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Marjorie Ingall Mamaleh Knows Best
permalink #26 of 61: Amy Keyishian (superamyk) Fri 16 Sep 16 08:35
permalink #26 of 61: Amy Keyishian (superamyk) Fri 16 Sep 16 08:35
<< blindsided in college by no longer being the smartest guy in the room.>> This was EVERYONE I went to college with. We &?used to talk about it late at night instead of studying. How impossible it was to suddenly realize we DID have to work hard, that everything DOESN'T come easily, and here's the part that bugged us the most -- that our instinct was to back away from anything that didn't come easy. I dunno if we blamed our parents, tho. (Well, I did.) I don't know if we just happened to be the same kind of smartlazy kids and that's why we ended up friends. Anyway I think this might be a bit of what Ruth is worried about. And I worried about it with a family member, who never learned to ride a bike and now doesn't want to learn to drive. That kind of thing.
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Marjorie Ingall Mamaleh Knows Best
permalink #27 of 61: Ruth Bernstein (ruthb) Fri 16 Sep 16 11:16
permalink #27 of 61: Ruth Bernstein (ruthb) Fri 16 Sep 16 11:16
To answer obizuth's question, that also happened to my elder brother, who called my parents from college once and accused them of not "making him study more" or offering him the various avenues to advancement that many of his classmates had benefited from. They just laughed and laughed, because he was really not the kind of kid one could make do anything, and in this way we are pretty much all the same in my family. I guess I just don't want to get that phone call, especially since we live in a place where he could learn just about anything.
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Marjorie Ingall Mamaleh Knows Best
permalink #28 of 61: behind on BADGES! (obizuth) Fri 16 Sep 16 17:45
permalink #28 of 61: behind on BADGES! (obizuth) Fri 16 Sep 16 17:45
ha, i am laughing at the notion of a kid calling a parent from college to yell at them for "not making me study more"!
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Marjorie Ingall Mamaleh Knows Best
permalink #29 of 61: Julie Sherman (julieswn) Sat 17 Sep 16 12:18
permalink #29 of 61: Julie Sherman (julieswn) Sat 17 Sep 16 12:18
I don't have a question but I want to say that I love all the stories about Maxie and Josie and I am glad the stories survived Josie's vetting. I also love the "What questions did you ask today?" idea. If I had kids, I would certainly use it.
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Marjorie Ingall Mamaleh Knows Best
permalink #30 of 61: Amy Keyishian (superamyk) Sat 17 Sep 16 14:04
permalink #30 of 61: Amy Keyishian (superamyk) Sat 17 Sep 16 14:04
Ruth, if I may butt in in the time-honored Jewish parent tradition, you are gonna get that call. From someone. And it's gonna be about something. The end.
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Marjorie Ingall Mamaleh Knows Best
permalink #31 of 61: Amy Keyishian (superamyk) Sat 17 Sep 16 14:10
permalink #31 of 61: Amy Keyishian (superamyk) Sat 17 Sep 16 14:10
Let's talk about jewish day school! I agonized over this. It was made clear to me that our local, very well regarded jewish day school would give us a hefty scholarship. I yapped about this to anyone who would listen for a few months. To hedge my bets, I went down to register Penny for transitional kindergarten, and the secretary said she was registered for a really wonderful teacher, and why didn't I just give it a year and switch over if I didn't like the experience. She went to TK in a very tough school where there were lock-downs and general misery, and she had a great experience because that teacher was outstanding. By then I had been mooning around our local public school enough to realize what you did, Marjorie: The classrooms looked different, and I wanted her to have breadth of experience. But I absolutely mourn the loss of that Hebrew fluency and that all-in experience. Yes, she cries every Christmas. Yes, she is self-conscious about being one of four Jews at her school. But when Trump started being Trump, she instantly recoiled from him because she knew her Muslim classmates would be harmed by his policies, so the personal was political. Yadda yadda yadda, I guess my question is ... I don't know if I had one! Maybe we just talk about it. One thing I noticed is that the day-school kids never go to shul ("uch, we get enough of that"), and we do because that's all we got. I don't know if that's true anywhere else.
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Marjorie Ingall Mamaleh Knows Best
permalink #32 of 61: Julie Sherman (julieswn) Sat 17 Sep 16 17:49
permalink #32 of 61: Julie Sherman (julieswn) Sat 17 Sep 16 17:49
My nieces went to that well regarded Jewish day school of which you speak, up until 7th grade. Neither of them finished it through the eighth grade. Both wanted to switch to public school. One is in high school and other is about to finish college and while, yes, they know Hebrew and both had lovely B'not Mitzvah, and both are very clear in their Jewishness, I would say that both are stronger, more connected feminists than they are Jews.
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Marjorie Ingall Mamaleh Knows Best
permalink #33 of 61: Julie Sherman (julieswn) Sat 17 Sep 16 17:51
permalink #33 of 61: Julie Sherman (julieswn) Sat 17 Sep 16 17:51
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Marjorie Ingall Mamaleh Knows Best
permalink #34 of 61: Cliff Dweller (robinsline) Sat 17 Sep 16 18:11
permalink #34 of 61: Cliff Dweller (robinsline) Sat 17 Sep 16 18:11
Thanks for the reminder. I have posted it on Facebook. Picking up my copy of the book tomorrow.
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Marjorie Ingall Mamaleh Knows Best
permalink #35 of 61: Amy Keyishian (superamyk) Sun 18 Sep 16 10:35
permalink #35 of 61: Amy Keyishian (superamyk) Sun 18 Sep 16 10:35
Oh! I never made that connection, Julie! I love how entwined our lives are even though we're across the country. It's a lovely school. That's an interesting perspective.
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Marjorie Ingall Mamaleh Knows Best
permalink #36 of 61: behind on BADGES! (obizuth) Sun 18 Sep 16 11:25
permalink #36 of 61: behind on BADGES! (obizuth) Sun 18 Sep 16 11:25
i too struggled with not sending my kids to jewish day school. i was very smitten with the hannah senesh school in brooklyn, which wasn't far from us on the F train. i visited three times before ultimately enrolling josie in public school -- for me, the true diversity of our neighborhood schools was the big draw. (here in nyc's east village we have four progressive diverse wonderful public elementary schools. i realize not everyone has this benefit.) we do shul and hebrew school, and judaism is very much a home-centric religion -- so much lovely ritutal and noshing to do at home! -- but for me the single entity that made my kids love being jewish was overnight sleepaway camp. so much evidence that jewish camp is a huge positive force in jewish identity formation. (see stats at the Foundation for Jewish Camp's web site.) it's still way expensive but less than day school, with a stronger correlation to positive jewish feelings. i do note in the book that it saddens me, a former jewish day school attendee, to see my kids writing hebrew letters. they don't even know script and write in wavering block print capitals. their writing looks like ransom notes.
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Marjorie Ingall Mamaleh Knows Best
permalink #37 of 61: Ruth Bernstein (ruthb) Sun 18 Sep 16 15:16
permalink #37 of 61: Ruth Bernstein (ruthb) Sun 18 Sep 16 15:16
I think JDS is not all it's cracked up to be, and I send my kids to one. I love that they have a solid Hebrew education, and I like that they are asked to work up to the top of their aptitude. I do not love my particular JDS because of its insular and materialistic vibe, but I think that in my neighborhood that might be difficult to escape, wherever they go to school. On the other hand, I do love the fact that our kids can fully participate in the extra-curricular activities and the school plays, etc. at the Jewish Day School where in public school they would always be a little left out. Both parents in our family work in very multicultural jobs and our kids' hobbies are the type that focus on skill rather than social class, so they are exposed to a lot of different cultures through those activities, but I see them forget that not everyone has the advantages they do all the time and it rankles. My son talked to one of the counselors at his computer camp about being a CIT and would rather spend the summer at Jewish camp (yay Jewish camp) but one of the reasons, he told me, was that he thought he really needed to speak Mandarin in order to be a CIT at the computer camp. I am sure this is not true but it is a window into how he sees the world of his interests.
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Marjorie Ingall Mamaleh Knows Best
permalink #38 of 61: Julie Sherman (julieswn) Sun 18 Sep 16 19:17
permalink #38 of 61: Julie Sherman (julieswn) Sun 18 Sep 16 19:17
If you are reading this and are not a WELL member, you can participate by sending comments or questions to inkwell at well.com. Hosts will post your comments here.
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Marjorie Ingall Mamaleh Knows Best
permalink #39 of 61: With catlike tread (sumac) Mon 19 Sep 16 14:59
permalink #39 of 61: With catlike tread (sumac) Mon 19 Sep 16 14:59
It's a wonderful book. Really sound thinking about what we should try to raise ur kids to be. And I love Gluckel or Hameln! Had never heard of her!
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Marjorie Ingall Mamaleh Knows Best
permalink #40 of 61: behind on BADGES! (obizuth) Mon 19 Sep 16 15:31
permalink #40 of 61: behind on BADGES! (obizuth) Mon 19 Sep 16 15:31
GLUCKEL! diarist who you would totally want to sit next to at a wedding. total gossip while saying she was not gossiping (my teen taught me that "tea" meme? you know, kermit the frog sipping tea to symbolize "i'm not talking shit but i am totally talking shit"? i don't know why, it's a thing among the youth. but not anymore, since i know about it.) anyway, Gluckel was a late 17th and early 18th century businesswoman who took over her husband's import/export biz after he died very young, sadly, of sepsis. she expanded the product lines, traveled throughout europe to places then deemed unsafe or unfriendly to women, and cared very much about raising moral kids. she is one of several vintage jewish women in the book who very much counter the stereotype of the jewish mother as hectoring, nagging, neurotic, cling-y annoyance with no life apart from her children. some other good ones: rebecca gomez, who in 18th century new england built a chocolate business long before Baker's, which bills itself as "america's oldest chocolate brand" (HUSH, BAKER'S), and amalia beer, a hostess with the mostest in 19th century berlin, who hobnobbed with the enlightenment fabulous while still maintaining a strong jewish identity.
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Marjorie Ingall Mamaleh Knows Best
permalink #41 of 61: Julie Sherman (julieswn) Mon 19 Sep 16 16:23
permalink #41 of 61: Julie Sherman (julieswn) Mon 19 Sep 16 16:23
Not a mother, or at least I don't think she had any children, but an amazing Jewish woman of the 19th century, Ernestine Louise Rose. She was an early advocate for women's rights, an abolitionist and an inventor. She invented a room deodorizer and earned money by selling it. I read an early biography of her by Yuri Suhl, a family friend, who also wrote the wonderful "One Foot in America" and "You Should Only be Happy" about the Jewish immigrant experience. I wrote a paper about her in eighth grade. She even has a wikipedia entry.
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Marjorie Ingall Mamaleh Knows Best
permalink #42 of 61: behind on BADGES! (obizuth) Mon 19 Sep 16 18:51
permalink #42 of 61: behind on BADGES! (obizuth) Mon 19 Sep 16 18:51
one thing i discovered while researching the book was that many many important jewish women -- including many who worked on improving the lives of children -- did not have children. like many abolitionists. it is very hard to be out on the front lines of the movement when you have to make dinner and dentist's appointments. my friend gayle forman, who also has a book out that deals with the pressure on mothers (tho hers is a novel, Leave Me) (it's great, you should read it) notes that there's a story in The Notorious RBG book about her kid getting in trouble in school and the school repeatedly calling her over the course of a couple of days and her finally picking up the phone and barking HE HAS TWO PARENTS! and hanging up.
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Marjorie Ingall Mamaleh Knows Best
permalink #43 of 61: Ari Davidow (ari) Tue 20 Sep 16 08:57
permalink #43 of 61: Ari Davidow (ari) Tue 20 Sep 16 08:57
This is probably the moment I should step in and note that the best place to find out about women extraordinaire, mothers or not, is the Jewish Women's Archive, which not only has a great encyclopedia (okay, that was my project), but a ton of other resources and a great blog and great educational stuff--http://www.jwa.org
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Marjorie Ingall Mamaleh Knows Best
permalink #44 of 61: Mary Mazzocco (mazz) Tue 20 Sep 16 16:01
permalink #44 of 61: Mary Mazzocco (mazz) Tue 20 Sep 16 16:01
(How much do I love The Notorious RBG?)
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Marjorie Ingall Mamaleh Knows Best
permalink #45 of 61: behind on BADGES! (obizuth) Tue 20 Sep 16 17:08
permalink #45 of 61: behind on BADGES! (obizuth) Tue 20 Sep 16 17:08
i love JWA! i want a "jewesses with attitude" t-shirt.
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Marjorie Ingall Mamaleh Knows Best
permalink #46 of 61: Julie Sherman (julieswn) Thu 22 Sep 16 07:07
permalink #46 of 61: Julie Sherman (julieswn) Thu 22 Sep 16 07:07
In your research or wanderings, <obizuth>, do you see differences in mothering between mothers in the different branches of Judaism?
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Marjorie Ingall Mamaleh Knows Best
permalink #47 of 61: behind on BADGES! (obizuth) Thu 22 Sep 16 12:17
permalink #47 of 61: behind on BADGES! (obizuth) Thu 22 Sep 16 12:17
the book is really more about history than modern-day judaism. i'm very wary of stereotyping or generalizing -- my anxiety about doing so was a big part of why the book was a year late! <http://www.jewishbookcouncil.org/_blog/The_ProsenPeople/post/five-reasons-my-b ook-was-a-year-late> i think there are neurotic parents and chill parents in every cross section of life, jewish and not. but if you look back at jewish history, when there were so many periods of real risk and profound barriers to achievement, jewish mothers were good at getting kids out the door and into the world as much as possible. and it was not by encouraging the wrong things -- you couldn't suck up when you had no connections and didn't know the dominant language, or focus narrowly on standardized testing back when that wasn't such a distraction to real learning. i think jewish mothers have been very good at figuring out what their kids' interests and skills were, then nurturing and encouraging them while making clear that the world was not going to do them any favors. i do think it's worth pointing out that at several other periods in jewish history, jewish leaders have lamented excessive acculturation and worried loudly about how jews would lose their specific identity. A book called Menorat HaMaor, written by one Rabbi Isaac Aboab in Spain in the latter part of the 14th century, warned Jeremiah-ishly against getting too comfortable. Jews then were in a privileged position â below the nobility, but higher than most Spaniards. As in America and Western Europe today, Jews were working as doctors, bankers, merchants, poets, government functionaries. Aboab worried that his people were enjoying the trappings of wealth and culture a little too much. They werenât sufficiently religious anymore and that would not stand. âThey became more Spanish than Jewish,â wrote the bookâs 1982 translator, Rabbi Yaakov Yosef Reinman, ominously. âJewish practice became a cultural vestige, an exercise in ethnicity rather than the intensely meaningful experience it is meant to be.â mmmm, yeah, plus ca change.
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Marjorie Ingall Mamaleh Knows Best
permalink #48 of 61: Tiffany Lee Brown's Moustache (magdalen) Fri 23 Sep 16 19:24
permalink #48 of 61: Tiffany Lee Brown's Moustache (magdalen) Fri 23 Sep 16 19:24
i'm excited to read the book (after i, goy, give it to my husband, secular Jew, for hanukkah). in the meantime, i wonder: did you deal with how persecution and trauma affect Jewish families and moms throughout generations? in our family, sometimes when we are trying to sort out emotional and psychological issues that are rooted in my husband's upbringing, i find myself thinking about little things like, oh, let's say, all of his grandparents fleeing the Holocaust. how could that not have great repercussions on many levels, from communication styles (often secretive) to self-esteem? how does the awesome mammeleh process that heavy yet important cultural inheritance, and help the kids process it? if you can trace a familial habit or tendency that has negative effects on relationships back to behaviors inculcated in times of persecution -- i don't know, what does one do with that? and as the outsider to that culture, how should a shiksa respond to this kind of thing? (in my family, there is a somewhat similar Irish thing going on -- but we are over 150 years out from the Potato Famine and the family's arrival in the US, and a couple generations removed from Catholicism. the persecutions are not so fresh and not so recurrent as what Jewish people face.)
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Marjorie Ingall Mamaleh Knows Best
permalink #49 of 61: behind on BADGES! (obizuth) Sun 25 Sep 16 15:01
permalink #49 of 61: behind on BADGES! (obizuth) Sun 25 Sep 16 15:01
great questions! 1. i think a lot of families have trauma. not just the jews. the holocaust is indeed heavy as hell (one of my coworkers at Tablet is actually in an anthology about the GRANDCHILDREN of survivors and how they experience family history, and tho i haven't read Art Spiegelman (MAUS) and Francoise Mouly's daughter's book, i could imagine that some of the emotional violence and paranoia and depression that Spiegelman grew up with infected his child. but i also think we owe it to ourselves and our children to work on our own pain and create safe space for our kids -- defining yourself solely as a victim, or being trapped by the past, can sometimes be a perverse source of pride. i get very angsty when jews try to play the WHO IS MORE PERSECUTED game, and act like the holocaust trumps all other people's pain. WINNER, WINNER, KOSHER CHICKEN DINNER. and i was fascinated to listen to my teenage daughter talking about her israeli camp counselors' response to Holocaust Remembrance Day: no matter where they fell on teh political spectrum, they had a hard time wrapping their brains around the notion of jews as victims. residents of a country founded on the ashes of the six million, they were all "but israelis are SO STRONG" -- however they felt about terrorism/the west bank, they agreed on this. my husband's grandfather got out of germany six weeks before kristallnacht; his siblings and mother made it to brazil. he took his mother-in-law and wife to america. there was, shall we say, a lot of pain and brokenness in that family, and my generation all still sees it. but it's also a source of frustration to us. all i can say is that therapy is a wonder, and we do not have to become our parents or grandparents, and if the past colors our parenting, it's something we owe it to our kids to address. i am sure YOU (and moms still are in most cases the primary caregivers) are makng sure gusty feels at home in the world. 2. YOU ARE NOT A SHIKSA. i don't use this word. it's a slur. it means bug or unclean thing. (the male equivalent is sheygetz.) "goy" is a fine word -- it just means people or nation. i think a good response to Weltzchmerz in general is social action. we can all help heal the world. doing so helps us heal ourselves. (did i talk about tikkun olam? i forget. a whole chapter of the book, and a major value, the act of healing a broken world.) you can volunteer with him -- doing trash cleanup in a park, making sandwiches for the homeless, dropping off clothes at a shelter, having a tzedakah box and deciding togehter where the money should go. i think that is empowering for kids, and helpful for parents, to know they're doing their part to try to leave this fucked-up world better than they found it.
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Marjorie Ingall Mamaleh Knows Best
permalink #50 of 61: Amy Keyishian (superamyk) Mon 26 Sep 16 10:52
permalink #50 of 61: Amy Keyishian (superamyk) Mon 26 Sep 16 10:52
I personally don't see a lot of "we had the best holocaust" amongst jews, but then I'm half armenian so we also had a good holocaust. I also recommend picking up a copy of the book well before hanukkah! which actually falls on xmas this year, which is always helpful. Maybe this is a good way to segue to your chapter on humor, where you talk about Jewish humor of yore -- self-deprecating, but also specifically female-deprecating -- and how that's not the kind of Jewish humor being propogated now. But you know, our kids are still going to watch Spaceballs, with the "JAP-y" main character. Do you have any specific advice for explaining this very recent history and how it has changed since you and I were teens?
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