Inkwell: Authors and Artists
Topic 105: Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #201 of 318: Paul Bissex (biscuit) Wed 14 Mar 01 17:51
permalink #201 of 318: Paul Bissex (biscuit) Wed 14 Mar 01 17:51
I loved the bit in the book describing a system for tagging the birds with transmitters and having individual windmills shut down when the birds got within a certain range. This was for eagles or condors or something large and endangered IIRC. Was it ever implemented?
inkwell.vue.105
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #202 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Wed 14 Mar 01 22:30
permalink #202 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Wed 14 Mar 01 22:30
First, the avian issue began in the Altamont, for very specific reasons. The population, particularly raptors, is completely hemmed in by civilization on all sides, is fueled by abundant feed, including ground squirrels that are no longer poisoned there, so becomes quite focused. The issue does not arise to anywhere near the same degree in other areas, with the obvious exception of windplants built right in the major flyway between Africa and Spain. Second, Altamont has a predominant buildout of downwind turbines on lattice towers, in other words, perches. The far more prevalent tubular towers, found on virtually all modern windmills, provide no perches. Third, while i do not question the desire on the part of some government employees to strongly protect rare and endangered species, which i fully support, i question the context entirely. Some of them seem to enjoy the notoriety they would otherwise be unable to obtain, and thus they continue to place ridiculous obstacles in the way of a technology which is trying to prevent human folly, even death. And where are their voices about the killing done on a far worse level by fuels which try to compete with wind? Fourth, put it all in context, it's a minor problem in the Altamont and much less elsewhere, but it's nothing compared to the destruction from oil spills, stack effluents, tailgate emissions, and leftover split atoms. The wind industry has been diligent to the extreme in addressing an issue which should pale beside true issues. (This is not to say the industry response has been perfect, but certainly better than good, perhaps even diligent to the extreme.) As to Native elders, eagles and windpower, tune in next post, when i might be persuaded tell some wonderful stories. Did anyone notice San Francisco plans to purchase 70 MWs in the Altamont, and study the ridges near Hetch-Hetchy?
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #203 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Wed 14 Mar 01 22:34
permalink #203 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Wed 14 Mar 01 22:34
And please, let's hear from the Autobahn Society why windmills should be banned and oil tankers should continue.
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #204 of 318: Fuzzy Logic (phred) Thu 15 Mar 01 01:09
permalink #204 of 318: Fuzzy Logic (phred) Thu 15 Mar 01 01:09
Actually after doing the round-and-round with Enron on Tejon they came up with this quite reasonable statement in 1999: http://www.audubon.org/news/release/enron.html
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #205 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Thu 15 Mar 01 07:39
permalink #205 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Thu 15 Mar 01 07:39
The radio-tagged idea was in relation to condors and was never implemented because the proposed project was killed. Teh bird issue help topple Kenetech and is a convenient target for pro-nuclear zealots who want to ding renewables as a way of building support for nuclear. I'm writing a piece today for the SF Chronicle on why nuclear is not a solution to the current supply crunch -- even if these large, centralized sources of power are not as bad as coal plants. But I want to hear some of Randy's stories, which were inadvertently cut from the conclusion of my book. What of the issue of a lack of eagle feathers for Native Americans to perform their magic? What do the elders think of this issue of eagle kills?
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #206 of 318: Linda Castellani (castle) Thu 15 Mar 01 14:52
permalink #206 of 318: Linda Castellani (castle) Thu 15 Mar 01 14:52
Conference rooms are evidently hazardous to birds as evidenced by the pigeon that slammed so hard into our (one-story building) window that it left an impression of itself on the glass. Next, we learned that squirrels eat dead pigeons, but I digress... Clearly we should also ban conference rooms.
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #207 of 318: 'Got To! (freeform) Thu 15 Mar 01 16:55
permalink #207 of 318: 'Got To! (freeform) Thu 15 Mar 01 16:55
But what is the answer to the bird problem??? It's still a felony to kill an endangered raptor regardless of the application. Big bad PG&E was hauled into court in the 70's because eagles were being electrocuted on the distribution lines. The settlement then was for PG&E to develop a "raptor construction" for raptor habitats, which has clearance between the conductors greater than the wing span of an eagle. I don't know about the pro-nuke zealots, but there are many sincere bird lovers that are supporting efforts to protect the birds. Unless the wind industry can come up with a solution, it will continue to be a ding against renewables. The problem will not go away by itself.
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #208 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Thu 15 Mar 01 17:52
permalink #208 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Thu 15 Mar 01 17:52
Yo! Phred. I should have said "Autobahn Societies" to more clearly state that i was metaphorically referring to all the enviromental groups who don't attack the real problems who have attacked windpower over the years. REgarding endangered species deaths: In the project i built, our permit did not require raptor protection on our collection lines. We installed them anyway at our expense, because it was the right thing to do. Still, a small number of eagles die over the years, no matter what we do. Eagles or other raptors also die from electrocution at Tesla substsation, the largest in the world, at the DWR substation which powers the California aqueduct, and other technological sites in the Altamont. We never hear about shutting down the water supply to Southern California, however. Some analysts figure the number of premature human deaths from power plants and vehicle exhaust to be 60,000 per year. Unlike the wind industry being tarred and feathered by the avian mortality issue there's no outcry about the "human mortality" issue. Remember, we don't see serious raptor problems except in the Altamont, and when the lattice towers are replaced, there will be a significant decrease in raptor collisions.
inkwell.vue.105
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #209 of 318: 'Got To! (freeform) Fri 16 Mar 01 06:55
permalink #209 of 318: 'Got To! (freeform) Fri 16 Mar 01 06:55
That's reasonable. Removing or replacing the lattice towers would at least mitigate the problem. When PG&E created a raptor construction for distribution lines, it certainly didn't eliminate bird deaths. It did significantly reduce the numbers in areas with eagle populations, like the hills around Marysville. From my perspective, the wind industry isn't alone in being "tarred and feathered" over issues over which there is no easy solution. It's difficult to identify the real issues once the media and public opinion come into play. But I can't agree with the statement about "no outcry aout the human mortality issue." Remember the media-fueled hysteria about PCB and EMF? I've dealt with utility customers who were deathly afraid of both PCB and EMF, and everything they knew about both issues had been learned on the evening news.
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #210 of 318: Fuzzy Logic (phred) Fri 16 Mar 01 20:32
permalink #210 of 318: Fuzzy Logic (phred) Fri 16 Mar 01 20:32
Now here's a new twist. I am not sure I believe in conspiracies or evil plans, but it seems like wind is going to take the fall if the utilities go into bankruptcy. By maneuvering to avoid making payments to small wind generators and other QFs ("qualifying facilities"), Edison and PG&E have conveniently focused intense pressure on very small economic players who may have no choice, from a "prudent manager" point of view, to move forward with a bankruptcy petition. http://www.latimes.com/news/state/20010316/t000022987.html
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #211 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Sat 17 Mar 01 10:57
permalink #211 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Sat 17 Mar 01 10:57
The president of CORAM, Brian O'Sullivan, is a former president of the American Wind Energy Association. His actions are likely the result of 17 years of Edison intransigence as well as the current financial impasse. I'm pleased that he has the courage to take strong action. The LA Times article states that QFs provide 27% of Cali energy. Remember that wind is but a small portion of QFs, providing only 1%. I applaud Brian's action, and trust it underscores the amount of deception in the current situation. Perhaps it will be a step toward shedding light on this complex matter.
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #212 of 318: John Payn (satyr) Sat 17 Mar 01 13:31
permalink #212 of 318: John Payn (satyr) Sat 17 Mar 01 13:31
<scribbled by satyr Sat 17 Mar 01 14:24>
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #213 of 318: windblowne (satyr) Sat 17 Mar 01 14:28
permalink #213 of 318: windblowne (satyr) Sat 17 Mar 01 14:28
<212> was about a CNN report on alternative sources of energy, but I couldn't find anything about it on cnn.com so it seemed better to scribble than to leave possibly erroneous information posted. But it sounded interesting, so if you happen to see the announcement, please pass along the details.
inkwell.vue.105
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #214 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Sat 17 Mar 01 17:18
permalink #214 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Sat 17 Mar 01 17:18
Howdy folks. Happy St. Patty's Day. No green beer yet, but that could change. I think my book provides a good balance on the bird issue. All of the early data came from the Altamont Pass, and it happened to be the worst case scenario. Still, there are incredibly amounts of raptors at the Altamont. A story published last year in the SF Examiner said population levels of virtually all species was way up in the East Bay. The story didn't even mention the wind farms as a threat. I do think it probably was a good idea not to release the Condors there. I can't wait to go to the Pinnacles and see one there!
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #215 of 318: Fuzzy Logic (phred) Sat 17 Mar 01 17:29
permalink #215 of 318: Fuzzy Logic (phred) Sat 17 Mar 01 17:29
Randy, I'm not following the math here. In a December news release, shown below, Tom Gray says that California has 1600 MW of wind capacity generating 1.5% of the state's power (i.e, something like 550 average megawatts out of 40,000 statewide, the remaining increment being from regional imports from the Northwest and the Southwest). Of course, as Tom notes, 1.5% isn't trifling, it's what San Francisco uses. So, if all wind comes under QF arrangements, that would be about 5% of all QF power. Or else a lot of wind isn't QF anymore -- maybe you could elaborate on this. http://www.awea.org/news/news001222ces.html
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #216 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Sat 17 Mar 01 20:12
permalink #216 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Sat 17 Mar 01 20:12
...Why i no longer believe in stats. Even if they weren't all bullshit, no one remembers them the next day anyway. At it's peak, wind delivered 1.5% Cali energy. Now down to about 1% with aging plant retirements. At it's peak, Cali was approx 5% of QFs, as Fred noted. Now down to about 3+% of QFs, or 1% of the state. Main point, there ain't enough wind, or solar, or conservation. We all know that. They all know that. Problem? If you ask Dick Cheney, and he answered honestly, he would say, "you lost, we won, we like our cash flow, go fuck off." What he doesn't realize is we won the hearts and minds game. We also have sanity, intelligence, and the desire to consider the needs of future generations on our side. He has martial law. This Cali battle is only the tip of the iceberg. It's about to get really serious, this is only a skirmish.
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #217 of 318: David Gans (tnf) Sun 18 Mar 01 13:23
permalink #217 of 318: David Gans (tnf) Sun 18 Mar 01 13:23
KATHLEEN FROM POINT ARENA writes: Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 14:02:52 -0800 To: inkwell-hosts@well.com From: Kathleen York <jazzbird@mcn.org> Subject: Windmills and Birds Peter, this is Kathleen from Point Arena. Has anyone ever tried using the red and silver metallic tape that cherry growers use? The birds think it is fire and stay away. Why aren't windmill enclosed in wire cages like fans and would that help protect the birds? Our town's prospects for building our city wind farm has been helped by the fact that Virginia Strom- Martin is our Assebly Representative and as you know she is in favor of projects like ours. By the way, the proposed motto for our power company is- POWER TO THE PEOPLE! Kathleen, jazzbird@mcn.org
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #218 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Mon 19 Mar 01 10:08
permalink #218 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Mon 19 Mar 01 10:08
I get the question about cages and turbine blades a lot. It isn't very practical and the cages would hinder power production and be a logistical problem. There have been experiments with painting blades with a special kind of black piajt that birds see easily. Unfortunately, the plug was pulled on the research when Kenetech filed for bankruptcy. As I mentioned before, today's wind turbines are much more bird-friendly than some of the earlier designs. The key is to do research up-front identifying any sensitive populations BEFORE you build a wind farm. Power to the People is a great name!!! I've used it myself in a paper I drafted urging local governments to play a larger role in shaping energy strategies....
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #219 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Tue 20 Mar 01 20:39
permalink #219 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Tue 20 Mar 01 20:39
So the only guys who haven't been paid in this crisis are the renewable generators -- the ones who first volunteered to reduce their charges....what does this say about our political system?
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #220 of 318: Kathleen York (jonl) Wed 21 Mar 01 08:09
permalink #220 of 318: Kathleen York (jonl) Wed 21 Mar 01 08:09
Email from Kathleen York: Peter, As an outsider looking in on your industry, the bird kill issue is huge. This Monday on an NPR show on the energy crisis, the bird issue was used effectively by the pro- fossil fuel guest to say that wind was not a good option. Has anyone tried putting a very minimalistic structure around each windmill? It could be like an modern art installation with say four posts with red and silver metal tape hung vertically designed so they can twist and mimic the bird scare tape? We have huge bird populations here in Point Arena and we will be a perfect labratory to work on the bird kill problem. We invite any windsmiths who would like to work on this issue to contact us. Maybe we can test that black paint you mentioned. Kathleen York, Power To The People, email jazzbird@mcn.org
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #221 of 318: Paul Bissex (biscuit) Wed 21 Mar 01 08:56
permalink #221 of 318: Paul Bissex (biscuit) Wed 21 Mar 01 08:56
That bit about fossil lobbyists bad-mouthing wind makes me ill. What was the bird death toll of Valdez? A quick web serch turns up numbers from 35,000 to several hundred thousand.
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #222 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Wed 21 Mar 01 16:52
permalink #222 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Wed 21 Mar 01 16:52
Does anyone read the posts in this discussion? How much have we addressed the avian issue? Do people still think there are no birds or environmental protectors in Germany, Denmark, Spain, Greece, england, Ireland, Netherlands, Minnesota, Iowa, Texas, Colorado, New York, Pennsylvania, Tehachapi, San Gorgonio? Though i'm turning blue, a type of turbine and tower manufactured in the Altamont Pass by a company that no longer exists has caused a minor problem in one wind resource area. The rest of the world has no problem with windpower, including Native Elder protectors of eagles. The problem is, power plants kill people. Please america, wake up. You're being lied to by your leaders, you're being manipulated because of your addiction to fossil fuels, and the rest of the industrial world is laughing at you, when they're not angry. Power plants kill people. 1.9 million per year worldwide, according to NRDC, and i'll bet my career that's conservative.
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #223 of 318: Linda Castellani (castle) Wed 21 Mar 01 18:37
permalink #223 of 318: Linda Castellani (castle) Wed 21 Mar 01 18:37
Well...okay, I'll bite. How did power plants kill that many people?
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #224 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Wed 21 Mar 01 20:50
permalink #224 of 318: Alpha 10 (rmt) Wed 21 Mar 01 20:50
First, the correct stat is 1.9 million people per year, but not worldwide, just in China alone. And the stat is from that bastion of environmental activism, the World Bank. (Earth Odyssey, Mark Hertsgaard, a heroic journey into the heart of the world's problems, and a few solutions.) Here in the US NRDC estimated 60,000 premature deaths per year. Fred will have to check me here, but i believe the predominant killer is particulates, particularly the small ones, less than 2.5 micrometers, which can't be scrubbed at present, though mercury, sulphers and other joyous substances play a role. i believe the majority of deaths are from various lung diseases. When some jerk on NPR talks about windmills and birds, where are the thousands of callers reminding everyone about the lakes and forests of the northeast, dead or dying from coal and oil plants in the midwest? Biscuit brought up the Valdez, a very apt comparison. But it's worse... what will the world think when the entire remaining Ogoni tribe in Columbia commits suicide to protest Occidental Petroleum drilling for oil, as they've threatened. On the glass half full side, the corrupt forces of conventional energy wouldn't be focused so hard at making the bird issue stick as a meme if we weren't winning. The golden age of renewable energy, a sustainable future, is here for the taking, possibly for the last time. america's hitting with two strikes, and a poor batting average. So if we want this future, it probably means a few hours out of everyone's week every week, doing something to grab the golden solar ring.
inkwell.vue.105
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Peter Asmus - Reaping the Wind, and special guest Randy Tinkerman
permalink #225 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Fri 23 Mar 01 07:47
permalink #225 of 318: Peter H. Asmus (spacedebris) Fri 23 Mar 01 07:47
Pbviously, Randy has little patience for the bird issue. I agree that problem has been overblown, but I also beleive that well-meaning bird watchers are genuine in their concern. When someone hears a stat about X amount of eagles killed per year, the numbers are not in context. In terms of Point Arena, I'm not sure what scale of project Kathleen is talking about. A few turbines will not be a threat to bird species. Most of the larger machines today move so slowly that even the dumbest pigeon could probably escape harm. And folks that put up small wind turbines also don't ahve much to worry about. The chances of a bird strike are tiny -- and not much larger than a bird stiking a TV antenna or similar structure. There has been a lot of useful work on birds and wind turbines. Environmentalists need to be educated about this issue so that we can build the broadest base of support for wind and all renewables. Paint, sound, types of towers, speed of rotor, are all factors that can reduce mortality. With the global climate change, wind energy has to be part of the solution, if not the primary intitial response. Randy is right in proving some context. For the nuclear and fossil industry to bash wind over birds is completely misleading. Monitoring of all of the recent wind farms that have gone in the ground in Minnesota reveal no problem whatsoever. The myth of the bird kill issue as a major problem for new development needs to be debunked -- but the wind industry also needs to be sensitive to the views of well-meaning people who are naturalists. These folks eyes need to be opened to the alternatives we have. I think once all of the facts are on the table, we can all agree that wind, and other renewables, are the only way.
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