inkwell.vue.200 : The Wrong War?
permalink #101 of 146: tambourine verde (barb-albq) Thu 20 Nov 03 08:39
I'm sure the Shia are smart enough to tell their US occupiers anything
at this point to gain control. What they do afterwards is another
issue entirely. Amazing how quickly BushCo is backing down from almost
all the positions that it held at the start of this "peace."
inkwell.vue.200 : The Wrong War?
permalink #102 of 146: John Zuill (klauposius) Thu 20 Nov 03 09:00
Well you have to cut them some slack. It would be what they are
calling " a learning process." But I agree. Setting a deadline for
getting out of Iraq provides thier enemies with many oppurtunities to
manipulate the situation and they will.
inkwell.vue.200 : The Wrong War?
permalink #103 of 146: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Thu 20 Nov 03 10:26
It's somewhat encouraging.  Democracy means the Iraqis have to figure
things out for themselves.  It's about time the administration realized
inkwell.vue.200 : The Wrong War?
permalink #104 of 146: tambourine verde (barb-albq) Thu 20 Nov 03 10:28
I'll wait and see. Talk is cheap with this admin.
inkwell.vue.200 : The Wrong War?
permalink #105 of 146: Sharon Lynne Fisher (slf) Thu 20 Nov 03 10:41
I don't think the administration *wants* the Iraqi to figure things
out for themselves.
inkwell.vue.200 : The Wrong War?
permalink #106 of 146: John Zuill (klauposius) Thu 20 Nov 03 11:01
The ambiguous positioin of the admin in relation to the issue of
democracy may blow the whole thing. I know that everybody thinks
democracy is a good thing -but it is important to remember that it is a
tricky thing to get going. The US has never suceeded in doing it. Why
they are so confident they can is a question indeed.
inkwell.vue.200 : The Wrong War?
permalink #107 of 146: Gail Williams (gail) Thu 20 Nov 03 11:57
Small visual aside from the international world of protest culture:
inkwell.vue.200 : The Wrong War?
permalink #108 of 146: Ron Levin (eclectic2) Fri 21 Nov 03 09:34
Poll: Most Iraqis accept US troops
By Andrew Hammond, Reuters, 11/21/2003

BAGHDAD -- A growing number of Iraqis thinks US troops should stay in
Iraq until the security situation improves, research published this
month has found.
In a survey carried out by the Psychological Research Center of
Baghdad University, 71.5 percent of Iraqis think the US occupation is
necessary at least for a while, compared to 42 percent in a survey by
the center in June.

"This shows an acceptance of the foreign presence as a temporary
solution because of the fear, confusion and absence of law and order
following the collapse of the old regime," the report said.

President Bush said yesterday more troops could be sent to Iraq if
necessary to secure the country.

The study also showed 63.2 percent approved of the Governing Council,
appointed by the US occupying authorities in July, as a first step
toward stability and a new Iraq. Only 36.8 percent said the Council
merely reinforced the occupation.

The research was carried out in a sample of 1,000 people from
different sectors of the population all over the country of about 26
million people, which has seen security deteriorate amid a mounting
insurgency against US forces.

inkwell.vue.200 : The Wrong War?
permalink #109 of 146: John Zuill (klauposius) Fri 21 Nov 03 09:48
This is going to be a long war.
inkwell.vue.200 : The Wrong War?
permalink #110 of 146: Gail Williams (gail) Fri 21 Nov 03 10:13

What's happening in Turkey?  This article
has a small mention of the groups claiming responsibility for the bombings:

> An unidentified caller to the semiofficial Anatolia news agency said
> al-Qaida and a small militant Turkish group, the Islamic Great Eastern
> Raiders' Front jointly claimed responsibility for both sets of attacks.

Anybody know much about the IGERF?
inkwell.vue.200 : The Wrong War?
permalink #111 of 146: John Zuill (klauposius) Fri 21 Nov 03 11:30
The following I recieved on the net and can not make any statement as
to its validity. It seems authentic. Has anyone else seen it?


The following is an edited version of a statement purportedly from a
unit of
Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida network, Abu Hafz al-Masri Brigades. It
today on an Islamist website, al-Mujahidoun, and was translated from
Arabic by Reuters 

Friday November 21, 2003 

Statement from the Jihad al-Qaida "Operation Islamic Iron Hammer". 
We mentioned and we promised in our earlier statement: "As for the
tails of
America - especially Britain, Italy, Australia and Japan - who did not
understand what was said by mojahedin leader Sheikh Osama bin Laden
Ramadan when he threatened that martyrdom operations would not stop
and outside America ... And if they do not understand words then the
cars of
death will make them understand". 
And we said: "The cars of death will not stop ... until Washington
to the conditions of the mojahedin [Islamist fighters] ... and here
now are
the cars of death reaping the [souls of the] allies of the tyrant of
the era
every day ... and by the will of God, America will soon look for
someone to
protect it from the mohahedin on its soil. 
In Turkey today, the vanguards of the Abu Hafz al-Masri Brigades
the British consul, Roger Short, because of his extensive experience
combatting Islam and because he is considered the mastermind of
policy in the region comprising Iraq, Syria, Turkey and Iran. 
Our cars of death struck the consulate building ... and by the grace
of God,
he was killed. 
As for the British bank headquarters, this is a bastion of the British
economy and let Britain and its people know that its alliance with
will not bring it prosperity or security 
We admit that the cars of death that targeted the British bank were
put in
an inappropriate place, which caused some casualties among innocents,
this pains us tremendously, but the media must share our blame because
have repeatedly warned Muslims not to go anywhere near the diplomatic,
economic or military headquarters of America and its allies; for our
war, which will begin soon, will have no boundaries and will show no
towards the tyrant of the era and his allies. 
As for you Turkey, isn't it time you left the Crusader army and
returned to
the Islamic nation? Isn't it time you withdrew your army from
stopped all ties with the Zionists entity; stopped providing American
soldiers for Iraq; left the Crusader Atlantic alliance? We consider
government of Turkey as a first-class agent for America and therefore
must choose - peace or America. 
O Bush, what have you done to America and its allies ... where is the
security you promised them, where is the developed Afghanistan, where
is the
free, secure Iraq? 
By God Bush, you've fallen into a trap as we planned for you. You're
in a war with people who love death as much as you love life. So
yourself for what is coming. 
Listen to us, you criminal, the cars of death will not stop until you
concede to our demands and they include: 
1. That they free our prisoners in American prisons, especially the
prisoners of Guantanamo and the mojahed Sheikh Omar Abdul-Rahman and
in the jails of the Arab, western, Persian and Jewish tails of
2. That they stop their war against Islam and Muslims around the world
the name of fighting terrorism. 
3. To purify all Islamic land from the filth of the Jews and
including Jerusalem and Kashmir. 
4. For America to stop interfering between us and the tyrannical
which rule Muslims and for us to set up an Islamic caliphate [state]. 
O Islamic nation, you must support the mojahedin to victory ... God is
Greatest, Islam is on the way. 
Abu Hafz al-Masri Brigades. 

inkwell.vue.200 : The Wrong War?
permalink #112 of 146: John Zuill (klauposius) Fri 21 Nov 03 11:52
Have a source for the above quote

The Guardian
inkwell.vue.200 : The Wrong War?
permalink #113 of 146: David Kline (dkline) Fri 21 Nov 03 11:56
>> and for us to set up an Islamic caliphate [state].

Well, that about sums it up. Their demands include that we allow them 
to set up an Islamic world order.

We'll have no peace anywhere until they, or we, are dead.
inkwell.vue.200 : The Wrong War?
permalink #114 of 146: Sharon Lynne Fisher (slf) Fri 21 Nov 03 12:02
Rotsa ruck.
inkwell.vue.200 : The Wrong War?
permalink #115 of 146: John Zuill (klauposius) Fri 21 Nov 03 12:08
I say let em try to set up a caliphate. What nation-states have worked
so well? Why does the west think you have to have a nation for
anything to make sense. Nations are an approbrious failure mostly. Look
at the US. Works pretty well right? Because its all divided up into
semi-autonomous dominions. 50 of them with thier own common law of all
things. Sounds a bit like a caliphate doesn't it? I seem to remember (
I move into an area of less knowlege here ) that the Caliphate was a
loose agreement among different soveriiengties wasn't it?
inkwell.vue.200 : The Wrong War?
permalink #116 of 146: Ron Levin (eclectic2) Sat 22 Nov 03 09:59
U.S. Seeks Advice From Israel on Iraq
By Esther Schrader and Josh Meyer, Times Staff Writers

WASHINGTON — Facing a bloody insurgency by guerrillas who label it an
"occupier," the U.S. military has quietly turned to an ally experienced
with occupation and uprisings: Israel.

In the last six months, U.S. Army commanders, Pentagon officials and
military trainers have sought advice from Israeli intelligence and
security officials on everything from how to set up roadblocks to the
best way to bomb suspected guerrilla hide-outs in an urban area.

"Those who have to deal with like problems tend to share information
as best they can," Stephen Cambone, undersecretary of Defense for
intelligence, said Friday at a defense writers breakfast here.

The contacts between the two governments on military tactics and
strategies in Iraq are mostly classified, and officials are reluctant
to give the impression that the U.S. is brainstorming with Israel on
the best way to occupy Iraq. Cambone said there is no formal dialogue
between the two allies on Iraq, but they are working together. 

Indeed, the U.S. is loath to draw any comparison between what it says
is its liberation of Iraq and what the international community has
condemned as Israel's illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza

But Israeli and American officials confirm that with extremists
carrying out suicide bombings and firing rocket-propelled grenades and
missiles on U.S. forces in Iraq, the Pentagon is increasingly seeking
advice from the Israeli military on how to defeat the sort of
insurgency that Israel has long experience confronting.

The Israelis "certainly have a wealth of experience from a military
standpoint in dealing with domestic terror, urban terror, military
operations in urban terrain, and there is a great deal of intelligence
and knowledge sharing going on right now, all of which makes sense," a
senior U.S. Army official said on condition of anonymity. "We are
certainly tapping into their knowledge base to find out what you do in
these kinds of situations."

inkwell.vue.200 : The Wrong War?
permalink #117 of 146: John Zuill (klauposius) Sat 22 Nov 03 10:07
Bad to worse
inkwell.vue.200 : The Wrong War?
permalink #118 of 146: Berliner (captward) Sat 22 Nov 03 10:27
Yeah, the Israelis are living proof that their methods work, right? 
inkwell.vue.200 : The Wrong War?
permalink #119 of 146: John Zuill (klauposius) Sat 22 Nov 03 10:34
Well the news from Georgia is heartening. 
inkwell.vue.200 : The Wrong War?
permalink #120 of 146: Darrell Jonsson (jonsson) Sun 23 Nov 03 12:43

There have been some relatively [if not completely peaceful]
sytem turnovers in the last 100 years, let's hope Georgia
continues on that thread.
inkwell.vue.200 : The Wrong War?
permalink #121 of 146: Berliner (captward) Mon 24 Nov 03 09:53
The latest issue of Granta (83) mostly focuses on climate change, but
it ends with three great articles on Iraq. First is Christopher de
Bellaigue on the looting of the Iraqi Museum, then Guardian reporter
James Meek's diary of the invasion -- very critical of Americans, as
you might expect. But the real gem is a diary of the Iraqi artist Nuha
al-Radi, as she returns from exile in Lebanon to her family and friends
in Baghdad. 

Hers is the sort of voice we should be paying attention to: she's
fluent in a number of languages, highly educated, but from a Muslim
nation. Where our media see a firm guiding hand helping a formerly
oppressed people towards democracy she sees overbearing paternalism and
condescension. If there are enough like her, nobody needs to fear for
Iraq. But I suspect that every day there are, in fact, fewer. 
inkwell.vue.200 : The Wrong War?
permalink #122 of 146: John Zuill (klauposius) Mon 24 Nov 03 19:42
Is granta back in print? I thought they stopped issueing it.
inkwell.vue.200 : The Wrong War?
permalink #123 of 146: Michael C. Berch (mcb) Mon 24 Nov 03 21:58
I wasn't aware it had ever stopped.  I've subscribed for several
inkwell.vue.200 : The Wrong War?
permalink #124 of 146: William H. Dailey (whdailey) Wed 26 Nov 03 23:04
Albright said a while back that we should have picked up all of the
light arms right after we "won" the war.  I have read that it is easier
to change from one religion to another than to go from no religion to
any religion.  We needed an eleventh Commandment:

Thou shalt not lust for power over thy fellow man.

White slavery is actually being aided by the internet; brothel owners
can simply get on the web and order up women.

Atomic bombs are now out of date.  The russian KGB has weapons
powerful enough to split the very earth.  They can lay down desease
over whole nations.  Lucky for the rest of us, a couple of small
nations are on a par with them and could wipe them out if they
misbehave.  In our country, certain scientific progress has been
suppressed by the same people who are trying to gain control over all
of the oil in this earth.  We do have the flying saucers though. In the
news recently it was said that Bush decided to continue to keep their
hiding place, area 51 secret.
inkwell.vue.200 : The Wrong War?
permalink #125 of 146: David Kline (dkline) Thu 27 Nov 03 10:15
Yep, and I think I'm picking up CIA radio frequencies in my brain.


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