Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
Started by: Eric S Theise (estheise) on Mon, Nov 2, '92
69 responses so far <linked topic>

Cultures in Cyberspace is an open participation virtual panel on the
development and impact of artistic and cultural activity on computer
networks, beginning Nov 2, 1992 on the following systems:

American Indian Telecommunication/Dakota BBS (USA)
ArtsNet (Pegasus, Australia)
Arts Wire (The Meta Net, USA)
USENET (International)

Cultures in Cyberspace proposes to discuss and address:
* creative expression and cultural identity online
* access to cyberspace for artists and the public
* the impact of cyberspace on distinct cultural groups,
and vice versa.

The next few responses give an overview of the panel and The WELL's
participation in it.

69 responses total.

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#1 of 69: Eric S Theise (estheise) Mon Nov 2 '92 (13:35) 26 lines

Judy Malloy and I are opening this topic as part of Cultures in Cyberspace,
a virtual panel running on five conferencing systems in conjunction with TISEA
(the Third International Symposium on Electronic Art) in Sydney, Australia.

Each of these systems -- American Indian Telecommunications, ArtsNet, Arts
Wire, USENET, The WELL -- will be opening a discussion topic today. At the
end of each day, discussion will be ported into the USENET newsgroup alt.isea.

The upside of this structure is that participants on each system will get
a sense of the community on all other systems: from personalities of the
individual participants to conferencing system conventions to larger community
norms and standards. And it seems likely that this will result in a truly
amazing cross-fertilization of ideas.

The downside is that posting everything from this topic into a USENET newsgroup
flies in the face of one of our own community standards: you own your own
words. We're expecting that when you post in this special topic, you're
consenting to having your words crossposted.

The next few responses are the initial posts to alt.isea, which describe
the conference and this panel. Two of them are <hidden>, which is a WELL
feature used to keep long posts out of the way of conversation. They are
readable using the !extract command.

Welcome to Cultures in Cyberspace!

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#2 of 69: Eric S Theise (estheise) Mon Nov 2 '92 (13:36) 42 lines


alt.isea is dedicated to exploration of and communication
about electronic cultures.

alt.isea is created initially as the cyberspace forum for
electronic art events at the Third International Symposium
on Electronic Art (TISEA), which also takes place in Sydney,
Australia, November 9-13, 1992. An international forum for
artists, scientists, musicians, critics, theorists and
performers, TISEA will provide a unique opportunity to explore
questions concerning recent developments in science, art and
technology and their impact on the evolution of culture.

alt.isea events are open to your participation, and include:

* Cultures in Cyberspace, a virtual panel
* online art works
* artist biographies

After the TISEA conference, this newsgroup will continue to
provide an ongoing forum for electronic artists to communicate
with each other internationally.


The First International Symposium on Electronic Art in 1988 was
initiated with the explicit purpose of founding an umbrella
organisation for the electronic arts. The Inter-Society for
Electronic Arts (ISEA) was founded just before the Second
International Symposium on Electronic Art took place in 1990.
ISEA now coordinates the continuation of the symposia and
several other activities.

- - - - --- - - -- - -- - ---- - - - - -- --- - --- ---- --- -- -
Anna Couey
Telecommunications Subcommittee/TISEA
Arts Wire Network Coordinator
-- - - - - - -- -- - - - - -- --- ---- ---- - - - ---- - -- --- --

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#3 of 69: Eric S Theise (estheise) Mon Nov 2 '92 (13:36) 125 lines

Cultures in Cyberspace
an open participation virtual panel on the development and
impact of artistic and cultural activity on computer networks,
beginning Nov 2, 1992 on the following systems:

American Indian Telecommunication/Dakota BBS (USA)
ArtsNet (Pegasus, Australia)
Arts Wire (The Meta Net, USA)
USENET (International)

Cultures in Cyberspace proposes to discuss and address:

* creative expression and cultural identity online
* access to cyberspace for artists and the public
* the impact of cyberspace on distinct cultural groups,
and vice versa.

Participants are encouraged to add to this list!

The panel is created on the occasion of the Third International
Symposium on Electronic Art (TISEA) held in Sydney, Australia
from November 9-13, 1992.

Cultures in Cyberspace is organized by Anna Couey, in collaboration
with George Baldwin, Phillip Bannigan, Anne Fallis, Sue Harris,
Judy Malloy, Joe Matuzak, John S. Quarterman, Randy Ross, and
Eric S. Theise.


Computer networks provide access to an internationally linked
electronic communications territory -- cyberspace. In cyberspace,
communities form out of interest and choice, more than geography.
As with multi-national corporations, computer networks are
drawing new lines of social organization.

In contrast to the telephone or television, computer networks
are a many-to-many communications medium -- the virtual communities
that inhabit them exist through active participation amongst
their members. This technology would seem to incur a new social
order -- one based on reciprocity and interaction, rather than
imperialist domination.

The catch is that computer networks are not accessible to
everyone. Cyberspace is being colonized primarily by countries
with access to a high level of technology; and within those
countries, largely by the current power elite. At the same time,
historically and now there is significant and effective
international grassroots computer networking constituency, as well
as public and local access BBS', at least in the U.S.

What is culture in cyberspace? In Australia, Canada, the U.S., and
parts of Europe, some artists have gained access to computer networks
and are using them to make and distribute art. Those working in a
Euro-American artistic tradition often experiment with conferencing
software to create works that evolve from a process of participatory,
interactive communication. Native American artists in the U.S. have
developed online graphic share-art, through which they represents their
distinct cultures, and provide another source of income for tribal
communities. In many 3rd world countries where poverty is high, and
computers and phone lines are rare, networking projects are generally
operated by non-governmental organizations or educational institutions,
and tend to focus on economic or social development, not cultural
preservation or participation.

How will cybercultures evolve? Is it important for cultural
participation in cyberspace? And if so, how can and is equitable
access made available to all cultural groups? What will happen to
cultural groups that remain offline? Will cultural groups that do
access cyberspace lose their distinct identities through a process
of interaction? And, if so, is such an occurrence cultural evolution
or homogenization -- something to explore or something to avoid at
all costs? What is the role of cybercultural activity in cyberspace
itself; what is its role in the offline culture that initiated it?

To participate:

Connect to one of the following systems between Nov 2-13, 1992,
or post to the USENET newsgroup, alt.isea, directly. Local
discussions on the following systems will be distributed to other
sites via alt.isea.

American Indian Telecommunication/Dakota BBS
coordinators: George Baldwin (
Anne Fallis (
Randy Ross (
location: Dakota BBS, 406.341.4552 (8N1)

coordinators: Sue Harris and Phillip Bannigan (

Arts Wire
coordinator: Joe Matuzak (
location: artswirehub

USENET (International)
coordinator: John S. Quarterman (
location: tba

coordinators: Judy Malloy ( and
Eric S. Theise (
location: virtual communities (vc)

For further information contact:

Anna Couey
Telecommunications Subcommittee/TISEA
Arts Wire Network Coordinator
1077 Treat Ave.
San Francisco, CA 94110
tel: 415.826.6743

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#4 of 69: Eric S Theise (estheise) Mon Nov 2 '92 (13:37) 468 lines

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#5 of 69: Eric S Theise (estheise) Mon Nov 2 '92 (13:37) 178 lines

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#6 of 69: Eric S Theise (estheise) Mon Nov 2 '92 (13:41) 5 lines

Responses 4 and 5 contain, respectively, the schedule of TISEA events
and a listing of the online activities at the seminar. To see them, type:

!extract vc 83 4
!extract vc 83 5

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#7 of 69: Eric S Theise (estheise) Mon Nov 2 '92 (13:43) 3 lines

Linking from virtual communities 83 to mids 44; mids (Matrix Information
and Directory Services) is a private conference on the use of multiple
networks that are capable of exchanging e-mail and network news.

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#8 of 69: Judy Malloy (jmalloy) Mon Nov 2 '92 (17:05) 34 lines

There are similarities between the ever changing cultural community
events that gallery and artspace and performance openings are and the
online communities I realized as I browsed through this Virtual
Communities conference for the first time a few days ago. It was like
walking into an opening (these days) somewhere South of Market - feeling
first ill at ease in an entering crowd of unfamiliar, often younger
looking faces (like returning to an old neighborhood and seeing that a
house that one lived in for years is no longer peeling, grayed white but
a crisp new yellow ); feeling on familiar territory with unfamiliar
faces; feeling older/"removed" and longing for the good old days when I
knew almost everyone walking in and could expect to meet all my friends

But soon I began to look at what is here in Virtual Communities - to
react and respond to topics on collaboration and the Feeling of "Place"
(as one reacts and responds to the integrating common art ground at
openings) and, in the process, feel more at home. Then as at art events,
familiar faces began to come in focus in the crowd - people I hadn't seen
for a long time who it was wonderful to see again - Hello Howard, M,
Tom, Maria, Carl, Steve, Matisse, skidrow and many others. So nice to
read your words again!

I'm Judy Malloy, pop conceptual artist, information artist, Associate
Editor of Leonardo and Leonardo Electronic News, searcher for odd jobs to
make ends meet. I've made art on the WELL off and on since 1985. Some
were collaborative works made by many WELL and/or internet citizens.
Others, like UNCLE ROGER, were individual "artware" running in the shell.
Right now I'm in New Hampshire staying with family, beginning the second
part of my narrabase THE YELLOW BOWL and suffering not so silently the
high costs of rural telephone systems.


Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#9 of 69: Judy Malloy (jmalloy) Tue Nov 3 '92 (05:11) 14 lines

I'm a little out of touch with what's being done on the WELL now, but I
like what I've seen of Brian Andreas' HALL OF WHISPERS: A VIRTUAL OPERA
a work that simulates mythological Babylonian ziggurat rooms where
whispers were permanent residents.

One thing I like about it is that the stories and themes coming through
are things that people can connect to - things like generation gap
stories, parenting stories. "moments of love."

Has anybody been following/participating in this work?
Or, Brian - can you post something here about HALL OF WHISPERS?


Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#10 of 69: Virtually Encumbered (mattu) Tue Nov 3 '92 (06:04) 2 lines

A summary/explanation/primer for Hall of Whispers can be found in artcom,
Topic 678. (g acen, s 678).

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#11 of 69: John Coate (tex) Tue Nov 3 '92 (15:44) 2 lines

A PARTY IN WOODSIDE by Judy Malloy is my favorite online art piece I've yet

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#12 of 69: Virtually Encumbered (mattu) Tue Nov 3 '92 (17:28) 1 line

And where can that be seen?

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#13 of 69: Judy Malloy (jmalloy) Wed Nov 4 '92 (04:59) 8 lines

Fred Truck, The Systems Designer for ACEN says he'll be along in a while
to introduce himself. Also Brian Andreas says he'll come over in a few
days and tell us about Hall of Whispers but that today his kids have the


Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#14 of 69: Judy Malloy (jmalloy) Wed Nov 4 '92 (05:00) 73 lines

Thanks John!

To find A Party in Woodside, go acen
From inside acen, type art
and you'll see this menu on which there is a lot of good art:

Art Com Electronic Network

You have arrived at ACEN: Datanet Artworks. Here you
can find unique editions released by the network. Please
enter the number of your choice:

1. The First Meeting of the Satie Society,
by John Cage
2. Diagrams Series 4.1 through 4.17
by Jim Rosenberg
3. Artnet
4. Uncle Roger
by Judy Malloy
5. Bad Information
6. Exquisite Corpse by Gil MinaMora
7. George Maciunas, Fluxus, and the Face of Time
by Fred Truck
8. Digital Mudra: The Philosopher,
An Interactive Artwork by Sonya Rapoport
9. Twelve Untitled Visual Works by Ron Buck
10. Return to The Start Menu

Enter your selection, H for help
or control-d to exit.
: 4
A PArty in Woodside is File 1 of Uncle Roger, so to see it choose 4 for
Uncle Roger and then folllow the Uncle Roger menu. Personally, I like
the second two files (The Blue Notebook and Terminals) Due to some path
changes in the new WELL system (we think), some people had trouble
accessing Bad Information so I just went back and "pathed" out all the
filenames the program accessed. This may have to be done with Uncle
Roger too so if anyone has any trouble with it, let me know.

Art Com Electronic Network

UNCLE ROGER is a three part interactive novel
which is read by retrieving fictional narrative
information. In the first two parts or "files",
each reader follows an individual path through the
story by searching key elements called "keywords".
File 1, A PARTY IN WOODSIDE, is read by searching
one keyword. File 2, THE BLUE NOTEBOOK, is read
by searching combinations of keywords. The third
file, TERMINALS, simulates the narrator's memory
patterns. It is read by asking the computer to
retrieve narrative information at random.

Please enter the number of your selection at the
prompt below.

3. File 3 - TERMINALS
4. Return to the Start Menu

Enter your selection, H for help

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#15 of 69: Col Fjt (fjt) Wed Nov 4 '92 (17:05) 40 lines

Hi. I'm Fred Truck, one of the hosts of The Art Com Electronic Network
(ACEN). The other hosts are Carl Loeffler and Gil Minamora.

Carl and I began ACEN in 1986--that is, it was formally launched then.
We actually began thinking about it and working towards it in 1984.

At that time, I was doing a lot of databases filled with art information.
I had begun to explore the on-line situation, and discovered a number
of things I thought were important for artists to consider. One was that
through telecommunications, the art community no longer had to be physically
located in New York, or anywhere else. If you had a computer, modem and
a telephone, you could live anywhere and participate in electronic
space. This was exceedingly important to me, because I live in Des Moines,
Iowa, a small city of about 300,000 that is in the heartland of America,
far from the main cultural centers.

The second thing I had discovered was that databases could be added to
by users. To me, this was exciting, because that meant that the work of
updating information could be done by those who were interested. It also
meant that people could do art that way--additively, collectively. I
was working at the time, and still am, on a database of information on
performance artists called The Electric Bank. People deposit information
in the bank, and hopefully withdraw it and use it. It is a sort of
database performance art piece itself.

When I met Carl, he had made some attempts at beginning a database on
artists that was to be on-line, but had encountered hardware limitations.
When he was offered some space on the WELL some time later, he invited me
to help him design and set up ACEN. The hardware limitations were solved,
and together we moved Art Com Magazine on-line.

I should say here that Carl Loeffler is CEO of Art Com, a San Francisco
based arts organization. One of the many things Art Com does is publish
information on contemporary art. At the time ACEN began (1984-86), Art
Com Magazine was the organization's primary publication vehicle. Through
Carl's efforts, ably assisted by Anna Couey, Nancy Frank, Darlene Tong and
others, Art Com Magazine made the world of art and technology accessible to
its readers. ACEN was begun to publish the electronic realization of
Art Com Magazine.

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#16 of 69: Judy Malloy (jmalloy) Fri Nov 6 '92 (05:05) 16 lines

Hi Fred,

Nice to hear from you here. Fred and I have been in pretty constant
email communication since Carl introduced us back in 1986 and have
shared the step by step development of our often very different in
content but formally and philosophically related works. For me,
as it is for me in any community, it is the close friends and sustained
dialogue that have become the most important aspect of this virtual
community but this dialogue exists within the WELL virtual community and
I am realizing as I write this that because of that community framework
it seems more neighborly, more grounded than dialogues with internet
friends and colleagues. However, those dialogues are valuable too - like
long distance telephone calls to a wider community.


Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#17 of 69: Judy Malloy (jmalloy) Fri Nov 6 '92 (05:07) 8 lines


Before you go off to Australia tomorrow (or perhaps while you are
there) do you have time to tell us something about your experiences
working with Art Com Magazine here on the WELL and compare them to your
current work with Arts Wire? Are these communities and the
expereince of working with them related/different?

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#18 of 69: Eric S Theise (estheise) Fri Nov 6 '92 (16:16) 19 lines

Judy, Anna left for Australia on Thursday with a bagful of worries, like:

- although her power adaptor was taken care of, it looks like her modem's
not compatible with Australian phonelines.

- the alt.isea newsgroup was created at the Australian end, but apparently
the folks who did it didn't follow standard procedures, so uunet, the
major trunk line for USENET, doesn't want to carry it. It's still being
negotiated, but the separate discussions may be have to be crossposted
via a mailing list. It works, but it cuts out the curious.

(People reading this from within the MIDS conference may want to check in
the menus under frequent USENET posts to see how new newsgroups are
supposed to be formed and also what the alt hierarchy is about.)

So it may be a few days before we hear from Anna. AARNet (the major
Australian network provider) was supposed to provide TISEA with a full
Internet connection, but we'll have to wait and see if they deliver.

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#19 of 69: Eric S Theise (estheise) Fri Nov 6 '92 (16:19) 47 lines

I've introduced the topic, but not myself. I've got a Ph.D in operations
research, which is an engineering-sort of field that relies on mathematical
and computer models of real world systems. The models are used to determine
the best way of doing things or what happens over the long term when various
parameters are changed. Some examples where operations research models have
been successful include traffic flow, manufacturing planning and scheduling,
economic trade, waiting line analysis, and computer network routing. There
have been applications in the service and nonprofit sectors, but OR typically
finds its strongest support in corporate and military sectors.

I moved to California three years ago to teach in San Jose State's new
undergraduate program in manufacturing management. It sucked, I quit. I'm
now in a tenure track slot at the Naval Postgraduate School where I teach
ergonomics, human-system interface, and wide area networking. Frankly,
whatever level of expertise I've reached with networks I owe to my time at
the postgrad school, but teaching military officers is not what I thought
I'd be doing to earn a living. Not in my wildest dreams/worst nightmares.

There could easily be a whole topic (or conference) on the expectations and
pressures in the culture of *academia*.

Anyway, about as long as I've been interested in math and computers I've
been interested in film. It started with an interest in abstract animation,
but quickly grew to include what's traditionally called experimental or
avant-garde filmmaking. I have worked with several showcases (Experimental
Film Coalition in Chicago, Cinematheque in San Francisco, and producing my
own screenings in Boulder and SF), have written some, and filmed some. I'm
currently the president of Cinematheque's Board, which is one way of
integrating my artistic interests with my business/engineering training.

Another example of integration was consulting with the Exploratorium on
their recent "Tracing Time" show, which featured Mike Mandel's photographs
that were based on a photographic technique used by efficiency engineers
Frank and Lillian Gilbreth in the early part of this century. I got to
design exhibits, influence the film program, and give a mildly-multi-media
lecture on the history of industrial engineering. Fun!

I'm interested in learning about online artists, but I'm also interested in
artists online; that is, artists using networks to collaborate on work that's
not necessarily online and for advocacy and organizational reasons. The
experimental film and video community in SF is currently organizing to combat
the increasing marginalization its work, and I've been posting progress
reports to The WELL and Arts Wire. I imagine that forming our own USENET
newsgroup might make sense soon because there's a lot of interest from other
geographically dispersed centers of film and video making, and a lot of these
people have access to the nets through university connections. Or relatively
low cost access through public unix sites in major metro areas.

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#20 of 69: Body by (briney) Fri Nov 6 '92 (22:24) 91 lines

Well, Judy asked me to drop in & describe my project HALL OF
WHISPERS: A VIRTUAL OPERA. Let's see if I can give you an idea of
what I set out to do & what's been happening...

The HALL OF WHISPERS took its initial concept from a Babylonian
myth, as Judy said earlier, of a specially constructed room in
one of the ziggurats where whispers stayed alive forever. I asked
participants around the world first to consider what that room
would sound like after all these centuries, filled with those
secret whispered stories. We would no longer have any context on
any of the stories told throughout the ages: the stories of
betrayal and faith, greed and love, would lose their individual
significance and would take on a larger movement, like waves in
the sea of human consciousness.

And second, I asked participants to send the stories that make up
their experience of life today. I don't know who said this, but
the quote goes something like: Art tells what it was like to live
life during the time it was made. I hoped if we collected enough
stories and allowed people to find connections between them, we'd
be able to get a sense of what it means to be alive today. As
stories came in, they were sent out to all other participants (by
their preferred medium) so they could be linked, responded to, or
simply savored.

The electronic storage component of the HALL OF WHISPERS is a
meta-text database that handles both text and sound files and
allows participants (only locally so far) to connect stories they
read/hear with other stories on the database. Stories can be
connected in a myriad of ways, both by theme, or directly to
another story or set of linked stories.

There were several other ideas at work here. They are (briefly):

1. Stories are a way of organizing knowledge without being
trapped into factual, statistical analysis. Stories give a truer
picture of the <experience> of living than a factual list of
conditions or indicators.

2. The methodology of the <council> as a way of gaining greater
knowledge. In council each participant is a peer and participants
speak when they have something to say - it is a decidedly non-
linear way of coming to consensus. I hoped to set up a situation
where each participant could come to their own conclusions about
the meanings of the stories and their interconnections.

3. Along with this was my belief that we oftentimes get caught in
conceptual traps of our own devising. Right now, we are
undergoing a major social/paradigmatic shift with the anguish
that comes with great change, and it is easy to lose sight of the
small beauties and moments of grace that occur constantly around
us. I wanted HALL OF WHISPERS to give voice to that side of
ourselves that recognizes that this is as much a time of renewal
as it is a time of decay.

So, the call for participation went out around the nets, as well
as to participants via FAX, telephone & standard mail.
(Interestingly enough, a large part of the project which I didn't
foresee in the beginning were the long walks and talks in my
neighborhood in Berkeley. I passed along stories from project
participants and received stories in return from the people I

Overall, here's my sense of what happened (and is continuing to
happen): Storytelling is 90% context; ask someone to tell you a
story and most of the time you'll get a leaden, apologetic
attempt. Sit a group of people around a good meal and a couple of
bottles of wine and tell about the time you made stew and put in
too much flour to thicken it, and stories will fill the air in no

People who have read the Hall of Whispers entries invariably have
a story of their own; the whispers act as that necessary context,
and people naturally begin to make connections and associations.
(Participants look forward to the newest batch of stories coming
in, so much so that this last two weeks when I was in an enforced
hiatus from the flu (2 kids with it as well), I was deluged with
e-mail, FAXes and calls wondering whether the project was still

Is it a virtual community? I'm not sure. I am sure that HALL OF
WHISPERS has given a more human face to the web of our connected
world. People in my neighborhood are amazed at the stories they
hear from other places, and they reach deep into their own store
of memory to pass on a gift in return. It has been a chance to
share stories, to tell and to listen, to be reminded of what it
means to be alive. The technologies that have made it possible
serve only to remind people of how few are the differences that
divide us, and how many experiences may bring us together...

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#21 of 69: Jim Kent (jkent) Sat Nov 7 '92 (01:49) 1 line


Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#22 of 69: Brian Andreas (briney) Sat Nov 7 '92 (08:26) 2 lines

(Just noticed that I forgot to change my pseud when I popped
in from acen...hope it doesn't wreak havoc with usenetters...)

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#23 of 69: Judy Malloy (jmalloy) Sat Nov 7 '92 (16:32) 15 lines

Thanks, Brian

Great project

Eric -

> The experimental film and video community in SF is currently organizing
>to combat the increasing marginalization its work, and I've been posting
>progress reports to The WELL and Arts Wire.

Can you post some of this information here or point us to it?


Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#24 of 69: Eric S Theise (estheise) Sat Nov 7 '92 (19:00) 9 lines

Double thanks, Brian. The experimental media stuff has been posted
in the filmmaking conference in the topic called 'Town Meeting for
Personal, Experimental Media Artists'; g film, topic 17. The next
meeting is scheduled for Wednesday, Nov. 11, 7 pm. at New Langton Arts,
and the main agenda items are: picking a name for the coalition and
planning an action related to the S.F. International Film Festival's
cancellation of the 'New Visions' category. Letter writing and
fax jamming are a couple of ideas that were bounced around at the
last meeting, but now we have additional information.

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#25 of 69: Robert Campanell (robcamp) Sat Nov 7 '92 (20:05) 25 lines

Hello. I'm Robert Campanell. I've been involved in a virtual
community that's come out of it's cocoon, and connected in the
physical world.

The community is called ne-raves. It started as a nets mailing
list for rave enthusiasts on the U.S. east coasts. We now
starting to get together on a regular basis. We hold pre-rave
parties before some of the major raves. The first pre-rave was
at Laura DeGassa's apt. in Hoboken NJ. She's the editor of Rave-
O-Matic, an weekly calendar of upcomming raves on the east coast.

Ne-ravers came from Boston, Washington, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh,
NY/NJ, and Delaware attended the NJ Sputnik II pre-rave. The
ne-ravers brought their turntables, techno, and homemade lasers.
Laura made 3x5 badges for the ne-ravers to were at the raves so
everyone can recognize each other. I had a couple of people come
up to me at last rave I went to who recognized the ne-raves

The ne-raves community is a group of musicians, vr world
designers, students, engineers, and zine publishers. The rave
scene and techno music is the glue that holds this community
together. The net is the infrastructure we use to keep the
scene alive and help it's continued evolution.

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#26 of 69: Eric S Theise (estheise) Sat Nov 7 '92 (22:19) 4 lines

There's also an sf-raves list on this end of the country for Bay
Area ravers. They actually host raves, I think, not just pre-raves.
I know of people at least as far away as Portland who subscribe and
occasionally make it down here for raves.

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#27 of 69: Eric S Theise (estheise) Sat Nov 7 '92 (23:47) 78 lines

Also, since Anna's away and I'm temporary net coordinator for Arts Wire,
I can address some of the questions about that system.

Technologically, Arts Wire is part of the Meta Network, a 386-based unix
microcomputer that uses Caucus as its conferencing system. There are
other groups on MetaNet besides Arts Wire. Access is dial-up; direct in
the Washington, DC area or through public data networks; SprintNet seems
to be what most people use. I use PC Pursuit (still Sprint, but
different pricing policy) and I think others use CompuServe's Packet

MetaNet, despite its name, is a far-reaching BBS not a network.

Arts Wire has been up since mid-1992 and is small, but growing. There
are over one hundred subscribers and a handful of conferences, including
artswirehub (roughly equivalent to The WELL's wellcome and news
conferences), newmusnet (moderated by Pauline Oliveras), craftnet,
litnet (literary), studio, money (on financial opportunities for artists
and art organizations), blindsnake (tributes to the late Jim Pomeroy),
and others. There are also private planning conferences, and online
resources such as Hot Wire (a compilation of news affecting the arts)
and a library of uploaded text and binary files.

Here's one interesting sidenote on community: since I'm acting as net
coordinator, I feel more of a responsibility to know what's going on in
all parts of Arts Wire. The past few days I've been spending *much*
more time online in conferences that I rarely visited. And, among other
surprises, the money conference is *really* good. Lots of opportunites
there that I wouldn't have heard of any other way.

Overall community on Arts Wire? It's a friendly and supportive place.
There hasn't been a true flame war yet, although voices sometimes get
raised between subscribers and the MetaNet providers. There is a fair
amount of topic drift -- not necessarily a bad thing -- that seems to
occur because people are more eager to jump into a conversation than to
preserve a topic for future reference. What I mean to say is that
rather than start a new topic, people typically add to old ones. Which
makes for interesting conversation, but if you want to find the
discussion you read last week on subject X, well, chances are there is
no topic X, and you'll have to use a search command. This may change
with experience.

People have had a hard time learning to use the Caucus tools. It's not
a function of online experience, because I have trouble with the tools
myself. I can't always get things to work the way I want them to.

People tend to pop into other conferences even if they're outside their
own discipline. Like I said, it's a supportive, fairly chatty place.

Other interest groups are working to form conferences (e.g., artists
with disabilities), but the pricing structure and time constraints do
not encourage this. Because most people access Arts Wire through a
pay-by-the-minute service, it's difficult to spend a lot of time online
building conferences. Especially since we're talking about artists and
art organizations with small and shrinking budgets.

Arts Wire has three subscription categories, each with three components.

Arts Wire: $3, $7, or $15/month
MetaNet: $15/month
SprintNet: $ 6.75/hour

Arts Wire: $5, $10, or $25/month (for organizations with annual
budgets of $50K, $100K, or $250K, respectively)
MetaNet: $15/month/user account
SprintNet: $ 6.75/hour

Arts Wire: $1000 minimum, $2000 regular/year
MetaNet: $15/month/user account
SrpintNet: $ 6.75/hour

MetaNet has been promising that a 486 upgrade and true Internet
connection are coming Real Soon Now for months. When they do,
performance and access should improve dramatically.

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#28 of 69: Eric S Theise (estheise) Sat Nov 7 '92 (23:58) 4 lines

Well, it's nearly midnight and The WELL goes into its weekly backup
mode in a hour and a half. Think I'll post this topic to alt.isea and
the mailing list that's been set up and we'll hopefully see what the
other four panel sites have been up to these past few days.

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#29 of 69: Matisse Enzer (matisse) Sun Nov 8 '92 (14:27) 2 lines

Note that the WELL has offered to feed Metenet the news greoup (we'd
give thema uucp accoutn here) but we haven't eard back from them.

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#30 of 69: Eric S Theise (estheise) Sun Nov 8 '92 (17:41) 1 line

I'll ask about it when I head over there in a few minutes ... thanks!

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#31 of 69: Judy Malloy (jmalloy) Mon Nov 9 '92 (17:52) 47 lines

I just finished putting together the November issue of Leonardo Electronic
News (I do every other issue) and I think its a good one, so here's the table
of contents:

Leonardo Electronic News Contents

Leonardo Electronic News is another of the many resources in our
WELL arts community. It's part of FAST, a subscription art and technology
information service on the WELL that Craig Harris will be along to tell
us about here in a few days. It's also available on alt.artcom (where
this issue will be posted at the end of this week), and on the Art Com
Electronic menu, I believe although I haven't tried that lately. Fred,
Gil - is LEN posted in the faf selection these days?


Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#32 of 69: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Mon Nov 9 '92 (20:36) 12 lines

Hi, folks...I'm Jon Lebkowsky, and my body's in Austin, Texas, while my
head's poked here and there in cyberspace.... I cohost the Mondo 2000
conference on the WELL (as well as Whole Earth, History, and Rodeo,
plus a couple of private conferences), and I'm associate editor of
bOING bOING magazine. I edit my own magazine, Unshaved Truths, and
with my close friend Paco Xander Nathan, I've just started a business
called FringeWare, Inc. In addition to all this, I'm active with EFF-
Austin, and I have a day job. So how can one guy do all this stuff?
If would be totally impossible for me to handle a fraction of these
projects without computer networking. And to my mind, the real promise
in networking is in the potential for community-building, and the
flexibility with which we can evolve cultures and cultural representations.

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#33 of 69: Steve Cisler (sac) Tue Nov 10 '92 (02:41) 14 lines

My name is Steve Cisler. I work in the library at Apple Computer.
Part of my job is to administer a grant program for libraries called
Apple Library of Tomorrow. Quite a few of the projects have been
involved in furthering artistic and cultural preservation (and
dissemination) of national archives (American Memory at Library
of Congress and Project Chapman at the Smithsonian), local archives
(Singing Light, a CD-ROM of California Indian artifacts and oral
history; Zuni Dictionary fromthe Zuni Middle School in Zun, NM)
and another one with the Ancient Biblical Manuscript Center that
houses the Dead Sea Scroll photos in Claremont, CA.

I am most interested in how very conservative groups will use the
technology to preserve artifacts for another 100, 500, or thousand
years when the technology changes daily.

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#34 of 69: Judy Malloy (jmalloy) Tue Nov 10 '92 (05:25) 13 lines

Thanks Jon, Steve. It seems to me that this topic is serving an
unanticipated purpose of letting us here on the WELL know of parallel
cultural developments in our community - anyhow its doing that for me,
it's great to see information about things going on in our shared text-
based cyberspace that I at least didn't know about, and its making me
accelerate an escape from New Hampshire - a physically beautiful state
("wow look at all those trees", my California bred son said continually
and somewhat facetiously when he came to visit), but its overwhelmingly
white yankee culture cannot be easily enhanced in virtual communities
because of the high cost of rural phone calls.

Say Howard, are you out there? Got anything to say about the
relationship of the Whole Earth Reivew to the WELL?

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#35 of 69: Kathleen Creighton (casey) Tue Nov 10 '92 (06:30) 1 line

Howard's out of town. He might check in briefly some time this week.

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#36 of 69: Col Fjt (fjt) Tue Nov 10 '92 (16:55) 4 lines

Well, the LEONARDO ELECTRONIC NEWS is not in the faf area of the
main ACEN menu. Fine Arts Forum is. I think that LEN is in alt.artcom,
which is ACEN's altnerate newsgroup in USENET. I also have received
it in my e-mail.

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#37 of 69: Body by (briney) Tue Nov 10 '92 (18:17) 2 lines

Truly, it is great to hear about all this activity here in our
own little WELL world. Thanks for all the postings...

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#38 of 69: Craig Harris (craig) Wed Nov 11 '92 (18:56) 122 lines

Hello. I'm Craig Harris, and Judy Malloy suggested that I connect with
you all about Leonardo, Leonardo Electronic News, FineArt Forum,
Fine Art Science and Technology program, and perhaps a few comments
about my own work. I know only too well the difficulty of dealing
with a lot of text in this medium, so I will endeavor to be brief
and succinct. I apologize up front for the length, and I hope that
my attempt to be comprehensive will be informative and constructive.

First, the last of that list - a few introductory comments about me.
I am the Executive Director of Leonardo, the International Society
for the Arts, Sciences and Technology, where I am also the Director
of the Electronic Publishing Program. I am a composer and multimedia
artist, and have been involved deeply in computer music and network
personal communication (email/conferencing) since 1980. In my own
research I examine the creative process, and the impact of these
new technological resources as they apply to supporting creative
activities. My project "Configurable Space" is oriented on designing
future creative environments, examining how they might be used, and
what technological resources would be required.

My interests intersect well with the goals and projects of
Leonardo/ISAST. For those of you who are interested, I offer a bit
of history. Leonardo is the Journal of the International Society for
the Arts, Sciences and Technology. This publication has been around
for twenty-five years. The goals of the journal and the society are
oriented towards providing a forum for creative people to explore the
realm where art, science and technology converge. The focus is on the
way that artists respond to their environment, incorporating science
and available technologies into their creative activities. In addition
to the bimonthly journal, the society publishes a hard copy newsletter
Leonardo Currents; creates and publishes an electronic newsletter,
Leonardo Electronic News (Judy Malloy mentioned that, and I will
elaborate); distributes FineArt Forum, another electronic newsletter
that was mentioned in an earlier message; creates and distributes an
on-line and diskette database/archive; is starting a Leonardo
Publication Series with MIT Press (which will include multimedia
publications once we can solve the funding issue); participates in
symposia, festivals, and conferences.

We document and disseminate contemporary creative activities on an
international scale, and, in the process, hopefully contribute to human
development and communication. In 1988 Ray Lauzzana formed FineArt
Forum (FAF) as a mechanism for communication in cyberspace.
Leonardo/ISAST has been involved deeply in its development,
and distributes FAF on the internet. Judy Malloy, Nancy Nelson, Roger
Malina, Wim van der Plas, Susan Kirchman, and *many others have been
leading agents in the process. Please forgive my stopping there with
the listing, well short of many equally-important additional contributors,
the individuals who contribute and respond.
It is fitting at this time
to be summarizing these activities and sharing this with you all as part
of TISEA. It was at the First International Symposium on Electronic Arts
(FISEA) in 1988 when many of us converged in Holland to examine the
importance of using new technology to break down communication boundaries.

In the last several years, FineArt Forum has evolved substantially.
Its editors have experimented with everything from providing a forum
for dialogue to offering more crafted and editorially sculpted issues.
At all times, however, the character is a reflection of the community
which participates, and in that sense, it is certainly interactive, if
not always completely immediate.

One year ago it was decided to create Leonardo Electronic News, which
would offer a more editorially-directed focus. Leonardo Electronic News
became the forum for such things as Words on Works, which Judy Malloy
directs, consisting of collections of artists presenting windows into
their current and recent art works. FineArt Forum issues were created
by Nancy Nelson and guest editors, and the orientation reflects
the interests of the individual creating the issue. Paul Brown at
Mississippi State University is taking over the creation and development
of FineArt Forum (as of November 1, 1992). We can all look forward
to where he will take this. Leonardo will still distribute both
electronic newsletters gratis to any individual or organization with
connections to the internet. Interested parties should send mail to

The Fine Art Science Technology program is a compilation of individual
and organizations databases, a constantly-updated archive of material
which appeared in serial fashion in the hard copy and electronic
newsletters, and selected material from the Leonardo Journal. We
assemble detailed profiles of educational/research programs and
individuals, as well as provide a collection of bibliographies on a
variety of topics. FAST is installed on the Well on a subscription
basis, and is offered as a Leonardo/ISAST product on a Macintosh or
IBM disk. The contents of FAST are now being developed as the launching
hard copy publication of the Leonardo Book Series with MIT Press. We
are extremely interested in hearing more about all of your activities,
and this is an opportunity to get the word out to a wide and perhaps
different public. Again, send mail to and
indicate your interest.

Since Leonardo's activities span a variety of methods of communication
(verbal, hard copy, electronic, ...), we have had to think a lot about
bridging some of the gaps between connected an not-connected communities,
between more and less formal communication styles, between editorially-
focused and more dialog-oriented structures. We take the issue of
communication among people from different cultures with different levels
of access to electronic communication (from complete to none) extremely
seriously. We customize content and develop editorial direction in a
way which is natural to the delivery medium. At the same time,
we will still send hard copies of the electronic newsletters to
anybody who wants it and can afford the basic direct overhead costs.
In the same vein, the hard copy FAST resource will provide in single
paper volume that which is collected, assembled and distributed
electronically in serial form. This way even people in developing
countries/communities, people with limited access to new technologies,
can at least find out about what is going on. Then they can decide
where to set their sites.

In closing this all too long but hopefully useful contribution,
I have to applaud the originators of this conference activity,
and also applaud the contributors on the activities they
described. This is a marvelous and empowering activity, and I
look forward to hearing more about what is going on in the world.

Craig Harris
672 South Van Ness Avenue
San Francisco, CA 94110
(415) 431-7414

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#39 of 69: Eric S Theise (estheise) Thu Nov 12 '92 (00:36) 601 lines


Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#40 of 69: Eric S Theise (estheise) Thu Nov 12 '92 (00:42) 11 lines

The <hidden> response above contains the first batch of posts from
Arts Wire. To see it through the --More-- pager, type:

!extract vc 83 39 |more

It's after midnight, so I'm going to post the second batch of our
responses to the other systems.
So far there have been only two
USENET posts on alt.cyberspace (John Quarterman's call for participation
and one respondent saying it was a good idea).
Haven't heard from
ArtsNet or American Indian Telecom yet. Anna has her Internet access,
so hopefully we'll be reading her soon.

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#41 of 69: Barry Kort (kort) Thu Nov 12 '92 (07:24) 17 lines

Hello Craig, If the Leonardo Society ever wishes to operate an Electronic
Virtual Community over the Internet, please contact me (kort@well) and I will
put you in touch with people who could help you set it up.

The technology I am refering to is the MUSE (Multi-User Simulation
Environment), which is the topic of VC 12 , Internet 16, Internet 116, and
Internet 226.

Barry Kort
Consulting Scientist
Educational Technology Research
Cambridge MA

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#42 of 69: Judy Malloy (jmalloy) Thu Nov 12 '92 (15:54) 1 line

Sounds interesting - I'll go read about it soon.

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#43 of 69: John Coate (tex) Thu Nov 12 '92 (21:29) 19 lines

I don't remember if I said anything in here or not, but for many years I worked
here at the WELL and was the guy who coordinated all of these online projects
for the growing online arts community. I taught COL:FJT how to construct the
ACEN menus for example. Last year, I left the WELL to join what I thought was a
very exciting grass roots project in SF called 101 Online that is based on the
French Minitel terminal. Unfortunately, their funding fell apart and they laid
me off. One of the things that most bugs me about that happening is that I was
just starting to network artists together in SF who didn't have computers but
did have a need to be in touch for mutual support and contacts and all the good
stuff that happens here. I lectured at the SF Art Institute and was just
beginning to build excitment for this dream when I got put on hold so to speak.
but i did learn that the desire is there, esp in the younger artisist. they
just don't have much money. One nice thing about the minitel is that it's very
rugged..suitable to leave around a studio where you might spill things on it.
Cheap, rugged,a nd available. I even got an internet mail link going with it.
makes me mad that those French guys didn't let me continue the project. My goal
was nothing less that a communications renaissance in the arts community...and
the community as a whole. I'm still gonna do it somehow...

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#44 of 69: Judy Malloy (jmalloy) Fri Nov 13 '92 (04:58) 7 lines

Hi John - sounds like a great project - too bad it fell through - hope
something good turns up soon! Last day of the conference, time for breakfast
with old/new friends (I'm having raison toast and coffee), last minute
exchanges of addresses, information and ideas.....?


Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#45 of 69: Eric S Theise (estheise) Fri Nov 13 '92 (08:02) 77 lines

Just because the physical conference ends today doesn't mean our virtual panel
has to end. One of the amazing things about centralized conferencing systems
like The WELL (and not like USENET) is that new users continue to discover
conferences and topics until the time that the host retires the topic, which
might never happen! So someone reading this next week, next month, next year
might come across this and intentionally or accidentally revive the topic,
dragging in whoever's currently here. We may be old-cyberfarts by then, we may
have moved on, but the panel will continue random walking through time;
starting, stopping, informing.

I'll throw out a few comments on the multi-system aspect of this panel. I think
the comments about the discussion here on The WELL are very interesting. The
fact that people have focused on 'I'm doing *this*, and you can see it *here*'
makes me think that we're a relatively mature artistic virtual community. We're
aware of the wonderful possibilities in cyberspace, but we're all working
intently and it takes something like this panel to bring people together to
talk about what they're doing. Reminds me of a trip to Seattle, a smaller and
in some senses newer city, where a filmmaker seemed likely to know about the
dance scene, a dancer the painting scene, a painter the poetry scene. I haven't
found that in San Francisco so much; it's more developed, there's more
structure, people seem more locked into their media.

On Arts Wire, a newer smaller system, the conversations seem more centered
around the possibilities and limitations of cyberspace, particularly a
text-based cyberspace. This has been discussed quite a bit here on The WELL
over the years, much of it before my time. It's interesting to watch the
conversation there, like watching a flash flood run down an existing gulley;
the overall flow is the same, but the water often takes paths that I wouldn't
expect from my preconceptions about the topography.

We haven't seen anything from ArtsNet, the Australian conferencing system that
must be in place at the conference. Is it too new? Are the problems technical?
Australians are known for their online chattiness on USENET and IRC, so --
pardon the stereotype -- I can't imagine it's because they're not saying

The USENET discussion on alt.cyberspace never caught on. I'd say that because
USENET is distributed, not centralized, the 'community' didn't feel any
responsibility to keep it going. Typing this I realize that I have problems
with the notion of 'USENET community'. Some newsgroups feel like communities.
In retrospect, I bet if this discussion had been launched on sci.virtual-worlds
it would've turned out completely different. That's an example of a moderated
newsgroup with a sense of community, purpose, and personality. Talking about an
overall 'USENET community' is like talking about a 'telephone community'; sure,
telephone users have a shared sense of how to use their system, a sense of the
boundaries of what's acceptable on the system, and they don't want the system
to go away. But is that enough for Community?

And then there's American Indian Telecommunications. I talked with Randy Ross
by phone last night, and got the sense that the posts from here and Arts Wire
were getting through the UUCP/FidoNet jungle, and that people were reading
them. But I don't know that any followup discussion is taking place. AIT is a
new system, fighting big challenges in terms of technology, appropriate
technology, and most importantly, the difficulties of moving a culture that's
short on words, long on gesture, intonation, and physical presence into ASCII.
It feels inappropriate for me to say anymore, I don't know anymore. FWIW.
Steve, I'm wondering about the dissemination aspects of Apple's Library of
Tomorrow ... could you flesh that out for us?

And Judy, a little more about the experimental film/video advocacy work. At the
next meeting of the group I'm expecting to do a short intro on how computer
mediated communication can be used, and I'm planning to talk about the
following types of systems: stand alone, free BBSs; commercial, networked BBSs
and conferencing systems (SF Net, The WELL, Arts Wire); and distributed
conferencing systems (Fido, USENET). I'd actually like to demo all of these
using large screen projection, but there probably won't be time. I bet there
will be interest ...

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#46 of 69: Judy Malloy (jmalloy) Sat Nov 14 '92 (06:08) 22 lines

Yeah - I was interested by the difference in the refreshingly issue oriented
Arts Wire feed and what we were/are doing. Enjoyed the Arts Wire discussion -
kind of like hearing snatches of conversation carrying over the fence from the
neighbors backyard. On the Well, our age is both a plus and a handicap I think.
There is so much been said and so much is remembered that it is a wonderful
shared background but at the same time when it comes to something like talking
about electronic conferencing systems, I don't quite feel like saying things
over again, and I'm conscious of the other topics that have already covered
these things in so much detail - Like living in Berkeley where there are
actually less political discussions than one would expect because it's a given
that a lot of us think the same thing. Here in New Hampshire, by contrast,
everytime I go into the store, there's some kind of discussion going on about
what's in the news. Of course a lot of them are like the one I heard yesterday
in which two men (and believe it or not a woman) were all saying that the
problem with this country is that woman don't know their place - planning to
avoid that store for a few days as I was unable to let that pass without saying
anything. Since that's the only store for miles I'm grateful powdered creamer.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#47 of 69: Judy Malloy (jmalloy) Sat Nov 14 '92 (06:10) 3 lines

uh I meant I'm grateful *for* powdered creamer - reminds me of all that bad
info about spam and powdered creamer....

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#48 of 69: grateful powdered creamer (estheise) Sat Nov 14 '92 (11:13) 5 lines

In the finest WELL tradition ... thanks for the pseud! Powdered creamer in New
England? I thought y'all were legendary for your cows up in that part of the
country? Or is that just part of the Ben and Jerry's disinformation scam?

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#49 of 69: Edward Vielmetti (emv) Sat Nov 14 '92 (13:31) 7 lines

er, you sell usenet takes a stedy working of the nets to make things
happen, typically the news moves slow between communities because there's so
much of it, it might take a year or two of effort (preparing faqs, posting
regularly, cross posting stuff in) befor you have a sense of "community". but
it does happen. (a year or two is perhpas an exaggeration, but you should get
the point...things don't just takes effort)

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#50 of 69: Judy Malloy (jmalloy) Mon Nov 16 '92 (05:11) 11 lines


well actually it's Vermont where all the cows are. In this area of New
Hampshire there are a lot of sheep, but grocery stores are few and far between.
That's why we need artificial creamer. New Hampshire excitement: It's 5 degrees
out and I burned my hand standing too close to the wood stove. Yesterday a
neighbor showed me his wood splitter.

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#51 of 69: Matisse Enzer (matisse) Mon Nov 16 '92 (19:17) 1 line

ayuh, a woodsplitter come in handy in those parts.

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#52 of 69: Judy Malloy (jmalloy) Wed Nov 18 '92 (05:26) 8 lines

6 inches of snow here - very nice but can anyone suggest somewhere in the
Phoenix Arizona area that I could get an internet address from which I could
telnet to the WELL and the Berkeley computers?


Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#53 of 69: Kathleen Creighton (casey) Wed Nov 18 '92 (06:29) 23 lines

No public Internet--two of the following are available for uucp.

04/92 602-649-9099^ telesys Mesa AZ 12/24/96 24 SCO Xenix 386;
Telebit T-3000 V.32bis/PEP;
Major Usenet Feed Source;
TeleSys-II Unix Based BBS (No Fee) login: bbs;
Software Archive On-line;
Shell Accounts available for access to USENET, email and full news feeds.
Contact: asuvax!telesys!kreed or uucp-anon: nuucp NOPWD

12/90 602-941-2005^ xroads Phoenix AZ 12/24 24 Motorola VME1121,
UNIX 5.2, Crossroads BBS, Fee $30/yr + $.50/.25 (call)
prime (evenings)/non-prime, USENET news, multi-chat, online games,
movie reviews, adventure games, dos unix/xenix files for dload, multi lines

05/92 602-991-5952 aa7bq Scottsdale AZ 3/12/24 24
Sun 4, SunOS 4.1.2, NB bbs system, 900 meg online,
Primarily Ham Radio related articles from usenet
(, complete Callsign Database, Radio and
scanner modifications, frequency listings, shell access by permission,
No fees, Free classifie ads, Local e-mail only. Login: bbs (8N1) or
Login: callsign for callsign database only. Don't use MNP!
For additional info contact Fred.Lloyd@West.Sun.COM

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#54 of 69: Kathleen Creighton (casey) Wed Nov 18 '92 (07:14) 4 lines

BTW, I got the above from the nixpub list, which is public access Usenet sites
which may or may not be on the Internet. There's a separate document called
PDIAL which lists public access *Internet* sites only and area code 602 isn't on it.

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#55 of 69: Judy Malloy (jmalloy) Wed Nov 18 '92 (15:05) 1 line

Thanks Kathleen - much appreciated!

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#56 of 69: Barry Kort (kort) Wed Nov 18 '92 (15:25) 9 lines

Judy, contact Greg Swan or Billie Hughes at Maricopa Community College. They
are on the Internet ( and,
they run a Muse there (on Port 4228), and they are in contact with us at
MicroMuse through a ListServ Mailing List,
Maricopa has public access Internet terminals in the Library in the Commons.
Many Phoenicians connect to MicroMuse from there.

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#57 of 69: Kathleen Creighton (casey) Wed Nov 18 '92 (23:14) 2 lines

It *does*? That's pretty advanced. Where is Maricopa Community College located?

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#58 of 69: Barry Kort (kort) Thu Nov 19 '92 (07:38) 3 lines

MCC is in Phoenix (or perhaps a suburb). I don't know the exact location within
the Phoenix metro area. It should be in the phone book, though.

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#59 of 69: Kathleen Creighton (casey) Thu Nov 19 '92 (08:25) 1 line

Greater Phoenix is a pretty big place, which is why I asked.

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#60 of 69: Judy Malloy (jmalloy) Thu Nov 19 '92 (15:32) 1 line

sounds good... thanks!!

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#61 of 69: Eric S Theise (estheise) Fri Jan 8 '93 (13:39) 114 lines

Anna sent this out to the coordinators of the Cultures in Cyberspace project.
It's been in my mail box for a while, and I thought I'd post it here. It's on
the long side, but it's an interesting recap of the TISEA conference.

Anna writes:

Before we enter into 93.... Many thanks to American Indian Telecommunications
(especially George Baldwin, Anne Fallis & Randy Ross), Judy Malloy, Joe
Matuzak, John Quarterman, suephil, Eric Theise, as well as John Harkin at the
WELL, Scott Burns at TMN, and Ian Peters and Pegasus staff for your assistance
and participation in Cultures in Cyberspace!!!!

It turned out rather differently than planned, given the USENET connectivity
problems we ran into. Creating a USENET newsgroup was a first time event for
Pegasus, and somewhere along the line our communications broke down with those
who handle USENET distribution. This has certainly been a valuable lesson for
me, and I hope for the rest of you as well, about the diversity that exists
across networked countries and systems. It also raises interesting questions as
to how groups whose specialty is not network technology can have access to it
and control over it for their own of the issues I'd hoped we would
discuss in Cultures in Cyberspace.

For those of you who didn't attend TISEA physically... it was a stimulating and
inspiring event, the first time I've been to an electronic arts conference that
addressed issues of the cultural and social implications of new technologies.
These included questions such as:

* are electronic technologies, evolved out of Anglo-European cultures, yet one
more step in Western cultural imperialism? What do they mean for cultures, such
as those of the Australian aboriginals, in which meaning and identity is so
connected to the earth?

* an Ethiopian electronic artist who spends part of his time in the US and part
in Ethiopia told of other Ethiopians thinking he's "sold out" to Western
technoculture. He pointed out that these people tend to drive Western cars, and
dress Western, etc.

* racism and cultural equity in general was questioned and criticized, in
particular the lack of communication among different cultures.

* would technologies and interfaces created by women be different than those
created by men? what is the status of women in cyberspace? what can and should
it be?

* what is the justification for using such expensive tools (this in particular
addressed artists work with virtual reality technology) for creative
expression? does the technology allow for cultural and social justice in a way
that traditional artistic media do not? does "aesthetic" investigation stand
strong enough on its own to justify the expense of the medium?

* what do electronic tools (viewed as prosthetics) imply about the future of
physical human evolution. are we leaving our bodies? will we pull our
electronic prosthetics into our bodies? (a la nanotechnology).

The above is just a quick sampling. TISEA was held in 12 sites, in various
locations across Sydney, and I felt as tho I saw very little inbetween my own
presentations. suephil, if you want to add anything, feel free to! And those of
you who want to be emailed a copy of the program, send me an email request.
There were several attendees representing computer networking efforts and
projects in various countries. suephil were kind enough to organize a dinner
for us to discuss our various situations and to explore connectivity among
ourselves. Participants included: Yoshiyuke Abe (Japan, where artists have no
online access, language is also a problem since they don't tend to speak
English); suephil (ArtsNet, Australia, where telephone lines stretch equally to
rural and urban environments thanks to state monopoly!, but where full access
to the Internet is much less available to the general public than in the
US...Pegasus just made telnet available when I was there); Scot Art and Jason
Gee (System X, Australia, a free BBS for electronic artists and musicians, that
carries USENET groups and local discussions, and offers Internet email
addresses for a suggested donation); Ivan Pope (ArtNet UK, a BBS. Ivan has
Internet connections through his work...); and myself, Arts Wire, US. Those of
us who attended expressed interest in developing ongoing connections among our

I have continued to receive expressions of interest in the Cultures in
Cyberspace discussion continuing across systems. I am considering creating a
new newsgroup for this purpose, if many of us would like to focus on such a
discussion. What do you all think?

Other post-TISEA activity includes work between Dakota BBS and Arts Wire to
develop ongoing connections via FidoNet.

Any of you who are interested in working to develop a network project for
FISEA93 (to be held in Minneapolis Nov 9-13), please let me know! I'd like to
collaborate, and for 93, create a stronger network presence at the
International Symposium on Electronic Art. The deadline for submissions ranges
from April 15 for workshops & courses, to May 15 for performance/concert, to
June 15 for art show/electronic theatre. For further info about FISEA93,
contact Roman Verostko, Minneapolis College of Art & Design, 2501 Stevens Ave.,
South, Minneapolis, MN 55404-4343 USA, tel: 1.612.874.3754, fax:
1.612.874.3732, email: I met Roman at TISEA and he is excited
about art networking.

Best wishes to all of you for the new year,

Anna Couey

ps. if any of you are interested in posting this on your systems, feel free to,
tho I'd ask that you delete the paragraph about reimbursement for connect fees
;-) thanks!

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#62 of 69: Arthur R. McGee (amcgee) Mon Sep 13 '93 (18:32) 102 lines

The latest versions of the following lists are now available:

* (1) Internet/BITnet mailing lists and news services that focus on African,
African-American, African-Caribbean or African-Latin people, culture, and
issues. (Up to date as of SEPTEMBER 11, 1993)
* (2) Usenet newsgroups that focus on African, African-American,
African-Caribbean or African-Latin people, culture, and issues. (Up to date as
of SEPTEMBER 07, 1993)
* (3) Black/African run or Black/African oriented Bulletin Board
Systems/Services(BBS) in North America. (Up to date as of SEPTEMBER 08, 1993)
* (4) Black/African/Development oriented online information sites
(Dialup/FTP/Gopher/Telnet). (Up to date as of SEPTEMBER 07, 1993)
* In addition to that mentioned above, each list contains(usually in the second
half) resources that mainly deal with the following:
* (1) International/Sustainable Development (2) Indigenous/Native Peoples
(3) Social/Progressive Activism (4) Ethnic/Intercultural Relations
* Please let me know of any updates, additions, corrections or suggestions that
you might have.
* Thank you very much.
* Peace.
* The absolute latest versions of all of my lists and pointers are always
available via anonymous FTP from in directory pub/amcgee.
* If you only have access to email, then you can use FTPmail to do essentially
the same thing. Send a message to this address:
* With these specifications:
* Subject: <blank> Body of Message: help <carriage return> quit
* Or to this address:
* With these specifications:
* Body of Message: help
* In either case a help file will be returned to you explaining how to use the
FTPmail facility.
* The absolute latest versions of all the Black/African related lists are
always available by sending email to or fingering the following:
* Warning: all of the lists will come back to you as one concatenated file.
* Remember: the above address is NOT for correspondence. If you want anything
other than a list sent back to you, use the email addresses in my signature.
* The absolute latest versions of all the Black/African related lists are also
always available on the BDPA BAC BBS(1-707-552-3314) and on the Data Bits
Online BBS(1-213-295-6094) in the following files:
* BLACKBBS.MSG = BBS List AFRIMAIL.MSG = Internet/BITnet Mailing Lists
AFRINEWS.MSG = Usenet Newsgroups AFRISITE.MSG = Online Information Sites
* Note: These naming conventions also hold true for the FTP archive.
* Note: The lists may also be available as bulletin items, so check the
bulletin menu on each system for descriptive listings.
* * Art "Rambo" McGee * *
Internet: [] []
Peacenet: []
BDPA BAC: [1-707-552-3314] to [Arthur McGee]
Data Bits Online: [1-213-295-6094] to [Arthur McGee]
Compuserve: [72377,1351]
Voice: [1-310-320-BYTE]
* * "The revolution will not be televised, but the proceedings will be
available online." ;->
* (c)1993 Arthur R. McGee & Associates(AKA Africans Around the World). ;-)

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#63 of 69: Howard Rheingold (hlr) Mon Sep 13 '93 (21:32) 3 lines

Art McGee! Welcome to the WELL. Please feel free to start topics, jump right in
to topics. The virtual communities conference is your playground.

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#64 of 69: Astral Cruiser (palenoue) Thu Sep 16 '93 (01:18) 2 lines

Now this sounds like a lot of fun...

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#65 of 69: Arthur R. McGee (amcgee) Fri Sep 17 '93 (22:28) 3 lines

Thanks Howard. I appreciate the hospitality. :-) Art

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#66 of 69: Howard Rheingold (hlr) Wed Sep 29 '93 (11:04) 32 lines

This might be a good direction for this topic to drift, since it appears to be
about cultures in cyberspace. I will obtain and read this sooner or later. If
anybody else reads it and has comments, let us know what you think.

Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 00:48:20 -0400
Sender: Computers and Society ARPA Digest <COMSOC-L@AUVM.BITNET>
From: Michael Hauben <>
Organization: Columbia University Department of Computer Science
Subject: Pointer to "The Net and Netizens" Paper

I just posted a paper about the effect the net has on people's lives. My
findings are very interesting and are available in the following newsgroups:
news.misc, news.future, comp.misc, comp.mail.misc, soc.culture.usa,
alt.amateur-comp, alt.culture-usenet, alt.culture.internet,
alt.folklore.computers, and alt.cyberspace. I also uploaded it to a ftp site.
It is available at in the directory
/doc/misc/acn/papers/netizen --

Michael Hauben

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#67 of 69: Ralph E. Melcher (spore) Sat Mar 12 '94 (23:32) 19 lines

During the recent election in Santa Fe I attended an internet meeting at which
someone suggested that the most important political issue in our city was
"bandwidth!" Not real estate. . .not tourists. . .but bandwidth. I thought
about it and realized that as long as we remain out on the virtual edge of
cyberspace without satisfactory connections we will be driven more and more in
the direction of the kind of development that has made a Disneyland out of
places like Carmel, California. On the other hand, an alternative to the choice
between factories and tourists could be a substantial cottage industry of
creative people involved in an international art scene via telecommunications.

At any rate, Debbie Jaramillo, representing the neighborhoods, the traditional
people, the less than wealthy, running against the BIG money of developers
and real estate interests, won handsomely, and she even underspent her budget! A
local paper compared her campaign to Sonya Bragia in The Milagro Beanfield War. . .
an accurate comparison. Viva!

Sorry for the digression. . .but celebration is in order!

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#68 of 69: a splintered floor, well danced (gail) Sun Mar 13 '94 (01:35) 2 lines

Sounds like great opportunities! Are many of the local artists hooked up yet?

Topic 83 [vc]: Cultures in Cyberspace; A Virtual Panel
#69 of 69: David Gault (dgault) Thu Mar 17 '94 (15:35) 4 lines

Hey Carmel may be Disneyland, Santa Fe on the other hand is where three
cultures meet: L.A., Dallas, and New York...!

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