inkwell.vue.97 : Shoya Zichy - Women and the Leadership Q
permalink #26 of 95: Green Kate (katelacey) Sat 2 Dec 00 21:52
I tested as an introverted Green Mentor. Green seems to correspond to
the NF temperament, which fits.

My MBTI type is INFJ (and I'm a 4 on the Enneagram). 

The only doubt I have about my "Q" type is, when I read the
description of "Green Land" in the book, I shuddered. All those crafts
and stained glass windows and community porches!  Yuck. Blueville had
more overall appeal for me.
inkwell.vue.97 : Shoya Zichy - Women and the Leadership Q
permalink #27 of 95: Libbi Lepow (paris) Sat 2 Dec 00 22:33

Blues do correspond to the NT Kiersey Temperament, <kafclown>.  And Greens,
inkwell.vue.97 : Shoya Zichy - Women and the Leadership Q
permalink #28 of 95: Shoya Zichy (shoya-zichy) Sun 3 Dec 00 06:32
To Kate:  Sorry about the cut glass and craft.  When I created that
section of the village, I sat here with another Green friend and we got
into a very pronounced and spirited brainstorming session.  Obviously
we went a little overboard.  In fact all the neighborhoods are
exaggerated to make their point.  And I appreciate the fact that
Introverted Judgers (IJs) do not like exaggerations, nor do they like
interconnecting porches.  I think you will find the actual descriptions
of each group more to the point.

Now to the testing issues.  There is a number of people who have
difficulty pinpointing their preferences.  In fact, I have been working
with someone for three months trying to verify their MBTI type.  I
have obversed a couple of reasons why people have difficulty and I am
sure there are many others.

1. One spouse is very loose, adaptable and flexible and someone in the
family has take take over the organization of home, finances,
children's medical appts etc.  The other spouse takes on the an extreme
structured role, whether it is natural to them or not.  And since I
believe that many of these preferences have a basis in the
neurochemical activity of the brain, I think we create the necessary
neurons and connections to do that activity well.  However, at some
point in life, these people begin to yearn for the freedom to follow
their natural preferences and therefore begin to find appeal in both

2. The person is a supreme perfectionist.  They are so because it was
demanded of them by a parent, or because they attended very rigid
schools (some of the old parochial schools seem to fit that bill) or
they had alcoholism or abuse in the family which forced them to play
the adult role too early in their life.  

3.  The person works in an environment that demands those qualities. 
Yesterday, I spoke with a Red who is an accountant and (get this one)
partner in one of the top accounting firms.  Well she tested as a Gold
and accepted her Gold profile.  But instinctively I knew we were on the
wrong track.  So I kept talking to her and two hours later we mutually
agreed that she is indeed a Red.  She is considering a leave of
absence to run for political office.  Now to you that may not seem like
progress, but to her this is a huge amount of fun and very liberating.

The person does not read the instructions which say "What you tend to
do 51% of the time, under conditions of your ideal choosing."  All of
these preferences are part of us.  We can exercise them or not.  It is
like they say, a child is born with all the mental templates to learn
all the languages in the world.  But unless he/she uses those
templates, by they age of 6, they are gone.  I read this someplace, so
I assume this is correct.  

These are some of the reasons.  Do any of them resonate?  The best way
to resolve this rather irritating issue is to read as many MBTI
profiles as possible.  If mine don't work for you, then check out those
of Isabel Myers in Gifts Differing or Otto Kroegers in Type Talk. 
Sometimes different wording will make sense.  My website has a number
of books that I really like.  

Now to Gail's issues about having your students join us online.  I
think that would be great.  Maybe we can all get a better sense of what
aspects of the web appeal to each and how should portals be structured
to encourage the participation of the different groups. 
You can also direct them to my website which has a couple of
paragraphs on the history and uses of the model.  address above in
previous para.  

Finally to our Blue ENTP.  For those of you not familiar with the
model, I subdivide the Blues into two major categories -- The Blue
Strategist who are the focused and structured NTJs and the The Blue
Innovators who are the open-ended, flexible and adaptable NTPs.  Each
is then further subdivided into the extraverts and introverts.  So that
expands out to the 16 MBTI types.

I see more frustrated ENTPS (Extraverted Innovators) around than
almost any type, except possibly NFPs (Green Advocates)  There are too
many possibilities in the world and their span of interest is often
very short.  Usually, they are quick, bright, interested and gifted in
many areas.  

There are a couple of solutions that seem to work.  
1. Surround yourself, particularly at work, with people of
complementary talents who will take care of the details and follow up. 
And here is the important part.  Don't get impatient when they
challenge you, because they will just put their efforts elsewhere. 
Show and express appreciation.  Tell them you LOVE their logistical
skills and they will reward you by taking care of the things you hate
to do.

2. Soften some of the more extreme blindspots.  The world tolerates
idiosyncracies, (particularly if the person is creative,) but it does
not tolerate being inconvenienced.  So the mantras are  

~~~return phone calls within 24 hours (except for pesky salespeople)  
~~~do not keep cancelling lunches and other appointments with people
just because something more interesting comes along.  This should be
reserved for very important situations only.  
~~~Do not keep people waiting.  
~~~Do not hand in material late.  
~~~Do not hand in material that is factually inaccurate which will
make the other person look stupid.  

If you do these things, the world will not perceive you as flaky which
can be a problem for these two groups. 

Beyond that, it helps if you can pinpoint your passions and find ways
of spending more time with things you love as opposed to those that you
do well.   
inkwell.vue.97 : Shoya Zichy - Women and the Leadership Q
permalink #29 of 95: Konsigliari Kafka of the Cosa Nozzo (kafclown) Sun 3 Dec 00 08:49
From your local neighborhood frustrated ENTP BLEU:

Thanks, shaya, that actually really describes my sitch-you-ay-shun pretty

I work for myself, as a clown, who creates and performs shows all over
the world. I also work as my own booking person. 

 I've got lots of great ideas for shows, but seem to fizzle
out when I set down to put them out (for every show I make, I've got
15-20 ideas for new shows.  And the new shows beckon me when I start
bearing down on any particular show)
 And I've got lots of ideas about how to sell the shows, but they all
don't get enacted.  

I have been thinking that these lacks are  due to time constraints
(hey how many hats can I wear at a time? ), but as you described it, it's 
clearly personality motivated as well.  

So other than getting a tattoo that says "follow through!" on my butt, any
other suggestions?  Is it possible to beat your personality
proclivities?  Or should I be trying to judo them into strengths?
inkwell.vue.97 : Shoya Zichy - Women and the Leadership Q
permalink #30 of 95: Shoya Zichy (shoya-zichy) Sun 3 Dec 00 08:58
Well here is a thought.  Have you ever thought of bringing in a
partner, someone that would respond heavily towards the first column of
the third section on the quiz i.e. someone that is structured,
scheduled, goal oriented and who does not mind doing all the follow up.

Also let person tell you which of all of your myriad of ideas are
actually doable, how long it will take, how much it will cost and is
there really a market out there for the product.  

Offer that person a percentage for selling your show or ideas. 
Ultimately, if you work well together, you may want to set up a
partnership together.  It should be someone who is good at sales and
does the follow up phone calls.  Some good possibilities are
extraverted gold conservators or extraverted green mentors.  They both
do great follow up, they both like people, and they like helping
others.  The more different the person is from you, the better you can
cover all the different types of clients you might be dealing with. 
inkwell.vue.97 : Shoya Zichy - Women and the Leadership Q
permalink #31 of 95: Libbi Lepow (paris) Sun 3 Dec 00 09:37

One of the most profound insights I've ever had after I finally understood
the dynamics of a long-term relationship I was involved in was that I'd
spent over 15 years operating as my complete opposite (based on my actual
preferences).  My partner was strongly Introverted, so I had to stop talking
about stuff that bothered me at home.  He's a Blue (NTP) with much stronger
resistance to doing SJ stuff than I, so I was forced to be the SJ in the
relationship (or end up in debtor's prison because the bills would've never
been paid!).  My guess is if I'd taken the MBTI for the first time during
those years, I would have ended up a Gold, and very likely an Introverted,
Thinking Gold.

Couldn't be further from the truth.

As Shoya points out, it is important to validate your preferences in your
own experience.
inkwell.vue.97 : Shoya Zichy - Women and the Leadership Q
permalink #32 of 95: Kate Lacey (katelacey) Sun 3 Dec 00 10:50
Shoya thanks for responding about 'Greenville,' I realize it was a
fantasy/exaggeration...I was just sort of laughing because the
specifics were so not me.

On the question of verifying type for people who aren't sure, I think
one factor that can come into it is preconceived notions about what a
type "is," and resistance to it. The first time I took the MBTI, and
was new to it, I was *appalled* at the idea of being a J. Our
facilitator made it sound like J's were people who had no sense of
humor or fun and alphabetized their refrigerators. I felt so unsettled
by the situation of being unsure whether I was "p" or "j" I cannot tell
you. Well of course that's because I'm J and I want things settled!  I
did just what Shoya suggests - read lots of stuff about the MBTI, and
I realized I was a J indeed.

Which in turn was extremely validating...and helpful, to get some
language and context in which to understand my own need for closure and
dislike of plan-changes, etc.

And truth be told, if I had the time, I'd love to alphabetize my
inkwell.vue.97 : Shoya Zichy - Women and the Leadership Q
permalink #33 of 95: Linda Castellani (castle) Sun 3 Dec 00 10:54

Fascinating stuff.  And great advice to kafclown.  Adam, I had to smile
when I read your description of your ideas for shows because it's
exactly what I experience when making jewelry - I have so many ideas that
when I am working on one piece, all the other pieces are loudly
beckoning.  What happens next, for me, is that I have to turn a blind eye
and a deaf ear in order to complete the one at hand, and when I'm done,
and ready for the next one, I've tuned it out so completely I can't
remember what it was!
inkwell.vue.97 : Shoya Zichy - Women and the Leadership Q
permalink #34 of 95: Shoya Zichy (shoya-zichy) Sun 3 Dec 00 11:16
I think all of you are confirming that when properly used personality
typing is a great tool in many areas of life. But we need to remember
that people are fluid and can move in and out of their type when the
circumstances require it.  Also I find that as people get older they do
begin to develop their non preferences.  
inkwell.vue.97 : Shoya Zichy - Women and the Leadership Q
permalink #35 of 95: Linda Castellani (castle) Sun 3 Dec 00 11:33

Is it legal to give a potential employee a test like this during the
inkwell.vue.97 : Shoya Zichy - Women and the Leadership Q
permalink #36 of 95: Libbi Lepow (paris) Sun 3 Dec 00 14:08

I'd advise strongly against using the MBTI in hiring regardless of whether
it's legal or not (and it may well be illegal).  As Shoya said, people
develop their non-preferences - it's part of maturing and growing - and
preference isn't necessarily at all analogous to skill.  I may have no
preference for S or J, but I can - and do - balance my checkbook to the
penny every month and have been known to run complex projects as well. So
using preference as a reason to hire someone into a job can be dangerous.
imo, of course.
inkwell.vue.97 : Shoya Zichy - Women and the Leadership Q
permalink #37 of 95: Shoya Zichy (shoya-zichy) Sun 3 Dec 00 15:03
Well said Libbi.
inkwell.vue.97 : Shoya Zichy - Women and the Leadership Q
permalink #38 of 95: Libbi Lepow (paris) Sun 3 Dec 00 16:42
Thanks, Shoya!

Would you spend a little more time talking about women's leadership
styles, please?  I've encountered so many stereotypes about this issue
over the years, and am curious to hear more about the learnings from
your research for this book.
inkwell.vue.97 : Shoya Zichy - Women and the Leadership Q
permalink #39 of 95: Shoya Zichy (shoya-zichy) Mon 4 Dec 00 05:06
I found that there was a broad array of styles that became easier to
classify once I could "hook" them, if you will, to some of the MBTI

First there are some major differences in the goal setting process.  I
call these the "highway" vs "backroad" drivers.  Some people set long
term goals, get very focused, stick to their plan no matter what and,
with a little luck get there faster and more efficiently than others. 
They also feel grounded and get good press.  This is the process that
is touted as most effective.  An example is Linda Chavez-Thompson the
Executive VP of the AFL-CIO who was was asked by her father to drop out
of school to pick cotton at the age of 12 but always had a dream of
being someone.  She joined the labor union as a secretary, made herself
valuable to the power brokers and slowly rose the ranks from a bit
part in local Texas to riding on Air Force One with Clinton as a
representative of 13 million people. Just as a humorous aside, the
first thing she did on that plane was call her mother.  Another example
if of course Hillary Clinton.  

Backroad drivers are more difficult to analyze because they have short
term goals which they move and revise very opportunistically.  An
example is Kathleen Kennedy Townsend.  When things went against her,
she and her husband would reassess the situation, set new plans, move
and do whatever it took to get to the revised goal.  Many speech and
dress coaches later, she is, I gather, well on her way to becoming
Governor of MD.  

 Another difference, which I alluded to earlier, is the decision
making process.  35% of women are "thinking" deciders (make decisions
based mainly on logic and objective data) They are heavily represented
in high levels of corporations, in finance, on Wall Street, in
technology, in accounting, law and many branches of medicine.  These
women are analytical, task driven, competitive and at ease with
conflict and criticism.  An example is venture capitalist Darla Moore
who is the first woman to have business school named after following
her $25 million contribution.  She has now taken on the role of
revamping the South Carolina legislature which  she publicly announced
"looks like the governing body of a third world country."  They shout
her down, and she, looking like a Vogue model, gets up and shouts them
down.  Now not many women would find this exciting or thrilling.  One
day she walked into a business meeting and said to her clients "put on
your rubber underwear boys, this is going to be a long night."

The other 65% have a style that is more collaborative and excel at
mining the potential of people around them.  They are also more
sensitive to criticism and confrontation which can be very stressful. 
Laura Ziskin president of Fox 2000, several months ago left a very
powerful position to become head of her own production company.  As she
said, "power is not about being a studio head, it is about creating
entertainment of value that will stimulate, provoke and challenge
people."  Jolene Sykes, president of Fortune magazine, describes her
leadership style as "a soft lead.  I like to get everyone on board with
me."  This difference creates a different style as well.

The final one that I found related more to the Sensing/Intuiting
function or also known as concrete/abstract thinking.  Leadership gurus
often tout the ability to create a vision as the single most important
component of leadership.  Well the fact is that about 70% of the world
cannot create a vision.  They cannot create something that does not
exist.  they can set goals.  They can evaluate other people's visions. 
They can make good decisions and they can mobilize people to achieve
superior results.   So whenever I asked the people profiled about their
vision, which I purposely did, many would look somewhat blankly and
say well "my goal is to...." Others leaped into the topic with glee. 
So that is another difference, although a much more subtle one.

Various combinations of the above dimensions, create distinctly
different leadership styles.  
inkwell.vue.97 : Shoya Zichy - Women and the Leadership Q
permalink #40 of 95: Libbi Lepow (paris) Mon 4 Dec 00 07:54

Did you see any correlations between the styles of the women you interviewed
and the kind of organizations they led?
inkwell.vue.97 : Shoya Zichy - Women and the Leadership Q
permalink #41 of 95: Libbi Lepow (paris) Mon 4 Dec 00 12:43

I was also interested in how many of the women profiled in your book seem to
have had struggles early in their lives.  Can you speak to that issue, as
inkwell.vue.97 : Shoya Zichy - Women and the Leadership Q
permalink #42 of 95: Shoya Zichy (shoya-zichy) Mon 4 Dec 00 14:34
Well it seems that people who have a long term goal setting preference
do best in large cos or well established institutions which are
governed by long term plans.  The CEOS, Presidents and Senior VPs in my
book all fit into this category well. As did the Judge, and Senator
Hutchison who came to politics from a five year career running a

On the other side, those that started cos, ran an internet firm and
most of the those in the politics, broadcasting and entertainment
fields fit into the short term and flexible goal setting process.  The
exception to that is Dr. Nancy Snyderman who is actually a practicing
doctor and surgeon, and, on the side, makes her mark as the ABC medical

Again it is important to note that both styles can function well in
either world.  But there seems to be a marked majority as described

The second dimension, that of the thinking and feeling decision making
process also seems indicative.  All of the business managers were
thinkers.  The feelers worked their way up through the sales,
communication and marketing route.  

The concrete/abstract dimension did not divide in a significant way. 

As to your second question, I actually set out to find people of
different backgrounds so as to provide variety.  So I don't think my
sample provides insight on whether a difficult early life is predictive
and how.  About 15% of those profiled came from very poor backgrounds,
another 15% from upper social levels and the rest from a broad range
of lower to upper middle class.  
inkwell.vue.97 : Shoya Zichy - Women and the Leadership Q
permalink #43 of 95: Libbi Lepow (paris) Mon 4 Dec 00 18:06

Thanks, Shoya.
inkwell.vue.97 : Shoya Zichy - Women and the Leadership Q
permalink #44 of 95: Libbi Lepow (paris) Tue 5 Dec 00 18:00

I'm interested in hearing about how you use the LeadershipQ in your work
today.  Can you share this with us?
inkwell.vue.97 : Shoya Zichy - Women and the Leadership Q
permalink #45 of 95: Shoya Zichy (shoya-zichy) Wed 6 Dec 00 06:25
I am using it in both traditional and new ways.

I use it for coaching individuals who are burned out or unhappy with
their careers.  This usually involves people who find themselves in a
field where they are different from the majority of their peers -
lawyers, accountants, investment bankers and other high pressured
areas.  Often we find that the personality type plays a big role. 
These people are very bright and driven and therefore progress to
positions of responsibility, but they get progressively less interested
in their work.  

Once they see where the problem is then there are number of possible
solutions.  Some change fields, others stay in the field but begin to
move into another aspect of it, such as moving from research to

Others who are older and need to stay until early retirement begin to
develop hobbies as part time work with the idea of eventually starting
a small business.  Some just decide to stay put but understand the
source of tension and begin to position themselves as a special "niche"
and source of expertise. 

Others begin to put their energy into a new compelling hobby or
volunteer activity.  For example, I have an investment banker who along
with her retired husband is developing a new type of dog kennel.  They
are both highly attuned to animals.  He does the day-to-day, she
raises the money, handles the banks, does the marketing and puts time
in on weekends.  

I use it as the basis of seminars for defining management style,
developing teams and helping people define their individual "brand"
This is of course today's "hot" topic and somewhat overused, but it
does help.  It helps people create a clear message of who they are,
what they want to do and how they differ from their competition. It
helps them create what I call "the elevator speech." 

Now for a more non-traditional use, I am developing 16 investment
profiles to provide people with additional insights as to how their
personality impacts their approach to money, financial planning,
investments, risk and other financial issues.  I am marketing this to
financial planners/advisors and those folks that deal with 401(k)
investors.  This is based on research I have been doing for the last
five years connecting the Jungian dimensions to financial issues.

Otherwise, I use it personally to help me in my sales and marketing,
choosing business partners etc.

I also use with all the college kids who seem to have adopted me as an
honorary Godmother to help them with their career choices.  

inkwell.vue.97 : Shoya Zichy - Women and the Leadership Q
permalink #46 of 95: Mary Mackey (mm) Wed 6 Dec 00 10:29

Sohya, have you ever tried to connect these types to the Ennegram?
I did a lot of work with it a number of years ago, and it's been
very helpful as I create fictional characters for my novels. I
suspect there is quite a bit of overlap.
inkwell.vue.97 : Shoya Zichy - Women and the Leadership Q
permalink #47 of 95: Shoya Zichy (shoya-zichy) Wed 6 Dec 00 16:26
Yes Mary there is an interesting overlap but not in terms of
similarities.  Actually I am fairly new to the Enneagram world but have
pursuing the connection.  The most interesting tie I have heard of so
far is from Pat Wyman, a therapist in MO, who uses the two models as a
basis of her practice and is about to come out with a book.   

She says the enneagram number is the protective circle a child a
begins to build around his or her MBTI type to protect the inner core
of his/her being.  And this makes a lot of sense.  

So for example you can have an ENFP which would be a Green Advocate
Extravert in my book who is an enneagram 1; another who is a 7 and
another who is a 9.  They all share common core needs, energizers and
motivations but they look and act very differently.  This is a very
interesting overlay that I hope to pursue over the next few months.  I
think it will go a long way to explain all the variations within each
inkwell.vue.97 : Shoya Zichy - Women and the Leadership Q
permalink #48 of 95: Cynthia Dyer-Bennet (peoples) Wed 6 Dec 00 19:13
Shoya, reading through this topic I see the primary focus as being directed
toward career/financial success. Do you think that the Q quiz can be
valuable in terms of conflict in personal relationships?
inkwell.vue.97 : Shoya Zichy - Women and the Leadership Q
permalink #49 of 95: Mary Mackey (mm) Wed 6 Dec 00 21:41

Thanks, Shoya. That's fascinating.
inkwell.vue.97 : Shoya Zichy - Women and the Leadership Q
permalink #50 of 95: Shoya Zichy (shoya-zichy) Thu 7 Dec 00 03:18
I find it invaluable in personal relationships.  

Anecdotally, I observe that romantic relationships (at least in first
marriages or among young people) occur between people who are more
different than similar.  This could well be a biological imperative. 
If nothing else, it is nature's way of ensuring that we cover all the
bases for the kids.  So understanding when someone is just acting true
to type and not out to persecute you does indeed reduce stress.  The
behavior may still irritate you but it is not personal. 

It is a bit like saying that no matter how cute, affectionate or bred
for personality your cat is, it can never be a dog.  And if you expect
it to be, you just have a very frustrated cat.

Many people comment after seminars that they wish they had had this
information 20 years ago.  They could have saved themselves a lot of
arguments, and more than a few divorces as well.

Now friendships are different.  I find that the people with whom I
spend a lot of time , chitchat on the phone , enjoy spending many hours
in the car with etc, are very similar to me.  We just seem to
effortlessly run along the same track.  The ones that are different
from me, I enjoy and have a lot of respect for, but I see them less
often and our conversations tend to be shorter.  

This is particularly true of family situations, holidays etc, when we
do spend a lot of time together and where people cluster around
different type groups.  Here I would say, the insights are essential.  


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