Inkwell: Authors and Artists
Topic 52: Indra Sinha: Cybergypsies: Lust, War & Betrayal on the Electronic Frontier
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Indra Sinha: Cybergypsies: Lust, War & Betrayal on the Electronic Frontier
permalink #101 of 367: Micronet, death of (indra) Wed 27 Oct 99 15:31
permalink #101 of 367: Micronet, death of (indra) Wed 27 Oct 99 15:31
Lizabeth wrote: >You were helpful in bringing an end to Micronet (if you wish to give >an account of that situation, it would be useful -- maybe a thumbnail > sketch of the preceeding war and why you got involved). Yet even >though you had faxed off the materials that BT finally took seriously, > you were there for the very end, piled on a bed with all of the other > participants as the clock was striking midnight. What was it like for > you to be on both sides of that? > What were you feeling as the end came closer? And is the book >the first time folks knew that you were involved in bringing Micronet >down? If not, how did they react when they found out? I never intended to destroy Micronet. I think BT used the excuse of what had happened to can it, because at the time (1991) they saw no future in online communication. At the time nobody knew I had sent the fax. By the time the book came out, no-one cared. Shades is now in a new internet incarnation. It is not as it was. In the old days... in Shades there was a room, a private room, which no-one could see into. If it was empty, you could enter and... "You are lying on a soft, comfortable bed though somehow you don't think sleep is the appropriate course of action...the bed itself is a wonderful brass four poster that creaks slightly each time you move, and fitted with white satin sheets that slither sensuously against you...All around the bed the fittings and fixtures on the room's walls seem to indicate that you are in a bridal suite...a paler patch on the ceiling reveals there was once a mirror there." Into this room players went for what Private Eye magazine in London describes as "Ugandan purposes". Some players were well-known tarts, who tried to seduce just about everyone they met. The problem arose when one of these sirens approached a player who, unbeknownst to him/her was a ten year old child, playing on his uncle's computer. The child reacted with alarm when propositioned and called out. His uncle, who was a well-known player, complained to the game's management, and demanded that the bridal suite be closed. At which there was a huge outcry from other players, some of whom were pursuing personal feuds. This blew up into a major row which divided the players - there were in those days hundreds of them. A few, including myself, were on the side of the player who had complained. The opposition was led by - this sounds so ridiculous - a powerful Archwizard. The mutterings against my friend became a vendetta, co-ordinated by the Archwizard. An article, of the utmost scurrility and containing libels was published in the game's journal, edited by said Archwizard. When Micronet's dozy managers finally woke up to what was happening and insisted that the article be canned, the Archwizard resigned, at which point the surreality of the cyberworld finally overwhelmed reason. Hate messages against my friend poured in on the Shades chatline. The Micronet managers refused to remove them. My friend began to receive threats of physical violence and some hothead threatened to firebomb him, if anyone would publish his address. Within minutes the address was posted. But still the Micronet people did nothing. So I sent a fax to the Chief Executive of BT, quoting these things and asking when his company proposed to wake up to its responsibilities. Next morning all the chatlines were closed. Without them, Micronet was effectively dead. The official decision to close it down was not long coming. On the last night of Shades, all the players on the game piled into the bed in the bridal suite and counted down till midnight, as recounted in Cybergypsies. "Almost every Shades player who ever was is here, laughing as if midnight will never come. As the hour approaches, their hilarity builds. Finally there are only minutes left. Then only one minute. Together they count down to the end of the world. Ten...nine...eight... in the minds of the watchers, in those last few seconds, the ground shakes, lightning flashes above the forests...seven...six...they are shouting out the numbers now...five...four...the city walls begin to crumble, the castle's black towers tremble, totter and slowly start to fall...THREE!...TWO!...In the last second, lightning glares across a world collapsing, towers, trees and ruined city shimmer, vanish and are seen no more."
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Indra Sinha: Cybergypsies: Lust, War & Betrayal on the Electronic Frontier
permalink #102 of 367: Bhopal donations (indra) Wed 27 Oct 99 15:39
permalink #102 of 367: Bhopal donations (indra) Wed 27 Oct 99 15:39
Cynthia, I am touched by the speed and warmth of your response. Thank you. Unfortunately we have no means at the moment of taking online donations. However, cheques can certainly be sent to: The Pesticides Trust (Bhopal Account) Eurolink Centre 49 Effra Road London SW2 1BZ UK I'll try to find a US address to which donations can also be sent.
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Indra Sinha: Cybergypsies: Lust, War & Betrayal on the Electronic Frontier
permalink #103 of 367: Lizabeth...thanks (indra) Wed 27 Oct 99 15:54
permalink #103 of 367: Lizabeth...thanks (indra) Wed 27 Oct 99 15:54
Lizabeth, it seems rather corny to say "I'm glad you asked that", but nonetheless I am, not least because the Bhopal issue is something that so badly needs airing. There never was a game situation which could compare, but of course there was Halabja, the Kurdish town bombed with cyanide on the morning of March 16 1988. They too lost about five thousand dead in clouds of gas which stripped the linings from their lungs and left them drowning in their own fluids. Last year, in an effort to raise money in India I wrote the following (original in Hindi, this is a translation): TORTURE ME Throw acid in my eyes, play a blowtorch down my throat. Strip the lining from my lungs. Drown me in my own blood. Choke my child to death in front of me. Force me to watch her struggles as she dies. Spare me nothing. Make me curse God. Make me a child, then cripple me. Let pain be my daily, and my only playmate. Deceive me. Tell me lies. Destroy my life. Ruin my livelihood. Take my job. Give me no help. Tie my hands. Abuse me. Sneer at me. Treat me like shit. Fill me with despair. Kill all hope. Make me suffer for fifteen years. Torture me. Show no pity. Never say sorry. Do nothing to help. Make my heart crack my ribs with useless anger. Touch me with rage, make my hairs stand on end. Make me weep. Teach me what it is to be a gas victim of Bhopal.
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Indra Sinha: Cybergypsies: Lust, War & Betrayal on the Electronic Frontier
permalink #104 of 367: Cynthia Dyer-Bennet (cdb) Wed 27 Oct 99 16:11
permalink #104 of 367: Cynthia Dyer-Bennet (cdb) Wed 27 Oct 99 16:11
So much suffering in the face of such heartlessness. It's enough to make you weep. Indra, yes, please find a U.S. address if you can and post it.
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Indra Sinha: Cybergypsies: Lust, War & Betrayal on the Electronic Frontier
permalink #105 of 367: little modem on the prairie (lizabeth) Wed 27 Oct 99 20:14
permalink #105 of 367: little modem on the prairie (lizabeth) Wed 27 Oct 99 20:14
Indra, the section on Bhopal is one of the most powerful in the book. It might be a possibility for articles based on it in magazines or places like Salon: Bhopal, 16 years later (is that right?) and what's been done. It needs a good public airing. I agree with your decision to fax that head of BT. Real life threats cross the line. And I sympathize with the frustration with BT. In the early 90s, I worked for BT-NA (north america) and often brought up the net, the IP side, and what might be done for clients with it. The overwhelming response was that aside form finding the occasional tech RFC now and then, it was of no use to anyone but geeks and college kids. Even in the lynx/early web days, there was the same thinking. It gives me no end of pleasure to know how wrong they were. Indra, if you were able to speak to newcomers to the net, what are the five things you would most want them to know as they start this experience?
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Indra Sinha: Cybergypsies: Lust, War & Betrayal on the Electronic Frontier
permalink #106 of 367: Indra Sinha (indra) Thu 28 Oct 99 04:07
permalink #106 of 367: Indra Sinha (indra) Thu 28 Oct 99 04:07
1) For me the greatest value of the net is the people you can meet, the fun you can have, and the things you can learn and achieve together. 2) Commercialisation is inevitable, but because the net is a buyer's market, companies have to change the way they communicate, ergo the way they think. Bullshit doesn't work, they have to start offering something of real value. Worth remembering therefore that on the net, you are the boss. 3) Behind all the flashy websites is the realm of the imagination. For me, as I said in Cybergypsies, "cyberspace" is nothing more or less than a subset of the human imagination. At the two extremes of all the people I liked hanging out with on the net, there were two types: people who used the power of the imagination to create utopias in which they sought escape from the "real" world (Luna), and those who used their imaginations to try to change things in the "real" world for the better (Alastair McIntosh, Sathyu Sarangi)... ...Luna held that all experience is equally real and not to be downgraded because it is "only" in the imagination. How real do the people of Bhopal, of Halabja, of Kosovo, of Sarajevo and Dili and Kigali seem to us? Luna wrote in the "Cyber Sutra": "Pain is always real." 4) Bear, the book's narrator (ergo author's alter ego) tried to treat everyone he met with equanimity and a certain respect, whether they were loudmouthed virus writers, eccentric physicists who wanted to blow up the moon, roleplayers who struggled against their humanity, or activists for good causes like Alastair McIntosh and Sathyu. The joy of people is accepting and enjoying them as they are. It was not always possible to do this. Bear did not like Nasty Ned the Net Nark, but that was because Ned (currently in prison) was into child pornography. 5) The net is the hugest resource library ever - Shakespeare's plays searchable by words or phrases, what a boon for scholars - people who like learning will find it an endless pleasure. It is also a playground and a laboratory where you can discover things about yourself and stretch yourself. The Vortex is a perfect place for a writer or actor to try out characters. Any psychologist would have been fascinated by the weird ructions that heralded the death of Shades and Micronet.
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Indra Sinha: Cybergypsies: Lust, War & Betrayal on the Electronic Frontier
permalink #107 of 367: Wyrd ructions *excerpt* (indra) Thu 28 Oct 99 04:32
permalink #107 of 367: Wyrd ructions *excerpt* (indra) Thu 28 Oct 99 04:32
Even while speaking he stole away from Wyrd the keen smoking blade, whirling it around his head and gathering all his massive strength, like an eagle that pierces the dark clouds to seize a young lamb or cowering hare, so Hagstor stooped, waving the savage sword; but Wyrd rushed against him, mad with anger, and lifing up his shield to receive the blow, sparing his gold-hornèd helm, won in the lion's mphitheatre, stole back the sword and struck. Noble Hagstor laughed aloud, reached to take it back, but even as his fingers closed round the hilt, its shining blade grew dark, the gleaming edge was like a great comet fading in a night of stars, the brightest star resolving to a gleam, malign and deadly, from the fang of the evil-toothed rat, which once more appeared in Wyrd's mailed hand. At the tender place where neck and shoulders join crazy Wyrd let drive the rat, its foul decaying teeth sank deep into Hagstor's neck yet clave not the windpipe, that Hagstor might yet speak unto his foe. And Wyrd shouted so that all the land could hear, 'Hagstor, when you murdered Truffles, I doubt you dreamed that any could avenge him, yet now I've loosened your knees, I disdain to finish you myself, but by a low and carrion creature you will unseemy and dishonorably be despatched. Wyrd called then for the vile Worryguts, who took up a woodsman's heavy axe and with this blunt and rustic tool hastened to where Hagstor lay gasping his life out at the feet of Wyrd. Then strength gone, Hagstor of the flashing helm said, "I implore you by your life and knees and honour, do not let this peasant slaughter me, take my life yourself with a fighter's weapon, give me a warrior's death and my friends will forgive you this act of treachery.' But frowning in fury spoke pitiless Wyrd, "I'll not stop him from taking off your head; not if your friends bring here and weigh out thy weight in gold; but these small folk who hate thee shall look on and laugh." Thus in his dying spoke Hagstor of the flashing blade, "Wyrd I know you well and prophesy what shall be, if you do this, on you the wrath of the immortals will fall on the day when Hellborn and Mehitabel and the great Coder who made all things and British Telecom shall destroy you utterly. But even as he spoke Worryguts swung the axe and Hagstor's head flew from his body and his soul fled shrieking to the underworld whence none return, and to his corpse said Wyrd, "Lie there dead, Hagstor, my own fate I am content to accept when it is determined by the Coder and all the other immortals."
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Indra Sinha: Cybergypsies: Lust, War & Betrayal on the Electronic Frontier
permalink #108 of 367: Jesus Slut Fucker (jesuschrist) Thu 28 Oct 99 06:52
permalink #108 of 367: Jesus Slut Fucker (jesuschrist) Thu 28 Oct 99 06:52
Very strange. When I was invited to the Well I was promised that there was no censorship. It seems I was lied to. Whomever is censoring me is afraid even to approach me about it. They are the type of spineless coward who "scribs" over your posts and hopes no one notices (or just plain deletes it). LUKE GET YOUR DICK OUTTA MY WOOKIE! -REPUTED WORDS OF HON SOLO All in all it doesn't really bother me. Censorship snobs hurt themselves more than anyone else. In any case I will not be back until the censorship stops. Good day all! -Jesus P.S. Send twenty bucks in small bills to the following address to recieve an signed picture of Jesus (naked pictures are $50 extar): Geno Enterprises 909 N.W. 12 Suite S Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 73106
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Indra Sinha: Cybergypsies: Lust, War & Betrayal on the Electronic Frontier
permalink #109 of 367: David Chaplin-Loebell (dloebell) Thu 28 Oct 99 08:41
permalink #109 of 367: David Chaplin-Loebell (dloebell) Thu 28 Oct 99 08:41
Certainly if you were told that you were misinformed-- conference hosts can scribble and hide posts in their conferences. There's no mystery about who scribbled your posts: inkwell.vue.52.80: Geno Paris (jesuschrist) Tue 26 Oct 99 03:29 <scribbled by tnf Tue 26 Oct 99 14:40> inkwell.vue.52.82: Geno Paris (jesuschrist) Tue 26 Oct 99 10:55 <scribbled by tnf Tue 26 Oct 99 14:40>
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Indra Sinha: Cybergypsies: Lust, War & Betrayal on the Electronic Frontier
permalink #110 of 367: David Chaplin-Loebell (dloebell) Thu 28 Oct 99 08:53
permalink #110 of 367: David Chaplin-Loebell (dloebell) Thu 28 Oct 99 08:53
<scribbled by dloebell Thu 28 Oct 99 08:53>
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Indra Sinha: Cybergypsies: Lust, War & Betrayal on the Electronic Frontier
permalink #111 of 367: David Chaplin-Loebell (dloebell) Thu 28 Oct 99 08:54
permalink #111 of 367: David Chaplin-Loebell (dloebell) Thu 28 Oct 99 08:54
For the censorship policy, see http://www.well.com/user/confteam/hostmanual/section1.html#4
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Indra Sinha: Cybergypsies: Lust, War & Betrayal on the Electronic Frontier
permalink #112 of 367: Jesus Slut Fucker (jesuschrist) Thu 28 Oct 99 09:36
permalink #112 of 367: Jesus Slut Fucker (jesuschrist) Thu 28 Oct 99 09:36
The fact that there is a censorship policy speaks volumes. And dloebell boy, thank you I can read, you fucking moron, I know who censored me. I just don't know who tnf is. Censorship is it's own reward. -Jesus
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Indra Sinha: Cybergypsies: Lust, War & Betrayal on the Electronic Frontier
permalink #113 of 367: David Gans (tnf) Thu 28 Oct 99 13:35
permalink #113 of 367: David Gans (tnf) Thu 28 Oct 99 13:35
I'm one of the hosts of this conference. I made the decision in consultation with other involved parties to scribble your offensive, juvenlie and totally off-topic interjections.
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Indra Sinha: Cybergypsies: Lust, War & Betrayal on the Electronic Frontier
permalink #114 of 367: Steven Solomon (ssol) Fri 29 Oct 99 07:25
permalink #114 of 367: Steven Solomon (ssol) Fri 29 Oct 99 07:25
Thank you, <tnf>.
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Indra Sinha: Cybergypsies: Lust, War & Betrayal on the Electronic Frontier
permalink #115 of 367: Indra Sinha (indra) Fri 29 Oct 99 11:56
permalink #115 of 367: Indra Sinha (indra) Fri 29 Oct 99 11:56
Out of respect for my hosts on the WELL, I've not commented thus far on the ructions that have happened here. I feel a double responsibility, to David, Reva and Cynthia as their guest, and to Geno as the person who invited him to join in (at my request he was given a guest account for the purpose). It's a shame that David and others were brought to the point where they felt it necessary to expunge some of Geno's messages. I also owe Geno an apology. He would never normally have found himself on the WELL. It's not his habitat. I brought him here and told him to be himself... Relentlessly and indefensibly puerile though his messages were, that's what he was doing. Geno is an old friend. I know him well. Those messages, with their silly insults and quotes, are absolutely "in character" - at least that part of his character which was once described as "the bottomfish of echomail". There is another side to him - which more and calmer interaction might have revealed - as a man who paradoxically has spent most of his working life caring for other people, most recently the extraordinary crew he calls the "rock tribe", a band of crack users who came to him to sew up their knife wounds and plug their bullet holes. Over the last few months I have had some powerful and sensitive pieces of writing from him about this. How do such contradictions co-exist within a single person? I don't know, but this what makes people fascinating for me. It's why my book was about people not about "the net". I have to take responsibility for this fuck-up. It was my idea to bring Geno and other people from the book here. I thought it might be interesting for you. Apart from Geno, some people who I hoped might join in were Sathyu Sarangi from Bhopal, a guy who has devoted the last 15 years of his life to the relief of Carbide's gas victims, and Alastair McIntosh, whose recent adventures have included regaining ownership of the tiny and remote Isle of Eigg for its inhabitants from an absentee laird. They may yet show up, but what they will find remains to be seen. Meanwhile there is something more urgent. Appeal for help. Tomorrow I must drive to Dorset to see an old friend (we were at university together) who is very ill with a condition called CADISIL about which little is known. Seems to be a chromosomal disorder which shows up in the mid forties in a series of blinding headaches that are often mistaken for migraines. They are actually small strokes, and each one destroys a little bit of the brain. My friend began suffering from this only about three years ago, but is by now extremely ill. The doctors can do nothing for him and the prognosis is bad, basically more strokes, dementia and death. If anyone here has any knowledge that could help, or knows anyone who might know something, please email me: indra@well.com.
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Indra Sinha: Cybergypsies: Lust, War & Betrayal on the Electronic Frontier
permalink #116 of 367: David Chaplin-Loebell (dloebell) Fri 29 Oct 99 15:51
permalink #116 of 367: David Chaplin-Loebell (dloebell) Fri 29 Oct 99 15:51
Best wishes to your friend. Sorry I don't have anything concrete to offer. I enjoyed meeting Geno-- despite his claim that I'm a fucking moron, which I'm not. It is interesting to see people outside their natural habitats; I hope more of your friends/characters show up. I do think it's nice if people who are visitors try to at least understand the rules and norms of the places they visit, but I also understand that Geno is a person who is all about ignoring rules and norms.
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Indra Sinha: Cybergypsies: Lust, War & Betrayal on the Electronic Frontier
permalink #117 of 367: little modem on the prairie (lizabeth) Fri 29 Oct 99 16:10
permalink #117 of 367: little modem on the prairie (lizabeth) Fri 29 Oct 99 16:10
From my perspective, this topic is about Indra and his book. It's tangentially about other people and other things, but the purpose is to interview Indra about his book. When the other rah-rah starts, it deflects from the purpose of the topic, it makes people disinclined to participate, it is a nuisance for me (I put some considerable time into prepping for this interview in a hurry), and it gets the interview lost in the shuffle. There are so many wonderful facets to Indra's book. I'd like to see them get their fair share of air time. I hope your other friends find their way here, Indra, they have a lot to offer. Indra, you might want to put your health question over in the Health conference. There is a lot of help available there from those very knowledgable folks. If you don't have time, I'll copy it over there for you. And we'll pick up the interview on Sunday since it sounds like you have your hands full right now.
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Indra Sinha: Cybergypsies: Lust, War & Betrayal on the Electronic Frontier
permalink #118 of 367: Vicky (lilith-ann) Fri 29 Oct 99 16:16
permalink #118 of 367: Vicky (lilith-ann) Fri 29 Oct 99 16:16
<scribbled>
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Indra Sinha: Cybergypsies: Lust, War & Betrayal on the Electronic Frontier
permalink #119 of 367: Natural habitats (indra) Fri 29 Oct 99 16:26
permalink #119 of 367: Natural habitats (indra) Fri 29 Oct 99 16:26
David, I love mixing people together. When we give parties, which we try to do as often as money permits, we ask people from wildly different backgrounds and throw them together. I don't really mind what happens. It's usually fascinating, and fun. I think Sathyu is coming here, and will surely talk about what's happening in Bhopal. A friend of mine, Lilith from the Vortex, is coming (she is in the book too). She is an expert roleplayer, so if anyone is interested in the finer points, she is the person to ask. If Geno returns, why not get him talking about his life? There's that interview with him I've been flagging, to give some background. http://www.cybergypsies.com/geno-jesus.html He knows a lot about the hacker underground, if anyone is interested. For myself, I wouldn't mind talking about writing. Maybe the difficulty of introducing raw, live characters into a situation like this just emphasises the role a book plays in interpreting them.
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Indra Sinha: Cybergypsies: Lust, War & Betrayal on the Electronic Frontier
permalink #120 of 367: Lilith (indra) Fri 29 Oct 99 16:32
permalink #120 of 367: Lilith (indra) Fri 29 Oct 99 16:32
Lily! you made it! xxxx
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Indra Sinha: Cybergypsies: Lust, War & Betrayal on the Electronic Frontier
permalink #121 of 367: Cynthia Dyer-Bennet (cdb) Fri 29 Oct 99 16:35
permalink #121 of 367: Cynthia Dyer-Bennet (cdb) Fri 29 Oct 99 16:35
indra was slipped by the very person he mentioned in #119! Welcome to inkwell.vue, lilith-ann. How do you feel about the way you were portrayed in The Cybergypsies? Did you do any collaboration with him on the way you were presented?
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Indra Sinha: Cybergypsies: Lust, War & Betrayal on the Electronic Frontier
permalink #122 of 367: Cynthia Dyer-Bennet (cdb) Fri 29 Oct 99 16:35
permalink #122 of 367: Cynthia Dyer-Bennet (cdb) Fri 29 Oct 99 16:35
and I was slipped by indra. sheesh!
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Indra Sinha: Cybergypsies: Lust, War & Betrayal on the Electronic Frontier
permalink #123 of 367: Vicky (lilith-ann) Fri 29 Oct 99 16:41
permalink #123 of 367: Vicky (lilith-ann) Fri 29 Oct 99 16:41
<scribbled>
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Indra Sinha: Cybergypsies: Lust, War & Betrayal on the Electronic Frontier
permalink #124 of 367: Vicky (lilith-ann) Fri 29 Oct 99 16:44
permalink #124 of 367: Vicky (lilith-ann) Fri 29 Oct 99 16:44
<scribbled>
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Indra Sinha: Cybergypsies: Lust, War & Betrayal on the Electronic Frontier
permalink #125 of 367: Vortex, characters on (indra) Fri 29 Oct 99 17:04
permalink #125 of 367: Vortex, characters on (indra) Fri 29 Oct 99 17:04
It is true. People shouldn't confuse the character, Lilith, on the Vortex, with the person who plays her. Two quite different kettles of bouillabaise.
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