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Julie Rehmeyer, Through the Shadowlands
permalink #0 of 90: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Thu 22 Jun 17 11:09
permalink #0 of 90: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Thu 22 Jun 17 11:09
Inkwell welcomes Julie Rehmeyer, who will be discussing her memoir _Through the Shadowlands: A Science Writer's Odyssey into an Illness Science Doesn't Understand_, which describes her journey navigating the science and politics of poorly understood illnesses, based on her own experience with myalgic encephalomyelitis, also known as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS). From Publisher's Weekly: "Science journalist Rehmeyers deeply personal illness memoir stands out for the lucidity of her self-analysis and pragmatism about managing a life turned upside down by chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS). She emerges as simultaneously a science journalist frustrated with established medicines dismissiveness, a patient open to the pseudoscientific approaches of non-traditional practitioners, and a desperate woman reaching out to suffering peers on the Internet for support and advice. This last avenue ultimately leads her to an extreme removal of mold from her environment, starting with a body-resetting solo expedition to Death Valley. Exploring ideas of dependence and self-sufficiency, Rehmeyer shows her illness through the lens of her personal relationships―with her strange and abusive mother, mentally ill first husband, mostly distant siblings, and two successive partners, the second of whom is supportive where the first one is not. In this way, she explores her illnesss psychological aspects while never giving up the idea that CFS has a real and profound physiological component. Rehmeyers frustrated but cautiously optimistic story will resonate with readers who value an intelligent, scientific approach to life but wonder what to do when there arent any good answers." Julie is an award-winning freelance math and science journalist and contributing editor at Discover magazine. Her work has appeared in the New York Times, the Washington Post, O Magazine, Discover, Science News, Aeon, Wired, High Country News and many other publications. Joe Flower leads the conversation with Julie. With over 37 years' experience, Joe has emerged as a thought leader on the deep forces changing healthcare in the United States and around the world. He has spoken to or consulted with hundreds of clients ranging from the World Health Organization, the Global Business Network, the U.K. National Health Service, the U.S. Department of Defense, and Fortune 100 companies, to the majority of state hospital associations in the U.S. as well as many of the provincial associations and ministries in Canada, and an extraordinary variety of other players across healthcare in every sector.
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Julie Rehmeyer, Through the Shadowlands
permalink #1 of 90: Joe Flower (bbear) Sun 25 Jun 17 13:08
permalink #1 of 90: Joe Flower (bbear) Sun 25 Jun 17 13:08
Welcome, Julie. Thanks for talking with us. Let me lead off by asking what seems like the heart of this whole question: You're a pretty rational, science-based person. We live in a time when we are increasingly flooded with pseudo-science, anti-science diatribes, skepticism about science (and no part of science is more prone to this than medical science). And here you are, studied math at MIT, on the masthead of Discover, a Visiting Fellow at the Santa Fe Institute, well-published about science and mathematics, a pretty well known science writer. And you are brought low by a mysterious condition for which medical science comes up with answers that are both few and from your experience just plain wrong. So you go off in pursuit of a theory, a possibility, that must have seemed like just another of these whacko psuedo-science theories knocking about the Internet. In retrospect, it appears that pursuit was exactly the right thing, just what you needed to begin to find your way out of the trap you were in. But at the time it must have seemed so counter to all your training. It must have taken a powerful push to get you to consider something so radical. Tell us about that moment, and what it took to get you to shift your perspective so strongly.
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Julie Rehmeyer, Through the Shadowlands
permalink #2 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Sun 25 Jun 17 21:36
permalink #2 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Sun 25 Jun 17 21:36
It certainly did! take a powerful push! Everything you say about how foreign this approach was for me is bang-on. But for the previous year, Id been so sick that I often couldnt turn over in bed. Id gone to the top specialists in the world, and Id pretty much run out of medical options. I was running out of money, too, and I could barely work. I was living alone, had little family to turn to, and was really too sick to even take care of myself. I had no idea what was going to happen to me. Life in a Medicaid-funded nursing home? Furthermore, I had little hope that medical science was going to offer me any solutions anytime soon. At that time, the National Institutes of Health was spending about $5 million a year on research on chronic fatigue syndromeonly enough for a handful of small studies. There are about a million American patients, so that was five bucks a patient. By contrast, multiple sclerosis, which is similarly devastating and which is funded to an average degree, receives about $300 per patient. A couple of decades of research had produced many studies, but they were small, they hadnt been replicated, and the findings identified apparently unrelated abnormalities in practically every system of the body. When I looked at them, I had no idea which findings were solid and which were phantoms that would disappear if someone tried to replicate them. And I saw no prospects that funding was likely to increase. So simply waiting for science to find an answer for me wasnt really an option. Around this time, I managed to publish a story about chronic fatigue syndrome in Slate: <bit.ly/slate-cfs>. I worked on it for five days, at the cost of a week afterward spent mostly unmoving in a darkened bedroom. In that story, I came out as having the disease publicly for the first time, and as a result, I began receiving friend requests from patients on Facebook. I accepted them without thinking too hard about itseemed the friendly thing to do. Id been familiar with online forums for CFS patients previously, and Id been pretty put off by them. Id wrinkled my nose at the unscientific thinking, the zillions of (to my mind) wacko treatments patients experimented with, and most of all, the overwhelming suffering. But on Facebook, I came to see a different side of of my fellow patients. I saw people carving out meaningful lives for themselves despite all that sufferingand because I was now dreadfully sick myself, the suffering no longer seemed frightening. It seemed familiar. One subgroup in this teeming online world consisted of patients who claimed that taking extreme measures to avoid mold had led to extraordinary improvements in their health. Initially, I scoffed: pseudoscientific hogwash, i figured. I understood that mold could cause respiratory problems, but it couldnt cause neurological problems like mine. To get a sense of what I was dealing with, check out this little video, of a relatively mild episode: <https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8fLu7v36Hcg> But I read a blog post by a young man who had spent two months living in a cargo trailer in the desert, and he posted pictures of himself running. Running! Lifting weights too! Reading his post, I felt as though my heart would burst with longing to run through my beloved mountains again. Exercise for me often consisted of crawling to the bathroom, and that exertion could be so intense for me that it would cost a day-long exacerbation of my symptoms. I was intrigued enough that I reached out to the moldies, as they called themselves. Cant hurt to ask a few questions, right? They turned out to be, in many ways, an impressive group of people. One was a Harvard lawyer, another an MIT computer scientist, a third an art history professor. They recommended that I spend two weeks in the desert with none of my own belongings to get clear of mold. They said I might or might not feel better while Iw as there, but that when I came home, Id react clearly and strongly to my own stuff. That would give indubitable evidence that mold was indeed my problem, and by strictly avoiding it, they claimed, Id recover. I wasnt at all convinced that their claims were true. In fact, I found it almost impossible to believe that mold was really at the heart of my illness. Id never lived in an obviously moldy building, as the moldies had. Id never gone into a building and suddenly felt much worse. Id gotten sick in dry New Mexico, Id lived in four different states during my illness, and Id never gotten better or worse when I moved. Nevertheless, I decided to try it. I think I chose to pursue this cracked theory rather than the zillions of other cracked theories available to me for a bunch of reasons. One was that even though there wasnt much scientific evidence to back the idea up that I knew of at the time (I later did a lot of research on this and found some intriguing findings), the theory was as plausible as any other Id heard, even from the fancy specialists Id gone to see. Mold produces toxins that are known neurotoxins. There was a big debate about whether they could cause us harm at the levels that we might breathe in a moldy building, but stilla plausible mechanism existed. And there are lots of other nasties in the air in water damaged buildingsbacteria, bacterial toxins, particulates, volatile organic compounds, on and on and onand little study had been done on the impacts of any of these, though there were reasons to think that each of them, alone or in combination, could do bad things to us. Also, the other options I knew about werent very appealing to me. Sure, there was a near endless list of supplements that someone or other claimed had helped them, but Id experimented with a zillion supplements already and never found any of them helpful. Sure, another supplement could be helpful, but it was hard to get excited about that. Similarly, Id tried acupuncture several timesyeah, people said that the particular practitioner was really important, so a different one might be helpful, but Other things just sounded so whacked that I wasnt willing to go there, like the guy experimenting with shining a red light up his nose. And I was on a bit of an upswing, just enough that I thought I might be able to pull off an expedition to the desert (though the idea of ending up paralyzed and alone in the middle of the godforsaken desert was certainly frightening). The idea of managing to have an adventure even while that damn sick appealed to me. It made me feel like me, when so much of what made me feel like me was taken away. I didnt really think it would work, but if nothing else, itd make a hell of a story. I also liked the fact that the risks were pretty clear. I wasnt having to down some sketchy substance with unknown side effects. Finally, I just had an intuitive sense of being drawn to the desert. By the way, I discuss some of the factors that I think are important for evaluating whether to try an untested treatment here: <http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2017/06/be_s keptical_and_don_t_take_anything_at_face_value.html>
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Julie Rehmeyer, Through the Shadowlands
permalink #3 of 90: Jane Hirshfield (jonl) Mon 26 Jun 17 06:51
permalink #3 of 90: Jane Hirshfield (jonl) Mon 26 Jun 17 06:51
Jane Hirshfield (<jh> on the WELL) is currently offline, but asked Inkwell hosts to submit this question for her: Julie, I've known your story, and the way you've lived it through, pretty well from our time together in the Writers Conference here on the WELL, where you've been an invaluable voice and presence for many years now. Still one thing that knocked me out at the beginning of reading THROUGH THE SHADOWLANDS was the way that you move from the immediate detail and immediate crisis out to the larger view. I'm thinking particularly of the moment in the first chapter, where you and your first husband go to sit up on the hill behind the house you were building, right after your marriage ceremony, and in that moment of respite in a high place, you not only found yourself reflecting, as you write, on Geoff's bipolar illness and your own recognition that you couldn't tell the man from the illness but also the 35 million year old tectonic movements that created the valley and range you two were sitting amidst. I have a couple questions connected to that. One is about telling the person and the illness apart. Over most of the book, that's obviously something you realized you had to work with now for yourself finding a way to keep core Julie intact, searching, evaluating, and emotionally whole enough, even in the worst of times, to find a way to keep going. Can you say more about that? And maybe a little about how and when writing this book became part of that process? The other question is a craft question. Could you speak a little about finding the rhythms in telling this story of moving between immediate experience and larger overview, and between information and personal experience, each of which you've handled so masterfully in telling this story? Obviously those two questions are deeply connected, but they're coming at the same thing from very different sides. There's living the life and there's also structuring a book, and not everyone who can do one can do the other. (I'm going to be away from the internet when this conversation starts, so I've asked for this to be posted for me, and I'll see the answer when I get back in range. Thank you!)
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Julie Rehmeyer, Through the Shadowlands
permalink #4 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Mon 26 Jun 17 08:46
permalink #4 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Mon 26 Jun 17 08:46
First, I have to just say what a thrill it is to be discussing this book with you guys, whom Ive shared so much of this journey with. Its slightly surreal, sitting down right now, answering Janes question about the *finished book*! The book starts with the story of building my house and my then-husbands mental illness both because thats when I first started getting sick but also because at that time in my life, I lacked many of the skills that my own illness would lead me to developand I suffered hugely as a result. At that point, I believed that if I lived my life well, Id get what I wantedand conversely, if I didnt get what I wanted, it was because I must have made a mistake. (Note that I was in my mid to late twenties.) When I so dramatically didnt get what I wanted, I tortured myself looking for my error, trying to figure out what I needed to do in the future to make life behave. The result was that I couldnt separate myself from my agony, just as I couldnt separate my husband from his illness. I was forced to just keep moving forward without the answers I was so burning for. And I discovered that over years, the experience came to have a very different meaning. It was no longer about my failure to produce the results I wanted. It was a sucky thing that happened to me, and that changed me. It was the wind that sculpted the juniper tree. My job wasnt to force the wind to stop; it was to channel its brutal force into beauty. This knowledge was forming in me over the years as my illness progressed. Obviously, I wanted to find solutions, but I didnt see my ability to find them as a test of my moral being, as I would have when I was younger. So rather than resisting the illness and trying to hold myself apart from it, I was able to lean into it, to view it as an experience worth having, to allow it to shape core Julie rather than erecting fortifications to protect core Julie from it. What I found was that the less resistance I pushed against the illness, the more I was able to engage with it creatively, and the more I was able to feel like myself as a result. So, for example, when I was at my sickest, I was often unable to turn over in bed, and when I was well enough to go out to, say, do my grocery shopping, I might find myself suddenly crippled, unable even to get back to my car. During the long hours that I spent in bed, I hatched an idea: I could train my 18-month-old hound-mix puppy, Frances, as a service dog. She could carry a foldable scooter on her back essentially a skateboard with a handle and a brake and when I got crippled, she could pull me on it. The idea made me laugh: ludicrous but clever, thoroughly Julie-ish. I found online resources to help me train her, and that project was one of the things that kept me from losing my mind during those long, frightening months. Now for the craft question, about "finding the rhythms in telling this story of moving between immediate experience and larger overview, and between information and personal experience. Thats a hard one, because I think I did it largely instinctively, and through trial-and-error: throwing stuff in higgledy-piggledy and then rereading and feeling when it didnt work and moving things around. I was also blessed with many, many friends who were willing to read for me, and their responses helped enormously in figuring out where Id gotten it wrong. I think it also helps that my mind just kind of works that way: Im always trying to connect my immediate experience to my larger understanding of the world, so its natural to do that in my writing. One organizing principle for me was that I wanted the book to be a really, really good read: I wanted the reader to be driven through the story by an unstoppable emotional push. So the material that was informative for example, the story of the PACE trial, the largest treatment trial in the history of chronic fatigue syndrome, which turns out to be essentially a case of research misconduct needed to be told in a way that highlighted the emotional impact for me throughout. I kept bringing readers back to my responses, or what the trial meant in terms of my experience, or the impact it had on how I viewed what I was going through. My hope is that even readers who have no particular interest in ME/CFS or science will be catapulted through those sections, and will end up learning a lot while barely noticing that theyre doing so. The hardest bit of the book in that regard was the material about my mother. It was critical for giving readers the background to understand some of the idiosyncrasies of my response to the illness, but of course, it was outside the immediate narrative. It was also challenging because her view of the world was so unusual, and of course, I grew up steeped in it, so when I asked myself to describe it, it felt a bit like asking a fish to describe water. That was a section where I really relied on feedback from my readers I just couldnt know whether Id successfully translated between my mothers world and the ordinary world without hearing from outsiders. Our own <dkline> was especially helpful in thishe read draft after draft of this material, and he helpfully (and aggravatingly!) kept telling me the ways it still didnt make sense. Initially, I wrote that material as one big chunk, and then I ended up moving it around endlessly and ultimately breaking it up into chunks that I spread throughout the book. Im really glad to hear that for you, at least, I got the rhythm right!
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Julie Rehmeyer, Through the Shadowlands
permalink #5 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Mon 26 Jun 17 09:11
permalink #5 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Mon 26 Jun 17 09:11
One other note about the particular passage you mentioned, when my first husband and I went up to the hilltop on the morning of our wedding: I initially wrote that material as an essay, which you can read here: <http://www.hcn.org/issues/43.12/wedding-in-the-shadowed-valley>. And that essay grew out of a post I wrote here on the WELL! I was thinking a bit more about what drove me to make that particular move outward toward geology in that section. It partly came out of the experience itself: I really do remember the profound role the earth itself played at that moment. It also felt helpful in expressing what happened for me right then, the miraculous shift I felt from my personal fear and uncertainty to this larger, deeper knowing, the way that our individual worries are beyond consideration when you move to geologic time.
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Julie Rehmeyer, Through the Shadowlands
permalink #6 of 90: Joe Flower (bbear) Mon 26 Jun 17 19:46
permalink #6 of 90: Joe Flower (bbear) Mon 26 Jun 17 19:46
So, what we see in the book and in these first few questions is this interweaving of emotion life and science. And the development of science, and how it can go wrong, is as big a theme of the book as your own journey. Tell us what you think about how emotion drives science and how science drives emotions.
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Julie Rehmeyer, Through the Shadowlands
permalink #7 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Tue 27 Jun 17 09:26
permalink #7 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Tue 27 Jun 17 09:26
That's a great question, Joe, and it really does go to the heart of what I'm thinking about in the book. The simplistic story is that science is free of emotions, or even opposed to them -- that it's the infallible way of cutting through all that silly, misleading emotional stuff to access Truth. And there's some truth to that: Part of what's so valuable about science is that, done right, it *is* a tool that can be tremendously helpful in preventing us from being misled by our own desires, helping us to resist our own biases. Here's an example of that: After I became convinced that mold was at the root of my illness, I knew thatI had become so invested in that hypothesis that I was filtering all my experiences through it, seeing the world through mold-colored glasses, as it were. And while I found the evidence for my hypothesis really compelling, with exposures reliably leading to reactions, I had to admit that there was a possibility that I was deluding myself, focusing only on the evidence that supported my theory and spinning elaborate stories to explain away the evidence that didn't. Or, perhaps I was experiencing a nocebo effect, the placebo effect's evil twin: Maybe my expectation that exposures would hurt me was enough to create real reactionsbut it wasn't the mold itself that was doing it. So at that point, I turned to science, and I performed a rigorous, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial of my ability to detect mold. I bought two identical packages of washcloths and spread the washcloths in one of the packages around a moldy house while keeping the other package uncontaminated. A friend randomly chose either a contaminated or uncontaminated washcloth and handed it to my husband, who didn't know which one it was. My husband then brought the washcloth to me, and I held it to my nose and waited to see if it would cripple me. I'd declare it contaminated or uncontaminated, take a shower to wash away any traces of contamination from my body and restore my ability to walk (yes, bizarrely, showers had a miraculous impact), and then test the next one. To my astonishment, I didn't get a perfect score -- I was correct on 10 out of 12 with one false positive and one false negative. But when I did the statistics, I saw that that that was still good enough that I would have had only a two percent chance of doing as well if I really couldn't detect mold at all. (I would have liked to do further testing, but I decided it was too hard on my body.) So science can be super valuable in helping us guard against our own biases, seeing the world more objectively. But the reality is that the institutions of science are carried out by real live emotional human beings, and unsurprisingly, the reality often doesn't live up to the ideal. My book is full of examples of this, and perhaps the most striking is the PACE trial, the largest treatment trial in the history of chronic fatigue syndrome, which claimed that cognitive behavioral therapy and graded exercise therapy are effective treatments that lead to "recovery" in 22 percent of patients. It was a big, expensive trial, published in The Lancet, ballyhooed by the press. It influenced public health recommendations around the world, and there's a reasonable chance that its findings are the only thing your doctor knows about ME/CFS. And it's a bunch of bullshit. I told the story in this piece for STAT News: <https://www.statnews.com/2016/09/21/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-pace-trial/>. The essence of it, though, is that the researchers were determined to find that the treatments were effective, and they tortured their data to be able to claim they were -- even though the reality is that the results were pretty pathetic. But the researchers had invested their careers in this theory. Emotionally, it would have taken tremendous strength for them to say, "Whoops! Looks like these treatments aren't so great after all. Sorry!"
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Julie Rehmeyer, Through the Shadowlands
permalink #8 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Tue 27 Jun 17 09:32
permalink #8 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Tue 27 Jun 17 09:32
Another direction my thoughts go in answer to your question, Joe, is that while the rational analysis of science is a fantastic tool for accessing truth, it's not the only tool. I was determined to use every resource I had available to me in figuring out how to deal with my illness, and as important as science was in that, it wasn't the only resource I turned to. Another key approach for me was spirituality. By that, I don't meant that I believed that a great old man in the sky might intervene and save me if I asked nicely enough. My own experience of spirituality addresses the aspects of the world that are vastly bigger than we are, the things that we can faintly perceive but cant contain, that which evokes reverence in us. Its the hidden structure that underlies the world. In just the same way, mathematics is a hidden structure that underlies the world. (Remember that I earned a master's in math at MIT.) And thinking on a spiritual level felt very similar to thinking about a math problem to me. The process of solving a deep math problem is highly intuitive. When you write out your proof at the end, you spell out the logical connections, but thats not the process of discovery. Instead, you in large part feel your way to the new idea, based on an intuition youve built over years. By working on examples and just learning lots of different kinds of mathematics, you develop a sense of how things tend to behave. You get a good sense of what should be true, as if youre perceiving a kind of invisible structure within mathematics itself, and you can then feel your way along these great beams and columns to find your way to rooms that have never been visited before. Approaching my illness on a spiritual level meant many different things for me. For example, I believed that illness could be an experience worth having, that the shadowlands could be a place with surprising riches. I also never allowed myself to view my body as misbehaving; instead, I saw it as my partner, showing me its needs through various symptomsthe only language it had available. My spiritual orientation also meant that when rational, straightforward paths were all closed to mewhen I was living alone, often too sick to turn over in bed, out of medical options, running out of money, and with little family to turn toI didnt feel entirely without hope or resources. By deeply paying attention to my experiences and allowing my intuition to keep working, I had hope that Id still find a way through. And I believe that spiritual approach was key in helping me find my way to some answers to my health issues.
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Julie Rehmeyer, Through the Shadowlands
permalink #9 of 90: Idea Hamster On Speed (randomize27) Tue 27 Jun 17 10:14
permalink #9 of 90: Idea Hamster On Speed (randomize27) Tue 27 Jun 17 10:14
I have not finished the book yet, but have followed the story as it unfolded in Writers. (Which is not nearly a complete picture, so buy the book.) I wonder, at this point, could you get other mold-sensitive people to repeat your washcloth experiment, and perhaps establish a base line a scientist could use to get funding? I also caught where the doctor specializing in HIV was working with CFS patients because of similarities between the two illnesses. Do you feel that progress in either field could help the other? Finally, have you, or other CFS patients tried to sort among the patients what works and what doesn't? For example, supplements work for Group A and B, mold avoidance works for Group B and C. Do you think that perhaps there are multiple versions of ME/CFS, as evidenced by the lack of a single effective treatment?
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Julie Rehmeyer, Through the Shadowlands
permalink #10 of 90: Administrivia (jonl) Tue 27 Jun 17 11:19
permalink #10 of 90: Administrivia (jonl) Tue 27 Jun 17 11:19
Readers of this conversation who are not members of the WELL can participate by sending comments and/or questions to inkwell at well.com. Hosts of the conversation will post those as they come in. Short link to this discussion: http://bit.ly/shadowlands-book
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Julie Rehmeyer, Through the Shadowlands
permalink #11 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Tue 27 Jun 17 12:11
permalink #11 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Tue 27 Jun 17 12:11
A patient tried to organize an effort like this a few years ago, with patients sharing information and tracking their symptoms and treatments, in the hope of using that data to spur research. It was called HealClick, and patients loved it, but the guy running it couldn't get it to fly financially. I'd really love to see something like this brought to fruition. Ron Davis is getting interested in researching mold, in response to my book, actually. He's pretty amazing: <http://stanmed.stanford.edu/2016spring/the-puzzle-solver.html> The similarities between ME/CFS and AIDS have led some folks to call ME/CFS non-HIV AIDS, and it's also fueled the idea that ME/CFS might be caused by a retrovirus. At this point, the notion that it's a straightforward pathogen infection seems unlikely -- for one thing, the Dubbo studies showed how it could be triggered by particularly severe responses to a number of different bugs. (See here: <https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2014/11/22/infections-genes-chronic-fatigue- syndrome/>.) Still, unknown retroviruses could act as a trigger for some patients. The biggest similarity between AIDS and ME/CFS is that they both involve immune abnormalities that have been acquired later in life. The wonderful specialist I saw, Nancy Klimas, was an early AIDS researcher and clinician, and ME/CFS patients came to her because they were convinced their immune systems were messed up. She tested them, and they were right. The most striking and consistent abnormality was that their natural killer cells (which go after cancer, among other baddies) barely functioned. Gradually, Klimas came to be one of the top folks studying ME/CFS. My guess, though, is that any similarities between AIDS and ME/CFS don't go a whole lot deeper than that. The really exciting recent research has been on metabolic and mitochondrial problems, and I'd be putting my money on more findings in those directions.
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permalink #12 of 90: Scott Underwood (esau) Tue 27 Jun 17 12:58
permalink #12 of 90: Scott Underwood (esau) Tue 27 Jun 17 12:58
Reading along here and I'm still in the book as well. Though I saw some of this unfold periperally, it's almost overwhelming to contemplate what you've gone through. Even so, as you mention above, you've come out of this a strnger, more capable human, so there's something almost gratifying about that as a story.
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permalink #13 of 90: Virtual Sea Monkey (karish) Tue 27 Jun 17 13:56
permalink #13 of 90: Virtual Sea Monkey (karish) Tue 27 Jun 17 13:56
Julie, are you seeing any convergence on a more comprehensible taxonomy of ME/CFS symptoms, either from professionals who study the syndrome(s) or from fellow sufferers? Does the world make any more sense today than it did five years ago?
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Julie Rehmeyer, Through the Shadowlands
permalink #14 of 90: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Tue 27 Jun 17 14:54
permalink #14 of 90: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Tue 27 Jun 17 14:54
First of all, kudos to you, your incredible fortitude and courage and documentation of your journey will be a help to many. There has been a lot of talk these pasts years about "being your own health care advocate". Could you speak a bit about how that process unfolded for you?
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Julie Rehmeyer, Through the Shadowlands
permalink #15 of 90: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Tue 27 Jun 17 14:54
permalink #15 of 90: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Tue 27 Jun 17 14:54
Lots of slippage :)
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permalink #16 of 90: Paulina Borsook (loris) Tue 27 Jun 17 16:30
permalink #16 of 90: Paulina Borsook (loris) Tue 27 Jun 17 16:30
[frontpage of the well should be changed to reflect that this is the current book under discussion, and not that of ed ward]
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permalink #17 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Tue 27 Jun 17 17:02
permalink #17 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Tue 27 Jun 17 17:02
Thanks for joining in, everyone! <karish>, I'm not sure I'd say we've made progress in terms of a comprehensible taxonomy of symptoms, but a LOT has changed overall in the last five years. Five years ago, the PACE trial reigned unquestioned, with essentially no doctors questioning the view that the best treatments for the disease were cognitive behavioral therapy and graded exercise therapy. None of the researchers in the US agreed with that, but they weren't making a stink about it either. The NIH had zero interest in the disease. There was literally no good journalism about it, and the only researchers seriously interested in the disease were a few dedicated specialists. And we had no particularly promising research leads. All that and more has changed. The journalist David Tuller published a devastating takedown of the PACE trial and has galvanized the scientific community into objecting to that horseshit. (<http://www.virology.ws/2015/10/21/trial-by-error-i/>) The quality of journalism overall has improved dramatically, with Tuller, me, and Miriam Tucker writing about the disease regularly and some other non-specialist journalists actually doing decent work. The NIH has gotten seriously interested in the disease, increasing funding (by a pathetically small amount, but it's still a move in the right direction) and sponsoring an in-house study. (And recently, the head of the ME/CFS program there said that the research budget should be 10-20 times higher, though there's no indication they're going to make that happen.) Several extremely high-powered researchers are now doing top-notch work (though they're hampered by the lack of money), and we've got some really interesting findings. The two areas I'd highlight most are work showing that a cancer drug, rituximab, produces remissions for some patients and a collection of studies pointing to metabolic and mitochondrial abnormalities. Those latter are too small for me to put a lot of weight on any single one of them, so I won't report the details -- but we're seeing a bunch of interesting things in that general area. And the patient community has become much more organized and active. Your question, <karish>, may be pointing in this direction, too: Given how much symptoms can vary, it seems likely that there are distinct subgroups of patients. So you may be asking if we've made progress in identifying those subgroups. There was a recent study that claimed to do so, but I didn't hold it in very high regard. Furthermore, I don't think we're likely to find clean, tidy subgroups of patients -- I think the reality is more complicated. We tend to think of disease in a rather simplistic way, that a single cause breaks a single thing in the body, and that causes a single disease. But I think what we're seeing with a lot of chronic diseases is that there are multiple triggers, and they're probably breaking more than one thing in the body. And depending on the particular collection of triggers and broken things, the illness will manifest as more like ME/CFS or fibromyalgia or Lyme disease or lupus or mysterious-autoimmune-disease-without-a-name. But there are lots of overlaps and muddy areas, and I don't think those are going to go away. I do think it's helpful to look at patients where things seem to be simpler -- patients, actually, like me, because for me, it seems that mold was really THE thing keeping me sick (though I do think there were likely multiple triggers, not just mold.) But overall, I'd say we've made little progress in teasing the threads of that knot out.
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Julie Rehmeyer, Through the Shadowlands
permalink #18 of 90: Virtual Sea Monkey (karish) Tue 27 Jun 17 17:08
permalink #18 of 90: Virtual Sea Monkey (karish) Tue 27 Jun 17 17:08
Yes, I meant to ask about all those things. Thanks for the summary.
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Julie Rehmeyer, Through the Shadowlands
permalink #19 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Tue 27 Jun 17 17:12
permalink #19 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Tue 27 Jun 17 17:12
And Ted, thanks for saying that. Honestly, though, it feels like a privilege and an honor to be able to do this work. Both to have good enough health to make it possible, and to be in a position where I can do something that feels like it matters. I'd go a step beyond being your own healthcare advocate. Being an advocate, to my ear, implies that you're working within the medical system and pushing for it to work better for you. But for an illness like chronic fatigue syndrome, the medical system has almost nothing to offer (except for a few renegade doctors, though the truth is, I wouldn't simply turn my health over to any of them). What I did was to accept total responsibility for finding my own way with this illness. I was dragged, rather unwillingly, into seriously considering ideas from the patient community that I thought were utterly cracked -- like mold and detox. I'll add more on this later -- gotta run now.
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Julie Rehmeyer, Through the Shadowlands
permalink #20 of 90: Paulina Borsook (loris) Wed 28 Jun 17 10:11
permalink #20 of 90: Paulina Borsook (loris) Wed 28 Jun 17 10:11
julie, there does seem to be a huge overlap between people who are mold- sensitive and people who are chemically-sensitive; many ppl have both sensitivities to some degree. do you have any physiological intuitions as to why that might be? i have felt that at core this is a nervous-system dysregulation... as for the mold hypothesis and ME/CFS it sure makes sense to me. the one time i came down with it was after spending a nine months in moldy swampy charleston south carolina...
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Julie Rehmeyer, Through the Shadowlands
permalink #21 of 90: Pamela McCorduck (pamela) Wed 28 Jun 17 13:15
permalink #21 of 90: Pamela McCorduck (pamela) Wed 28 Jun 17 13:15
When you say you've taken responsibility, I think you've taken it along so many dimensions. I know you were referring directly to examining research reports, but I've just reached the point in the book where you return to Santa Fe alone from Berkeley, and face the reality that nobody is there to help you when you slip. It's a frightening responsibility to take on.
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Julie Rehmeyer, Through the Shadowlands
permalink #22 of 90: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Wed 28 Jun 17 13:46
permalink #22 of 90: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Wed 28 Jun 17 13:46
Julie, thx...yes I think being proactive about your 'health care' includes the whole person - physical, spiritual, mental and emotional. Having just come out of the gauntlet of a year and one half on Medical Disability I think the term "health care" as used to describe our system in the United States is an oxymoron. I found very few who cared and very few interested in my health; but they would prescribe! Most of the time I felt like nothing was going to be cured or resolved, just managed with drugs and medical marijuana. And maybe that works for people or is the best they can get. But I wanted to be well. So I kept rejecting those solutions and kept seeking wellness solutions. I ended up with a mix of about 50% excellent doctors and nurse practitioners that I found and another 50% outside of "the system". Quite the learning experience. Happily back in the pink now and moving off disability. Hope never to have to go through that again. I realize that as I get older I may not be so fortunate and will have to learn how to compromise with my aging body and resulting complications. But, for now, at least, I'm kicking.
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Julie Rehmeyer, Through the Shadowlands
permalink #23 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Wed 28 Jun 17 17:30
permalink #23 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Wed 28 Jun 17 17:30
Paulina, yes, absolutely, there are huge overlaps between mold illness and MCS. I never dealt with chemical sensitivities myself -- a huge blessing! -- but that's fairly uncommon for moldies. The general wisdom among moldies is that mold tends to be the bigger problem, and that if you do enough to deal with mold (i.e., a whole hell of a lot!), the chemical sensitivities will vanish without taking extensive avoidance measures. But it certainly seems like there are plenty of MCS folks who disagree. One possible explanation for the disagreement is self-selection: Perhaps mold is more central for some MCS-ers and not for others, and the ones its true for tend to consider themselves moldies. and those it isn't true for don't. That kind of self-selection is one of many reasons it can be hard to extrapolate from patient experience. In any case, it's clear that the overlap is really huge, as you say, and the core mystery is pretty much the same in the two illnesses: Yes, we know that mycotoxins can be bad for you, and we know that many manufactured chemicals can be bad for you -- but how can they be that bad in such tiny doses? We really haven't figured that out at all, and scientific inquiry seems to have mostly stopped at "Because the patients are crazy." In the case of mold, my guess is that the neurological and immune systems are both central. Our innate immune system comes preprogrammed to recognize elements of the skeleta of mold spores as invaders, inciting an inflammatory response. Cheryl Harding of Hunter College has done some really interesting work on this, tracking how in mice that are exposed either to the skeleta of the spores or to intact spores that are coated with mycotoxins, and she's found neuroinflammation either way. And she's shown behavioral changes in the mice that track with the neuroinflammation. I could easily imagine a similar immune hyperreaction being relevant to MCS. I also discuss in the book how I think there's a component of it that is a trained neurological response as well. In doing extreme mold avoidance, you're focusing on the tiniest sensations as signs that you're being exposed, and then you're getting the hell out of there. An excellent strategy for giving your body a hugely needed break -- but in doing so, you're practicing reactivity, in just the same way as you practice scales on the piano. When you practice scales on the piano, your fingers start to move faster and more surely. When you practice reactivity, your responses come faster and more surely, too. Note that I'm not saying that you're freaking out and the freak-out is increasing the response -- you could be cool as a cucumber and the same thing would happen. And in the book, I describe some techniques I developed to help my brain un-learn that response. But that learned response element is clearly not the whole thing. Mold made me sick long before I had a clue that mold had anything to do with it. Another possible explanation for hypersensitization is mast cell activation syndrome, which you can essentially think of as a particularly severe form of allergy that doesn't show up on ordinary allergy tests. It's only come to medical attention in recent years that mast cells can go haywire in these unusual ways, and it's beginning to be studied. It's a more reasonable hypothesis for folks with generalized MCS and less so for someone like me, who only reacts to mold. But basically, we need to figure out a whole lot more about all this.
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Julie Rehmeyer, Through the Shadowlands
permalink #24 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Wed 28 Jun 17 17:36
permalink #24 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Wed 28 Jun 17 17:36
Ted, I'm so glad you've found your way through! > I think the term "health care" as used to describe our system in the United States is an oxymoron. No kidding. It's insane for everyone involved. Sounds like you took a lot of responsibility for your own health, and that was key for finding your way. I do think it's essential for almost everyone interacting with this damn system of ours. And yes, Pamela, that's really true: The process of dealing with this illness forced me to become self-responsible in so many ways. For one thing, it really forced me to face the fact that life doesn't owe me a damn thing. It isn't fair, and it's not even supposed to be fair. It just is, and it's our job to deal with it, whatever it is.
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Julie Rehmeyer, Through the Shadowlands
permalink #25 of 90: Lena via lendie (lendie) Wed 28 Jun 17 22:06
permalink #25 of 90: Lena via lendie (lendie) Wed 28 Jun 17 22:06
What role do you feel Frances the dog has had in your health and healing?
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