this book resonates so strongly for me - it makes manifest not only how things have really turned out, but also makes manifest that we have choices. It's not a prescription for "what to do," but rather a change from black and white to color - the ability to see what is - now that we've cottoned on to the fact that the wizard isn't quite so wizardly, or different from other power grabs.
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Ben Tarnoff: Internet for the People
permalink #31 of 62: Craig Maudlin (clm) Fri 5 Aug 22 09:56
permalink #31 of 62: Craig Maudlin (clm) Fri 5 Aug 22 09:56
> I'm not impugning Barlow's idealism, nor our collective ignorance. It seems to me that the idealism is laudable and our task is to climb out of the pitfalls of our collective ignorance. Never easy.
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Ben Tarnoff: Internet for the People
permalink #32 of 62: Craig Maudlin (clm) Fri 5 Aug 22 10:49
permalink #32 of 62: Craig Maudlin (clm) Fri 5 Aug 22 10:49
Here are a couple of pertinent paragraphs from the book: > Online malls are inequality machines in part because they offer > new opportunities to political forces committed to promoting > inequality. These are the forces of the Right, which, as the > political scientist Corey Robin argues, has always been devoted > to the defense of hierarchy. Yet this defense is a surprisingly > radical one. Since modern conservatism first took shape in the > aftermath of the French Revolution, it has waged insurgencies > from above to combat insurgencies from below. The point is not > the preservation of the ancien régime but its reconstitution on > a reinvigorated basis, what Robin calls the "new old regime." > > Seeing conservatives as radicals helps explain a theme found > throughout their history: their remarkable creativity with > the media technologies of their time. In every era, they are > "innovation opportunists," to borrow a term from the sociologist > Jessie Daniels. Direct mailing campaigns were central to their > success in the 1970s, talk radio in the 1980s and 1990s. In our era, > they have turned their talents to the internet, particularly social > media. Through a well-organized offensive, right-wing activists have > made social media into an accelerator for their politics. Indeed, > the resurgence of the far Right, both in the US and around the > world, is hard to imagine without this development. It was David > Duke, former Ku Klux Klan grand wizard, and not John Perry Barlow, > former Grateful Dead lyricist, who saw the future of the internet > most clearly. - pp 139-140
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permalink #33 of 62: Ari Davidow (ari) Sat 6 Aug 22 07:34
permalink #33 of 62: Ari Davidow (ari) Sat 6 Aug 22 07:34
Ben, The first third of this book is devoted to "the pipes" - the infrastructure that underlies everything else. Before we go on to the layers of the stack that lie on top of the pipes (sheesh - we're almost halfway through this discussion and we have yet to tackle the big stuff!), I want to pose some final questions about infrastructure, privatization, and deprivatization. In your discussion of the Detroit Community Technology Project, for instance, you note that it isn't just the difference between a community organization ensuring affordable access to decent service (or even free, in some cases - although that raises additional issues to discuss), but rather than, like the post office, these systems can serve as centers for community organizing. They can provide easy access to bus schedules, for instance, forums to discuss local issues and problems, easy access to government and other agencies. It occurs to me that in this sense, community-controlled internet services, for all of the problems that come with them, also provide an answer to the news deserts that increasingly occupy most of America. The same cooperative that provides access to the internet and provides affordances to municipal government and important everyday information and services can also provide a home to the ultra-local journalism that no longer exists in most small towns. This takes me back to the role the post office once played as a center not just of mail - communication with the outside world, as it were, but a place where people often gathered to discuss and gossip. Does this make sense? Neo-liberal economics pretended that the only thing that matters is economic efficiency. Somehow, large corporations making more money was supposed to make everyone richer. Instead, we hollowed out the middle class and re-energized income (and wealth) inequality. Organizers talks about three general roles: business, government, and a third role played by community leaders such as pastors or the heads of local rotary groups. It occurs to me that the Detroit model of internet access and the community organizing that comes with it provide a natural "third space" for that latter role. Of course, that isn't a panacea. Those old newspapers quite handily represented the local power structure, not the needs of the community, per se. But, if I understand the first section of your book, the point _isn't_ that small internet cooperatives are a panacea, but that they provide the opportunity to experiment and explore and to rediscover that there are a plethora of models that might work. Sorry, I didn't mean to make this a long-winded question, but does this make sense? If so, are we making any progress since you wrote your book? Did any of the local-centric funding survive the various "build back better" bills? To what should we be paying attention right now? [And then let's spend time considering the bulk of the book, which is the stuff built on top of the bottom of the stack]
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Ben Tarnoff: Internet for the People
permalink #34 of 62: Jennifer Powell (jnfr) Mon 8 Aug 22 11:24
permalink #34 of 62: Jennifer Powell (jnfr) Mon 8 Aug 22 11:24
Boy, am I grieving for Inouye's public lane that never was allowed to pass.
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permalink #35 of 62: Kevin Driscoll (driscoll) Mon 8 Aug 22 12:16
permalink #35 of 62: Kevin Driscoll (driscoll) Mon 8 Aug 22 12:16
Thanks for this excellent book, Ben. I tore through it. Following on <ari>'s question about how we tackle these problems in the present, I am especially curious about the process of deprivatization. Are there deprivatization efforts underway in other social/economic domains that might provide some momentum? Should we imagine a broader movement toward deprivatization that includes telecom alongside healthcare, transportation, education, etc.?
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permalink #36 of 62: Ben Tarnoff (btarnoff) Mon 8 Aug 22 17:12
permalink #36 of 62: Ben Tarnoff (btarnoff) Mon 8 Aug 22 17:12
Ari, in response to 33: Yes, I think building up the capacity of local noncommercial journalism through investment in public media is an integral part of building a better internet. Again, I would refer to Victor Pickards excellent work on the subject. An internet organized around the principle of profit maximization tends to privilege sensationalistic content of the kind that often favors the Right part of a long tradition of media hypercommercialization creating opportunities for reactionary propagandists. And the internets own role in the decimation of local newspapers has created even greater space for the Right to operate donor-subsidized right-wing sites, or right-wing social media operations, have stepped in to fill the void. Not all of the investments we need to make in public media have to be local, of course Im not a localist. Small is not always beautiful there are plenty of problems with the local scale. The local is a good starting point, not least because its often a more feasible, and cheaper, level at which to intervene. But we need action at the national level. And Im afraid I dont see much action toward that. There is anxiety in certain liberal circles about disinformation a framing that I find counterproductive for a number of reasons - but not much political will or social movement momentum around making the public media investments necessary to improve our informational environments, online and off.
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permalink #37 of 62: Ben Tarnoff (btarnoff) Mon 8 Aug 22 17:38
permalink #37 of 62: Ben Tarnoff (btarnoff) Mon 8 Aug 22 17:38
Thanks Kevin (35). Im so glad you liked the book. Deprivatization is the term I use in the book, because it draws a nice contrast with privatization, and the book is mostly a history of how the internet was privatized. But another term thats quite a close cousin is decommodification. For anyone reading who may be unfamiliar with the term, decommodification is when something that was once bought and sold on the market as a commodity is provisioned as a matter of right. So instead of going out and buying health insurance, the government insures you, as in a single-payer system. The Danish political theorist Gotta Esping-Andersen has an influential book called The Three Worlds of Welfare Capitalism that uses the concept of decommodification to analyze the kind of social welfare regimes created by social-democratic political parties think Sweden in the 1970s. So, yes, I certainly think we do see social-movement momentum around certain decommodifying demands. Medicare for All, social housing, and free public transit are all good examples. And I think the project of deprivatizing the internet fits well within that broader context. There is of course always the question of what ones horizon is: there will be those who support the decommodification of certain goods and services but not others a mixed economy, lets say and those who see decommodification as a process that may help bring us, however nonlinearly, toward the abolition of capitalism and the creation of a socialist society. Im in the latter camp. But politics is coalitional, and I think we've seen that you can put together some fairly broad coalitions to pursue decommodification campaigns of various kinds.
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Ben Tarnoff: Internet for the People
permalink #38 of 62: Jennifer Powell (jnfr) Mon 8 Aug 22 21:35
permalink #38 of 62: Jennifer Powell (jnfr) Mon 8 Aug 22 21:35
But do you see any of this happening in the current political climate? I guess from my own experience with decentralized, community-oriented organizations, it may work best to nibble around the edges given the mess we're in politically.
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Ben Tarnoff: Internet for the People
permalink #39 of 62: Tiffany Lee Brown (T) (magdalen) Mon 8 Aug 22 21:44
permalink #39 of 62: Tiffany Lee Brown (T) (magdalen) Mon 8 Aug 22 21:44
nibbling around the edges is such a good way of putting it...
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permalink #40 of 62: Ben Tarnoff (btarnoff) Tue 9 Aug 22 16:30
permalink #40 of 62: Ben Tarnoff (btarnoff) Tue 9 Aug 22 16:30
Jennifer, in response to 38: By this, do you mean progress toward deprivatizing the internet, or momentum around decommodifying demands of the kind I described in my response to Kevin (37)? When it comes to deprivatizing the internet, I think we do see modest progress. I consider the hundreds of community networks that is, publicly owned and cooperatively owned broadband networks, which I describe at further length up-thread at 10 as part of the broader project of deprivatizing the pipes. Moving up the stack, there are valuable experiments being conducted within the decentralized web and platform cooperativism communities, such as cooperatively governed social media sites and worker-owned app-based services, that I would also place under the heading of deprivatization. But deprivatization is my own coinage there arent any organizers out there using the term. Still, my argument is that deprivatization is the implicit unifying theme of these various pursuits, and my hope is that this theme can become explicit as people come to understand the history of the internets privatization, and the role that privatization has played in the problems they are trying to mitigate. As for momentum around decommodifying demands more broadly, I think we see a fair amount. Social housing initiatives are underway in San Francisco and Seattle. Free public transit, either on some or all routes, has been implemented in several cities; it was a major plank of Michelle Wus successful mayoral campaign in Boston, to take one example. Its not a particularly good time for the Left, of course, but there are some encouraging things happening, and I dont expect well have to wait too long for the next social explosion. The kindling remains very dry!
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Ben Tarnoff: Internet for the People
permalink #41 of 62: Jennifer Powell (jnfr) Tue 9 Aug 22 23:58
permalink #41 of 62: Jennifer Powell (jnfr) Tue 9 Aug 22 23:58
I think you've caught both meanings really well. As someone who spent my life as an activist, trying very hard to get cooperative communities functioning on the ground, the failures I've run into have been when we've tried to bridge from small groups to something more regional or far-flung. That was before the internet though, and I'm always looking to find out whether closing the communications gap could change that. I'd be very interested in any examples you could point to of community networks. It seems to me that the corporate pushback on these has been intense. And I would expect the same for any community effort that makes real progress.
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permalink #42 of 62: Inkwell Co-host (jonl) Wed 10 Aug 22 07:28
permalink #42 of 62: Inkwell Co-host (jonl) Wed 10 Aug 22 07:28
Some years ago I was involved in the community networking movement, in a lot of meetings with people like the late Steve Cisler, the late Gene Crick, Richard Civille, the late Dave Hughes, etc. Noting that three of those four are gone now, I'd like to hear more about what's happening with community networking as a movement. I drifted away from that work many years ago, drawn to other work and projects, and I'm wondering if a 'movement' still exists vs many smaller individual projects. If so, what people and organizations are still doing that kind of advocacy?
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Ben Tarnoff: Internet for the People
permalink #43 of 62: Kevin Driscoll (driscoll) Wed 10 Aug 22 09:31
permalink #43 of 62: Kevin Driscoll (driscoll) Wed 10 Aug 22 09:31
Thanks for the reference, Ben. The link between deprivatization and decommodification is super helpful. I'm curious to see if/how cooperatives will benefit from the NTIA's new "Internet for All" program. The "middle mile" infrastructure program specifically mentions cooperatives and nonprofits as potential funding recipients: https://www.internetforall.gov/program/enabling-middle-mile-broadband-infrastr ucture-program
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permalink #44 of 62: Ben Tarnoff (btarnoff) Thu 11 Aug 22 12:59
permalink #44 of 62: Ben Tarnoff (btarnoff) Thu 11 Aug 22 12:59
Jennifer, in response to 41: Probably the best known community network in the United States is the Gig, which is owned by the city of Chattanooga. Here's some more information: https://logicmag.io/justice/the-new-sewer-socialists/. Jon, in response to 42: I'm afraid I don't know much about the community networking movement. I suspect Kevin Driscoll would have more to say about that. Kevin, in response to 43: I actually did an interview with Protocol about the Internet for All initiative, which you can find at https://www.protocol.com/policy/internet-for-all-ben-tarnoff. Briefly, the initiative takes an "all-of-the-above" approach that is heavily weighted toward the big telecoms. In particular, there are specific implementation details that will make it difficult for community networks to benefit. As an alternative model, I point to Bernie Sanders's "High-Speed Internet for All" plan that he put forward during the 2020 Democratic primary, which would have provided more than $100 billion in grants and technical assistance to help fund publicly owned and cooperatively owned networks.
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permalink #45 of 62: Ari Davidow (ari) Fri 12 Aug 22 12:11
permalink #45 of 62: Ari Davidow (ari) Fri 12 Aug 22 12:11
Ben, thank you for those responses. I've been slow to get to the bigger half of the book, the stuff higher on the stack. You start discussing the initial dot.com boom and note (I've concatenated bits from a few pages here - hope I have captured the larger meaning): ""The dot-com entrepreneurs faced a larger challenge: they had to find a way to monetize activity rather than access.... eBay enlisted its users in its own creation. The site didn't just offer a space for their activities--it was constituted by them... [I[n the near term, ... [the internet's] real value was social. The internet survived and grew, because it gave people a way to communicate.... Here, social relationships have merged so completely with market relationships as to become indistinguishable. The internet is the instrument of this union; it brings people together, but under the sign of capital." We're talking about an initial process where there is, say, formal subsumption of social activity - moving it, as it then existed - into capital-owned processes, and then in not too much time, turning those relationships into "real" subsumption - now the processes themselves are tuned to extract value from our very posts. Have I got the description of what is happening up the stack correct? And if so, what happened here? What happened to that glorious "Virtual Community" about which <hlr> and so many others rhapsodized?
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permalink #46 of 62: Benjamin Tarnoff (btarnoff) Sun 14 Aug 22 07:51
permalink #46 of 62: Benjamin Tarnoff (btarnoff) Sun 14 Aug 22 07:51
Ari: As I argue in the book, the real value of the internet has always been social. The internet protocol was first created in the mid-1970s in the hopes that it would facilitate "resource sharing" -- that is, that it would enable a computer to access a program running on another computer, more or less the utility model of computing that today has been fulfilled by the modern cloud. But what the internet would actually be used for as it developed was primarily email. It would be a social medium, in other words, and this quality enabled successive generations of internet users to develop online communities of various kinds. What happens in the latter half of the 1990s, and really in the 2000s, is that the social quality of the internet is applied to the task of building very profitable businesses on the web. The community is synthesized with the market, thus "pushing privatization up the stack" and thereby finding a way to unlock the profit potential of the internet. In my book, I argue that AuctionWeb (the first iteration of eBay) was the first internet company to create a highly successful community-market. And, in doing so, AuctionWeb prefigured the rise of the so-called platforms in the 2000s and 2010s. To my mind, this isn't a moral story. I wouldn't argue that the forces of commercialization "corrupted" the internet by instrumentalizing its fundamentally social nature toward capitalist ends. Figures like Omidyar, creator of AuctionWeb (later eBay), truly believed that they were creating an online community. And real communities did and continue to populate the privatized internet, albeit within certain constraints. But, ultimately, for privatization to ascend from the lower floors of the internet -- the pipes -- to the higher floors -- the application layer, where the internet is actually experienced -- it had to make use of the internet's sociality as a kind of propulsion. And, in doing so, it remade the internet, and remade how we connect to one another through the internet.
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permalink #47 of 62: Ari Davidow (ari) Mon 15 Aug 22 07:44
permalink #47 of 62: Ari Davidow (ari) Mon 15 Aug 22 07:44
I hear you, but I have to think that in some weird ways, what has actually happened is that what we're talking about is sort of what happens when "community" is productized. Notwithstanding Omidyar's good intentions, and for that matter, the good intentions of many of us who began exploring online community back in the day, there is something toxic when that basic human desire to connect is turned cancerous by processes designed to keep us clicking. It feels as though the real food of online community has been replaced by fast food. At the same time, I have been seeing research recently that emphasizes that Facebook and Twitter and Tiktok may be toxic, but they aren't nearly as influential, overall, as traditional media such as Fox. So, as we come to the end of this discussion, where are we now?
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Ben Tarnoff: Internet for the People
permalink #48 of 62: Craig Maudlin (clm) Mon 15 Aug 22 11:00
permalink #48 of 62: Craig Maudlin (clm) Mon 15 Aug 22 11:00
> what we're talking about is sort of what happens when "community" > is productized. Seems true. But, perhaps, this is just one of the many ways we might characterize what happens to groups of individuals as they interact. There are natural processes by which various forms of 'alignment' arise. And some individuals tend to become more adept at leading and shaping group alignment and stimulating group action. Humans have so much history and experience with collaborative groups that we've learned that some of the principles that apply to groups of individuals can also be applied to *coalitions* of groups. And some individuals (and even groups) will naturally become better at leading and directing others. An architecture of power dynamics appears. Repeated application of such seemingly simple patterns has generated the rich complexity of today's social (and political) realities. And a part of that is the emergence of 'bad-actors' -- individuals and groups that can hide their ill-intent behind an attractive facade. As individuals, we repeatedly face the task of aligning ourselves with the good-actors and avoiding the bad. And experience has shown us how difficult this can be. The bad-actors have gotten very good at what they do. The extreme cases are sometimes described as involving 'cult-like' behavior, and terms like 'brain-washing' or 'mind-control' can sometimes seem appropriate. The danger, I think, is that by focusing on avoiding just the extremes, we may miss the subtle, "pre-cancerous" risks that can lead us into the truely dangerous territory.
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Ben Tarnoff: Internet for the People
permalink #49 of 62: Ari Davidow (ari) Mon 15 Aug 22 11:31
permalink #49 of 62: Ari Davidow (ari) Mon 15 Aug 22 11:31
Good points, Craig. I'm looking at my notes. Here are some of the things I wrote going through the last section (and I'll save the final set once people have had a chance to respond to these): - Google assumed that they would make money selling their search technology. But they did a lot of tracking user behavior to improve search, and then became profitable when they introduced "AdWords" in 2002 using that data to set up online auctions for ad space. In a blink, "Surveillance Capitalism" was invented. - Uber abstracts things further - using that data to provide incentives to put drivers where they are needed and to charge peak pricing - but also to keep drivers out of the benefits of the value that is being created - this is perhaps one illustration of why I use the word "cancerous." Being an Uber driver is a very hard way to make a living. Uber, the company loses millions each year, but its executives make a lot of money - not its drivers. In sum: Online malls, whatever their particular entanglements, are inequality machines. [T]hey reallocate the existing distribution of risk and reward. They push risks downward and spread them around. They pull rewards upward and focus them in fewer hands.
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permalink #50 of 62: Craig Maudlin (clm) Mon 15 Aug 22 13:06
permalink #50 of 62: Craig Maudlin (clm) Mon 15 Aug 22 13:06
> [T]hey reallocate the existing distribution of > risk and reward. They push risks downward and spread them around. > They pull rewards upward and focus them in fewer hands. Illustrates the challenge, perhaps. Following specific examples of bad-behavior on the part of online malls, this rhetorical structure naturally leads us to look askance at the very notion of reallocating "the existing distribution of risk and reward." But wait! Surely this is just short-hand speech for something else, right? Isn't much of human history about our struggles to overturn existing distributions of risk and reward that were seen to be unjust? I sometimes imagine that writing itself was invented to account for individual stores of grain contributed to centralized (and protected) granaries for the express purpose of minimizing the risk of famine and sharing the rewards of a plentiful harvest.
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