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Paul Midler, Poorly Made in China
permalink #101 of 150: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Thu 30 Jul 09 04:35
permalink #101 of 150: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Thu 30 Jul 09 04:35
I was referring to the West in general, not just to the U.S.
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permalink #102 of 150: paulmidler (paulmidler-1) Thu 30 Jul 09 06:44
permalink #102 of 150: paulmidler (paulmidler-1) Thu 30 Jul 09 06:44
Cynthia - There weren't too many stories didn't make the book, but one comes to mind this morning... I wrote about a US client's efforts to manufacture health and beauty care (HBC) products in China. At one point, the client wanted the factory to look into creating a dry-stick deodorant. The factory was highly motivated to try, especially because no one in China was doing so (the Chinese prefer roll-on, if they use deodorant at all). Anyway, because samples of dry-stick were difficult to come by, I gave the factory one of the few that I had carried with me from the US. The factory was never able to pull off a production sample, but they placed my deodorant stick in their showroom anyway -- as if it were an example of their expertise. Fast forward a couple of months, I ran out of deodorant. I tried to recover my "sample," but the factory refused to let me take it. I reminded them that it was mine, that I had paid for it, that I had physically brought it into the country for my own personal use. It didn't matter. They insisted that it was now theirs, and they went as far as to lock the showroom to prevent me from slipping the thing into my pocket. They knew that they had no argument, but they fought hard anyway -- because they wanted it. I wrote in the book about how factories in China "fake" entire showrooms by displaying items that they don't actually produce. Reminds me of one other, related story. I mention a Turk. He also told me something else, something that also didn't make the book. He talked about how he had once wired $50,000 to the wrong factory. The factory owner that he had mistakenly sent the money to was considered a friend, but there were no orders in process, and the "friend" tried to take advantage of the situation. Instead of wiring the money back, he stalled and made excuses. He suggested that since the funds were already in his account, the importer should consider placing an order anyway. Contract manufacturing doesn't work that way. The importer had no orders to place, so the factory owner was out of luck on that account. Long story short, it took months to get the money back, even though the Chinese industrialist was considered a friend. I remember how the man from Turkey put it: "Money changes them," he said.
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permalink #103 of 150: paulmidler (paulmidler-1) Thu 30 Jul 09 07:51
permalink #103 of 150: paulmidler (paulmidler-1) Thu 30 Jul 09 07:51
Barry - On the point of multiculturalism, Han Chinese are said to account for 92% of the country. This might be a little misleading, though, since the 8% are in geographically distinct regions. In most of the places an importer does business in Mainland China, the rate approaches close to 100%. There is far more on-the-ground talk about differences among Chinese due to province of origin. For background on Han Chinese... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Chinese
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permalink #104 of 150: uber-muso hipster hyperbole (pjm) Thu 30 Jul 09 09:20
permalink #104 of 150: uber-muso hipster hyperbole (pjm) Thu 30 Jul 09 09:20
A lot of the Spanish conquest of the west was led by Catholic missionaries. The Mormon's were warred against on a smaller scale.
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Paul Midler, Poorly Made in China
permalink #105 of 150: Daniel (dfowlkes) Thu 30 Jul 09 12:58
permalink #105 of 150: Daniel (dfowlkes) Thu 30 Jul 09 12:58
<scribbled by dfowlkes Tue 3 Jul 12 10:14>
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permalink #106 of 150: cyndigo (cynthiabarnes) Thu 30 Jul 09 13:15
permalink #106 of 150: cyndigo (cynthiabarnes) Thu 30 Jul 09 13:15
"CHINESE MANUFACTURERS STOLE MY DEODORANT" I see a pulp novel here.
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permalink #107 of 150: Linda Castellani (castle) Thu 30 Jul 09 15:23
permalink #107 of 150: Linda Castellani (castle) Thu 30 Jul 09 15:23
Or a National Enquirer headline with a photo of Paul ducking into a limo and avoiding paparazzi as he leaves the manufacturer's plant. So, Paul, I don't think you really addressed my question about media interest. If there hasn't been any, do you have plans to stir some up? And, there's something about this discussion that I can't quite put my finger on, as if the stories are ending before the punchline. Maybe it's that you want to promote your book while also carefully not treading on too many toes? Also, I have to say that I felt so sorry for poor, beleaguered Bernie. What has happened to him and his company since the book was written?
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permalink #108 of 150: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Thu 30 Jul 09 16:28
permalink #108 of 150: Brian Slesinsky (bslesins) Thu 30 Jul 09 16:28
Speaking of counterfeiting: A cautionary tale from China "[...] a group of BMCs senior Chinese managers had unbeknown to BMCs German managers set up their own company within the advertising and exhibition business and, Mr Zuercher and the rest of the companys management claim, siphoned off its most lucrative advertising contracts. [...] "When he joined, it appeared that BMC had lost most of its clients and was barely able to pay its bills. But after the anonymous tip, Mr Zuercher visited the central Beijing railway station and found the place covered in advertisements from clients the company had supposedly lost. "That was when he mounted the raid and found marketing material and other documents indicating that seven former and current employees of the companys advertising subsidiary, including Mr Li and his former classmates, had set up a shadow business in August 2008, called BMC Heli. This company even used a logo that was almost identical to BMCs." http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e4103832-7a87-11de-8c34-00144feabdc0.html (registration required; I was able to get in for free.)
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permalink #109 of 150: paulmidler (paulmidler-1) Fri 31 Jul 09 07:02
permalink #109 of 150: paulmidler (paulmidler-1) Fri 31 Jul 09 07:02
Hi Linda - There's been media interest in the book, sure. At the top of this discussion, I listed a few book reviews. I'm not sure what you're getting at exactly. The publisher, of course, has a role in letting the media know that the book has been published. In the end, a book must find its own way. If one person picks up the book and then proceeds to tell ten people about it, that's a marketing plan. Most of what moves a book is word of mouth. I like your second comment: "There's something about this discussion that I can't quite put my finger on, as if the stories are ending before the punchline. Maybe it's that you want to promote your book while also carefully not treading on too many toes?" Others have said something similar, but regarding the book. Maybe I have suggested "A leads to B leads to C, and, therefore..." I don't offer a lot of solutions at the end. Maybe that is because I am not convinced that there are any. Some are left feeling uneasy by this book, and maybe that was part of the point. It was how I felt after working in China manufacturing for so long. Let's look at importers for a moment to highlight this point about "can't win." Those that did not go to China were considered fools. Their production costs were too high because they were no longer competitive in a place like North America. Those importers who went to China had their hats handed to them. In some cases, importers who went to China found that their suppliers turned into competitors. Working with China for some groups was like quicksand. The more they moved around, the quicker they sank.
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permalink #110 of 150: Ari Davidow (ari) Fri 31 Jul 09 07:33
permalink #110 of 150: Ari Davidow (ari) Fri 31 Jul 09 07:33
I'm commenting late, but I am having a lot of trouble with some of the themes here. We're sitting here at the 100th anniversary (or some such number) of the publication of "The Jungle." Manufacturing external to China has a long and =continuing= history wherein people cut corners and are quite ready to screw the customer if it saves some money, except to the extent that there are laws and enforcement sufficient to make complying with the laws competitively acceptable. (If you are the only person following a law, and it costs you money, you go out of business.) Over a hundred years after the triangle fire, dozens of people were killed in a poulty plant in the south because the doors were locked and a fire broke out inside. There is no shortage of shoddy manufacturing here in the US, but there are =some= laws being enforced, and its cheaper to do a lot of manufacturing elsewhere. And we know that some manufacturing in China is accomplished to acceptable standards. So, are Chinese really uniquely bad, or is there a combination of entrepreneurship, weak laws, and weak/nonexistent enforcement? You seem to be saying that they are uniquely bad, but that leaves me with the odd, not-matching-reality vision that all of the predatory work practices that exist in the US today must be done by ethnic Chinese, and didn't exist prior to some takeover of US manufacturing by same? I don't think that is a defensible view of reality.
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permalink #111 of 150: paulmidler (paulmidler-1) Fri 31 Jul 09 09:22
permalink #111 of 150: paulmidler (paulmidler-1) Fri 31 Jul 09 09:22
Ari - Glad that you have made these further points related to product safety. We are on the issue, again, of whether China's case is unique. One glaring piece of evidence cay be found in the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) setting up offices in a foreign country for the first time. US Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) now follows suit: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i1CU5YW1IGWQeQQ3hkd7efc5JSEg D99OU0AG2 This has never happened in world history (i.e., that a leading economy has felt compelled to set up offices in a foreign market). It is possible that this was done for political reasons, because politicians wanted to be seen as doing "something." Then again, we could be setting up offices out of genuine need. Why have we never done this before? If you read my book, you will understand that these agencies don't stand a chance of guaranteeing product safety. If an importer that is fully engaged at a manufacturing facility cannot get the job done, how much help can it be to conduct infrequent inspections? China's case is different, as I show in my book. There isn't enough space to go into all of the arguments, but one factor that is cultural that is worth consideration is this "counterfeit culture" pervasive in China. There is a value placed on the ability to mimic higher quality levels. One of the reasons that China wins so much business is that manufacturers find ways in which to produce a seemingly valuable product at a low price. Importers suspect that there is something wrong, but pressing for details means in many cases uncovering bad news. Better not to know, these importers figure. China's case is also circumstantial. It is now at the crossroads of international trade, and this position has contributed to quality fade. Not long ago, if a supplier was caught in some sort of production shenanigan, it might be forced to take a loss on a shipment. Today, if an importer rejects a production run due to quality issues, the factory can unload the bad goods through an extremely large network of agents that are on the ground in China. In addition to secondary markets (e.g., Middle East, South America, Russia), China's own domestic market has grown to the point where it can swallow inferior goods, if necessary. When the "cost" of pulling a fast one is lowered, the incidence of game-playing is raised. It's economics, really. The book is book-length. These posts are going to be shorter, naturally. Other issues that you raise also play a part. Legal structures are lacking. Enforcement is nil. One last point. You should be careful to lump in cases that are accidental with those that are willful. You will get people who look at the melamine case and will say "the US has product failures, as well." It's like someone talking about the murder rate in a given population and defending it by saying that some have died by slipping in the bathtub. In the book, I make a point of separating out the more willful instances from the accidents due to ignorance, etc.
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permalink #112 of 150: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Fri 31 Jul 09 10:16
permalink #112 of 150: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Fri 31 Jul 09 10:16
Thanks for all your interesting thoughts here. I think I'm gonna go buy the book.
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permalink #113 of 150: paralyzed by a question like that (debunix) Fri 31 Jul 09 10:23
permalink #113 of 150: paralyzed by a question like that (debunix) Fri 31 Jul 09 10:23
Me too.
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permalink #114 of 150: descend into a fractal hell of meta-truthiness (jmcarlin) Fri 31 Jul 09 10:48
permalink #114 of 150: descend into a fractal hell of meta-truthiness (jmcarlin) Fri 31 Jul 09 10:48
I wonder how Lenovo is managing to get decent quality on laptops? And could that be a model for others to follow?
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permalink #115 of 150: David Albert (aslan) Fri 31 Jul 09 11:02
permalink #115 of 150: David Albert (aslan) Fri 31 Jul 09 11:02
That could be a more general question: are there ANY good products coming reliably out of China, and if so what are they and how is it being done?
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permalink #116 of 150: paulmidler (paulmidler-1) Fri 31 Jul 09 11:24
permalink #116 of 150: paulmidler (paulmidler-1) Fri 31 Jul 09 11:24
With these last two comments, we return to a familiar point: "If *some* of the products out of China are good, then maybe we don't have a problem." The analogy I have made before is the murder statistic out of Philadelphia. Four hundred citizens were murdered in a single year, most of them by handguns. I could easily suggest that million were not killed, so the city therefore has no problem. Please note that you do not have to be personally shot at in order to admit that your city has a gun problem. By the same token, we do not need a 100% defect rate in order for there to be a serious problem in China. And it is possible for some products to be excellent, while others are faulty. In China, there are many who will say something along these lines that there are good and bad people wherever you go. To this comment, someone I once knew responded: "Yes, but the ratio is killing me." It is that ratio between good and bad that we worry about, and of those product failures we have to see what kind of problem we have. Not all product failures are the same. On the low end, you have products that fail due to human error, or machine error. Slightly above that you have cases of negligence. Above that you have instances of corner cutting. This might involve laziness on the shop floor, or something along those lines. Well above that you have these incredible instances of product manipulation, where factory owners have orchestrated frightening cases of fraud. These industrialists have sought to circumvent third-party laboratory tests that are in place to help everyone. What makes these cases even more disturbing is that the savings are so small, and that the hazards to human life were significant. Add to it the fact that large numbers of individuals knew what was going on, and these cases appear even more insidious. Quality problems are not all alike.
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permalink #117 of 150: paulmidler (paulmidler-1) Fri 31 Jul 09 11:34
permalink #117 of 150: paulmidler (paulmidler-1) Fri 31 Jul 09 11:34
Not Lenovo, but a big-brand company... http://blogs.consumerreports.org/safety/2009/07/haier-fined-587500-for-failure -to-report-defective-fan-model-ftm140gg.html
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permalink #118 of 150: Rik Elswit (rik) Fri 31 Jul 09 11:45
permalink #118 of 150: Rik Elswit (rik) Fri 31 Jul 09 11:45
<scribbled by rik Fri 31 Jul 09 12:24>
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permalink #119 of 150: descend into a fractal hell of meta-truthiness (jmcarlin) Fri 31 Jul 09 12:01
permalink #119 of 150: descend into a fractal hell of meta-truthiness (jmcarlin) Fri 31 Jul 09 12:01
> With these last two comments, we return to a familiar point: "If > *some* of the products out of China are good, then maybe we don't have > a problem." That's not what I asked. What I asked and am interested in is HOW they're managing to pull off quality given the embedded quality problems China has.
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permalink #120 of 150: Every Acid Dealer Gets Busted Eventually (rik) Fri 31 Jul 09 12:24
permalink #120 of 150: Every Acid Dealer Gets Busted Eventually (rik) Fri 31 Jul 09 12:24
I only posted part of 118. Here's the whole thing. Yamaha, Takamine and Guild are building good acoustic guitars over there for 1/3 of what they'd cost over here. They are a step up from the Japanese and Korean budget boxes that the major manufacturers were selling as budget boxes in the past.
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permalink #121 of 150: Ari Davidow (ari) Fri 31 Jul 09 12:38
permalink #121 of 150: Ari Davidow (ari) Fri 31 Jul 09 12:38
That's the thing. There may be a difference in volume and in secondary markets in which to dump defective goods, but I gotta say that the history of trade, especially trade since the industrial revolution is so very much about just what you describe as "unique" to China. I don't have a quarrel with how worrisome this is due to the volume of stuff that China makes; my quarrel is letting the scale obscure what seems to be normative human nature, now, for the first time, on a scale large enough that it matters hugely more than it ever did (much the same way that we can finally put enough CO2 in the air to make global warming an issue, or can finally create dead zones in our oceans due to concentrations of pollutants on the one hand, or over-fishing on the other). The reason this matters is because your thesis seems to lead to the plausibility that if manufacturing were moved from China to elsewherein the world these problems would lessen or disappear. I'd say that is demonstrably untrue, despite an infrastructure that makes it easier in China right now to get away with shoddy quality.
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permalink #122 of 150: Dan Flanery (sunspot) Fri 31 Jul 09 13:25
permalink #122 of 150: Dan Flanery (sunspot) Fri 31 Jul 09 13:25
>I wonder how Lenovo is managing to get decent quality on >laptops? According to Consumer Reports, roughly 20% of all laptops bought between 2004 and 2008 have had serious problems or required a repair. This does not sound like decent quality to me. >if manufacturing were moved from China to elsewherein >the world these problems would lessen or disappear. Well, did we get melamine-laced baby formula and pet food from the US, Canada or even Mexico? No. So I'd say it's pretty obvious that the quality of manufactured goods coming out of China is often disastrously poor, and that at least some of the worst examples we've experienced so far are the result of fraud. I mean, has *this* happened lately in the US, Canada or Germany, Japan, France or the UK? http://surferjerry.com/weird/shanghai-building-falls-over/ Beijing, we have a problem . . .
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permalink #123 of 150: Barry Warren Polley (barryp) Fri 31 Jul 09 13:47
permalink #123 of 150: Barry Warren Polley (barryp) Fri 31 Jul 09 13:47
I wonder about the Lenovo example too, because it's an example of a brand that rides on its reputation - for reliability and build quality. When IBM 'sold out' the Thinkpad line, there was a great deal of anxiety expressed in the tech press about imminent quality collapse, which didn't happen. I'm loving the T61p I'm typing on right now. Two thoughts occur to me w/ this example: (1) Lenovo isn't an anonymous supplier to another company, as the book's King Chemical was. The purchaser of the final product is generally guided by trust in the brand and the supply chain isn't diffuse. (2) Lenovo doesn't make all of its product decisions based on getting the lowest possible price. To the contrary - if they started doing that they'd lose the cachet that allows them to charge far more than their competitors do for similar products. Customers pay their Thinkpad tax willingly but would stop doing so if quality declined from a chase to the bottom.
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permalink #124 of 150: Dan Flanery (sunspot) Fri 31 Jul 09 14:00
permalink #124 of 150: Dan Flanery (sunspot) Fri 31 Jul 09 14:00
Good points regarding Lenovo, though like I noted above, laptop quality in general just ain't that great.
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permalink #125 of 150: paulmidler (paulmidler-1) Fri 31 Jul 09 14:23
permalink #125 of 150: paulmidler (paulmidler-1) Fri 31 Jul 09 14:23
"...your thesis seems to lead to the plausibility that if manufacturing were moved from China to elsewhere in the world these problems would lessen or disappear." I did not say this. It is not a message from the book. As far as themes go, you might try instead: "Culture does matter." Let's set aside the cultural issue for a moment, though. All things being equal, do you really want to have products made on the other side of the planet? When something goes wrong at the factory at 2pm, you can't just pick up a phone and talk to the head office because it's 2am in New York. Even if you didn't have the linguistic and cultural gaps (which truly are significant), the time zone difference alone is enough to have potential negative impact on quality. Related to the point raised by JM, one way to raise quality is to throw money at the problem. Bear in mind that the reason importers shifted orders to such an unlikely economy was in order to *save* money, not spend it. Many who moved production to China found that there were no real savings. In other cases where there were savings, foreign operators found that it wasn't worth it. Was interviewed last year for a story about a Germany plush toy manufacturer that decided to move its production back home. Here is the article: http://www.reuters.com/article/inDepthNews/idUSL0357005220080711?sp=true
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