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John Hood and Andrew Lewin: Finding Dr. Who
permalink #101 of 169: Andrew Lewin (draml) Fri 17 May 24 00:57
permalink #101 of 169: Andrew Lewin (draml) Fri 17 May 24 00:57
As (jet) says, the theme wasn't created using a Theremin. But it also wasn't created using any sort of analog or electronic synth either. It wasn't created by any instrument in fact, so there were no controls. It was recordings of 'found sound' which might have included tones produced by sound waves from oscilloscopes (which is what the output of the earliest synths were based on as well) or a knock or a bang or a gasp or the wind or the hum of a gnerator; or scraping an iron key over the strings of a cello in the case of the Tardis sound. All of these individual sounds had to be recorded onto individual strips of tape, looped and repeated to make notes which were then lined up in very precise order to build up the arrangement. At one point they had to lay the strips down the longest corridor at the BBC at night when everyone had gone home to 'debug' it by eye in order to find a mistimed note. No one had ever done anything like this before to produce music with a melody, and thankfully technology meant no one would have to again. You can credit the Theremin for defining what a generation of listeners thought of as 'science fiction music' but it was already a bit of a cliche by the 1960s. Perhaps the most direct inspiration for the work of the Radiophonic Workshop was the extraordinary score Bebe and Louis Barrons produced for Forbidden Planet in 1956, but that wasn't 'music' in a recognisable sense. Certainly no one tuning in to the show in 1963 would have heard anything like this before as no such albums existed. Brian Eno was just 15 when Delia created the Dr Who arrangement. The Moog was still in development and not commercially available (not that the BBC had the budget for anything like it anyway). Wendy Carlos didn't release her first album, Switched on Bach - one of if not THE first commercial pieces ever produced on a Moog - until five years later in 1968. Kraftwerk didn't form as a group until 1970. And in each and every case I would bet good money that they had heard the Dr Who theme, and knew of the work of the BBC Radiophonic Workshop, and were inspired by it in some small part at least. The impact that sound had on November 23 1963 must have been extraordinary. And I'm also pretty sure that the show's first producer, Verity Lambert, knew exactly how it would define the show and grip viewers by the lapels and refuse to let go. Ron Grainer, on the other hand, probably never did understand his most famous and successful work. None of them could have predicted its longevity.
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John Hood and Andrew Lewin: Finding Dr. Who
permalink #102 of 169: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Fri 17 May 24 05:22
permalink #102 of 169: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Fri 17 May 24 05:22
Popular culture is weird that way. Most of it does slip beneath the waves rather promptly. But things which strike a chord can last a very long time.
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John Hood and Andrew Lewin: Finding Dr. Who
permalink #103 of 169: Andrew Lewin (draml) Fri 17 May 24 05:42
permalink #103 of 169: Andrew Lewin (draml) Fri 17 May 24 05:42
That's equally true for Doctor Who itself, of course. When the head of drama at the BBC, Sidney Newman, came up with the basic idea, they gave it a 13-week order. No one thought it would be renewed and most fully expected it to be pulled early. Newman himself was apoplectic when he found out that against his struct instructions, the second story featured 'bug eyed monsters'. Verity Lambert stood up for the Daleks and the story got made, but that appeared to be the end of the road for the show - and for Lambert's nascent career in TV production. Ephemeral piece of pop culture, quickly consigned to the wastebasket of history. Except here we are, over 60 years later, and it remains an international phenomenon; and Lambert herself went on to become one of the most successful producers of drama in the history of British television. Very weird indeed!
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John Hood and Andrew Lewin: Finding Dr. Who
permalink #104 of 169: Ian Scattergood (scatts) Fri 17 May 24 09:46
permalink #104 of 169: Ian Scattergood (scatts) Fri 17 May 24 09:46
Hi, I'm not really a Dr Who fanboy but this has been an interesting read. I watched as a child and found the Cybermen just a bit too scary. I guess this would have been late 60's early 70's. There was then a 40 year break and, for reasons unknown, I found myself watching quite a lot of episodes with Matt Smith and Karen Gillan. Since then, nothing. I may go take a look at the new guy just to see the evolution. Anyway, my point is, I was shocked, shocked I tell you, when you said in one of the early posts here that the Doctor is an alien. What!? Now, it's always been clear to me that he had abilities that are not found in humans but I have honestly never thought of him/her as anything other than a strange/super human, never as an 'alien'. Was there an episode where he 'came out' as an alien, you know "Yes, I'm an alien from the planet Zorg and I've been travelling ever since the Beebops destroyed our planet. I'm the only one to survive and I'm looking for [something]"? And if so, which episode was it? Or was it just left for viewers to come to their own conclusions? Supplemental question - is he/she looking for something? I mean, what drives the Doctor to engage in all this gadding about the universe, what's his/her mission or purpose? Last question - are the places/planets/worlds they all travel to deemed to be within our known universe, or there are multiple universes, or it has never been explained? Thanks
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John Hood and Andrew Lewin: Finding Dr. Who
permalink #105 of 169: Mary Mazzocco (mazz) Fri 17 May 24 09:50
permalink #105 of 169: Mary Mazzocco (mazz) Fri 17 May 24 09:50
Hmmmmmmmmm. Im not sure I ever DIDNT know the Doctor was an alien. But my aunt and uncle, huge SF fans, were the ones who told me about the show, so its possible they spoiled that fact.
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John Hood and Andrew Lewin: Finding Dr. Who
permalink #106 of 169: Ian Scattergood (scatts) Fri 17 May 24 09:56
permalink #106 of 169: Ian Scattergood (scatts) Fri 17 May 24 09:56
And in case those questions are too easy for you. Please explain River Song. She was popping up all over the place in the Smith/Gillan episodes I watched and there was always a lot of hinting, nodding and winking that she was really important but I never quite understood why. Did she continue as a character or not? How important is she to the whole story of the Doctor? slipped by <mazz>
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John Hood and Andrew Lewin: Finding Dr. Who
permalink #107 of 169: Andrew Lewin (draml) Fri 17 May 24 10:03
permalink #107 of 169: Andrew Lewin (draml) Fri 17 May 24 10:03
> Was there an episode where he 'came out' as an alien, you know "Yes, > I'm an alien from the planet Zorg Pretty much the very first episode I'm afraid! Which I grant you, neither of us were around for. In it, the Doctor says "The children of my civilisation would be insulted" and schoolteacher Ian queries the use of "my civilisation" to which the Doctor replies: Yes, my civilisation. I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it. Have you ever thought what it's like to be wanderers in the fourth dimension? Have you? To be exiles? Susan and I are cut off from our own planet, without friends or protection. But one day we shall get back. Yes, one day. One day. It's deliberately vague - it could be argued that the Doctor is from the far future - but he's clearly disdainful of Earth and doesn't see himself as of it. His first regeneration in 1966 is presented as proof that he's not human. After that he talks about being on the run from his own people for having stolen the Tardis. They are named and appear for the first time at the end of "The War Game" when he's captured by them and exiled to Earth for his meddling so at this point he's very much Not Human. His world is named for the first time as Gallifrey in "The Time Warriors" but by then we've visited it in "The Three Doctors". However he's not the last survivor of the Time Lords until the NuWho era when Russell T Davies wanted to clear out all the accumulated continuity and start afresh and he did this by having the Time Lords wiped out in a massive Time War against the Daleks. That was undone and then redone with the Master responsible but that got very messy and so RTD is doing a light touch on this by saying they died "of a genocide". The recent Chibnall era twisted the continuity further by stating that the Doctor is not even a Time Lord but was found by them abandoned on an alien world. It restores some of the mystery of the Doctor to the series after we found out too much about the Time Lords but it's driven fans berserk and is still controversial and unpopular. RTD is happy to lean into it though. I have to run so I'll leave it there for now.
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John Hood and Andrew Lewin: Finding Dr. Who
permalink #108 of 169: Andrew Lewin (draml) Fri 17 May 24 10:06
permalink #108 of 169: Andrew Lewin (draml) Fri 17 May 24 10:06
> Please explain River Song. No one can do that, not even Steven Moffat! Also: spoilers, sweetie! I'm woprried about spilling too many beans. She was important to the Moffat era. She's someone's daughter and ends up being the Doctor's wife so she leaves a pretty big impression on the show. And even though she died in her first story, she came back and may not yet be done.
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John Hood and Andrew Lewin: Finding Dr. Who
permalink #109 of 169: Andrew Lewin (draml) Fri 17 May 24 10:41
permalink #109 of 169: Andrew Lewin (draml) Fri 17 May 24 10:41
> Supplemental question - is he/she looking for something? I mean, > what drives the Doctor to engage in all this gadding about Well, what do you do if you're the last of your kind with Godlike powers and can go anywhere, anytime in the universe? Basically you pick up a travelling companion who can see the universe afresh, and see things through their eyes. Otherwise you'd suffer from terminal ennui, go mad or become suicidal. Some of that is covered by dialogue at the end of "Space Babies" incidentally so that's a good reference to look at. When the show started, the Doctor had no do-gooding instinct or desire to meddle. He didn't care about anyone else. But decades of travelling with (mainly) humans has given him insight and empathy to become the character he is today, fighting for the weak and powerless and those without help to overcome evil where he encounters it. He's a hero that's been made by his experiences and those he's been with, not born into existence. > are the places/planets/worlds they all travel to > deemed to be within our known universe For the most part, yes. Most stories are in one coherent universe. But there have been trips to parallel universes (1970's Inferno for example). There have been little pocket universes. And in Flux, the villain tried to wipe out this universe and completely overlay it with another. The recent "Wide Blue Yonder" suggested that there were bigger elemental forces beyond the edge of the known universe - basically, if you looked into the black void out there, there were forces looking back at and into you. Very Nietzsche! And it's these forces that include the Toymaker (from "The Giggle" and Maestro (from "The Devil's Chord" which expand the limits of what the show can do in terms of justifying stepping outside established science fiction continuity. Phew. Is any of this helpful? Making sense?
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John Hood and Andrew Lewin: Finding Dr. Who
permalink #110 of 169: like ... uh... bonjour, baby (kayo) Fri 17 May 24 13:37
permalink #110 of 169: like ... uh... bonjour, baby (kayo) Fri 17 May 24 13:37
I would love to see River Song come back.
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John Hood and Andrew Lewin: Finding Dr. Who
permalink #111 of 169: Andrew Lewin (draml) Fri 17 May 24 13:49
permalink #111 of 169: Andrew Lewin (draml) Fri 17 May 24 13:49
Me too, I'd be very up for that. The character is great and Alex Kingston is a wonderful actor. She recently did a solo "dramatised reading" as I believe it's called of Mary Shelley's Frankenstein for BBC4, and made it totally mesmerising.
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John Hood and Andrew Lewin: Finding Dr. Who
permalink #112 of 169: John Hood (johnhood) Fri 17 May 24 14:33
permalink #112 of 169: John Hood (johnhood) Fri 17 May 24 14:33
Is that reading available on BBC Sounds? Alexa, open
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John Hood and Andrew Lewin: Finding Dr. Who
permalink #113 of 169: Andrew Lewin (draml) Fri 17 May 24 14:49
permalink #113 of 169: Andrew Lewin (draml) Fri 17 May 24 14:49
It was actually for the TV channel BBC4 rather than the radio one, so you'll find it on iPlayer. It was broadcast on March but I believe it's still available. The series title is "The Read" and the most recent was Steve Pemberton reading The Remains of the Day. It looks like they also have Christopher Eccleston performing A Kestrel for a Knave, the source of the 1970s film Kes. <https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/proginfo/2024/10/read-frankenstein>
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John Hood and Andrew Lewin: Finding Dr. Who
permalink #114 of 169: John Hood (johnhood) Fri 17 May 24 15:06
permalink #114 of 169: John Hood (johnhood) Fri 17 May 24 15:06
Excellent and thanks!
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John Hood and Andrew Lewin: Finding Dr. Who
permalink #115 of 169: Ian Scattergood (scatts) Sat 18 May 24 00:46
permalink #115 of 169: Ian Scattergood (scatts) Sat 18 May 24 00:46
Thank you for the explanations back there, Andrew! Looking at the enemies; are the Daleks and Cybermen still around? From all the episodes you've seen (is that ALL of them?), what would you say the percentages are between.. Enemy killed - dead and no longer a threat Enemy converted or persuaded to change - alive but no longer a threat Doctor & Co escaped - enemy still alive and still a threat
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John Hood and Andrew Lewin: Finding Dr. Who
permalink #116 of 169: Andrew Lewin (draml) Sat 18 May 24 02:05
permalink #116 of 169: Andrew Lewin (draml) Sat 18 May 24 02:05
You're very welcome, thanks for asking the questions! The Daleks and Cybermen are very much still around, and the 2022 special "The Power of the Doctor" saw them ream up with The Master, another enduring adversary. But there's a risk of overuse and Russell T Davies is working on new foes for the current run rather than rehashing the same old threats. I think it was Steven Moffat who said, "How many times can you have the Doctor defeat the Daleks before they lose their menace and just look like a bunch of perpetual losers?" so he had stories in which the Daleks succeeded and the Doctor was lucky to escape and survive, and to save his companions and other innocents rather than "win". I couldn't even begin to make a guess about the percentages you mention. Genuinely wouldn't know where to start. I would say that in the earliest days of the show - 60s and 70s - it was standard for the Doctor to win by either killing or disabling the enemies. But times changed and even before the reboot in 2005 it was becoming clear that it wasn't right for the character to go around killing people and aliens and whole species. The Daleks (and I cant believe we haven't spoken about them more in this discussion!) are an interesting study. In the very first Dalek serial in 1963/1964 they were a dying race on the dead planet Skaro trying to annihilate the peace-loving Thals, and it was an us-or-them situation in which the Doctor had no qualms about wiping the Daleks out to save the Thals. It helped that the Daleks were irredeemable, implacable bad guys from the start. But of course that wasn't the end of the Daleks. The thing with travelling in time and space is that you can go back to when they were still around and an even bigger threat, so the Doctor kept on bumping into them. Instead of a small group Of survivors on a dying world they were now the most feared creatures in the galaxy. Eventually the Doctor was dispatched back to Skaro by the Time Lords, this time at the point of the Daleks' creation, and told to change time and stop them from ever existing or change them to make them capable of empathy and remorse. There is the famous scene of Tom Baker holding two wires to set off an explosion that will end the Daleks for good, and he has his most famous fit of conscience - "Have I the right?" - and frankly he bottles it. At best he delays the Daleks' rise by a few hundred years. A fan theory is that this overt hostile act by the Time Lord is what results in the later Time War that all-but wipes out both the Daleks and the Time Lords. So that was a big turning point for the show which became more moralistic and about doing good rather than defeating and killing the bad guys, hence the right wing media attacking today's show as too woke. Certainly there was a period in Moffat's tenure in which every monster or threat turned out to be someone or something in need of a hug and a bit of understanding to sort out the situation. Even the Master was rehabilitated, and we got a "good Dalek" at one point but it didn't last, and the Master and the Cybermen teaming up to kill the Time Lords has put them beyond saving or redemption. RTD is aware that the audience needs the catharsis of a big bad that is emphatically beaten and/or destroyed, but so far he's stuck to thwarting their plans and having them banished or imprisoned so they are no longer a threat. In the case of Spaces Babies the mindless monster in the basement was just a misunderstood house guest who didn't mean any harm, and was happy to fit in once everyone else stopped screaming in abject terror every time he popped up. It's quite heartening to see the depiction of societal morals and empathy grow and develop in such a positive way over six decades.
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John Hood and Andrew Lewin: Finding Dr. Who
permalink #117 of 169: Andrew Lewin (draml) Sat 18 May 24 02:19
permalink #117 of 169: Andrew Lewin (draml) Sat 18 May 24 02:19
I'm sorry, I'm talking too much. Again. A brief coda: > From all the episodes you've seen (is that ALL of them?) I haven't seen them all, no. All the ones since the 2005 reboot, yes. Putting aside the 90 or so "lost" 60s episodes from the BBC archives (they were destroyed to reclaim and reuse expensive video tape) there's some episodes that I have never got around to watching, even once they came out on VHS and DVD. Including one very famous story that I won't ever admit to not having watched as it would destroy my credibility as a Whovian! It's got to the point now where it has supernatural significance akin to The Ring: as long as I still have it on my to-watch list, it means I can't die! I'll keep it for my death bed in the old people's home in 2077. I'm very keen to see if there are any more questions or subjects to cover, but there's also a brand new Doctor Who episode out there, Steven Moffat's "Boom". It's streaming on Disney+ and BBC iPlayer right now and broadcast on BBC One in the UK this evening which is when I'll be watching it. Discussion welcome here, but we'll try and keep it spoiler-free - there's a whole topic in <whovians.> for more open chat. Hope to see you there!
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John Hood and Andrew Lewin: Finding Dr. Who
permalink #118 of 169: Ian Scattergood (scatts) Sat 18 May 24 02:36
permalink #118 of 169: Ian Scattergood (scatts) Sat 18 May 24 02:36
Thanks again and enjoy the new episode!
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John Hood and Andrew Lewin: Finding Dr. Who
permalink #119 of 169: Alex Davie (icenine) Sat 18 May 24 03:19
permalink #119 of 169: Alex Davie (icenine) Sat 18 May 24 03:19
Andrew, Kudos you and your cohorts in crime for creating this topic..your erudition and familiarity with the content is remarkable.. I esp. like the continuity of your experience with Dr. Who..all in all, I enjoy reading yalls posts..so rock on wit yor bad self (some of you will get the reference, others will not)
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John Hood and Andrew Lewin: Finding Dr. Who
permalink #120 of 169: Andrew Lewin (draml) Sat 18 May 24 04:49
permalink #120 of 169: Andrew Lewin (draml) Sat 18 May 24 04:49
I'm really glad you've been enjoying it! It's actually a regular Inkwell topic, so credit has to go to (jonl) for the idea. But it's true that's it's been a somewhat unusual entry in the Inkwell annals as it's not as intellectual and serious as many of the discussions here tend to be. After all, it's just about a TV show - so we've had the freedom of being more freeform and creative with the mix of the discussion. Normal Inkwell service will resume on Tuesday with a new invited guest, but John and I will still hang around on the sidelines for chat about new episodes and to answer any questions people might still have. And of course the <whovians.> conference will also continue through to July so there's still plenty to come. (Consider that fair warning!)
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John Hood and Andrew Lewin: Finding Dr. Who
permalink #121 of 169: Andrew Lewin (draml) Sat 18 May 24 05:10
permalink #121 of 169: Andrew Lewin (draml) Sat 18 May 24 05:10
> rock on wit yor bad self For me the reference is to the Kermode and Mayo film review podcast. But I suspect others will have a different idea?
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John Hood and Andrew Lewin: Finding Dr. Who
permalink #122 of 169: John Hood (johnhood) Sat 18 May 24 07:20
permalink #122 of 169: John Hood (johnhood) Sat 18 May 24 07:20
Let the good times roll...
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John Hood and Andrew Lewin: Finding Dr. Who
permalink #123 of 169: Andrew Lewin (draml) Sun 19 May 24 02:54
permalink #123 of 169: Andrew Lewin (draml) Sun 19 May 24 02:54
Saturday saw the release of the third episode (of eight) of the 2024 season of Doctor Who entitled "Boom", and it was a particularly highly anticipated one because of who was was writing it: former showrunner Steven Moffat. Moffat is probably one of the top five drama writer/producers working in British television today; Russell T Davies being another, "Happy Valley"'s Sally Wainwright a definite third. So to see Moffat and RTD reunited on Doctor Who after so many years was very special indeed to fans. And even non-fans couldn't have missed the elevation in tone and style for this episode. I'm not going into spoilers for "Boom" here (we have a whole topic in <whovians.> for that, as well as a spoiler topic for a piece of information that only became clear in the post-show behind-the-scenes Unleashed) but I'm just going to flat out say it was excellent. Maybe not the show's (or Moffat's) best of all time but that's up against very stiff competition. It was certainly parking in the same vicinity, though. Moffat has been an arch-Whovian for almost as long as Davies. When Davies bullied the BBC into reviving Doctor Who in 2005 one of the first calls he made was to Moffat who had already made his name with kids shows like "The Press Gang" and comedies like "Coupling". Davies' big breakthrough project was the original UK version of "Queer as Folk", in which K-9 plays a key role. The result of that initial collaboration was "The Empty Child" two-parter which was one of the highlights of S1, very dark and scary compared with the rest of that year and especially the family-friendly stories written by Davies himself. In the second season Moffat provided the script for "The Girl in the Fireplace" which many still see as one of the most beautiful, romantic stories in all of modern Who. And then in S3 came "Blink", often cited as the best single episode of Doctor Who of all time. There was also "Silence in the Library"/"Forest of the Dead" which introduced the character of River Song. So Moffat was the 'impact player' brought in mid-season to smash it out of the park, which he did unfailingly. When Davies decided to leave the show in 2010, he called Moffat to let him know; and said, quite specifically, that it was Moffat's turn now and he simply had to take the job and that he mustn't **** it up. Which he managed for seven years, writing most of the episodes for Smith and Capaldi including the 50th anniversary special "The Day of the Doctor" and the magnificent "Heaven Sent". Even factoring in Davies and Terry Nation and Robert Holmes and many others, it's no exaggeration to call him the finest writer who ever worked on the show. He's since produced "Sherlock", "Dracula" and "Inside Man" and always said he would never return to Who. But now he's back! Could he live up to his reputation with his latest script? There may be a few quibbles with "Boom" (see the Whovians conference to dig into those) but for me it was everything I wanted from a Moffat episode. From a 2024 Who episode. And to also see him and Davies chatting about what it's like writing for the show in behind the scenes footage in Unleashed had me in paroxysms of delight, like the first very first time Superman and Batman ever teamed up, or Poirot and Marple. It was crossing the time streams in the most marvellous way, a real pinch-me moment. Being a Whovian does have its frustrations, but days like yesterday make it all worthwhile.
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John Hood and Andrew Lewin: Finding Dr. Who
permalink #124 of 169: Trekked into Whoville (debunix) Sun 19 May 24 08:03
permalink #124 of 169: Trekked into Whoville (debunix) Sun 19 May 24 08:03
Where do you find the extras? Or rather, where might those of us not in the UK expect to find the extras? On Disney streaming, I can see the episodes and the only extras available are trailers. no mention of a behind the scenes series.
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John Hood and Andrew Lewin: Finding Dr. Who
permalink #125 of 169: John Hood (johnhood) Sun 19 May 24 08:24
permalink #125 of 169: John Hood (johnhood) Sun 19 May 24 08:24
There is an official Doctor Who podcast. Hopefully, it will be accessible worldwide! <https://youtu.be/xS6ZPI6K8fs?si=O_jcibNs2w3Xkn3U>
Members: Enter the conference to participate. All posts made in this conference are world-readable.