Inkwell: Authors and Artists

    
Valorie Beer is currently the People Champion (aka VP of North
American HR) at E*TRADE, where she has landed after a 15-year journey
through Training, Organizational Development and Human Resources at Xerox,
Apple, and Netscape.  During her journey, she bounced from technology
(more business-oriented than people-oriented) to human resources (which
usually has the opposite problem), and along the way discovered that what
she's really interested in is the intelligent application of technology to
the very human activity of learning.

In August 1998, she was asked by Jossey-Bass Publishers to write a book on
how to use the Web for teaching and learning; the result was _The Web
Learning Fieldbook_.

Libbi Lepow, who will lead the discussion, is an Organization Development
professional with over 20 years experience in working with people in both
the corporate and non-for-profit worlds.  Currently, she's the People
Effectiveness Guru at E*TRADE Group in Menlo Park, CA (the Number One
Place to Invest Online!), and the President of her own consulting company,
Westwind Management Consulting.  She has worked with individuals and teams
in places as diverse as a nuclear power plant and a .com company, and
remains constantly intrigued at the combination of similarities and
uniqueness she finds in doing her work. For a year, Libbi and Valorie
shared the job of O.D. Director at E*TRADE, and were known to the entire
organization as "Valibbi".

Libbi has been <paris@well.com> for almost eight years.
  

    

It's a special pleasure to welcome Valorie Beer to the WELL and introduce
you to her (and to hew newest book, _The Web Learning Fieldbook_).

Valorie and I met for the first time in the fall of 1998, when we were
introduced as potential job-share partners at E*TRADE Group, then in Palo
Alto, CA.  It was love-at-first-meeting, and we spent the next 12 months as
the first director-level job share in the company - leading the organization
originally called "Training and Development".  We quickly renamed our
department "Learning and Development (because, as a friend once told me, you
train seals - people learn) and, as Linda mentioned, ourselves "Valibbi".
We knew we'd been successful in the job-share when no one in the
organization could tell us apart.  Valorie has since moved on to a different
role in the Human Resources organization, but her connection to learning in
the organization remains intact.

Valorie, I know that learning, especially adult learning, is a discipline
near and dear to you.  Would you tell us a little about your own wanderings
through the field of education and learning, and why you were motivated to
research and write specifically about web-based learning?  I'm especially
interested in this updated quote from the book:

        "I hear and I forget
         I see and I remember
         I do and I understand
         I point and click and I point and click."
  

    
Call me retro, but I firmly believe that the absolutely most
valuable teaching "machines" are real-life people.  There's just no
substitute for the relationship, interaction, and real-time
adjustments
that are only possible with a human.  However, so much of what we ask
teachers to do -- such as deliver facts or give and grade tests for
bunches of learners at at time -- is a waste and a distraction.  If we
can use a powerful and ubiquitous technology like the web to deliver
the
more routine aspects of education, we can free teachers to form the
types of relationships with their learners that involve judgment,
problem-solving and the level of creativity that only occurs when
people
interact with each other.

I wrote the Web Learning Fieldbook for only one reason:  To
see if I might inspire others to think seriously about what they want
to
teach (and learn) BEFORE they jump to this latest technological wonder
-- the web. Believe it or not, the book actually asks you to ignore
the
web (and other "educational" media) and get your act together about
what
you want to teach. Only then can you determine how (or if) the web can
help.  I wrote this book because I've spent 15 years in education
watching each technology innovation be hailed as the "savior" of
education, only to have it end up as an old book or lecture in new
clothing.  (Before the web it was CD-ROMs, and before that it was
computers in the classroom.)

Go out to some "education" sites on the web.  I'd be willing
to bet (and it's an unfair bet, 'cause I've been to most of those
sites), that your only activity will be clicking "Next" or "Back."
Learning is a change in behavior based on experience.  If you don't
get
a chance to experience the content (reading and clicking don't count),
then you haven't learned anything.  This goes back to my point about
need a real human teacher.  At some point, you need to interact and
get
feedback on your new (learned) behaviors.  The web is great for
presenting information that a learner will need in order to change
behavior; however, most web sites do a terrible (or non-existent) job
of
linking you to a real environment where you can actually use your
learning to do something that you couldn't do before.  Learning isn't
learning 'til you use it.
  

    

(In violent agreement with the above...)

This is why so many "management" training programs are built around some
kind of interactive involvement among participants and instructors, no?  And
why the best of them require that the skills get practiced?

So it sounds like one of the challenges to creating a Web-based learning
experience that truly causes behavior change is building in the interaction,
practice and feedback loops.

Have you experienced any so-called learning sites that have managed to
exactly that?
  

    
Yes, but it isn't a function of the site itself.  Many sites say that
they have "interactivity," but that usually means pointing-and-clicking
(at worst) or e-mail access(at best).  DigitalThink, for example does
a great job of using tutors in their web learning environment.  They
have a worldwide network of experts who help learners.  But for true
interaction like the kind you mentioned, the technology just isn't
there for real interaction.  However, Dean Hovey makes a good point in
his interview in the book that an incresing amount of our managerial
and other interactions are happening over the web.  So, there is
probably a place for learning how to manage and interact in a
non-face-to-face environment.  Brings a whole new dimension to "remote
management."
  

    

Welcome to inkwell.vue, Valorie.  From reading your last response, I'm
curious about who Dean Hovey is?

And, a note to our non-WELL member readers:  if you'd like to participate
in this discussion with Valorie Beer, please e-mail your comments,
questions, etc. to inkwell-hosts@well.com and we will see that they are
posted in this topic
  

    

One of the things that interested me when I read the book, Valorie, were the
possible similarities between hosting a conference on the WELL and
facilitating a learning experience on a web-based site.  I know that hosts
work hard to keep conversations flowing, to minimize discord and
distractions from the main thread of the discussion, and often to seed the
conversation when it lags.

Have you seen any examples of "virtual facilitation" on any of the sites you
visited and, if so, could you comment on the process?
  

    
Linda, Dean Hovey is the VP of Marketing at Pensare (www.pensare.com),
an organization that builds highly interactive websites for learning
leadership skills.  The foundation is a "multi-user dialogue" (MUD),
which actually had its roots in the game world. (If you've ever played
the on-line version of Dungeons & Dragons, for example, you've
experienced a MUD).

Libbi:  I think that most of the "virtual facilitation" happens behind
corporate firewalls, using products like Auditorium that create a
virtual lecture hall.  IMHO, that technology is still rather clugy, and
really doesn't inspire much interaction.  It's analogous to putting
books on line -- although I hear that Steven King's recent on-line
novella is selling well, so maybe there's hope yet!
Like in-person facilitation, on-line facilitation takes patience,
presence and perseverance.  There's no magic benefit gained from just
the technology (do I beat a dead horse??).
  

    

Well, I don't know about *beat*, exactly, but the horse ain't gettin' up and
running away, that's for sure!  ;-)

Can you talk specifically about one or two of the more effective sites you
visited during your research for the book - ones that you believe would be
good models for anyone interested in building their own learning-site?
  

    
How have folks overcome corporate cultural barriers to the
participation part of the learning -- such as allowing time for such
learning, getting over technology reluctance, affording HR resources to
faclitation? Are there some companies who have been champions or
leaders in this area?
  

    
Libbi:  Two of the best public sites that I found are California State
University's Center for Distributed Learning (www.cdl.edu), which does
great low-tech simulations.  Chuck Schneebeck and his crew have put
learning first and technology second -- and you can really learn
something from their site! Another favorite of mine is Genentech's site
for K-12 teachers (www.accessexcellence.org),which has a wealth of
information for teachers, and some of the best moderated chat rooms
I've seen on the public net.

Nancy:  I'd even broaden your list of hurdles to include "learning
reluctance."  For some bizarre reason that I've never been able to
figure out, corporations don't consider learning as part of the work.
It only begrudgingly happens during work time; employees really are
expected to do their learning not on "company time."  Unfortunately, I
think that the corporations that are most successful at it are still
those that have a bricks-and-mortar base -- a real "corporate
university."  Many, many companies have put a lot of stuff on-line and
on their intranets, but right now most of it is just the html version
of the classroom binder.  A complicating factor is that many training
departments are being ordered to put X% of their training on-line,
rather than thinking carefully about what really can be taught and
learned that way.  Netscape was doing some good things in the web
learning arena (pre-AOL), and Motorola Univeristy has a well-designed
learning site, just to name two.  Of course, most of the corporate
efforts are hidden away behind firewalls, which makes any assessment of
corporate web learning difficult.  My guess is that most companies are
still struggling to figure it out.  And even when they do create a web
learning environment, it's often done so that employees can access it
from home, not so they can do their learning at work.
  

    

Can you elaborate a little on the two sites you mentioned, Valorie?  What
is it about those two sites that differentiates them so significantly from
the others you researched?  What do you think makes that difference?  Any
details you might share with us?

I've never understood why corporations don't see learning as a valuable
activity.  Years ago, long before I understood who and what he was, I heard
Peter Drucker give a keynote speech at a conference.  The one line I
remember from that speech, one that I've quoted more times than I can count
was "People are your only appreciable asset."  It amazes me that more
corporations don't *demand* that their people learn and grow as part of
their jobs.
  

    

Yes, that word isn't used often enough, IMHO.  It seems like the word
"resource" is used instead, accompanying the usual idea of resources as
something to be used up and thrown away.

Valorie, do you think that there are certain subjects that are ideal
candidates for Web-based learning, and others that are absolutely not?
  

    
Linda:  The choice of good subjects for web learning really comes down
to the question of what kind of practice does the learner need to do
(more so than what subjects are most appropriate).  In general, you can
teach anything on the web that doesn't require hands-on practice with
the real thing.  Let's talk about some specifics to make the case
clear:  

1.  Can you teach computer programming on the web?  Yes, because you
can have the learner's program run and see if it works.
2.  Can you teach cooking on the web?  Yes, if the computer is set up
in the kitchen.
3.  Can you teach flying an airplane on the web?  No way.  With all
due respect to Microsoft Flight Simulator, there's no substitute for
the real thing (or a VERY good simulator, which web technology just
can't handle.)

A trickier question is, Can you teach human interaction skills on the
web?  I think there's a growing argument that you CAN. So much of our
interaction these days is in e-mail, chat rooms, etc, which are
legitimate (if non-face-to-face) interactions.  There's a growing case
to be made for learning how to interact in a remote, mediated
environment.
  

    

Again, I think that's one competency (or, as some of my fellow Well denizens
might attest, lack of competency) that people have developed here - more
through default than through clear intent, in many case, but...still.
  

    
So what's  your view of the idea of virtual universities as
replacements for the conventional kind?
  

    
I love the Peter Drucker quotation Libbi. I'm going to put it on my office
door!


Piggy-backing on <sumac>'s question about virtual universities, I wonder
what you think about on-line classes. In mine, I mix a packaged web-course
(for tests and texts - the sort of up-loaded "classroom binder" stuff) and
interactive conferences.  The conference (with Motet software) is so
popular that  I have to beat the students to get them out. 

Also, apparently, many of the packaged course software now includes irc
and forum sections. Seems to me, there's lots of ways to teach on-line.

What do you think?
  

    
Libbi:  Some specifics about:
www.cdl.edu
Go play with the "Painless" simulation on pain management.  It's a
low-tech (i.e., plug-in-less) simulation that lets you experiment (and
kill or cure) a simulated patient before you try your skills on the
real thing.  
www.gene.com/ae
Such a range of learning opportunities FOR TEACHERS!  They've got
mentors, learning activities exchanges, collaborative mystery (problem)
solving (see "Croak")
For other favorite sites, see p.154-155 of the book

On virtual universities:  I think the accreditation agencies are gonna
have a cow.  But, then, most regulatory agencies wish the internet had
never come along.  I don't know about REPLACING concrete universities
and classes with electronic ones; I do think we're headed toward a
balance of in-person and on-line.  We've got to get over the idea that
learning is a place.  Ironically, some of the places that are doing the
best with web learning are universities in the boondocks -- Eastern
Washington University comes to mind -- since their learners are spread
out all over the countryside.  I applaud Carol Adair -- and think she's
definitely in the minority still.  I speak at a lot of universities,
and the greatest resistance to web learning comes from the faculty. 
See Chapter 10 in the book for a review of recent research and some
recommendations on the instructor's role in a web learning environment.
  

    

What, if anything, have you been able to say to persuade some of the faculty
to try this new medium, Valorie?  And Rubi, can you talk a little more about
what you think makes your own experiment work so well?
  

    
Actually, there are thousands of students taking courses on-line.
I think the software I looked at today has 85,000 users right
now. Sometimes the course are completely on line, and sometimes they are
supplemented on line (as mine are). There are web based course kits like
the one I looked at this afternoon. (WEB CT I think it is called.) and
then there are college based like the one I use - WCB (Web Course in a
Box).

I think my courses work because I've had a lot of experience hosting and
posting on the Well. I know how to keep conversations going. And how to
interject jokes and warmth in a deadly stiff situation. No matter how good
the software, the material, the context, you got to have a little play and
juice or the whole thing grinds to a stop. I also try to set things up so
there is a minimum of "rules". I start out by giving my students only a
little room to play, but I let them play.I don't worry if they mess up -
post in the wrong place, take the wrong test, copy something they
shouldn't have copied.  As they gain the communication and computer skills
to go further, I open up more places and let them discover them _ trial
quizzes, explanations of assignments, chat rooms. It's unbelievable but
students actually *like finding quizzes! Especially if I'm right there
clapping and cheering when they find them. A lot works on tone really.



 
  

    
But back to this wonderful book. I'm looking for it everywhere. Can you
tell me what you say about course work on line?  (And where I can get this
resource?)
  

    
Carol:  I liked Web CT and Web Course in a Box, too.  They're both
listed in the tools appendix of the book.  I'm concerned that you seem
to be having trouble finding book?  It was on amazon.com  I know that
they sold out their stock in late February, but I thought they had more
by now.  There is a website for the book:  www.pfeiffer.com/beer.html
You can order it from their, or from the parent site at
www.pfeiffer.com
If all of that fails, please call Bernadette Walter, Matt Holt, or
Juddith Hibbard at Jossey-Bass/Pfeiffer, 415-433-1740.

PLEASE NOTE:  I'll be on vacation now until Sunday night, and will not
have access to the internet while I'm gone.  I will reply to
additional posts when I return on Monday.  Thank you all for your great
questions and ideas!!
  

    

Have a good trip, Valorie!  We're looking forward to your return!
  

    
Hi everyone!  I'm back from a weekend at a retreat on Trust in the
Workplace, sponsored by San Francisco Zen Center.  Looking forward to
picking up the dialogue where we left it on Friday...
  

    

Welcome back, Valorie!

(And Rubi, a copy of the book is on its way to you from Amazon.com)

Valorie, any thoughts about Carols' comments about her experience hosting
conferences here on the WELL and her success in facilitating her courses
online?
  

    
Carol, what is your specific question about courseware on line?  I
could say a lot about how to design content, activities, assessments,
interactions, and use of a teacher in a web teaching/learning
environment.  I want to make sure I take your question in the direction
that would be most helpful to you.