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permalink #101 of 177: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Mon 23 Jan 17 13:15
permalink #101 of 177: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Mon 23 Jan 17 13:15
I came into jazz and folk music first...all into Alan Lomax and taking classical guitar lessons from a jazz guitarist who had me go see Peter Nero and George Shearing for my first concert experience. Then I went to see Bob Dylan as my own first choice and then the Beatles when they first came to D.C., by then it was all blues and rock and roll for me.
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permalink #102 of 177: Ed Ward (captward) Mon 23 Jan 17 14:51
permalink #102 of 177: Ed Ward (captward) Mon 23 Jan 17 14:51
That American Graffiti soundtrack was, I believe, coordinated by Kim Fowley, who would have been meticuclous about the selections, so yes, that would have been oldies programming, which Wolfman Jack specialized in, targetting Chicanos in LA in particular, since for that crowd, that music never went away. And the balance is pretty good for regular programming, too, including two integrated groups: the Del-Vikings and Booker T and the MGs, although some of the studio bands on the major-label or big-label records would have also been biracial.
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permalink #103 of 177: Scott Underwood (esau) Mon 23 Jan 17 16:26
permalink #103 of 177: Scott Underwood (esau) Mon 23 Jan 17 16:26
It's funny to think that, at the time, the soundtrack felt *old*, as if music had come so far since then. It was only ten years later, of course. I suppose it created a kind of revival in popularity at the time? I see it was followed by two other collections of "oldies." On the other hand, I suddenly remember that Sha Na Na was at Woodstock.
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permalink #104 of 177: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Mon 23 Jan 17 16:38
permalink #104 of 177: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Mon 23 Jan 17 16:38
Right, and "oldies" albums had been a thing way before then. Morris Levy was in that business, right Ed? The song "Those Oldies but Goodies Remind Me of You" was a hit in 1961. Talk about instant nostalgia. So by the time American Graffiti came along, there had already been several waves of nostalgia.
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permalink #105 of 177: those Andropovian bongs (rik) Mon 23 Jan 17 16:52
permalink #105 of 177: those Andropovian bongs (rik) Mon 23 Jan 17 16:52
Sha Na Na lasted considerably longer that the era they tribute.
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permalink #106 of 177: Ed Ward (captward) Mon 23 Jan 17 17:28
permalink #106 of 177: Ed Ward (captward) Mon 23 Jan 17 17:28
Whereas Flash Cadillac didn't last very long at all. Camping up '50s music wsa a cheap fad, but as <rik> says, Sha Na Na plugged along at it forever.
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permalink #107 of 177: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Mon 23 Jan 17 17:29
permalink #107 of 177: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Mon 23 Jan 17 17:29
One of the things I'm re-learning by reading the book is that you can fool yourself by looking at broad trends in history and jumping to the assumption that because period X was characterized by Y, it was all Y all the time everywhere you went. For example, the story of Slim Harpos discovery wasnt really all that different from the discovery of Charlie Patton or Robert Johnson who would think that the guy in a store looking for local musical talent thing was still going on in 1961? (Granted a music store rather than a grocery store, but still.) And from that we got two songs that every serious rock music fan knows (or should): Im a King Bee and Baby Scratch My Back.
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permalink #108 of 177: Ed Ward (captward) Mon 23 Jan 17 17:33
permalink #108 of 177: Ed Ward (captward) Mon 23 Jan 17 17:33
And "Te-Na-Ne-Na-Ne-Na-Ne!" But a *lot* of people were still doing that in 1961, and even later: there were a bunch of guys I haven't gotten to yet doing that in Louisiana, where Harpo was from, resulting in hits from Phil Phillips' "Sea of Love" to Cleveland Crochet's "Sugar Bee" to all manner of great stuff in New Orleans. The lucky guys got to license nationally, the unluchy guys drove record collectors nuts from the '80s on. And when soul came in, there were loads of local labels, as we learn today.
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permalink #109 of 177: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Mon 23 Jan 17 17:46
permalink #109 of 177: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Mon 23 Jan 17 17:46
Yeah, I note that someone going to New Orleans in search of novel sounds and finding a hit or two or three - and maybe going back for more - is a recurring story in the book. The influence of New Orleans was enormous. I get the impression that the amount of money that ended up in New Orleans as a result was not so enormous.
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permalink #110 of 177: Ed Ward (captward) Mon 23 Jan 17 18:06
permalink #110 of 177: Ed Ward (captward) Mon 23 Jan 17 18:06
One way or another, you're right. Fats was chained to the Mob through compulsive gambling (like "Col. Tom Parker"), and some of those licensing deals weren't so hot, either. But the book ends as one era of New Orleans musicians hits the road for LA, giving another generation the chance to get cheated, too.
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permalink #111 of 177: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Mon 23 Jan 17 18:09
permalink #111 of 177: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Mon 23 Jan 17 18:09
Hah! But we got that great "Dr. John the Night Tripper" record out of it. We were talking a couple of days ago about those breakout moments when rock went mainstream, and I think we missed the obvious the Twist. It certainly wasnt the first breakout moment and I guess you could quibble about whether the Twist was real rock and roll. But it utterly conquered the mainstream. Everybody did it, hip, square, young and old. Greta Garbo! I think its hard to understand how truly huge it was unless you were there. There certainly hasnt been a dance craze like that since.
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permalink #112 of 177: Ed Ward (captward) Mon 23 Jan 17 18:58
permalink #112 of 177: Ed Ward (captward) Mon 23 Jan 17 18:58
The twist was a very important moment. It started as a midwestern teenage black thing, Hank Ballard picked up on it and wrote a song to do it to, Syd Nathan at King Records, in his all-knowingness, stuck it on the b-side of Hank's next single. And it died. But Chubby Checker, a very ambitious young teenager in Philadelphia, knew it had come out, knew how to do the dance, and, tired of doing records where he imitated other performers' voices, recorded it himself. Now, why it took off like that is anybody's guessm except that Cameo-Parkway, for whom he recorded, was a big-time mobbed up label in Philadelphia that had been cranking out Bobbys, and they pushed it because it was so simple and catchy. At the same time, the discotheque fad was starting among the Kennedy-era East Coast elite. Quick segue into the next volume: the discotheque originated in Marseille, where sailors would park their favorite records on shore leave so they could dance with the French girls to them when they returned. These bars were among the most popular in town because they really were a library (bibliothèque) of records (disques). The concept went to Paris, where Richard Burton's ex-wife, Sybil, went to the one called Whisky au Go-Go and came back to Manhattan and opened Sybil's as a very exclusive club. Naturally, being exclusive and all, everyone wanted in, so she also opened the Cheetah, less upscale, more popular. The concept, though, had already kind of shuddered into life when the Mob opened hte Peppermint Lounge just off Times Square. They were mostly live entertainment, but the band played the twist, and, being around the corner from all the Broadway theaters, people tended to go there after the show. And while Sybil's and the Cheetah featured all kinds of dances, the twist reigned supreme at the Peppermint Lounge, whose house band, Joey Dee and the Starliters, spun off a bunch of musicians, most notably the Young Rascals, but also, some time later, I believe there were a couple of Velvet Fudges there. The legend that Hendrix was a Starliter, however, is false. As I note int he book "The Twist" by Chubby Checker, is the only record to be number one on the charts twice. Later, noting that he'd been a minor when he signed the contract, he sued Parkway for royalties.
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permalink #113 of 177: Ned Wall (nedwall) Mon 23 Jan 17 21:56
permalink #113 of 177: Ned Wall (nedwall) Mon 23 Jan 17 21:56
Did he collect?
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permalink #114 of 177: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Tue 24 Jan 17 04:29
permalink #114 of 177: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Tue 24 Jan 17 04:29
I love the story of how Dick Cami (who was perhaps not mobbed up as such, but certainly knew some guys) decided running a mob money laundry/dance joint might be his entrée into the rock biz and ended up starting a worldwide dance craze. A minor trivia note: Cami died some years back, but he later became a successful restaurateur and his name lives on in the Delaware shore at "Crabby Dick's," home of the "I got crabs at Crabby Dick's" T-shirt. Meanwhile, I'm not sure how much we care about the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, but I believe Chubby Checker is not in it. Still working Vegas last I heard, but that was a while back.
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permalink #115 of 177: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Tue 24 Jan 17 10:25
permalink #115 of 177: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Tue 24 Jan 17 10:25
Ed can you talk about distribution....and payola, like Alan Freed: http://www.modestoradiomuseum.org/payola.html This all started in the 50's and probably earlier, and was still in play in the 80's and 90's when my cousin owned a hip hop studio in Manhattan...it's kind of the underbelly of the music industry...and I imagine you will talk some in the second volume about how Independent studios and artists releasing their own music on the Internet has been a move around all this... There's the music, and then how it got on the "air" and how it got to the record shelves....a lot of it mobbed up...very little money coming to the artist, etc. And then there's the album tour and concert venues, ticket sales, t-shirts and bling...when did that all start to become an industry in its own right?
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permalink #116 of 177: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Tue 24 Jan 17 10:30
permalink #116 of 177: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Tue 24 Jan 17 10:30
I just read a biography of Freed a few months ago. A scapegoat and his own worst enemy is what it sounds like (not least because he was an alcoholic). Others, then and later, put payola on a much more serious footing - and I'm sure still do. I'm not sure if Freed's ambitions extended much beyond having a roll of bills that would choke a horse in his pocket. Of course, then as now "But everyone's doing it!" wasn't such a great defense.
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permalink #117 of 177: Ed Ward (captward) Tue 24 Jan 17 11:31
permalink #117 of 177: Ed Ward (captward) Tue 24 Jan 17 11:31
Last I heard Chubby Checker was suing some website or product that referred to an erection as a "chubby" and were using it in their site or product name. It seemed like a sad and desperate move. Part of the problem of addressing payola is defining it, which has become infinitely more complicated as the stakes grew higher. In the '50s, it wasn't as big a deal: you'd take a DJ out to dinner -- often the only hot meal he'd had all week -- and/or give him an inexpensive gift. A bottle of Scotch at Christmas. He'd play athe record, but if there were no requests, there wasn't much he could do. Of course, with a guy like Freed, it was a bit more complicated. How did his name appear on the credits of "Maybelline" and "Sincerely"? Easy: the Chess brothers cut him in for publishing so he was motivated to play both records, which were smashes. Ahmet Ertegun paid for the pool at his house in Scarsdale. I forget who paid for the remote studio so he could do his show from home. The problem that Congress faced when they held their hearings was that yes, everyone was doing it, but their real agenda was to shut down this degenerate, negro-originated music that innocent white teens had been conned into liking. They just couldn't get it through their heads that you can pay someone to play a record on the radio, but you sure can't pay teenagers to buy it. Management also knew that leaning on a dud record too heavily could produce dial-outs if there were a competing station in the market: I switched back and forth between WINS and WMCA all the time. Playing Sinatra? Bye! (I had a big-ass walnut console radio with a record player and shortwave I got from my grandmother, and it had preset buttons on it, like a car). As far as merch and all goes, that's way off in the future, although country music stars, not least Elvis' managment starting with Bob Neal, sold glossies and the stars would stand outside their buses at the end of the show and sign them. Given how cheap it was to produce them, selling them for a dollar, which included the autograph, was a fine income stream. Willie did that up until a few years ago, and for all I know other artists still do it.
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permalink #118 of 177: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Tue 24 Jan 17 11:41
permalink #118 of 177: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Tue 24 Jan 17 11:41
Dragging us back to the Twist era, I was amazed by the number of things going on at that time. The casual observer who didn't live through the era might think it was the Twist and a bunch of lame pop records, but at the same time as the Twist you have the peak of the softer/safer folk revival (the Kingston Trio et al), and the beginnings of the scene that would lead to Dylans stardom all those people who listened to the Harry Smith Anthology and decided to go for the weirder more authentic stuff. And woven through it, all those, wonderful songs coming out of New Orleans we were just talking about. And King and Goffin write and the Shirelles record Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow, which is certainly one of the first (if not the first) song to address a teenage audience in an intelligent way about a serious subject. And Willie Nelson is writing hits for Patsy Cline. So yeah, I guess weve sort of laid the nothing much was happening until the Beatles came along thing to rest. And driven a stake through its heart.
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permalink #119 of 177: Darrell Jonsson (jonsson) Tue 24 Jan 17 13:01
permalink #119 of 177: Darrell Jonsson (jonsson) Tue 24 Jan 17 13:01
<scribbled by jonsson>
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permalink #120 of 177: those Andropovian bongs (rik) Tue 24 Jan 17 17:25
permalink #120 of 177: those Andropovian bongs (rik) Tue 24 Jan 17 17:25
New Orleans. Regionlism saw to it that We didn't get much New Orleans on back country New England radio in the late 1950s. Fats, because he was on Bandstand, and national because of it, but not much else. We could pull in WWVA on good nights so I had country to listen to and I was already coveting banjos because of the pop folk thing that was big on college campuses. But New Orleans was a foreign country. I was sitting in the car one evening, waiting for my uncle, who was shopping in the Western Auto, and I heard the weirdest thing I'd ever heard come on the radio, faintly, as if from a distance. "Ah hah hah hah Ay yay yo Dooba dooba dooba dooba Ah hah hah hah Ah hah hah hah Ay yay yo" My first taste of really funky New Orleans was a faint shot of "Don't You Just Know It". Nobody I talked to had ever heard of it, and I pretty much forgot about it until 1960 when I heard it coming from the record player of a guy from Alabama at the boarding school I went to. It was just as weird in lo-fi on a portable stereo. New Orleans was a foreign country. I just youtubed it, and it's as almost as weird today as it was then. And just as infectious. Butimagine the effect on a very white Kingston Trio fan, prep school boy at a school just a bit south of Montreal. <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sxnXO2RjVg>
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permalink #121 of 177: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Wed 25 Jan 17 04:35
permalink #121 of 177: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Wed 25 Jan 17 04:35
Rik, great big grin on my face in the first three notes!!! Had completely forgotten that one....it's amazing the power of music to evoke a flood of memories right off the bat. Thanks. Not to get too metaphysical here Ed, but can you reflect a bit on the cultural melange that all these threads of music were bringing together in the "gumbo" of Rock and Roll....it's more than just hearing a new tune, discovering a new group. What were some of the cultural impacts of all of this music, in the early days, 40's and 50's, as kids were hearing it for the first time and parents were getting some new to listen to aside from the Top 40 of the Andrews Sisters and Frank Sinatra. And wasn't the evil cannabis sneaking across cultural lines here as well? I'm not blaming it on the music, but I know my crowd went from Vodka to grass parallel to the music we were listening to...maybe that would have occurred no matter what was on the radio, and we just tend to map these things backwards. The impact of WWII and all the black americans who served, now returning from Gay Paree had a huge societal impact...they were not exactly mainstreaming, that all hit the fan right about where this volume ends, but having grown up in the North, New York, and the South - Florida, North and South Carolina and Virginia, I watched a lot of boundaries drop quickly. And the music bled through.
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permalink #122 of 177: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Wed 25 Jan 17 09:12
permalink #122 of 177: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Wed 25 Jan 17 09:12
Another example of the sort of local entrepreneurialism we've been talking about is, of course, Motown. It later became such a huge force that its easy to forget how much floundering around they did at the beginning. And in many ways they remained a charmingly local business until Gordy picked up and moved to L.A. Theyve probably turned it into a professional museum by now and ruined the experience, but when I toured the Motown studios in Detroit 20 years ago, you could still see the scuff marks on the linoleum from people tapping their feet behind the recording console and my tour guide was Marvin Gaye Gordy!
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permalink #123 of 177: those Andropovian bongs (rik) Wed 25 Jan 17 10:28
permalink #123 of 177: those Andropovian bongs (rik) Wed 25 Jan 17 10:28
Now THAT'S cool. I had a similar frisson when we recorded at Muscle Shoals. They'd already move to a big slick studio down by the river, but we had to check out the old place at 3614 Jackson Highway. Pilgrimage. It's a dump of a store front and had been stripped of the good gear, but out in the studio was this big rectangular section of the carpet that looked brand new compared to the funky, faded rattiness around it. That was where the put Hood's bass amp when they loaded in for the first time, and never moved it until they moved out. The Beatles changed recording with their budget busting explorations in studios built for orchestras, but think of All the multi-million dollar hits that were recorded in dumps like that store-front out on the highway.
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permalink #124 of 177: Cliff Dweller (robinsline) Wed 25 Jan 17 11:05
permalink #124 of 177: Cliff Dweller (robinsline) Wed 25 Jan 17 11:05
A laundromat I sometimes use in New Orleans was the storied J&M Recording Studio in a past life. http://www.nola.com/music/index.ssf/2010/09/cosimo_matassas_jm_recording_s.htm l
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permalink #125 of 177: those Andropovian bongs (rik) Wed 25 Jan 17 11:12
permalink #125 of 177: those Andropovian bongs (rik) Wed 25 Jan 17 11:12
How did you find out? Word of mouth, or is there a plaque?
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