May the race be worthy of your sentiments David Kline
inkwell.vue.200
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The Wrong War?
permalink #77 of 146: tambourine verde (barb-albq) Tue 18 Nov 03 13:04
permalink #77 of 146: tambourine verde (barb-albq) Tue 18 Nov 03 13:04
For the cup half empty view: the greed and need to dominate others seems be hardwired. Their expression just comes in revised, more masked forms. For instance, slavery is gone from the US but our very economic system ensures it continues and grows elsewhere to serve our consumer and investor needs. We have cut out a piece of the world and are ridding it of lots of pollution and unsightly practices, only to move these elsewhere where they continue to feed the greed and domination lusts.
inkwell.vue.200
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The Wrong War?
permalink #78 of 146: I'm on the Chet Atkins Diet. Pass the BBQ, please. (rik) Tue 18 Nov 03 13:05
permalink #78 of 146: I'm on the Chet Atkins Diet. Pass the BBQ, please. (rik) Tue 18 Nov 03 13:05
"We no longer practice human sacrifice, serfdom or slavery" Well, you've got one out of three. Provisionally. Human sacrifice is more and more difficult to pull off. These days, we call it collateral damage. But as for serfdom and slavery, it may have been driven underground, but guestworkers in the middle east, and tribesmen in subsaharan Africa might find the rejoicing a bit premature. Slavery may be illegal, but it remains. And as for serfdom, lets visit the sweatshops of asia, home of many of the jobs that have left our shores. And one of the major reasons that it has left our shores is that serfdom is easier to pull off there. "Here at home, slavery no longer exists nor does the Jim Crow segregation which prevailedat the time I was born." You are, once again, using conditions in the US to point to the future elsewhere. It may very well be the other way around. It is illegal to operate that way here, but it's quite common elsewhere. In Israel, for instance, your religion determines where you can or cannot buy property. Northern Ireland remains Jim Crow in the face of the fact that you can't tell the players by sight. I'm at work. More later
> slavery is gone from the US but our very economic system ensures it > continues ... Do not confuse the persistence of exploitation with the continuation of legal, chattel ownership of human beings. Or the persistence of war with the routine slaughter of captured prisoners. Exploitation of course continues. But in general it tends to take less onerous forms. This is no small matter. Just ask any illegal migrant or sweatshop slave who finally gets to be a (still-exploited) wage laborer, with the right to leave his or her employment or strike for higher wages.
inkwell.vue.200
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The Wrong War?
permalink #80 of 146: tambourine verde (barb-albq) Tue 18 Nov 03 14:51
permalink #80 of 146: tambourine verde (barb-albq) Tue 18 Nov 03 14:51
The point is that our "enlightened" natives continue something very close to the more awful practices of the past, just someplace outside our borders and with some adjustments for modern conditions. Because there is such a lopsided economy, these practices suffice. But if there really were a shortage of people willing to work for peanuts rather than starve, I'm sure there would be many within the "new economy" considering how to reinstitute bondage...
No, the point is that compared to, say, 500 years ago, far far fewer human beings worldwide are enslaved with absolutely no legal or human rights. It's tragic that exploitation and war still exists, and I've seen quite a bit of it. But I've yet to hear any evidence to suggest that, in general, life isn't getting better for most human beings over time. But as you said, yours is a half-empty view.
inkwell.vue.200
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The Wrong War?
permalink #82 of 146: tambourine verde (barb-albq) Tue 18 Nov 03 15:31
permalink #82 of 146: tambourine verde (barb-albq) Tue 18 Nov 03 15:31
Do you really believe far far fewer humans are enslaved? Aren't the terms of the enslavement merely less defined?
No, they are very clearly defined. Wage labor is a major step up from serfdom. It offers fundamental legal, political and economic rights that serfdom does not. Ask any serf. Serfdom is a huge advance over chattel slavery, which denied slaves any legal or human rights at all -- including the right to marry, seek redress in court or by petition, or even the right to their very lives. Does exploitation continue, even among wage laborers? Of course. But any slave or serf would give anything to achieve wage labor status and all the accompanying rights and benefits that go with it (even if these pale next to the perogatives of the rich). That's why human societies, as the Marxists rightly noted, proceed along an inevitable path from slavery to feudalism to capitalism to ... well, we'll have to come up with something better than state socialism for the next step in social evolution. Why is it so difficult to recognize the progress made by millions of men and women over the course of milennia? Do you feel that by doing so, you deny the widespread suffering and exploitation that still exists?
inkwell.vue.200
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The Wrong War?
permalink #84 of 146: tambourine verde (barb-albq) Tue 18 Nov 03 17:11
permalink #84 of 146: tambourine verde (barb-albq) Tue 18 Nov 03 17:11
No I just don't see things as black and white and sunny as you seem to. Your scenario of constant "progress" sounds like some Walt Disney tale or GE ad about how things just keep improving and improving. They do in some ways. In others not. There's alot of back and forth, up, down and sideways. I don't really see today's unrestrained freemarket capitalism as a step up for many. In fact, I believe it's a doomed and unsustainable system for allocating resources, which is hard to see as a step forward when we have human and civil rights decreasing for many, the destruction of the earth accelerating, the middle class being eliminated and the economy increasingly based on stock manipulation, fraud and the exploitation of third world countries. And I see this Iraq war as part of that exploitation, just to get back on topic. I understand what you are saying, but I believe things are more cyclical than you portray. We may be progressing in the big scheme of things in some areas, but there are certainly frequent plunges back to the pits for many.
The way I look at it is that civilization is progressing on most fronts, but the danger of extinction is also growing. I think the question of whether we'll evolve to the point of enlightened sustainability before wiping ourselves out is still open.
inkwell.vue.200
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The Wrong War?
permalink #86 of 146: one big petri dish (jnfr) Tue 18 Nov 03 17:56
permalink #86 of 146: one big petri dish (jnfr) Tue 18 Nov 03 17:56
I agree with that, Ron. We're skating so close to the edge, and the stakes are enormous. I admire David's belief that we will find our way out, but I'm personally unsure.
Incidentally, slavery exists in Eastern Europe in the prostitution trade. These women are bought and sold like any other commodity, and treated as badly as any slave ever was. But this is, as noted, drift...
Slavery is the big undiscovered story now a days. I guess thats why its punching holes in an Iraq thread.
inkwell.vue.200
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The Wrong War?
permalink #89 of 146: tambourine verde (barb-albq) Wed 19 Nov 03 07:50
permalink #89 of 146: tambourine verde (barb-albq) Wed 19 Nov 03 07:50
Now that the US dropped literally dozens of 500-lb bombs in Iraq yesterday, it's probably time to return to the topic of what is going on over there. To me the latest air war forays seem to be a case of "doing something" whether it's actually effective or not. I read that our military forced a number of women and children out of their houses so that the buildings could be destroyed because they were the residences of of "suspected terrorists." An effective strategy?
No. Just desperation & frustration, IMO. Despite their denials, it smacks of the Israelis' punitive bulldozing policy.
smacks and positivly punchs
Collective punishment via bulldozing homes is not a winning strategy. It is also illegal under international law.
I guess we are going to start hearing a lot more about the Vietnam war.
Actually: Iraq: looking back BATH, England One commentator after another - the venerable Walter Cronkite is only the latest - has warned that Iraq is "another Vietnam." Although this is understandable (and shows how untrue it is that America has exorcised the ghosts of Vietnam), it's an inapt comparison. There are much better parallels. (http://www.iht.com/articles/118121.html) ...this guy says the Suez crisis. Very interesting piece.
Very interesting. "The ideologues of Washington failed to see that the one way to make even an unpopular Arab leader [Saddam] popular was for America to attack him. "At Suez, the British and French attacked Nasser, in the process reinforcing his popularity, and gravely damaged their standing in the Arab world. In 2003, the United States attacked Saddam, in the process making him popular for the first time, and gravely damaged American standing in the Arab world."
inkwell.vue.200
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The Wrong War?
permalink #96 of 146: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Wed 19 Nov 03 13:13
permalink #96 of 146: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Wed 19 Nov 03 13:13
Riverbend on the bombing, and other things: http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/2003_11_01_riverbendblog_archive.html "There have also been a string of raids all over Baghdad, but especially in Al-A'adhamiya. They've detained dozens of people with the excuse that they own more than one weapon. Who owns less than two weapons? Everyone has at least one Klashnikov and a couple of guns. Every male in the house is usually armed and sometimes the females are too. It's not because we love turning our homes into arsenals, but because the situation was so dangerous (and in some areas still is) that no one wants to take any risks. Imagine the scene: a blue mini-van pulls up 10 dirty, long-haired men clamber out with Klashnikovs, pistols and grenades and demand all the gold and the kids (for ransom). Now imagine trying to face them all with a single handgun if Baghdad were SECURE people would give up their weapons. I hate having weapons in the house." (Kind of funny that when there's an actual situation where ordinary citizens really do need guns to protect themselves, the Republicans forget what the second amendment is all about.)
inkwell.vue.200
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The Wrong War?
permalink #97 of 146: Sharon Lynne Fisher (slf) Wed 19 Nov 03 13:58
permalink #97 of 146: Sharon Lynne Fisher (slf) Wed 19 Nov 03 13:58
Hell, I have more than one weapon.
Me, too. One day someone is going to build an entire book or movie off of this one, utterly-insane image of U.S. soldiers "searching for weapons" in Iraq and Afghanistan -- where literally (not figuratively) EVERYONE has them. I say again, where is Joseph Heller when we need him?
inkwell.vue.200
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The Wrong War?
permalink #99 of 146: tambourine verde (barb-albq) Wed 19 Nov 03 14:13
permalink #99 of 146: tambourine verde (barb-albq) Wed 19 Nov 03 14:13
In passing I heard we dropped two 2,000 lb. bombs yesterday. Guess we're moving up from the teeny weeny 500 lb. models.
Sensing Shiites Will Rule Iraq, U.S. Starts to See Friends, Not Foes By STEVEN R. WEISMAN WASHINGTON, Nov. 19 - The Bush administration, which was wary earlier this year of installing a government dominated by Shiites in Iraq, has concluded that such a development is virtually inevitable and not necessarily harmful to American interests, administration officials said Wednesday. The officials said that fears of an Iranian-style - and Iranian- influenced - theocracy in Baghdad have faded because it has become clear that Iraq's Shiite population is not a monolithic bloc and not necessarily dominated by Tehran. "Our basic position is that as we get to know more of Iraqi society, we're more comfortable with a democratic process, and if that emerges with a predominant Shiite role, so be it," said an administration official. "There's been a steady education process here." Still, American officials are taking steps to ensure that when a Shiite-dominated government is installed next year, as most expect, religious freedom and minority rights are respected and Iraq's neighbors are reassured that the first Shiite-governed Arab country does not pose a threat to them. The shift in the administration's thinking laid the groundwork for the decision announced last week to accelerate the timetable for self- government in Iraq, administration officials say. More: http://nytimes.com/2003/11/20/international/middleeast/20GOVE.html
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