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Angie Coiro, On The Air
permalink #101 of 168: Berliner (captward) Thu 20 Jul 06 01:34
permalink #101 of 168: Berliner (captward) Thu 20 Jul 06 01:34
Whoa, so it sounds like a lot wound up on the cutting-room floor there. And that neatly defuses what was going to be my next question, about how the pace of current events can easily outstrip a show that's got to be finished and in the can on Wednesday night for a Sunday airing. Have you ever had that happen? Have parts of the show irrelevant or supplanted by later happenings?
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Angie Coiro, On The Air
permalink #102 of 168: Cogito, Ergo Spero (robertflink) Thu 20 Jul 06 04:40
permalink #102 of 168: Cogito, Ergo Spero (robertflink) Thu 20 Jul 06 04:40
>Critical thinking. Savvy commercial consumers, wary political consumers. A program like that would help countless people claim more power in their lives.< Much as I like the program and have contemplated similar ideas, I wonder if the issue is less about schooling and more about people wanting to be thrilled, romanced, shocked, titillated, scandalized, etc., etc.. BTW, much of the media is given to catering to this desire as well as slicing and dicing the catering. (BTW, this includes politics.). The world economy as we know it may rest in large part on the credulousness rather than the savvy of the consumer. I find critical thinking to be both useful and entertaining but notice a distinct aversion to it in most social groups as witness the usual cant of political correctness applicable to the group at hand.
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Angie Coiro, On The Air
permalink #103 of 168: Steve Bjerklie (stevebj) Thu 20 Jul 06 07:38
permalink #103 of 168: Steve Bjerklie (stevebj) Thu 20 Jul 06 07:38
Angie, have you considered formatting your idea to teach children to be smart consumers into a radio program? I think it could be done, and I think you could find an interested party/network/etc.
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Angie Coiro, On The Air
permalink #104 of 168: the fluctuating Queen Mother Band of Mourning (clmyers) Thu 20 Jul 06 10:31
permalink #104 of 168: the fluctuating Queen Mother Band of Mourning (clmyers) Thu 20 Jul 06 10:31
I could easily imagine the consumer training program done on tv ala Sesame Street. It would probably wind up with a huge adult following too.
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Angie Coiro, On The Air
permalink #105 of 168: Low and popular (rik) Thu 20 Jul 06 10:41
permalink #105 of 168: Low and popular (rik) Thu 20 Jul 06 10:41
The first episode should tell people, that despite what TV commercials tell them, they are not consumers, and that the entire point of the advertising industry is to convince you that you are not good enough without their products. The rest of the series should be an examination of how they do it. This, and how to handle money, should be taught in grade school, but it won't, since the purpose of school is not education, but rather to turn out consumers.
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Angie Coiro, On The Air
permalink #106 of 168: the fluctuating Queen Mother Band of Mourning (clmyers) Thu 20 Jul 06 10:45
permalink #106 of 168: the fluctuating Queen Mother Band of Mourning (clmyers) Thu 20 Jul 06 10:45
The graduate school version of this would be for students (high school and up?) to do a critical study of how "citizens" have been gradually replaced by "consumers".
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Angie Coiro, On The Air
permalink #107 of 168: Steve Bjerklie (stevebj) Thu 20 Jul 06 10:48
permalink #107 of 168: Steve Bjerklie (stevebj) Thu 20 Jul 06 10:48
I imagine selling the idea to a corporate sponsor for either a radio or TV version might be, well, problematic.
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Angie Coiro, On The Air
permalink #108 of 168: Low and popular (rik) Thu 20 Jul 06 11:45
permalink #108 of 168: Low and popular (rik) Thu 20 Jul 06 11:45
Well, that would seem to be troublesome.
Oh, yes, that one occurred to me early on. Likewise Robert's comment about ranging into "political correctness'. Getting this into public schools in the current climate, unfortunately, would light the same powder keg everything seems to. This would be a difficult project to fund, and to find appropriate placement for without a battle. And I suspect every year would bring a renewed fight to establish it's neither pro-liberal or pro-conservative, but pro-individual. Pro-kid, pro-mental growth. I do see multimedia as a necessity for this. A radio (or other audio) element would add a lot. But it couldn't accomplish all the work. Kids need to *look* at images to analyze them. Take them image of women in clothing ads. So many factors there to analyze: how they're photographed. How they move. What situations they're depicted in. And of course, what the ad gives the clothes credit for, so to speak. The issue of copyright comes up. I think TV placement would be superb for this. But how many manufacturers would allow use of their advertising in this less-than-friendly setting? Teaching kids that Gap clothing won't make you cool, won't make you a better dancer, and may not even be the right fit for you in the practical sense might displease Gap, Inc. Using a DVR to capture the spots - or have the kids bring in spots for analysis - circumvents that problem. Clmyers, I like that graduate level suggestion. Properly researched and assembled, this is a program that can follow kids through every development level. Imagine all the difference it might make - because consumerism contributes to obesity, political ignorance, and intellectual laziness. Imagine turning that tide even the littlest bit.
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Angie Coiro, On The Air
permalink #110 of 168: Kindness does not require an infrastructure (chrys) Thu 20 Jul 06 12:15
permalink #110 of 168: Kindness does not require an infrastructure (chrys) Thu 20 Jul 06 12:15
There *must* be a few sponsors out there who would benefit from a discerning public. (Slipped by the lady herself!)
I agree, they're out there, Chris. But are they the ones with them most profit to invest?
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Angie Coiro, On The Air
permalink #112 of 168: the fluctuating Queen Mother Band of Mourning (clmyers) Thu 20 Jul 06 12:55
permalink #112 of 168: the fluctuating Queen Mother Band of Mourning (clmyers) Thu 20 Jul 06 12:55
This sounds like "grant" rather than "sponsor" territory to me.
Yes, it is. And it can't be a one-person project, either. I don't have any knowledge whatever in some of the key areas: child development, educational technique, grant solicitation, teacher training. That's just the beginning. This is why I need either the genie or the lottery for this one. If I woke up as George Soros or Larry Ellison tomorrow, this thing would be *cookin'*.
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Angie Coiro, On The Air
permalink #114 of 168: Cupido, Ergo Denego (robertflink) Thu 20 Jul 06 13:11
permalink #114 of 168: Cupido, Ergo Denego (robertflink) Thu 20 Jul 06 13:11
>The graduate school version of this would be for students (high school and up?) to do a critical study of how "citizens" have been gradually replaced by "consumers".< There is a degree of truth to this. When gambling first came to Minnesota, people predicted that us "nordic" types here are to cheap and staid to enjoy such fun. After more than two decades it appears that there was a mother lode that was waiting to be mined. It could be that we are "citizens" as long as we don't have the opportunity to be "consumers". My impression of history is that even hundreds of years ago, those few that had resources consumed with vigor. Was there a golden age when those with the where-with-all denied themselves the pleasures of conspicuous consumption and put their energies instead into citizenship? Veblen didn't mention it.
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Angie Coiro, On The Air
permalink #115 of 168: Low and popular (rik) Thu 20 Jul 06 15:46
permalink #115 of 168: Low and popular (rik) Thu 20 Jul 06 15:46
I wouldn't call gambling consumption, except in a crude sense that you pay money and get sensations you enjoy (well, some people do). My sense of the term, "consumer", is someone who has bought into the idea that you are what you own, and that the important work of life is choosing the right products. There's a wonderful vignette at the beginning of "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" where the author offeres to fix the loose handlebars of his friend's BMW (which the friend bought after months of market research and agonizing over whether or not it's the "right" bike.) When the friend found that the author's fix was a shim cut from an aluminum beer can, he balked. It wasn't official enough. He was actually bothered that it wasn't a brand name shim. The friend is a consumer.
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Angie Coiro, On The Air
permalink #116 of 168: Sharon Lynne Fisher (slf) Thu 20 Jul 06 18:33
permalink #116 of 168: Sharon Lynne Fisher (slf) Thu 20 Jul 06 18:33
I could see Consumer Reports partnering with Mother Jones on the kid thing (which I'm working on teaching my kid).
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Angie Coiro, On The Air
permalink #117 of 168: Low and popular (rik) Thu 20 Jul 06 20:28
permalink #117 of 168: Low and popular (rik) Thu 20 Jul 06 20:28
My point, which I can see that I left buried in my verbiage, is that the concept is so subversive to what is currently both the American way of life and the means by which very powerful people get rich that it will get killed, buried, and the grave cemented over by the US Chamber of Commerce. If you think PBS took shit over Bill Moyers and Frontline, wait until TPTB grab their bought legislators by the throat and gut funding for everything but the Nightly Business Report.
I think it was at the Well picnic, rik, that I brought this up and was promptly told it could get me killed. I'm sure that was only partly in jest. So like so many other good ideas, it could only be passed along in individual lessons, to parents who are already bright and informed enough to go out and seek it for their children. Yippee, another gulf between the haves and the have-nots. Sharon, I think partnering with Mother Jones would get it buried that much faster. Affiliation with any politically activist body would make it more of a target. Consumer Reports, OTOH, is a stroke of brilliance! Frankly, I suspect this will always be a pipe dream. Minus a personal fortune, this would take such a battle to fund and implement, I'd have to devote more time and energy than I have. Nice thing about Inkwell - it's publicly viewable and archived forever. Someday some exceeding rich and civic-minded person could find the idea here, and move it forward. Hey, I can dream.
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Angie Coiro, On The Air
permalink #119 of 168: Berliner (captward) Fri 21 Jul 06 11:57
permalink #119 of 168: Berliner (captward) Fri 21 Jul 06 11:57
But there is that threat which public radio seems always to be under. It's what makes those stupid spam messages we've all gotten from well-meaning friends -- "Nina Totenberg said on Talk of the Nation that..." blah blah blah, sign this petition and send it on -- credible. Do you see this eventuality -- public radio and television folding under political pressure -- as even a remote reality? Do you feel any safer with commercial radio?
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Angie Coiro, On The Air
permalink #120 of 168: Cupido, Ergo Denego (robertflink) Fri 21 Jul 06 18:51
permalink #120 of 168: Cupido, Ergo Denego (robertflink) Fri 21 Jul 06 18:51
>My sense of the term, "consumer", is someone who has bought into the idea that you are what you own, and that the important work of life is choosing the right products.< If you think that Western Civilization or capitalism invented the "consumer", guess again. Veblen's Theory of the Leisure Class shows conspicuous consumption to be ubiquitous. It may be that the West has been particularly efficient at exploiting this human trait. I'm all for enlightening the consumer but let's acknowledge the "nature of the beast" as we develop the systems to curb his/her nature. BTW, thanks for reminding me of the shim vignette. It was precious and an excellent example of a total consumer. I seem to recall that the BMW owner also recoiled at the idea of being able to fix his own machine. It seemed, in his mind, to sully the purity of being a rider.
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Angie Coiro, On The Air
permalink #121 of 168: Low and popular (rik) Fri 21 Jul 06 20:22
permalink #121 of 168: Low and popular (rik) Fri 21 Jul 06 20:22
Exactly. I read Veblen in high school, and it was an eye-opener. Even more fun were my teacher's stories about his private life, but that's a side-trip. And I'm well aware that human beings jockey for status, often without being aware of what they're doing. It's built into the animal. But what our modern culture has done, by way of modern media and beginning towards the end of the 19th century, is make a science out of exploiting this trait. The bottom line message of modern advertising is as I described it. Happiness is to be found in owning the right stuff, and the descendents of hunter gatherers now go shopping for the stuff the will fill the hole in their existences. I stole this out of the New Yorker: JOE HELLER True story, Word of Honor: Joseph Heller, an important and funny writer now dead, and I were at a party given by a billionaire on Shelter Island. I said, "Joe, how does it make you feel to know that our host only yesterday may have made more money than your novel 'Catch-22' has earned in its entire history?" And Joe said, "I've got something he can never have." And I said, "What on earth could that be, Joe?" And Joe said, "The knowledge that I've got enough." Not bad! Rest in peace! - Kurt Vonnegut
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Angie Coiro, On The Air
permalink #122 of 168: Cupido, Ergo Denego (robertflink) Sat 22 Jul 06 07:10
permalink #122 of 168: Cupido, Ergo Denego (robertflink) Sat 22 Jul 06 07:10
>and the descendents of hunter gatherers now go shopping for the stuff the will fill the hole in their existences.< I recall a TV documentary on a Inuit (I believe) village where the acknowledged best hunter was scorned by the other villagers because he displayed too much vanity while doing the traditional dancing depicting the hunt upon their return. I It is possible that that the bet hunter had been humble up until the TV cameras were set up whereupon he became quickly corrupted by civilization. I need to put another plug in for mass entertainment as an aspect of consumerism and not just the machinery and the commercial messages.
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Angie Coiro, On The Air
permalink #123 of 168: Steve Bjerklie (stevebj) Sat 22 Jul 06 08:32
permalink #123 of 168: Steve Bjerklie (stevebj) Sat 22 Jul 06 08:32
>>>I recall a TV documentary on a Inuit (I believe) village where the acknowledged best hunter was scorned by the other villagers because he displayed too much vanity while doing the traditional dancing depicting the hunt upon their return.<<< Heh. Someone else who could be scorned for the same reason but isn't: Barry Bonds.
Not being a sports person, I'm admittedly missing context on a lot of major sports stories. But I've wondered a lot about the people who are still cheering Bonds. Is integrity irrelevant to them? To Ed's question, last part first: I've heard lots of conjecture about the future of commercial radio. None of it is encouraging to me as far as reclaiming the fertile creative ground it once was. It's always been a commodity. Now, with few exceptions, it's nothing else. I believe it will always be around. The key question to me is whether eventually some stations might be allowed to pursue small, sharply-defined audience segments. For example, when I was doing radio in Hawaii, the station owners also owned a big-city classical radio station on the mainland. They didn't try to compete in the 12-24 demographic, like most others. They sold their airtime much the same way NPR seeks out underwriters - as a prestige image buy. They were very successful. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a half-dozen stations doing that now. On to public radio -
Public radio, contrary to what many believe, is very much in the ratings game. They're competing fiercely for dollars, whether it's called "advertising" or "underwriting". What we see from outside is the political pressure to conform to ideological guidelines. That's an endless wrestling match. Less obvious is public radio's pressure on itself to compete with commercial news and talk stations. In a sense, they do this to themselves as soon as they go all news/public affairs/talk. Fewer and fewer run classical or jazz programming, both of which were well-represented not that long ago. And eclectic programming is even more rare. Mind you, this isn't all bad. Programs like This American Life, Wait, Wait, and Says You came about in part because long-established shows like Morning Edition and ATC became more formulaic. Without pressure to please fickle audiences in significant numbers the programs wouldn't have to keep fresh at all. On the other hand, niche programming and the truly novel don't make the grade. They don't pull enough numbers. More and more rare is the station that will roll them anyway. KALW in San Francisco has a superb, unexpected program called Philosophy Talk. Honest to gosh, a program that discusses events and issues in a philosophical context. It's fabulous. But is it fabulous to enough people that it could compete in a strictly ratings-centric milieu? Will all programming eventually come down to that? As we say in the biz - stay tuned.
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