I'm anguished about Kossovo becasue IO think there is a sensible war that ought to be fought there, and when Clinton and Blair say they have no intention of doing so, I think that for once in their lives they are telling the truth. Europe (if not the USA) has a legitimate interest in getting stable frontiers for Serbia and should have been prepared to fight the Serbs over this since 1991. But we weren't. And we seem now committed to a policy of ethnicly cleansing Kossovo of its serbs when we go back in, which is bad, or doing nothing, which is just as bad. Simply bombing and hoping for a coup to replace Milosevic with someone with whom Clinton can do business is grossly immoral, asit was in Iraq. It's not going to work, either.
inkwell.vue.33
:
David Walley
permalink #277 of 351: These problems, too, will graduate (wendyg) Sat 24 Apr 99 04:37
permalink #277 of 351: These problems, too, will graduate (wendyg) Sat 24 Apr 99 04:37
Unless by "work" you mean that it will get all of the Balkans to unite in loathing of the US... wg
Yep. And to instantly have something deeply in common with most of the people of Iraq..
inkwell.vue.33
:
David Walley
permalink #279 of 351: International Relations as High School II (satirefreak) Sat 24 Apr 99 14:50
permalink #279 of 351: International Relations as High School II (satirefreak) Sat 24 Apr 99 14:50
Iraq? How about the entire world? We can't even get Canada to say anything nice about us. Reminds me of doing a summer semester in London in the 80s, and being accosted by hostile strangers every day. These people were delusional enough to think I would stand there and defend REAGAN, of all people. Like my votes counted in THOSE elections. An otherwise normal-looking woman threatened me with death, as I walked across the Waterloo Bridge on an otherwise glorious day. Hello? Needless to say, I don't make much of an effort at international travel anymore. I guess the U.S. is the "outcast" of the world's high school. Perhaps we should start shooting people...wait, we always are. Hmm.
<scribbled by silly Sat 7 Jul 12 16:48>
inkwell.vue.33
:
David Walley
permalink #281 of 351: My Point, and I Do Have One (to quote Ellen) (satirefreak) Sat 24 Apr 99 15:04
permalink #281 of 351: My Point, and I Do Have One (to quote Ellen) (satirefreak) Sat 24 Apr 99 15:04
This is from Michael Moore (of TV Nation and Roger & Me fame). I don't know if you're all on his mailing list, but I suspect that you'd enjoy it as much as I do. Excuse the formatting probs and length. There he was, The Great Consoler, standing at the podium, biting his lip, and speaking to a nation in shock. "We must teach our children to settle their differences through words and not weapons." Meanwhile, this same President, continues a daily slaughter of human beings. He says it's because the people he is bombing are doing their own slaughter. He has chosen to respond to their actions not with "words" but with death. Is it any wonder some of our children -- especially those in most pain, the "outcasts," the "uncool" -- decide to turn to murder and strike out against what they perceive to be a world against them? We live in a culture in America where violence is The Way We Get Things Done. If it works for their elders, why shouldn't the kids give it a try? As the kids at the high school near Denver huddled in locked classrooms in the hopes that they would not be the next one with a bullet in the face, they turned on the classroom TVs to watch the carnage and their own potential execution on CNN. One student, "Bob," got on his cell phone and called the local Channel 9 to give the on-air anchors a live play-by-play of events inside the school. "Bob," the anchors said after getting their precious, Emmy-winning sound bytes, "maybe you should hang up now and call 911." "Uh, oh, yeah," responded Bob, sounding a bit disappointed. His connection to the virtual world of television and cellular communication was more a part of his instinct to survive than his need to call the cops. Or maybe he trusted the people on TV more to get him out of there than the full-time armed officer who patrolled the halls of the high school. Not one gun of a well-armed force of police that showed up was able to prevent one death. A world away, kids just a few years older than Bob are dropping bombs that are killing kids just a few years younger than Bob. We know this because we watch it on TV. We learn why we're dropping these bombs also on TV. A man from the Pentagon shows us cool video game images of point-and-click targets that go "BOOM!" Cool. Another man in an important uniform shows us photographs from one of the Mother-of-All-Cameras, those satellites that sit thousands of miles up in space and have, I guess, REALLY long lenses. He shows us Photo #1. Here, he says, is "unbroken, untouched ground" from a week ago. Then he shows us Photo #2 where he points to the ground being "freshly turned-over, dug up, and replaced." This, he says, is evidence of "a mass grave." The reporters sit there like anxious pet dogs, lapping up the "revelations" and eagerly reporting them to us as "truth." But these journalists failed to ask the man in the important uniform one very important and obvious question: "Where's the middle photo?" If our satellite camera is always up there and running, capturing the before and after of a 300 foot piece of dirt, where's the "during" photo? The satellite cameras were snapping pictures the whole time, so where's the photos of the massacre itself? Where are the photos of the Serbs transporting the bodies to the "mass grave?" Where are the photos of the bodies being placed in the "mass grave" and covered with dirt? Where's just ONE photo of any of this? Was the satellite camera on the blink during all this activity? Was it only working before the ground was dug and then only after it was covered back up? Where are those photos, Mr. Clinton and Mr. Blair? Members of our so-called free press: Where is your courage to ask the obvious questions? Why won't you? Why are we being lied to? On the night of the Denver shootings, NATO (us) bombed the building containing the three Serbian TV entertainment networks. They didn't bomb the news station putting out the nightly propaganda until two nights later. They chose to bomb the entertainment networks first, one of which was showing "Wag the Dog" with its fake Albanian atrocity scenes, on a continuous loop. Yes! Bomb the entertainment networks, 'cause it's all just one big show for a violence-deprived public forced to sit through a year of mostly-unconsummated oral sex in oval offices. We'd much prefer the gore to Gore and Bill. "The Matrix," a film about a young hero in a trenchcoat who is able to blows away everything in sight, is the number one film this week in the country. And as the children of Denver ran from the trenchcoated killers, they were not met outside by nurturing adults who might take them into their arms to console and soothe them. No, the students were ordered to run out with their hands above their heads into the gun sights of the local S.W.A.T team who herded them up against a wall -- "KEEP YOUR HANDS WHERE WE CAN SEE THEM!" -- and frisked them with their other hand, the one not holding a gun to their backs. You see, the killer or killers might have been amongst them, so all the children were suspects, all potential murders in the eyes of the state. Yes, it's our children who are at fault, we are told -- They watch violent movies! They listen to violent misogynist music! They play violent video games! Soon, they may be asked to die a violent death on the fresh-but-recently-disturbed soil of the Balkans. They will be well prepared. Yours, Michael Moore MMFlint@aol.com http://www.theawfultruth.com
Bleh. Personally, I think the bombing of Serbia probably has had little connection with the disturbed Colorado teenagers freaking out on a shooting spree. One could argue that a blunted affect in regard to the value of human life links the two, but one would be ignoring a hell of a lot of complex causative issues. (Assuming one would like to support preventive measures to impede the recurrence of either event.)
Maybe it really is true that,"War is good business, invest your son." We certainly seem to be having our fillof it as the century grinds to a close. As for the "settling" of the Balkan situation which we didn't do in 1919, or 1893, either we "liberate the hell" out of them (whoever 'they' happen to be) or we sit on the sidelines and cheer---we could bet on the outcome, we could have box scores like on the sports page for the number of civillians and troops killed, we could turn it all into one huge electronic game---and at this point I ask where is Bill Gates vaunted technologicalknowhow is he can't make some electronic equivalent for war? But don't you all see? it gets right down to the fact that man LIKES war, and likes fighting and carnage and cluster bombs and rape and and pillage, and to stop wars we have to change human nature. Because we are human beings in a human universe do things like Kosovo and high school shootings occupy the same space in time. The only reason we all seem to excised about this is because we are more aware than ever before, just like those spy in the sky kinds of cameras which take time lapse photography. Human beings are just pretty flawed. Oh we try not to be, we have religion, we have sports, we had Joe Dimaggio and it doesn't do us any good. Maybe we need a theme park for violence, like Disney land. Or maybe better, we need a war zone, you know, some country which nobody wants which can be turned into a theme park where people can go and fight like in a lethal capture the flag contesdt. You have guys who don't want to play paintball to play war just like they did when they were kids. And people bet on the outcome? you have nations send in their a-teams against other a-teams and whoever wins gets the money and gets laid, for isn't that what war is really all about? getting the money and getting laid? I know, I'm supposed to be srous because this is a serious problem we're trying to speak to, but I can't, because if I don't have a sense of humor, albeit it black humor, I'll be lost. We can all type ourselves blue in cyberspace debating these issues to war and peace, but it's not productive as change,and change starts with individuals, not movements, small changes make for big changes. As for what goes on in high school, eveyrone knows what the game is but no one wants to change it. How do you change it, stop making high school divorced form life, stop making it its own spearate universe? Only problem is that high school life is omnipresent. In the words in Kurt Vonnegut," When you get to be our age, all of a sudden you realize that you (are) being ruled by the people you went to high school with...You all of a sudden catch on that life is nothing but high school. You make a fool of y9urself in high school, then you go in to college to learn how you should have actedin high school, and then you get out into real life, and that turns out to be high school all over again-class officers, cheerleaders, and all." Want to stop war? show those who make it that there's more money to be made in peace? Want to change high school, change the soceity which the adolescent is trying to fit into. is there a chance that any of this will work? What do you think? Does all this help sell Teenage nervous Breakdown? If I wasn't seeing this, do you think I would have written it? If you out there hadn;'t resonated to it, do you think that some of you would be so mad? I didn't write TNB to make a fast buck ( there's no such thing in writing), I wrote TNB because I HAD to, because what I was weeing in American culture had been eating away at me since the Seventies, actually the late Soixties when I stumbled onto the mechanism. I wrote TNB so that people would think and maybe do something in whatever small way they could to change how American culture works and effects the rest of the world at large. I wanted to sitrr up the pot (maybe smoke a little too). I think I've succeeded in that way. Because it's not just high school, it's all about Bosnia and kids with guns, and rap music and the glorification of violence and the objectification of women by men and by women with a grudge. Thinking is not fun, and in this age it's painful, and it befdause we've avoided the pain of thoght that we seem to keep getting ourselves ihto such situations both herein our schools and abroad on the vaorus kiling fields which world politics provides us with.
Tell us about Ernie Kovacs.
<scribbled by silly Sat 7 Jul 12 16:48>
Ernie Kovacs? David G.? that comes out of the blue. What exactly do you want to know? I don't know whether he fits into this discussion(??) he was a Hungarian and was very incised by the Hungarian uprising of 1956 (as were many other people). I don't think he would have reacted well to Vietnam or the other wars that came aferwrds though I don't think he was particular politcal, save for being a Hungarian and all. I can't commment on Neal Gabler's column because I don't really read the LA Times (do people really do that in LA)---forget I said thqat, I was just being East coast and no one needs that here.
Didn't you write a book about Ernie Kovacs?
The Caboosta Kid was an expert at freeing political prisoners.
I think it's Kapusta Kid, and Kapusta is a kind of sausage (but what the hell do I know, I'm not Hungarian, I"m Russian-Jewish). The berst part about writing a book about EK was that it seemed at least to me that he approved. I always had the feeling that he was benignly involved in The Ernie Kovacs Phile, that he was dumping cigar ashes over my typewriter, for in reality his spirit seemed to consume me and my style, so the book (if you can find it) is very Kovacsian in its intent.
Thanks for the spelling correction. The way I remember the Kid is as a master of jailbreaks. He was always being captured, sentenced to a million years of imprisonment, and busting out again. I think he might have come in handy in Kosovo as an impromptu underground railroad manager.
Say, that's a clever way of tying together two disperate subjects? I only remember the name of the show but either I don't think I was old enough when listening or it was after I went to school. He used to have a radio show in the mid fifties and strange televison shows thereafter. I know that he ws definitely ahead of the curve of the normal tv mentality though it would be interesting to see whether someone with his kind of sensibility would make it on network tv today. I think he would make a big splash on HBO, something like a cross between Mnty Python and Saturday Night Dead. But really, I think that EK was more into cultural politics---his own than anything we could put our brains around. He would not have had any patience with the Soho art scene in NYC, the La Cienega gallery scene in LA, he would have been a saint of the neo-beatniks and expresso coffee drinkers, the poetry slammers if they managed to take their language to the visual level---maybe. He was ahead of his time, 'the' head of his time I'm thinking. After all these years, I still miss him, I was hoping to grow old with him and his strange visions. Maybe some other guy will do that, and maybe he'll be the manager to get everyone out of Kosovo that going ashore.
David G.: I wrote the book on Ernie Kovacs. It was variously called Nothing in Moderation and thereafter by two other publishers, The Ernie Kovacs Phile. I wrote it three years after the Zappa book---you know, guys with a mustache and the fadct that he was an influence on FZ and many of my generation. It had a good run coming out three different times under three different publishers. Somethng like I suppose, the present day writer refuses to die." I had a great time, probably the best time researching and meeting people. It was all good energy, and Ernie's style rubbed off on the writing of the book as well. I think that it can be had at better college andpublic libraries everywhere. Best of all is that when it first came out in '75, it ws a big hit with the showbiz community in Los Angeles, I got the lead review of the first issue of the LA Times Book Review. The opening line was,"Despite the fact that this book appears to have been written by an ehtuusiastic illiterate and copy-edited by a near-sighted axe-murderer, this book deserves your attention." (BTW, the book wasn't copy-edited and the next job my editor had was teaching writing at Rollins College, wouldn't ya know it.)
<scribbled by silly Tue 27 Apr 99 14:11>
ok,<silly>. how am I supposed to read your scribble? Is this a quesiton, an answer an observation? light me a cigar if you can tell me
Sometimes a typo is just a typo.
inkwell.vue.33
:
David Walley
permalink #296 of 351: attention all eefms members and passing strangers (dvdgwalley) Thu 29 Apr 99 07:44
permalink #296 of 351: attention all eefms members and passing strangers (dvdgwalley) Thu 29 Apr 99 07:44
David G and all other interested partiese: in case anyone's interested in Kovacs, the other day I was introduced to http://www.users.interport.net/~manaben/kovacs.html the onofficial Ernie Kovacs website put together by a sielnt film maker, commedian and all-round Kovacs loonie. Very well done and with much love.
<scribbled by silly Sat 7 Jul 12 16:48>
inkwell.vue.33
:
David Walley
permalink #298 of 351: so what's Flo and Eddie have to do with the price of tomatoes in (dvdgwalley) Fri 30 Apr 99 06:55
permalink #298 of 351: so what's Flo and Eddie have to do with the price of tomatoes in (dvdgwalley) Fri 30 Apr 99 06:55
dunno about that, they were both pretty bright guys...Howard was a math prodigy and now teaches communication courses at USC I believe. I think by now he has his doctorate though he still goes on the road with Mark---but what does this have to do with what we were talking about <silly>, give me a reference somewhere and we can continue. I'd much prefer to talk about FZ or Kovacs or TNB than Kosoco, teenage killers running amuck in the halls with automatic rifles and bombs, or even the Martix. We're living in curious end times, and I for one will be damn glad when the millenium is behind us because all this perturbation of the biosphere is pretty dangerous. If I weren't so personally involved, I'd be amused. I'm not. I've got four kids and I have not a clue what kind of a world they are going to inherit. I don't know whether they can change what's about to happen. I don't know whether they can. But on the other hand, it's been going along in its lurching way for recorded history at least and probably longer. This is the way the world is more or less I suppose. It doesn't mean I have to like it
<scribbled by silly Sat 7 Jul 12 16:48>
No doubt it's a moveable feast in terms of absuirdity. As for Mark and Howard's profanities, I think it came naturally to them, no one was twisting their arms to do Frank's stuff, Anyway the pay was good, the got their groupies and had some fun. Which was what the Turtles as a band were all about. At one time JIm Pons was playing with the Mothers too, so it was anunofficial Turtles cover band. As for Kovavcs, he didn't make it into the Sixties or the Seventies, died January 18th, 1962 or so, car accident wrapped himself around a pole on Santa Monica Boulevard, seems he hit a skid in the rain while while driving a Corvair, the poor son of a bitch. Edie paid off his IRS debts---it's in the book The Enrie Kovacs Phile, or if you're lucky and fortunate, you can pick up the earlier version known as Nothing in Moderaton. I have no comment on Kosovo. It's way beyond beyond, nor do I have anything to say about the LA Times save that it always struck me as a vehicle for Buffy Chandler and her social-climbing friends. Too bad Mort Sahl isn't around with his newspaper humor. I mean who needs Saturday night Live when we have CNN?
Members: Enter the conference to participate. All posts made in this conference are world-readable.