inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #326 of 376: Dave Zimmer (zimmerdave) Wed 3 Jul 02 08:05
    
I agree there, David. "The Suite" is a marvel ... but, upon further
reflection, I would still go with with my initial impulses: "Wooden
Ships" (electric) and "Helplessly Hoping" (acoustic). Narrowing to one
song that defines CSN is tough! 
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #327 of 376: tambourine verde (barb-albq) Wed 3 Jul 02 08:53
    
Then there's Deja Vu.
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #328 of 376: Dan Marsh (dam) Wed 3 Jul 02 09:35
    
I finished the book yesterday.  I have the first edition and obviously now
the update.  On the whole, Dave, your book is a wonderful read about an
extraordinary group of musicians.

A question, did you leave out the gory details (for the most part) of
Crosby's addiction?

I think the fact that the three of these guys have all had their ups and
downs but still care enough about each other to wade through all the
bullshit and continue to make great music!
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #329 of 376: Gerry Feeney (gerry) Wed 3 Jul 02 09:53
    
I've been lurking here, and enjoying it.  I'm looking forward to
reading the book, too.

"Wooden Ships" and "Helplessly Hoping."  Yes.  And "See the Changes"
and "In My Dreams," too.  And, high on my list is "Guinnevere."  Oddly
enough, when I first heard it, I was disappointed because I was
expecting to hear the CSN version of Donovan's "Guinevere" (Sunshine
Superman LP), thinking it was the same song.  But then I recognized the
beauty of CSN's "Guinnevere," and it's been one my favorites ever
since.  

Sorry, can't pick just one.  Corny as it sounds, you might have to do
a medley.   ;-)
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #330 of 376: "First you steal a bicycle...." (rik) Wed 3 Jul 02 10:53
    
I'll go with Wooden Ships.    It was the first tune I heard off the album
and it blew me away.
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #331 of 376: Dave Zimmer (zimmerdave) Wed 3 Jul 02 15:57
    
>A question, did you leave out the gory details (for the most part) of
Crosby's addiction?

Yes, Dan, I chose not to go into the gory details at the time (early
'80s) out of respect for David. When he was on the other side of his
addiction several years later, Croz, himself, went into those details
in his autobiography. I still have no regrets about handling it in this
manner. I also have no regrets about NOT delving into Stephen's
"demons." Exploring the music and their creative lives was my primary
goal. Am happy you enjoyed the original book and updated edition.
Thanks.

Good choices, Gerry and Rik. Still waiting for Steve "digaman" to
weigh in ...

Well, WELL folks, I'm heading "down the shore" here in Jersey in about
20 minutes, and will be "off-line" until Sunday night (July 7).  Hope
the discussions will carry on without me ... stay well and safe for the
4th weekend.

 
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #332 of 376: Dave Zimmer (zimmerdave) Wed 3 Jul 02 15:58
    
And, yes, "Deja Vu" is an "otherworldly" CSN song, too, Barb ... ;-)
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #333 of 376: Mary Eisenhart (marye) Wed 3 Jul 02 16:02
    
Happy 4th, Dave!
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #334 of 376: tambourine verde (barb-albq) Wed 3 Jul 02 17:00
    
Of course Radio Free Santa Fe just played Carry On/Questions on their
5pm drive-time special and, having jacked the volume up, I thought of
what a pure example that one is too! Happy fourth everyone.
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #335 of 376: Steve Silberman (digaman) Thu 4 Jul 02 19:08
    
I think you're spot-on about Wooden Ships, Dave.

My dark horse choice is the version of "Taken At All" on the box set.
All acoustic, 4 voices, Stephen and Neil pickin' and singin', the whole 
beast in one room, really there together, sitting down and making
a cathedral with their voices.  If you were on a desert island with CSNY, 
this is what they could do.  It's the realest and fullest foursome track.
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #336 of 376: Dave Zimmer (zimmerdave) Mon 8 Jul 02 09:13
    
Thanks for the Independence Day good wishes, Mary, Barb and all ...
back atcha, and back in the saddle here, but only for a few hours. I'm
heading off on vacation and will be off-line until Monday, July 22. 

Steve/digman, yeah, "Taken At All" is true CSNY "all in one room." The
interplay is natural and beautiful. Love your description of their
voices.

Back to pre-trip prep ...  
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #337 of 376: David Gans (tnf) Mon 8 Jul 02 10:03
    
Have a great trip, Dave!  See you in two weeks.
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #338 of 376: Mary Eisenhart (marye) Mon 8 Jul 02 10:27
    
Have a wonderful time! 
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #339 of 376: Dave Zimmer (zimmerdave) Mon 8 Jul 02 10:54
    
Thanks, David, Mary ... and thanks for helping make this inkwell.vue
experience such a cool deal. Further on ...
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #340 of 376: DIVINE MS M (tnf) Wed 10 Jul 02 09:39
    

This is from DIVINE MS M:

I saw CSNY this February here in Grand Rapids (sorry about the dead crowd,
Croz- they teach these Calvinists to be quiet in church when they're still in
nappies) <grin>.

I enjoyed a truly transcendent evening of music. The boys haven't lost their
touch- they are still one hell of a rock and roll band, and it was such fun
to hear some newer material.

My questions concerns Stephen Stills. I just thought he looked so SAD. There
is just this ineffable sense around him of life just having kicked his ass.
What have you got to say about that, Dave? Any idea what that's about? I know
you said that you stayed away from his "demons" in the new version of the
book, but...I'd be interested to hear your response.

I want to mail the guy some cookies, or something...
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #341 of 376: Steve Silberman (digaman) Wed 10 Jul 02 10:15
    
> I just thought he looked so SAD

Comes through in his lyrics lately too, which border on paranoia about 
such topics as people "wanting to be [his] shrink."  He could probably use 
a good one.
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #342 of 376: Dave Zimmer (zimmerdave) Tue 23 Jul 02 19:55
    
Hi folks, back online after two-week trip ...

In answer the comments and question about Stephen Stills from DIVINE
MS. M (a "mystery person" I may or may not know) and Digaman/Steve
Silberman's comment ... 

My impression of Stills on the CSNY 2K2 tour was that he looked
*happier* than in recent years ... at least on stage. I picked up
traces of weariness in New York, though. But sadness? If that feeling
was there, I missed it.

The sadness you picked up in Grand Rapids could very well have been
real.  Perhaps Stills was sensing, that night, that this was the last
turn around the wheel for CSNY and that the future beyond this tour was
uncertain.  

Stephen wears his feelings on his sleeve. He's one of the most
sensitive musicians I've ever interviewed. He's admitted to me on a
number of occasions that he wished he had the chance "do over" a few
parts of his career. But he's brushed away regrets an instant later,
adding, "When I look at my wife, my children, my family ... I feel like
a lucky man. I can't dwell on what might have been." It is his family,
he's admitted, that keep his *demons" at bay.

As for Stephen using a good shrink ... sometimes when I've interviewed
the man, I've *felt* like his shrink. Somwe of that has stayed between
the two of us. He's admitted (for the record) that he's wary of
strangers who think they *know* him. Among people he trusts, he's
candid, open ... sometimes sad, yes, but who isn't at different turns?

I don't think life has "kicked his ass" to point where he's letting it
get him down for long. I recently learned Stills is (finally) trying
to complete a new solo CD this year.  



  

 
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #343 of 376: David Gans (tnf) Tue 23 Jul 02 20:22
    

Last week I bheard a very young Stills, as a member of the Au Go Go Singers,
singing "High Flying Bird."  Richie Unterberger talked about this performance
in his book "Turn! Turn! Turn!" (featured in the inkwell 9/27-20/11).  The
background vocals are, as Richie notes, pretty hokey.  But Stills is great.
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #344 of 376: DIVINE MS M writes (tnf) Wed 24 Jul 02 07:56
    

From DIVINE MS M:




Thanks for your responses, Dave and Steve. And there's no mystery here, Dave-
but who knew that anybody in Bland Rapids was reading Inkwell, right <grin>?
You don't know me, but if you're ever marooned in B.R., come on over for
dinner!  Finding the WellJwasJa gift- who knew that there were this many of
us?

I canJsee how a life in the big fishbowl could make a person wary of people
who don't really know you, but want to speculate. And is there anybody here
over 40 that doesn't have a few regrets? Not if you've LIVED, right?

As for the demons...well, I guess if you're awake at all, you'll have them.
They're a corollary to whatever gifts we're given, I think. As in so many
other things, it's a matter of degree.  His sensitivity, as you point it out,
would only make that more intense, I'm sure. What comes across in what you've
said here, as well as in the book, is that you like the man.

I have a five year old little "breath of divinity" here myself, and I can't
remember how I looked at the world before she came along, so I can also see
his family keeping him sane. KidsJkeep you honest- and awake inJmore ways
than one.

StillsJlooked like he was having a hell ofJa great time playing. He was in
good form and good voice here. The man still plays his ass off.

One thing I've never understood is the critical beating Stills has taken.
It's almost as if the bar is set so high for him he'll never live up to what
the music establishment expects, or something. I mean, Neil has put out some
mighty "uneven" (trying to be polite) records, and yet Stills takes the
drubbing.  Small wonder that it takes the guy years to put a record out.
Throw a little perfectionism on top, and you've got a long wait for an album.
Some of his albums have been better than others (yea, yea, I know), but he
seems to elicit a negative reaction that does not accrue ot the other three
at the same intensity.

All I can say after reading the book and following the discussion here is
that we-as a cohort-Jare certainly going to make interesting senior citizens,
aren't we?
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #345 of 376: Dan Marsh (dam) Wed 24 Jul 02 08:59
    
I would love to see a solo Stills show!

Freakin MSG was silent during Still's solo spot in S:JBE!
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #346 of 376: Dave Zimmer (zimmerdave) Wed 24 Jul 02 10:46
    
>a very young Stills, as a member of the Au Go Go Singers,
singing "High Flying Bird."  
That's one of my favorite Stills vocals ever, David. Pure gold ...

>he seems to elicit a negative reaction that does not accrue to the
other three at the same intensity.
Well, Ms. M (thanks for the comments and understanding), Stills was
brutalized by critics in the mid/late '70s and '80s. Part of that may
have been that he set the bar so high early in his career with such
masterpieces as "Bluebird," "The Suite," "Go Back Home," "Singin'
Call," and "The Treasure," anything less was trashed. Critics virtually
ignored his last solo album, Stills Alone. Since his work with CSNY
has been so praised (even by Rolling Stone and New York critics),
perhaps his next disc will be reviewed with that perspective.

Of the other three, Nash has probably had the roughest time with
reviewers. Croz, less so. Neil ... well, he seems to have a free pass
card: critics love the guy. Although his latest album, Are You
Passionate?, was not embraced as a classic.

>I would love to see a solo Stills show!

Dan, I've always loved Stills solo shows, too. He doesn't do enough of
them. Mostly because of economics, unfortunately.
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #347 of 376: "First you steal a bicycle...." (rik) Wed 24 Jul 02 11:08
    
Economics?
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #348 of 376: Chris Carroll (marvy) Wed 24 Jul 02 11:11
    
Are you Passionate? rocks. Best Neil record since, well, the last one. Still
great though.
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #349 of 376: Mary Eisenhart (marye) Wed 24 Jul 02 11:38
    
I think maybe the thing about Neil is that he has so many things
going on more or less in parallel that if he releases the occasional
unmitigated dud (I can't remember the name of the album, mind you, but
there was some very techno-maze type album he did in the '80s that
was universally derided as a true stinker, and its main effect was
to just make people want the next one more, knowing it'd be different).
  
inkwell.vue.152 : Dave Zimmer - Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Biography
permalink #350 of 376: DIVINE MS M writes (tnf) Wed 24 Jul 02 14:05
    

from DIVINE MS M:



Dave Z. et al-

Interesting comments, Dave. I do remember Nash taking a critical slap or two,
as well. Somehow, people seem to regard him as less serious or something-
never got that, either. Yes, he's written a dog or two, but with any career
of that length, it's inevitable. He still hasn't really been slapped down
like Stephen has-"brutalized" is the right word for it. I'll posit that
Crosby is such an irresistible personality-even with all his "troubles"- that
he gets a break the other two don't, sometimes. Perhaps, despite his
sensitivity, Stills is somehow not as well liked. I can't understand why CPR
hasn't gotten more attention, though. What do you think?

One observation I made (again) at the 2/02 Grand Rapids show is how different
Neil's audience seems to be from the people who turn out for CSN without him,
or for CPR or any of the guys alone.  At the risk of starting a brawl here, I
will comment that having seen several different configurations, Neil sure
seems to bring out the drunks, yodelers and loudmouths. I think we can all
stipulate to Neil's genius, but there is something about his work that also
appeals to the, um, shall we say, musically less sophisticated. Maybe it's
volume.  I've seen some messed-up people at concerts, but the 2/02 show
treated us to the drunkest, foulest people I've ever seen at a live show
(next to us, unfortunately) who screamed for Neil the whole time. I made the
same observation about the loudmouths at the last Neil solo show I saw. My
companion for all of these shows calls them the "whooo-oooo people". I'm not
sure if I'm becoming a dinosaur, but I've always thought artists deserve
respect- and showing up drunk-and shrieking unintellingibly-Jdoesn't get it
(audience OR artist...). I'm not blaming Neil for some of his fans, just
commenting on my own observation of theJdifference.

Perhaps the critics are no more discerning than the general public. No big
surprise there, says the cynic.

You have a good point about Stephen's own musical bar- he's written some
bloody brilliant songs. I've always liked "Singin' Call", and S.S. is in
frequent rotation in my studio, and has been for years. It doesn't get
old.JAnd I'd forgotten "High Flying Bird"- wow. I guess the early work is a
tough standard, but I still feel he hasn't been given half the chance he
deserves. No one can be brilliant all the time, but where's his support for
trying something new?

I have a great deal of respect for Neil, but it's a little tough for me to
swallow seeing him granted elder statesman status while C, S, and N don't get
the same well-publicized respect from the Eddie Vedders of the world.
Sampling just isn't the same thing, in my mind.

I thought "Passionate" was adequate, but not his best work. Can't wait to
hear Stills' new one.
  

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