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Wagner James Au: Making a Metaverse that Matters
permalink #26 of 73: Inkwell Host (jonl) Wed 20 Sep 23 06:18
permalink #26 of 73: Inkwell Host (jonl) Wed 20 Sep 23 06:18
Has anybody researched how to overcome that nausea factor? Or do they just ignore it?
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Wagner James Au: Making a Metaverse that Matters
permalink #27 of 73: Craig Maudlin (clm) Wed 20 Sep 23 09:56
permalink #27 of 73: Craig Maudlin (clm) Wed 20 Sep 23 09:56
It may be largely a matter of motivation. Past experience as a flight instructor (in gliders, which can often involve lots of tight circling in thermal lift) show that many cases of motion sickness can disappear after a small number of flights. Of course, not everybody is willing to endure any sort of 'anti-nausea training.' But a key factor is prior knowledge that such physical reactions *can* be overcome with a bit of practice, using the right procedures. So serious research would be needed. In the case of flying, simply asking the student to watch the horizon while circling tightly will help. I have no idea what might help in the case of VR nausea.
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Wagner James Au: Making a Metaverse that Matters
permalink #28 of 73: Wagner James Au (wjamesau) Wed 20 Sep 23 10:40
permalink #28 of 73: Wagner James Au (wjamesau) Wed 20 Sep 23 10:40
Yeah, motivation is a big factor -- VR enthusiasts are overwhelmingly white male gamers who love extreme immersion and don't mind nausea as much, or may even think that's a positive part of the experience. ("Dude that flying sim felt so real I almost hurled!") In addition to a sex difference, there may be a racial component BTW -- researcher Nick Yee pointed me to evidence that Asians are more likely to get nauseous from extreme 3D/VR. Anyway, my main takeaway with all this is that VR headset should NOT be a central component of the Metaverse. (As opposed to one option among many -- for most of us, immersion through a PC, console, or smartphone app is just fine.)
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Wagner James Au: Making a Metaverse that Matters
permalink #29 of 73: Wagner James Au (wjamesau) Wed 20 Sep 23 10:48
permalink #29 of 73: Wagner James Au (wjamesau) Wed 20 Sep 23 10:48
> Has anybody researched how to overcome that nausea factor Yes definitely. Also, Microsoft is researching the nausea/sex factor. (No surprise, danah is a senior researcher at MS.) But mainly the approach is focused on improving graphics quality. I believe the nausea factor is a core reason why Apple's Vision Pro is presented as an augmented reality experience, where virtual objects are displayed as being part of the user's real world context. (As opposed to putting the user in a completely virtual environment.) Veteran VR developer Avi Bar-Zeev, who I interview in the book, strongly agrees that danah's points about sex and VR nausea need more research -- and he was a senior designer for the Vision Pro.
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Wagner James Au: Making a Metaverse that Matters
permalink #30 of 73: Inkwell Host (jonl) Wed 20 Sep 23 10:52
permalink #30 of 73: Inkwell Host (jonl) Wed 20 Sep 23 10:52
(<29> slipped in while I was posting this...) Some of the definitions of VR include 3D as an inherent aspect of the experience - so are we saying we should make a distinction between VR and the Metaverse? Can an experience be immersive without being fully three dimensional?
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Wagner James Au: Making a Metaverse that Matters
permalink #31 of 73: Wagner James Au (wjamesau) Wed 20 Sep 23 11:04
permalink #31 of 73: Wagner James Au (wjamesau) Wed 20 Sep 23 11:04
> we should make a distinction between VR and the Metaverse? Yes, absolutely. VR is only *one* way of attaining immersion in a virtual world. Any device that displays 3D graphics is enough for creating a "you are there" sense of immersion. Neal Stephenson himself frequently says this -- the computer game Doom came out a year after "Snow Crash", and playing it, he realized 3D graphics on a PC was enough for the immersion he described in the novel.
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Wagner James Au: Making a Metaverse that Matters
permalink #32 of 73: Craig Maudlin (clm) Wed 20 Sep 23 11:09
permalink #32 of 73: Craig Maudlin (clm) Wed 20 Sep 23 11:09
> I believe the nausea factor is a core reason why Apple's Vision Pro > is presented as an augmented reality experience... Which may suggest a training scenario: Start with AR and gradually transition to full VR at whatever pace works for a given user.
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Wagner James Au: Making a Metaverse that Matters
permalink #33 of 73: Wagner James Au (wjamesau) Wed 20 Sep 23 14:14
permalink #33 of 73: Wagner James Au (wjamesau) Wed 20 Sep 23 14:14
Yeah that's what I think Apple is doing. Also calling it the Vision PRO and pricing it at $3500. That way they can go after high-end developers and content creators who already work with multiple screens, and slowly build off that niche.
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Wagner James Au: Making a Metaverse that Matters
permalink #34 of 73: Inkwell Host (jonl) Thu 21 Sep 23 06:53
permalink #34 of 73: Inkwell Host (jonl) Thu 21 Sep 23 06:53
Do you think there's sufficient market for a $3500 headset that it'll be a success? I suppose Apple's done market research. Apple says the device is meant to "introduce people to spatial computing," but I can't imagine that the buyers will be looking for an introduction. I suspect they'd be experienced and have a pretty solid use case for the device. Note that they're not pitching the Vision Pro as a VR headset. They're calling it a "spatial computer." Incidentally, for some we might need a clarification of references to 3D. When you say "any device that displays 3D graphics," you're referring to graphics that appear to have depth but are actually 2 dimensional, correct? As you have with Second Life, which appears on 2-dimensional displays and requires no special equipment to experience, but has a sense of depth and movement in space.
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Wagner James Au: Making a Metaverse that Matters
permalink #35 of 73: Craig Maudlin (clm) Thu 21 Sep 23 09:10
permalink #35 of 73: Craig Maudlin (clm) Thu 21 Sep 23 09:10
> They're calling it a "spatial computer." Which is what one does to appeal to those who already know they have problems that spatial computing can address.
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Wagner James Au: Making a Metaverse that Matters
permalink #36 of 73: Wagner James Au (wjamesau) Thu 21 Sep 23 10:28
permalink #36 of 73: Wagner James Au (wjamesau) Thu 21 Sep 23 10:28
> graphics that appear to have depth but are actually 2D 3D graphics on a 2D screen, yes -- so on a smartphone/tablet, videogame console, or PC. Basically any experience where you can move through and look around in a 3D scene in real time. > Do you think there's sufficient market for a $3500 headset that it'll be a success? At least a niche basis, yes. Many professional developers and content creators (programmers, video editors, artists, etc.) already work on multiple screens at the same time because it's more efficient. For instance, they'll edit code on one screen, and then review the results on another screen. So I think the Vision Pro would appeal to people like that, since it puts multiple screens into one device. And which doesn't require them to work from a desk. Folks like that tend to use a Mac Pro now -- and that thing costs $6500!
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Wagner James Au: Making a Metaverse that Matters
permalink #37 of 73: Inkwell Host (jonl) Thu 21 Sep 23 10:40
permalink #37 of 73: Inkwell Host (jonl) Thu 21 Sep 23 10:40
Why do some advocates, like Palmer Luckey, argue that there's a moral imperative to create the metaverse?
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Wagner James Au: Making a Metaverse that Matters
permalink #38 of 73: Wagner James Au (wjamesau) Thu 21 Sep 23 11:54
permalink #38 of 73: Wagner James Au (wjamesau) Thu 21 Sep 23 11:54
That's another shocking part of the book! Luckey and a lot of people in tech want to create the Metaverse so poor people across the world can enjoy *virtual* versions of a happy, comfortable life. And, well, I don't agree! A Metaverse worth fighting for should actually benefit people in real life.
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Wagner James Au: Making a Metaverse that Matters
permalink #39 of 73: Inkwell Host (jonl) Thu 21 Sep 23 11:59
permalink #39 of 73: Inkwell Host (jonl) Thu 21 Sep 23 11:59
What are some of the ways a (or the) Metaverse can be beneficial IRL?
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Wagner James Au: Making a Metaverse that Matters
permalink #40 of 73: Wagner James Au (wjamesau) Thu 21 Sep 23 13:18
permalink #40 of 73: Wagner James Au (wjamesau) Thu 21 Sep 23 13:18
For starters: By fostering meaningful and diverse social connections across demographics and around the world. This is one of the only platform categories where it's very typical for people in different countries and from very disparate age groups/backgrounds to become fast friends/colleagues. And because a metaverse platform by definition enables people to monetize virtual content they create within it, to earn a decent supplementary or full-time income. Both things are already happening, the goal is to make the Metaverse even more diverse and make income earning more equitable, with lower barriers to entry.
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Wagner James Au: Making a Metaverse that Matters
permalink #41 of 73: Inkwell Host (jonl) Thu 21 Sep 23 15:46
permalink #41 of 73: Inkwell Host (jonl) Thu 21 Sep 23 15:46
There's conversation about "the Metaverse," but what I think I'm seeing is several disconnected platforms, like Second Life, Meta, Fortnite, and Roblox - I think those are the main ones you mention in the book. And then there's Lamina1, described as "a Layer1 blockchain optimized for the Open Metaverse" - I wonder what that refers to, the "Open Metaverse"? Is there any serious thinking about networking the various metaverse platforms, having them internetworking in some way? Is that what Lamina1 is for?
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Wagner James Au: Making a Metaverse that Matters
permalink #42 of 73: Wagner James Au (wjamesau) Thu 21 Sep 23 20:35
permalink #42 of 73: Wagner James Au (wjamesau) Thu 21 Sep 23 20:35
> serious thinking about networking the various metaverse platforms, having them internetworking in some way Yes, there's a lot of industry-wide effort to try and agree on protocol for an interoperable Open Metaverse. Neal thinks that will be achieved by integrating various virtual worlds with his Lamina1 blockchain layer. But there are other approaches. Which is part of the problem. I spend a lot of time writing about how this is a misguided approach to interoperability, since it's applying a web model to very disparate virtual worlds. It's more feasible just to make user log-ins and their friend networks interoperable. Community is mainly what matters!
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Wagner James Au: Making a Metaverse that Matters
permalink #43 of 73: Inkwell Host (jonl) Fri 22 Sep 23 06:29
permalink #43 of 73: Inkwell Host (jonl) Fri 22 Sep 23 06:29
Cory Doctorow advocates "adversarial interoperability," explained here: <https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/10/adversarial-interoperability> It's where you "create a new product or service that plugs into the existing ones without the permission of the companies that make them." Is this happening with any of the Metaverse platforms? I suppose what you suggest (re logins and friend networks) could be achieved that way.
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Wagner James Au: Making a Metaverse that Matters
permalink #44 of 73: J Matisse Enzer (matisse) Fri 22 Sep 23 08:23
permalink #44 of 73: J Matisse Enzer (matisse) Fri 22 Sep 23 08:23
Are there existing communities/groups of people that are taking advantage of these forms of communication?
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Wagner James Au: Making a Metaverse that Matters
permalink #45 of 73: Wagner James Au (wjamesau) Fri 22 Sep 23 14:37
permalink #45 of 73: Wagner James Au (wjamesau) Fri 22 Sep 23 14:37
Discord has basically become the backchannel for the Metaverse -- it's where virtual communities across many multiple platforms meet and communicate with each other outside the virtual world. (Though not adversarial in Cory's sense.) My guess is Discord accounts will become the de facto standard for managing user identity and communities across platforms.
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Wagner James Au: Making a Metaverse that Matters
permalink #46 of 73: J Matisse Enzer (matisse) Sat 23 Sep 23 08:50
permalink #46 of 73: J Matisse Enzer (matisse) Sat 23 Sep 23 08:50
What forms of collaboration are happening better or uniquely in metaverse experiences?
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Wagner James Au: Making a Metaverse that Matters
permalink #47 of 73: Gail Williams (gail) Sun 24 Sep 23 13:19
permalink #47 of 73: Gail Williams (gail) Sun 24 Sep 23 13:19
Cool question. Adding on, what are the current concerns and safeguards about control and ownership of platforms by corporations or possibly by governments?
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Wagner James Au: Making a Metaverse that Matters
permalink #48 of 73: Wagner James Au (wjamesau) Sun 24 Sep 23 22:06
permalink #48 of 73: Wagner James Au (wjamesau) Sun 24 Sep 23 22:06
> better or uniquely in metaverse experiences As an example of "better": Supportive trans and military veteran communities are quite common in metaverse platforms, because the ability to meet anonymously through customizable avatars enables a chance to express themselves and communicate in ways that would be difficult or often physically dangerous IRL. As an example of "uniquely": Highly diverse, international communities/collaborative groups that rarely exist elsewhere, certainly not on that scale. It's very common to have friends / colleagues in metaverse platforms from around the world, in very different age groups/economic backgrounds/races/etc. And that's also very unique to how we engage on the Internet, where it's mainly through our social networks that are mostly IRL friends / family.
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Wagner James Au: Making a Metaverse that Matters
permalink #49 of 73: J Matisse Enzer (matisse) Mon 25 Sep 23 08:10
permalink #49 of 73: J Matisse Enzer (matisse) Mon 25 Sep 23 08:10
It seems plausible that ability to use non-text based communications makes for a more attractive forum of communication, do you see evidence that is true?
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Wagner James Au: Making a Metaverse that Matters
permalink #50 of 73: Wagner James Au (wjamesau) Mon 25 Sep 23 10:42
permalink #50 of 73: Wagner James Au (wjamesau) Mon 25 Sep 23 10:42
> what are the current concerns and safeguards about control and ownership of platforms by corporations The biggest concern has been about Meta's VR-driven vision of the Metaverse which is basically a naked play to have troves extremely sensitive user data -- essentially knowing what people think and desire on a real time basic. Fortunately, Meta has almost completely failed in its Metaverse goals for reasons I explain in the book! The next big controversy will probably be around Roblox's growing dominance of the market and the fact that its main user base is kids, who are effectively creating content for a huge for-profit corporation. But so far Roblox is mostly off the radar of government bodies, which is wild. A US government research body recently interviewed me about Metaverse concerns that legislators should know about, and didn't even bring up Roblox -- I had to raise the topic!
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