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Donn Harris: This Darkness Has Got to Give
permalink #51 of 81: Alex Davie (icenine) Wed 26 Jun 24 09:46
permalink #51 of 81: Alex Davie (icenine) Wed 26 Jun 24 09:46
Speaking as another DeadHead, I have found many times the lyric snippets mimic or call forth certain elements of my particular life, at the moment..fer instance, I have always preferred cold coffee so I was surprised when I found a lyric snippet from Loser where the protagonist advises not to touch hard liquor, just a cup of cold coffee..I know this one is a minor congruence but there are other ones which follow along with my life and struck deeply when I first heard them..fer instance, Mama, Mama, many worlds I've come since I first left home when I first heard this lyric, Boy Howdy, did that lyric snippet ever deeply resonate with me..the list goes on and on
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Donn Harris: This Darkness Has Got to Give
permalink #52 of 81: Paulina Borsook (loris) Wed 26 Jun 24 10:25
permalink #52 of 81: Paulina Borsook (loris) Wed 26 Jun 24 10:25
#50 makes sense to me: a community sharing the same scriptures. the cross-references are also interesting. just musing on how much the words rather than the music matters in deadhead culture.
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Donn Harris: This Darkness Has Got to Give
permalink #53 of 81: David Gans (tnf) Wed 26 Jun 24 10:30
permalink #53 of 81: David Gans (tnf) Wed 26 Jun 24 10:30
> What makes a lyric work is resonance; it expresses a univeral truth in a > way that makes it instantly comprehensible, as though you'd always known > it but never had the words to articulate it. As Hunter wrote, "things we've never seen will seem familiar." My watchword as a songwriter is: personalize the universal, and univeralize the persona.
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Donn Harris: This Darkness Has Got to Give
permalink #54 of 81: David Gans (tnf) Wed 26 Jun 24 10:31
permalink #54 of 81: David Gans (tnf) Wed 26 Jun 24 10:31
And, oddly enough, JOHN DENVER articulates it concisely: "Coming home to a place[you've] never been before."
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Donn Harris: This Darkness Has Got to Give
permalink #55 of 81: David Gans (tnf) Wed 26 Jun 24 10:32
permalink #55 of 81: David Gans (tnf) Wed 26 Jun 24 10:32
<50> yes! You can utter one of these phrases in a room full of strangers and count the nodding heads.
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Donn Harris: This Darkness Has Got to Give
permalink #56 of 81: Paulina Borsook (loris) Wed 26 Jun 24 11:37
permalink #56 of 81: Paulina Borsook (loris) Wed 26 Jun 24 11:37
wrt #50 this whole discussion reminds me of growing up in an assimilated jewish household but in a very gentile community --- and realizing how much language/literature/memes/cultural referents/etc were xian. and i was not part of this religious tradition. obv even if not a deadhead one is immersed in dead language and music. and yes i understand the power of lyrics as embedded in music. but still. 'all romantics have the same fate. cynical and drunk and boring someone in a dark cafe'. i think in general i lack the tribal group-identity gene, another reason why deadhead culture has been so baffling to observe from the outside. thanks for taking my questions.
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Donn Harris: This Darkness Has Got to Give
permalink #57 of 81: Alex Davie (icenine) Thu 27 Jun 24 01:46
permalink #57 of 81: Alex Davie (icenine) Thu 27 Jun 24 01:46
Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right Another zinger line that resonates deeply with me and I daresay all of us have known or met the girl with rings on her fingers and bells on her shoes Or have had one of those deja vu moments, as in: As I picked up my matches and was closing the door I had one of those flashes I had been there before Been there before Or the whole Miscontrued Lyrics, fer example:In the thick of the evening when the dealing got rough She was too pat to open and too cool to bluff I had always heard that line (no pun intended) as if she was too packed to open as in her nose was already too full of cocaine to open up for anymore..it was only later that I discovered those lines were written about gambling..my life at the time resembled (1972-1989) that Misconstrued Lyric..I quit cold turkey in 1989 The list goes on and on and that is just one song that I have commented about here..the resonations just keep comin
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Donn Harris: This Darkness Has Got to Give
permalink #58 of 81: Axon (axon) Thu 27 Jun 24 08:13
permalink #58 of 81: Axon (axon) Thu 27 Jun 24 08:13
I've always considered "His job is to shed light, not to master" as songwriting advice from a winning coach.
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Donn Harris: This Darkness Has Got to Give
permalink #59 of 81: David Gans (tnf) Thu 27 Jun 24 10:51
permalink #59 of 81: David Gans (tnf) Thu 27 Jun 24 10:51
I like that. > I had always heard that line (no pun intended) as if she was too packed to > open as in her nose was already too full of cocaine to open up for anymore That's wild!!!
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Donn Harris: This Darkness Has Got to Give
permalink #60 of 81: David Gans (tnf) Thu 27 Jun 24 10:53
permalink #60 of 81: David Gans (tnf) Thu 27 Jun 24 10:53
The students in my Stanford class made a t-shirt (and Stanford was kind enough to let us use their logo!) On the back it says You Ain't Gonna Learn What You Don't Wanna Know My friend and colleague Rebecca Adams co-authored a book with that title: <https://archive.org/details/deadheadsocialsc00adam/page/n5/mode/2up>
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Donn Harris: This Darkness Has Got to Give
permalink #61 of 81: Paulina Borsook (loris) Thu 27 Jun 24 11:29
permalink #61 of 81: Paulina Borsook (loris) Thu 27 Jun 24 11:29
that book looks very interesting
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Donn Harris: This Darkness Has Got to Give
permalink #62 of 81: David Gans (tnf) Thu 27 Jun 24 15:39
permalink #62 of 81: David Gans (tnf) Thu 27 Jun 24 15:39
She took a Sociology Methods class on tour withh the Grateful Dead in 1989. I met many of them and am still in touch with some of them. And with Rebecca!
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Donn Harris: This Darkness Has Got to Give
permalink #63 of 81: David Gans (tnf) Thu 27 Jun 24 16:40
permalink #63 of 81: David Gans (tnf) Thu 27 Jun 24 16:40
Rebecca writes: I took the book title from the back of OUR class shirt in 1989. It was Robbie Freeman's idea and Alyce Wimbish's husband designed the shirt for us. I just talked about a discussion I had with Barlow about how he didn't like the lyric because it was too pedantic (this was for Jesse's current podcast about Money, Money, which Barlow mentioned in passing during the same conversation).
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Donn Harris: This Darkness Has Got to Give
permalink #64 of 81: David Gans (tnf) Thu 27 Jun 24 16:42
permalink #64 of 81: David Gans (tnf) Thu 27 Jun 24 16:42
I find it fascinating that Barlow disavowed that brilliant observation!
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Donn Harris: This Darkness Has Got to Give
permalink #65 of 81: David Gans (tnf) Thu 27 Jun 24 16:43
permalink #65 of 81: David Gans (tnf) Thu 27 Jun 24 16:43
Rebecca adds: "I had this conversation with Barlow sometime in 1990 just before the lyrics to BTW were changed."
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Donn Harris: This Darkness Has Got to Give
permalink #66 of 81: David Gans (tnf) Thu 27 Jun 24 16:48
permalink #66 of 81: David Gans (tnf) Thu 27 Jun 24 16:48
BTW here is a proer link to Rebecca's book, which is still in print. <https://rowman.com/ISBN/9780742502512/Deadhead-Social-Science-'You-Ain't-Gonna -Learn-What-You-Don't-Want-to-Know';>
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Donn Harris: This Darkness Has Got to Give
permalink #67 of 81: Paulina Borsook (loris) Thu 27 Jun 24 19:53
permalink #67 of 81: Paulina Borsook (loris) Thu 27 Jun 24 19:53
must thank the hosts for letting me use this conversation as a 'everything i ever wanted to know about Dead culture but was afraid to ask" - that newer description of rebecca's book raises an important question: for a band which sold as many tickets as it did and which, for example, counted mainstream folks such as venture capitalists among its fans --- how can it be characterized after say the 1980s as larger society being hostile to it? or is my living in the bay area for so many years tainting my understanding? - the antipathy between me + barlow has been documented elsewhere and wont be recapitulated here. but it was always clear to me that his use of language reflected a strong classical liberal arts education --- something which i was also the beneficiary of. so among other things i often felt in his writing 'oh, i know where you are getting those sonorities from. i have similar ones in my resevoir'. thus, less impressed, perhaps. in other words, i felt 'derivative' rather than 'inspired'. ymmv, obv. - are there new deadheads being created? or will the culture gradually die off? - what are former deadheads like? what do they feel about their previous affinity? - finally, the guy who was one of my practitioners for many years was also jerry's, fwiw. RIP, much beloved and missed randy baker md.
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Donn Harris: This Darkness Has Got to Give
permalink #68 of 81: David Gans (tnf) Fri 28 Jun 24 10:23
permalink #68 of 81: David Gans (tnf) Fri 28 Jun 24 10:23
> must thank the hosts for letting me use this conversation as a 'everything > i ever wanted to know about Dead culture but was afraid to ask" To the extent that it contributes to the discussion of Donn's book, you are welcome.
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Donn Harris: This Darkness Has Got to Give
permalink #69 of 81: David Gans (tnf) Fri 28 Jun 24 10:26
permalink #69 of 81: David Gans (tnf) Fri 28 Jun 24 10:26
> are there new deadheads being created? Yes! There are hundreds of bands around the country playing Grateful Dead music, and their audiences are not all geezers. See <http://gratefuldeadtributebands.com/> I cohost a talk show on SiriusXM's Grateful Dead channel, and we get lots of calls from people in their 30s and even younger. I know of at least one family that is three (if not four) generations into it!
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Donn Harris: This Darkness Has Got to Give
permalink #70 of 81: Paulina Borsook (loris) Fri 28 Jun 24 12:04
permalink #70 of 81: Paulina Borsook (loris) Fri 28 Jun 24 12:04
but that's an interesting question: young fans of the music? or young members of the larger deadhead culture?
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Donn Harris: This Darkness Has Got to Give
permalink #71 of 81: Virtual Sea Monkey (karish) Fri 28 Jun 24 12:50
permalink #71 of 81: Virtual Sea Monkey (karish) Fri 28 Jun 24 12:50
Both.
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Donn Harris: This Darkness Has Got to Give
permalink #72 of 81: Robin Thomas (robin) Fri 28 Jun 24 12:55
permalink #72 of 81: Robin Thomas (robin) Fri 28 Jun 24 12:55
Several years ago I gave my son an autographed copy of Davids book. Knowing David upped my coolness quotient considerably. Im not a Deadhead, but Im Deadhead-adjacent.
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Donn Harris: This Darkness Has Got to Give
permalink #73 of 81: David Gans (tnf) Sun 30 Jun 24 15:27
permalink #73 of 81: David Gans (tnf) Sun 30 Jun 24 15:27
That's sweet! I host a call-in show on SiriusXM Sunday afternoons (and we're planning to talk with Donn net week!). Lots of younger callers, and we even heard from little kids (often prompted by their parents, of course) from time to time. This is a rich culture and there are many portals into it. I had a caller today who talked about being made so welcome in the crowd, and I had the impression that that was almost as important as the music in making him a fan. Nearly 60 years into it, it's fun to meet people and compare notes about all the times you've been in the same room having the same ecstatic experience.
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Donn Harris: This Darkness Has Got to Give
permalink #74 of 81: Helen Rossi (hlnbkt) Sun 30 Jun 24 18:38
permalink #74 of 81: Helen Rossi (hlnbkt) Sun 30 Jun 24 18:38
And so many hugs post-shows as lots of us bade adieu to newly made friends.
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Donn Harris: This Darkness Has Got to Give
permalink #75 of 81: Alex Davie (icenine) Mon 1 Jul 24 05:39
permalink #75 of 81: Alex Davie (icenine) Mon 1 Jul 24 05:39
Agreed, Helen! Big hugs were exchanged always with the cats and kitties I was always in line with @ Winterland (show after show over several years cos we always got there at the same time for each show so we we were always line buddies along the wall of Winterland waiting for Winterland to open its doors)
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