Inkwell: Authors and Artists
Topic 555: Miriam Zellnik: The Vaudeville Murders: A Libby Seale Mystery
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Miriam Zellnik: The Vaudeville Murders: A Libby Seale Mystery
permalink #0 of 49: Axon (axon) Sun 9 Feb 25 15:02
permalink #0 of 49: Axon (axon) Sun 9 Feb 25 15:02
We're delighted that our featured author is Well member Miriam Zellnik as our guest for the next two weeks, discussing her new book _The Vaudeville Murders: A Libby Seale Mystery_, which she co-wrote with her brother. Miriam and Joseph Zellnik are a bicoastal brother-sister writing team. When not writing mysteries, Miriam (based in Portland, OR) has also written such hard-hitting reportage as "The Magic 8-Ball Book" and "Vampire in a Box" for Running Press. By day, she works as a technical writer. She's been on the well since 1997, and even though she joined as a young adult, in some ways she would even say she grew up here. In addition to the Libby Seale books, Joseph (based in New York) is also author of "The Sound of Murder," first in the new Musicals Are Murder series. He's also co-author of the upcoming "Periodic Table of Broadway Musicals", from Hachette. As a composer, Joseph has written the scores for numerous musicals, including the off-Broadway hit "Yank," which has been produced across the country and around the world.
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Miriam Zellnik: The Vaudeville Murders: A Libby Seale Mystery
permalink #1 of 49: Axon (axon) Sun 9 Feb 25 15:05
permalink #1 of 49: Axon (axon) Sun 9 Feb 25 15:05
Miriam, thanks for being a guest in Inkwell. Can you tell us a bit about the genesis of this new edition, and why you decided to self publish it?
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Miriam Zellnik: The Vaudeville Murders: A Libby Seale Mystery
permalink #2 of 49: 99 Percent Pseud Free! (mim) Sun 9 Feb 25 15:46
permalink #2 of 49: 99 Percent Pseud Free! (mim) Sun 9 Feb 25 15:46
Happy to. The genesis was really that our original publisher (Midnight Ink, a subsidiary of Llewellyn Press) folded, and we got word a few years ago that all rights, including the ebook version, reverted to us. At that time, we tossed around the idea of republishing those existing versions as kindle books, but when we actually sat down and read the two books, we saw several things -- from small typos to larger plot points -- that we thought could be better, so we decided not to self-publish until we had a chance to really get in there and create better versions. In some ways, it's a writer's dream -- to get to go back with the benefit of 20 years more of experience and fix the things that bugged you with an already-published book. I will say that the first book, Murder at the Portland variety -- now The Vaudeville Murders -- was a lot cleaner, and really most of what we did was trim down incredibly long sentences (we do have a way of going on and ON, my brother and I, having never met a parenthetical aside we didn't love). We made a few small changes to the action, but for anyone who read the orginally-published 2005 version, this new one is basically the same but better. Original: 105,000 words Current book: 78,000 words Kind of amazing we found so much to prune, but there you go. We both think it reads so much better this time round. The second book (Death at the Rose Paperworks) had a lot more things we'd consider outright structural issues and plot holes, and that is taking us much more time to get in a state where we'll be happy to share a new version with the world -- Title still in flux, but we hope to release that in late 2025.
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Miriam Zellnik: The Vaudeville Murders: A Libby Seale Mystery
permalink #3 of 49: 99 Percent Pseud Free! (mim) Sun 9 Feb 25 15:47
permalink #3 of 49: 99 Percent Pseud Free! (mim) Sun 9 Feb 25 15:47
BTW I feel compelled to issue a disclaimer: I am a HORRIBLE typist and sicne I post to the well using a text-based interface without spell check, I need to apologize up front that there WILL be typos. I am trying my best to use a bit more care than usual.
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Miriam Zellnik: The Vaudeville Murders: A Libby Seale Mystery
permalink #4 of 49: Susan Carley Oliver (ohbejoyful) Mon 10 Feb 25 12:46
permalink #4 of 49: Susan Carley Oliver (ohbejoyful) Mon 10 Feb 25 12:46
Mim, how did the self-publishing process differ from your work with Midnight Ink?
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Miriam Zellnik: The Vaudeville Murders: A Libby Seale Mystery
permalink #5 of 49: 99 Percent Pseud Free! (mim) Mon 10 Feb 25 21:19
permalink #5 of 49: 99 Percent Pseud Free! (mim) Mon 10 Feb 25 21:19
Dramatically, because we were resonsible for everything this time round -- cover image (good thing Joe's a graphic designer among his many talents), layout, creating the actual kindle and print files, and of course, any publicity. Not that our publisher was really all that helpful in the publicity department last time, but they did set up a few book release events and helped find me a few places to sign books. And of course, they had an in-house cover designer and book design person so we didn't have to do any of that last time.
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Miriam Zellnik: The Vaudeville Murders: A Libby Seale Mystery
permalink #6 of 49: Paula Span (pspan) Tue 11 Feb 25 08:57
permalink #6 of 49: Paula Span (pspan) Tue 11 Feb 25 08:57
That is a LOT of editorial pruning, my friend. Roughly 25 percent? Editors would love you. I'm interested that your original publisher allowed the rights to revert to the authors. My sense is that that's kinda of unusual, given the evolution of platforms unforeseen in the original contracts and the possibility of further revenues. I wonder if Midnight Ink only did so because it was folding.
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Miriam Zellnik: The Vaudeville Murders: A Libby Seale Mystery
permalink #7 of 49: 99 Percent Pseud Free! (mim) Tue 11 Feb 25 09:07
permalink #7 of 49: 99 Percent Pseud Free! (mim) Tue 11 Feb 25 09:07
I am sure that was the only reason. I seem to recall they had let the print rights revert to us about 10 yrs after publication (by then the books were officially out of print), but they held the digital rights and our agent said they'd probably keep them forever, I mean, why not? If the occasional Kndle book sold 15 yrs after publication, they would reap the profits, not us.
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Miriam Zellnik: The Vaudeville Murders: A Libby Seale Mystery
permalink #8 of 49: Stoney Tangawizi (evan) Wed 12 Feb 25 09:51
permalink #8 of 49: Stoney Tangawizi (evan) Wed 12 Feb 25 09:51
At the halfway point (Kindle says 50% read), Mrs Greenblatt appears. Guess I should have wondered what a single, Jewish woman without local roots or relatives is doing in Portland, Oregon of all places? Im guessing most readers will know what a get is (easy enough to Google). That is quite a segue from an interesting but somewhat conventional mystery into something else entirely. I presume that development was in the original? Was it halfway or placed differently?
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Miriam Zellnik: The Vaudeville Murders: A Libby Seale Mystery
permalink #9 of 49: 99 Percent Pseud Free! (mim) Wed 12 Feb 25 10:29
permalink #9 of 49: 99 Percent Pseud Free! (mim) Wed 12 Feb 25 10:29
Oh interesting question. I'm not sure what point of the original his existance was revealed. Let me go look. (pause as I dig up old drafts) Interesting, still at the halfway point, almost exactly. In my word doc of the 1st boook, first mention of Greenblatt on p. 126 of 256 pages total.
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Miriam Zellnik: The Vaudeville Murders: A Libby Seale Mystery
permalink #10 of 49: Axon (axon) Wed 12 Feb 25 11:38
permalink #10 of 49: Axon (axon) Wed 12 Feb 25 11:38
Hostly ministerial post: This conversation is publicly accessible, meaning anyone can read it, whether or not they are a member of the WELL, which is the online community platform hosting this two-week discussion. For non-members, here's a short link for easy access: <https://tinyurl.com/inkwell555>. The full link is: <https://people.well.com/conf/inkwell.vue/topics/555/Miriam-Zellnik-The-Vaudevi lle-Mu-page01.html>. Either link will open the first page of the public conversation. If you are not a WELL member, we encourage you to visit regularly as the discussion will expand across multiple pages. Use the pager (dropdown menus at the top and bottom of the page) to navigate through the conversation as it evolves. Feel free to share either link via social media, email, etc. If you're not a member of the WELL, you can't post a response directly. However we welcome your comments and questions - you can email them to inkwell (at) well.com, and we'll post them here on your behalf. If you'd like to participate in more discussions like this, consider joining the WELL: <https://www.well.com/join/>. The WELL is an online community with vibrant, thoughtful conversations on a wide range of topics---an excellent alternative to the fast-paced, drive-by posting on social media. This conversation will continue for at least two weeks, through Febrary 24th, although the conversation will remain active, and users can continue the discussion for as long as there is interest, and access the discussion to review.
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Miriam Zellnik: The Vaudeville Murders: A Libby Seale Mystery
permalink #11 of 49: Jennifer Powell (jnfr) Wed 12 Feb 25 12:43
permalink #11 of 49: Jennifer Powell (jnfr) Wed 12 Feb 25 12:43
Congrats on your renewed book, mim! This is so exciting. Many of my writer friends have self-published, either alongside more conventional publishing or in place of it. I know that everyone's main concern in the battle for attention these days is in how to get your work in front of people's eyeballs. Do you have any particular plans in that regard?
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Miriam Zellnik: The Vaudeville Murders: A Libby Seale Mystery
permalink #12 of 49: Virtual Sea Monkey (karish) Wed 12 Feb 25 13:18
permalink #12 of 49: Virtual Sea Monkey (karish) Wed 12 Feb 25 13:18
I'm enjoying imagining, while I read, the challenge of inventing what the characters think and say within the context of late 19th century mores and manners. Now I wonder about the distance between how people would talk to themselves and to each other back then versus what writers would/ ould publish.
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Miriam Zellnik: The Vaudeville Murders: A Libby Seale Mystery
permalink #13 of 49: Andrew Alden (alden) Wed 12 Feb 25 13:39
permalink #13 of 49: Andrew Alden (alden) Wed 12 Feb 25 13:39
Repeating pspan's amazement at pruning 25% of the old manuscript. That is a remarkable achievement that only an author could do.
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Miriam Zellnik: The Vaudeville Murders: A Libby Seale Mystery
permalink #14 of 49: 99 Percent Pseud Free! (mim) Wed 12 Feb 25 14:13
permalink #14 of 49: 99 Percent Pseud Free! (mim) Wed 12 Feb 25 14:13
jnfr -- We haven't really done much work in the self-promo department. I mean, here I am, this is about it! Part of the issue is that sicne this is not a "NEW new" book it's hard to really put out PR since it's really a republishing of an older work. I do want to send something out to local Portland media outlets, just have to figure out whyat to say. And of course we are posting on our own personal social media platforms, but neither of us is an infleuncer of note. Hoping word of mouth helps, and we also signed up for Kindle Unlimited so anyone who uses that can read the book for free. We may try to use bookbub or another similar service to get the title in front of likely customers, but we're still researching how it all works.
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Miriam Zellnik: The Vaudeville Murders: A Libby Seale Mystery
permalink #15 of 49: 99 Percent Pseud Free! (mim) Wed 12 Feb 25 14:18
permalink #15 of 49: 99 Percent Pseud Free! (mim) Wed 12 Feb 25 14:18
also, oops, Just sent this discussion link to Joe and he pointed out I had the wrong word count for the current boook -- it's 94K, not 78K (I must have opened the wrong draft when checking). So while we DID do quite a heavy edit, I made it sound a bit more extreme than it actually was. Sorry!
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Miriam Zellnik: The Vaudeville Murders: A Libby Seale Mystery
permalink #16 of 49: redraw Gantt charts in his head (nanlev) Wed 12 Feb 25 15:17
permalink #16 of 49: redraw Gantt charts in his head (nanlev) Wed 12 Feb 25 15:17
So what WAS the state of Variety performance in Portland around the time of the novel. Were you able to research via historical records? Was it entirely made up? I'm only in the beginning, but I'm also wondering about having the action take place on the east side of the river. Wouldn't most of downtown have been on the west side? Or was there evidence of vaudeville-type places on the east side?
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Miriam Zellnik: The Vaudeville Murders: A Libby Seale Mystery
permalink #17 of 49: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Wed 12 Feb 25 15:29
permalink #17 of 49: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Wed 12 Feb 25 15:29
And were there really tunnels?
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Miriam Zellnik: The Vaudeville Murders: A Libby Seale Mystery
permalink #18 of 49: Stoney Tangawizi (evan) Wed 12 Feb 25 15:32
permalink #18 of 49: Stoney Tangawizi (evan) Wed 12 Feb 25 15:32
I have read about similar in Seattle.
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Miriam Zellnik: The Vaudeville Murders: A Libby Seale Mystery
permalink #19 of 49: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Wed 12 Feb 25 15:38
permalink #19 of 49: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Wed 12 Feb 25 15:38
There apparently were similar in Tijuana and Prescott, AZ.
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Miriam Zellnik: The Vaudeville Murders: A Libby Seale Mystery
permalink #20 of 49: 99 Percent Pseud Free! (mim) Wed 12 Feb 25 16:11
permalink #20 of 49: 99 Percent Pseud Free! (mim) Wed 12 Feb 25 16:11
There were a few theatres in Portland then, although not a dedicated vaudeville theater quite like the one in our book. nanlev, most of the action takes place downtown, on the west side, but we do have Libby's boardinghouse on the east side; she takes a trolley across the river. My 1890, there were the first stretcars going between the west side and Mt Tabor area on the east side. There were indeed tunnels. Fun fact: the genesis of this book was when I wrote an article for a now-defunct Portland magazine (Anodyne Magazine) where I had a chance to tour the tunnels with a personal guide. The article lives on on my old website, if anyone wants to read it: http://mim.our.net/tunnel.html I thought, hey, this would make a great setting for a mystery novel. But it wasn't until I had a long talk with my brother about it that the book really started th be more than a dream.
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Miriam Zellnik: The Vaudeville Murders: A Libby Seale Mystery
permalink #21 of 49: 99 Percent Pseud Free! (mim) Wed 12 Feb 25 16:13
permalink #21 of 49: 99 Percent Pseud Free! (mim) Wed 12 Feb 25 16:13
I did a bunch of research at the Oregon Historical Society, which has a library filled with folders of old press clippings (on paper!) and photos. I also used the Oregonian archives at the library on microfiche. It was very old-school research -- Of course it was in the early 2000's. By now, maybe all that stuff has finally been digitized.
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Miriam Zellnik: The Vaudeville Murders: A Libby Seale Mystery
permalink #22 of 49: Jennifer Powell (jnfr) Wed 12 Feb 25 18:01
permalink #22 of 49: Jennifer Powell (jnfr) Wed 12 Feb 25 18:01
Do you and your brother have a particular process? Or is it more casual?
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Miriam Zellnik: The Vaudeville Murders: A Libby Seale Mystery
permalink #23 of 49: 99 Percent Pseud Free! (mim) Wed 12 Feb 25 21:52
permalink #23 of 49: 99 Percent Pseud Free! (mim) Wed 12 Feb 25 21:52
The first book we wrote most of a first draft in 2000. After our dad died, Joe was planning a trip to London to sublet a friend's flat who would be traveling a few months, and I was able to take a leave of absence from my job at the time, and we spent something like 6 weeks living together in a (studio!) apartment in Elephant and Castle, working on the book. Our general process was talk through a plan for the next few chapters (we started with an outline we had hashed out before leaving, via email and phone). Then we'd split up scenes for first pass -- you write Peter going to the bar to interview the bartender, I'll write Libby going to Crowther's house. Then we'd pass along our parts to the other for edits/feedback. Then we'd smush all the scenes together and voila, a chapter! It helps that we both have a very similar sensibility and way of wording things, and I think the end result really does feel like it was written by one person. After that initial in-person time when we ended up with maybe 3/4 of the fiurst book, everything else was done via email and phone calls, except for a week or so that Joe visited me in Portland. All these years later, ther are a few things I remember mostly writing, and I'm sure he does as well, but an awful lot of it we genuinely don't recall who did the first pass of this or that scene.
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Miriam Zellnik: The Vaudeville Murders: A Libby Seale Mystery
permalink #24 of 49: 99 Percent Pseud Free! (mim) Wed 12 Feb 25 21:53
permalink #24 of 49: 99 Percent Pseud Free! (mim) Wed 12 Feb 25 21:53
The second book was much more shared doc and phone calls, very little time in the same place at the same time.
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Miriam Zellnik: The Vaudeville Murders: A Libby Seale Mystery
permalink #25 of 49: Ari Davidow (ari) Thu 13 Feb 25 09:25
permalink #25 of 49: Ari Davidow (ari) Thu 13 Feb 25 09:25
I'm only a quarter of the way into the book, but I _am_ struck by the racism of the time - something that has been in the news lately, what with current racist activity and the realization that Oregon was, essentially, a "whites only" state, written into its constitution, back then. What I don't have is any clear sense of the social mores back then, and in particular, what conversation would have sounded like. How did you get your sense of how people would speak to each other back then?
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