Inkwell: Authors and Artists

    

Lisa, do you find it hard to not be able to use the word "daughter" 
anymore? Say you're talking to a new friend and mention emma, and they say 
"who's emma sue?" do you ever say "They're my daughter" withoiut thinking, 
or is it always "they're my kid" or child or...?
  

    
Re #48 -- we are (perhaps?) fortunate (?) in English that in talking
WITH someone we don't usually need a gendered pronoun.  Which means
that when it comes up most often is when the person we're talking
about is not around to ask.  I don't have to know your pronouns to
address you.  If/when am offending someone by referring to them by
accidentally using an incorrect pronoun they are (fortunately?) not
around to be offended or (unfortunately?) not around to gently
correct me.

I have hundreds of grammatical questions, but as that is not the
topic, I'm trying to think of non-grammatical ones.  Not really sure
what to ask.  I *want* to get people's genders right every time just
like I want to get their names right.  For me, neither of those
skills is easy.

Getting gender right every time will probably be easier for
generations who grew up with it from the time they learned language.
I think that actually *remembering* someone's gender pronouns is not
the issue (there are, as yet, only a few people in my life who
prefer non-traditional pronouns). The problem is rather that
conversation just flows, like muscle memory, without an active
"remembering" going on.

SO much of what we do is running on muscle memory, including
language. I am afraid that getting it right all the time will mean
needing to speak so slowly that people will assume English is a
second language to me.  Just as I am prone to take the wrong turn if
I'm heading on my commuting route but actually trying to go
somewhere else, unless I am NOT having a conversation, NOT listening
to the radio, and not letting my mind consider anything but
carefully picking the route.

In time it will get better, I expect.
  

    
By contrast: in Hebrew, the second person pronouns are also
gendered. So in saying "you" to someone you do need to know which
pronoun to use between "male-you" and "female-you".  I do not know
(am curious) if there is currently a non-gendered "you" pronoun now
available for use in Israeli society.

But when speaking French I *do* need to find out (or guess, and
fervently hope I'm not wrong and offending someone) when I choose
"tu" or "vous". Either way I could offend, but even asking seems
presumptuous, like asking everyone you meet "are we friends yet?"

I suppose we do have the same choice of (non-gendered) second-person
pronouns, at least historically, in English, but I have yet to see
someone with "Preferred Pronouns: Thee/thou" on their nametag :).  
  

    

<aslan> The way to remember someone’s pronouns and their gender (if
it’s not the same as the one they’ve had from birth) is again, to
just ask, but using someone’s pronouns isn’t the end-all-be-all to
gender inclusivity. The reason most people have an issue remembering
gender neutral pronouns or new terms for gender identity is mainly
because most people haven’t done the work of unconditioning binary
gendered thinking for themselves (which takes time!). If you’re
getting someone’s gender neutral pronouns wrong, it’s likely because
you haven’t yet undone the idea in your own brain that this person
is a boy or a girl. If you don’t truly see the person as non-binary,
if you still (even subconsciously) view them as a boy/girl, that
muscle memory won’t work. If you notice it’s hard for you to get
pronouns right or remember peoples pronouns, perhaps examine the
ways you think about gender and how you allow cisheteropatriarchial
conditioning to influence how you think about gender (because we all
do it, me included, but we’re all responsible for continuously
undoing that conditioning for ourselves) 
  

    
Who do I ask, though?  And when?  If I am talking with you, I have
no need to ask.  Your gender is most of the time not going to be
relevant to our conversation.  Asking might suggest that I can't
talk with you until I know your gender.  At a party I might not even
ask your name, unless we're planning to see each other again. (At a
professional gathering it is expected that we exchange names and
handshakes, although I will probably forget it immediately unless
you give me a business card.)

So: we have a conversation.  Later, I want to tell someone else
about something we spoke about.  Why should that person necessarily
know your gender?  So I have nobody to ask.

Are you saying that we should switch, in polite society, from asking
someone's name to asking their name and gender?  And to sharing it
commonly and freely as part of every introduction at a party or
business gathering ("Hi, I'm David, Male, he/him/his")?  It is true
that some nametags now do that, so maybe that is indeed what you are
saying.  I don't have a problem with that assuming that's what
everyone does.  But I don't see myself starting the trend.
  

    

I think we also need to talk a little bit about how ugly and reactionary our
country has become in recent years, as the Republican Party retreats farther
and farther into white/het supremacy. We're trying to make this a more
tolerant and egalitarian culture, and steering into a really, really nasty
headwind.

How can we do this not just without much help from the top, but with active
opposition from a huge cohort of ingorant and hateful people?
  

    
IGNORANT that is.
  

    
I have gotten very accustomed to calling Emma my adult child, my
eldest child, my kid, etc. Daughter doesn't even flow off my tongue
the way it used to. I guess that's time and practice. 

<aslan>, the point of having name tags with pronoun choices is so
that, when you are not in Emma's company, you know how to refer to
them. That was a difficult concept for me to understand. But you are
so right that the only time I really use Emma's pronoun is when
they're not part of the conversation. Which means, not only do I
have to remember Emma's gender, I have to then explain all of it to
the person I'm talking to. It's tiring, at times. But that's change.
Re-educating oneself takes time.
  

    
Anent 55, In workshops, seminars, and restorative justice circles*,
it is common to put one's name and pronouns on those charmless
"Hello!" labels. It's also increasingly common to put them in the
signatures of email messages. 

In this instances, as in this conversation, it is likely that one
person will reference what another contributed, so it matters that I
know that I should say, "When Emma said this, the way they put it
taught me something I hadn't known before. Now, I'm wondering..."

*in some major metropolitan areas, which is the extent to which I am
able to address this from personal, rather than theoretical,
experience  
  

    
Thoughts on pronouns and how it feels to be misgendered at work,
courtesy of Vice and some brave-enough-to-speak -- and have their
photos attached to their words -- trans and non-binary people: 

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/kzmy39/pronouns-at-work-trans-nonbinary
  

    
Thankful for this topic, and for it being available to the general
public to view. I shared it with my teenage daughter, who has
non-binary friends and is a stickler about guiding folks who are
confused or resistant in the use of folks' preferred pronouns.

Beginning as a fairly typical ignorant cishet grey-headed white guy,
I was baffled at first as to why I should give my pronouns to
people. Like, isn't it obvious? lulz

My daughter helped me understand that, first of all, it *isn't*
obvious. And if we want to create the kind of world where everyone
is free, then everyone has to do their part to make this sort of
thing a routine, natural part of greeting and conversation. The onus
shouldn't always fall to people who are already often marginalized.

It hasn't become habitual for me yet, but I hope to eventually
always remember, and have the courage, to add "I use he, him, his
pronouns" when introducing myself, no matter how goofy this
sometimes makes me feel.

Thanks again for this discussion. Looking forward to learning more.
  

    
So, we need a few more gender-neutral words even in English.  If my
sister's child uses "they" I cannot refer to them as my niece or
nephew.  I have siblings, and children. I have parents and
grandparents, and I have a spouse orpartner.

But what are my sibling's children, in one word?  I guess for now
they are my sibling's children.
  

    
Have been reading with great interest and I have a question. 

I've often tried as best I could to avoid gendered pronouns in
general because of the presumptions that often attach to the
choices. If, for instance, I'm talking about "the reader," I don't
love having to say she or he or he-or-she or she-or-he.

But now in the light of some of what's been said here, I would like
to know if non-binary persons would prefer that the "they" pronoun
be understood to mean particularly a non-binary person, rather than
be adopted by everyone regardless of their understanding of their
relationship to these questions. I.e., is "they" wanted to be used
as something that's neutral, or wanted to designate a particular
relationship to gender/sexuality/cultural understandings? (Hope that
question is comprehensible.)
  

    
I love this, <noebie> 
    >>>The onus shouldn't always fall to people who are already
often marginalized.

That's exactly how I feel, too. Emma keeps reminding me how
exhausting it is to be the marginalized AND the educator.

My siblings refer to Emma as *my sister's child* It's slightly
wordier, but a lot more accurate. Maybe *sibkid* will become more
commonplace, but until we create that word, *sibling's kid (or
child)* works. 

<jh>, excellent point. I've been using they to mean either he/she
for ages. I don't think we have to change that. There are two
meanings of they. And our usage is one of them. 
  

    
I like "sibkid".

<oemmasue>, I do still wonder about this issue of asking for
someone's gender. To me, it makes it sound as if your gender is very
important to our relationship, even in a very casual one. I feel as
if I should no more start a conversation by asking someone's gender
than I should ask their race or ethnicity.

The ONLY reason I can think of for needing to know someone's gender
is this weird quirk of the English language that makes talking
difficult otherwise.  If our pronouns were inflected due to race,
we'd either have to start all conversations by asking for someone's
race, or else we would have to invent non-racial pronouns and use
them consistently regardless of race.

I would prefer to do the same for gender. It's hard given the
language many of us grew up with, but I do think it's the better
option.

I don't know whether "they" is the right answer, though.

However, as <tnf> says, the country is not currently in a state in
which a sufficient majority will be willing to make such a change,
or even to suffer it tolerantly around them.  Doesn't mean it can't
start somewhere, and I do think it already has.
  

    
Self-identity in the US is sometimes funny.  I have a black friend, a
fiction writer and professor, who says he is not "African-American",
he's "Chicago-American" and wants to know if you have a problem with
that.
  

    
<aslan>, I don’t think you need to ask for the gender in order to
ask for their preferred pronouns. “Hi, I’m Lisa. I use she/her
pronouns. What are your preferred pronouns?”

In this way, I’m putting my own pronouns first in order to make it
more comfortable for the other person. 
  

    
I do no have a problem with Chicago-American at all.  
  

    
It may be a long time yet before a majority of people in our society
accept (or even consider) that gender is a social construct.

As we navigate all of this in the meantime, it seems to me that a
genuine respect for the integrity and dignity of every person may be
more important than protocol. I've found that a simple heartfelt
apology when getting someone's gender wrong can be the foundation of
a trusting relationship.
  

    
<aslan> the reason it’s important to ask for pronouns when
introducing yourself isn’t so you can pin a gender identity on the
person (especially because pronouns won’t always tell you what the
person’s gender identity is, just what they’d like to be referred to
as in the third person), it’s so that when you talk about the person
in the third-person you speak about them in the way they want to be
spoken about. Knowing someone’s pronouns isn’t about knowing their
gender or their sex, it’s like knowing their name- it tells you how
to address them whether they’re in the room or not. 
  

    
<noebie> has a great point, when you mess up someone’s pronouns, a
correction is all that’s needed. An apology is nice, but not
necessary. 
Example: 
Person- ‘I was talking to Emma and she- they said....’ 
you COULD say ‘I was talking to Emma and she- sorry- they said...’
but the apology isn’t necessary if you’re doing the work to correct
yourself. 

It’s ALL about the effort and intention. If you’re actively working
to reconstruct your ideas about gender and working to get someone’s
pronouns right, you’ll be forgiven for your mistakes because that’s
what they are- mistakes. It’s when people have the opportunity to
reconstruct those ideas and have countless chances to use the
correct pronouns and still continue to not do it, OR if they
actively avoid using the correct pronouns, that’s when it gets
offensive. 
  

    
> (especially because pronouns won’t always tell you what the
> person’s gender identity is, just what they’d like to be referred
to
> as in the third person)

Ok, that's a new one to me. I know that gender identity and gender
expression are different concepts, but I have so far assumed that
gender identity and "how you would like to be referred to in the
third person" were pretty closely linked.  Is the issue that there
is not a perfect one-to-one correlation given the multitude of
possible gender identities and the limited number of pronouns?
  

    
“They” can mean anything from “I’m working it out” to “gender-queer”
to “non-binary” and on. 

To know someone’s pronoun is not to know that person’s gender. To
know a person’s gender is not to know that person’s sexuality. Same
truth in all directions. 

Social constructs... In the US and UK, many politicians who speak
loudly about supporting LGBTQ rights and causes have websites where
the only choices on contact forms are he/she and Mr/Ms/Rev/Dr. Makes
me wince, every time. 

If you are an advocate (noun), then advocate (verb). Don’t play both
games against the middle. 
  

    
<aslan> 
> ...the issue that there is not a perfect one-to-one correlation
given the multitude of gender identities and limited number of
pronouns? 

That's a good way to put it. There ARE limitless terms for gender
identity (in my book, anyone can make up a word and call it their
gender- if it's your identity, I shouldn't care what you call it)
and there ARE limited pronoun options (though I suppose one could
make up as many new pronouns as gender identity terms if one were so
compelled). 

More than that, though, is the fact that we should avoid assumption.
If you ASSUME you know my gender (or my sex for that matter) based
upon my outward presentation OR my pronouns, you're already wrong
(even if you assumed the correct term for my identity). The goal
here is to stop trying to guess what someone's identity is, stop
trying to guess what genitalia exists under their clothes, stop
trying to pinpoint pronouns from afar, JUST ASK. You couldn't know
my favorite color upon first impression unless you asked me what it
is, how could you possibly know the terms I use to describe my
identity? 
  

    
<aslan> usually, pronouns and gender identity ARE closely related
(someone who uses 'they/them' likely falls somewhere under the
trans*/non-binary umbrella, someone who uses 'she/her' is a woman,
someone who uses 'he/him' is a man), nine out of ten times your
assumption of gender identity based on someone's pronouns will hit
close to the bullseye, but why take the risk of assuming incorrectly
when a. we know that trans* folx are some of the most at risk in
terms of suicide rates and using someone's correct pronouns/gender
identity terms can literally be life-saving and b. it's so easy to
ask!