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Howard Rheingold - The Virtual Community, second edition
permalink #126 of 184: Katie Hafner (kmh) Fri 27 Oct 00 10:28
permalink #126 of 184: Katie Hafner (kmh) Fri 27 Oct 00 10:28
Speaking as a reporter, I've grown very anti-study lately. So many of them seem trumped up just to get attention (and they often, ahem, succeed). But the several years' approach on the part of the UCLA crew seems a good one. I wonder, though, how they plan to adjust their research methods as circumstances change (and the Net, as we know, is constantly changing). Speaking of change, Howard, I'm wondering what you think of the big contraction taking place right now in the dot com world and what it will mean when, say, eve.com doesn't exist any longer to harness the comestics "community." I'm wondering, off the top of my head, if you think that the streamlining will take us back to an earlier, less cluttered and noisy, perhaps even less commercial place, from a virtual community/online social network perspective. Will it all get cleaner somehow?
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Howard Rheingold - The Virtual Community, second edition
permalink #127 of 184: Howard Rheingold (hlr) Fri 27 Oct 00 10:33
permalink #127 of 184: Howard Rheingold (hlr) Fri 27 Oct 00 10:33
The non-commercial space where millions of creative people did wonderfully artistic, fun, public-spirited things online never wented away. It simply never got a lot of ink. You could probably search the WELL in 1994 and find people mocking the idea that money could be made on the Internet. Isn't there a kind of rolling public amnesia happening? Remember the "digital revolution" of the Rossetto era? I have evidence that at least some of the dotcom culture think of it as somewhere back there with the Summer of Love and the gold rush of 1849. I was at a party a Justin Hall's. I met a young woman who was a community director for a dotcom whose name we would all recognize. She asked where I met Justin. I said "Hotwired." She said: "What's Hotwired?" Now, with so may Internet stocks in the tank, perhaps the dotcom era is speeding into the past, and in a year and a half, newcomers to whatever the scene is by then will regard it as a quaint artifact of the past, along with the digital revolution, summer of love, and 49ers. I'm tempted to say that the people who fell for the level of bullshit that has accompanied some/much of the dotcom version are getting what they deserve. I know that I've been accused of debasing the terms, but I was truly outdone by some of the business plans and actual businesses in the "content, commerce, community" space. I'm working on an article now about the impact of the AOL lawsuits on volunteers. The WELL hosts might be affected. But the possibility that commercial operations will have to pay volunteers probably won't have a large effect on online communities, so many of which are totally non-commercial and held together by volunteer labor. Cooperating to create a public good without feeling cheated by freeloaders is what sociologists call "the collective action dilemma," I have learned. Without people who cooperated because they derived value from the common creation, and because it was cool to do, and because they got some ego gratification, where would the Internet, the Web, or, for that matter, the WELL, be today?
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Howard Rheingold - The Virtual Community, second edition
permalink #128 of 184: Katie Hafner (kmh) Fri 27 Oct 00 10:40
permalink #128 of 184: Katie Hafner (kmh) Fri 27 Oct 00 10:40
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Howard Rheingold - The Virtual Community, second edition
permalink #129 of 184: Katie Hafner (kmh) Fri 27 Oct 00 10:41
permalink #129 of 184: Katie Hafner (kmh) Fri 27 Oct 00 10:41
Am I hallucinating or did my last post just show up three times? Maybe I don't like Engaged so much after all? Why does the Well use it again?
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Howard Rheingold - The Virtual Community, second edition
permalink #130 of 184: Katie Hafner (kmh) Fri 27 Oct 00 10:45
permalink #130 of 184: Katie Hafner (kmh) Fri 27 Oct 00 10:45
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Howard Rheingold - The Virtual Community, second edition
permalink #131 of 184: Katherine Hafner (kmh) Fri 27 Oct 00 10:50
permalink #131 of 184: Katherine Hafner (kmh) Fri 27 Oct 00 10:50
Oh my god. It's Night of the Living Posts. I just bailed out of Engaged and am back on Picospan!
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Howard Rheingold - The Virtual Community, second edition
permalink #132 of 184: Cynthia Dyer-Bennet (cdb) Fri 27 Oct 00 11:29
permalink #132 of 184: Cynthia Dyer-Bennet (cdb) Fri 27 Oct 00 11:29
And it's not even Halloween yet! ;-)
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Howard Rheingold - The Virtual Community, second edition
permalink #133 of 184: Mary Eisenhart (marye) Fri 27 Oct 00 11:36
permalink #133 of 184: Mary Eisenhart (marye) Fri 27 Oct 00 11:36
Aiyee! Howard, if Denise's project is at all germane here, could you say more? I've always been a big fan of interdisciplinary cross-fertilization, and I think the people who are into Communities of Practice often see it as pretty important too.
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Howard Rheingold - The Virtual Community, second edition
permalink #134 of 184: Katherine Hafner (kmh) Fri 27 Oct 00 11:37
permalink #134 of 184: Katherine Hafner (kmh) Fri 27 Oct 00 11:37
Engaged remains a bit of a mystery to me...
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Howard Rheingold - The Virtual Community, second edition
permalink #135 of 184: Katie Hafner (kmh) Fri 27 Oct 00 11:47
permalink #135 of 184: Katie Hafner (kmh) Fri 27 Oct 00 11:47
Speaking of interdisciplinary work, David Zaret, whose book Howard was referring to, was trained as a sociologist, not a historian, but the cross-over has perhaps gained him more respect in academic circles.
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Howard Rheingold - The Virtual Community, second edition
permalink #136 of 184: Katie Hafner (kmh) Fri 27 Oct 00 11:53
permalink #136 of 184: Katie Hafner (kmh) Fri 27 Oct 00 11:53
The book, btw, is "Origins of Democratic Culture" (Princeton University Press)
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Howard Rheingold - The Virtual Community, second edition
permalink #137 of 184: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Fri 27 Oct 00 12:11
permalink #137 of 184: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Fri 27 Oct 00 12:11
(Katie, I hid the 'ghost' posts. We can erase 'em. I'll send you an email.)
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Howard Rheingold - The Virtual Community, second edition
permalink #138 of 184: Katie Hafner (kmh) Fri 27 Oct 00 12:42
permalink #138 of 184: Katie Hafner (kmh) Fri 27 Oct 00 12:42
Howard and I were just exchanging e-mail about the Zaret book and I think we'll bring the discussion back in here, where it seems very appropriate. Here's a description from the Amazon listing: "Zaret explores the unanticipated liberating effects of printing and printed communications in transforming the world of political secrecy into a culture of open discourse and eventually a politics of public opinion." Howard, you said in your email that you're particularly interested in the public sphere, since you believe that's where the Internet will have the longest-term and most profound impact on people's lives. What exactly do you mean by public sphere?
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Howard Rheingold - The Virtual Community, second edition
permalink #139 of 184: parenthetical comment: Howard Does MP3! (jonl) Fri 27 Oct 00 13:11
permalink #139 of 184: parenthetical comment: Howard Does MP3! (jonl) Fri 27 Oct 00 13:11
(Just wanted to mention that you can hear Howard reading a slice of _The Virtual Community_ at http://www.salon.com/audio/nonfiction/2000/10/27/rheingold2/ )
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Howard Rheingold - The Virtual Community, second edition
permalink #140 of 184: Howard Rheingold (hlr) Sat 28 Oct 00 09:54
permalink #140 of 184: Howard Rheingold (hlr) Sat 28 Oct 00 09:54
I will return later when I have slightly more leisure and post some small chunks from the book. A very simplified but not, I think, simplistic description of "the public sphere" is that it is where individuals of democratic societies exercise their citizenship by freely discussing the issues that concern them. It is where "public opinion" is formed. In other words, democracy is not just about voting for representatives. It's about people who are literate enough, free enough, and have the places and/or media where they can exchange views, disseminate information, apply reason and argument to the issues of the day, and, presumably, shape a public opinion that is well-informed enough for democratic governance to work. There is, obviously, a strong connection between communication media and the public sphere. The printing press, the television broadcasting station, the desktop connected to the Internet. Each communicatio technology affords to some people the power to inform, persuade, influence, organize others. The fact that the Internet transforms each desktop into (potentially) a printing press, place of assembly, and broadcasting station seems to me to be the most profound long term source of political change. How will that power be used? Will established power structures buy it, coopt it, find ways to censor it or otherwise seize control of gateways? Will a sufficiently large population understand and seize the opportunity that the new literacy affords -- as the populations of modern democratic nation-states seized the opportunities afforded by printing presses that didn't have to be licensed by the king? The origins of the modern public sphere are interesting to me because so many of the debates and politcal battles over the Internet clearly echo previous debates and battles over the press, radio and television.
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Howard Rheingold - The Virtual Community, second edition
permalink #141 of 184: Katherine Hafner (kmh) Sat 28 Oct 00 14:07
permalink #141 of 184: Katherine Hafner (kmh) Sat 28 Oct 00 14:07
Do you mean debates that took places over the press, radio and television, or debates *about* the role of the press, radio and television when it comes to the public sphere?
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Howard Rheingold - The Virtual Community, second edition
permalink #142 of 184: Amy Jo Kim (amyjo) Sat 28 Oct 00 14:11
permalink #142 of 184: Amy Jo Kim (amyjo) Sat 28 Oct 00 14:11
Those are deeply thought-provoking questions, Howard - thanks for articulating them! I look forward to being part of the dialog that starts to answer them. We're living in exciting times. In addition to empowering self-publishing (as you point out), the Internet also helps small-time content distributors thrive by lowering distribution costs, and making it easier to get into a tight feedback loop with your constituancy. This enables virtually unlimited narrowcasting (unless the gateways are closed through regulation) So... all these developments are reshaping what we mean by the "public sphere." How did the introduction of press, radio and television reshape the public sphere? And what does that teach us about the likely evolution of the Internet? tight feedback loop with their cons among a also exciting about the rise of the Internet is that it
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Howard Rheingold - The Virtual Community, second edition
permalink #143 of 184: Amy Jo Kim (amyjo) Sat 28 Oct 00 14:12
permalink #143 of 184: Amy Jo Kim (amyjo) Sat 28 Oct 00 14:12
<oops - katie slipped, and I made a typo. Ignore that last line>
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permalink #144 of 184: Howard Rheingold (hlr) Sat 28 Oct 00 14:44
permalink #144 of 184: Howard Rheingold (hlr) Sat 28 Oct 00 14:44
The press made three important kinds of changes in the polity: 1. Mass production of printed works initiated and fueled the growth of a literate population. The technology of a printing press is not in itself as important as the changes in the ways of thinking and communicating that it enables. Printing presses don't cause democracy (technological determinism), but they make literacy possible, and literate populations are capable of discussing, arguing, and taking action on issues of political governance. 2. Petitions, broadsides, letters to the editor (Common Sense, the Federalist Papers both come to mind) made it possible for a larger number of people to seek to influence public opinion. Indeed, the case is made by people who write about the public sphere that public opinion grew out of these exchanges. 3. When the ruler is capable of such influence, direct petitions offered a channel for public opinion to influence the ruler. Mass media of the electronic broadcast era, radio and television (particularly after the US govt regulated them in the way it did) enabled a relatively smaller proportion of the population to influence, persuade, educate, and mislead much larger populations. Television, in particular, because the most important factor in elections -- and one that demanded increasing amounts of money from political candidates. The enabling technologies for radio and television were inherently centralized and increasingly expensive. Through an accident of history (nobody building the communication grid or working on components of affordable personal computers foresaw that an entirely new medium would emerge when the computers were connected through the communication grid), every desktop can print, broadcast, publish, and enable discourse. Will this make a difference? That's what I think is the important question in regard to the Internet, the public sphere, and online discourse. I do strongly suspect that the quality of discourse is key. Flaming each other about guns, Israel, abortion, etc. isn't going to elevate the state of the public sphere, IMO. Interestingly, Benjamin Barber, author of "Strong Democracy," is working on software that enables and supports effective political discourse and decision-making.
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Howard Rheingold - The Virtual Community, second edition
permalink #145 of 184: Katherine Hafner (kmh) Sat 28 Oct 00 15:41
permalink #145 of 184: Katherine Hafner (kmh) Sat 28 Oct 00 15:41
J.C.R. Licklider, my personal hero (and an interdisciplinarian if ever there was one), did talk about computer networks and their potential for facilitating human communication and interaction.
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Howard Rheingold - The Virtual Community, second edition
permalink #146 of 184: Howard Rheingold (hlr) Sat 28 Oct 00 15:45
permalink #146 of 184: Howard Rheingold (hlr) Sat 28 Oct 00 15:45
I was fortunate enough to interview Licklider for Tool for Thought, albeit over the telephone. Many many people will tell you that there might not be personal computers or the Internet if it had not been for him -- both his personal charisma and his foresight. My chapter about him is: <http://www.rheingold.com/texts/tft/7.html>
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Howard Rheingold - The Virtual Community, second edition
permalink #147 of 184: Katie Hafner (kmh) Sat 28 Oct 00 21:53
permalink #147 of 184: Katie Hafner (kmh) Sat 28 Oct 00 21:53
And this little snippet on Licklider from my history of the Internet: The idea on which his world view pivoted was that technological progress would save humanity. The political process was a favorite example of his. In a a McLuhanesque view of the power of electronic media, he saw a future in which, thanks in large part to the reach of computers, most citizens would be "informed about, and interested in, and involved in, the process of government." He imagined what he called "home computer consoles" and television sets linked together in a massive network: "The political process...would essentially be a giant teleconference and a campaign would be a months long series of communications among candidates, propagandists, commentators, political action groups, and voters. The key is the self motivating exhilaration that accompanies truly effective interaction with information through a good console and a good network to a good computer." I think he wrote that in the 60s. Talk about foresighted....and optimistic!
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Howard Rheingold - The Virtual Community, second edition
permalink #148 of 184: Howard Rheingold (hlr) Sat 28 Oct 00 23:28
permalink #148 of 184: Howard Rheingold (hlr) Sat 28 Oct 00 23:28
One of the critiques that have been directed at my writing, and which certainly would be directed at Licklider's quote is that such words are "the rhetoric of the technological sublime." The magical ability to transform the most problematic aspects of human nature are projected onto technology. What would he have said of spammers? Kiddie porn? He and Taylor did issue a clear warning about what is now called "the digital divide." And they were writing in a time when the zeitgeist was far less critical of technology than today. Nevertheless, the point that has continued to seem important to me since 1993 is that the tool makes new kinds of hopeful cooperative social enterprises possible, but the tool is not the task. It takes people, working together, to use the tool to accomplish the kinds of ends Licklider foresaw, and which I still hope for. Clearly, a realistic look at the totality of online discourse reveals an enormous amount of ill-thought and often venomous spew. There is the expensively crafted disinfotainment of the megacorp, and there is also the spontaneous, emergent, grassroots self-disinfotainment of the online chattering classes. Rhetoric, syntax, logic -- the fundamentals of reasoned discourse -- are valued by a minority. Even clever flamage is a tiny fraction of raw pottymouth ravings. Are the flamewars in Usenet political newsgroups the kind of reasoned discourse that the public sphere requires? To which I can only reply: The final form of the medium isn't totally decided. The eternal triumph of the trivial is not yet accomplished. It's entirely possible that today's hopes for many to many empowerment through new media will be seen in the not too distant future as laughably naive. However, it isn't the distant future yet. Right now, it's still in play. What could people do to bring about a more vital public sphere, in which informed use of online discourse and publishing could play a part? I can't help but think that the most important need is to help more people learn basic netiquette and the fundamentals of effective communication -- and why all the same tired ploys that substitute for real argument are as unattractive as they are destructive. Surely, not everyone would be receptive to such education. But if it did succeed. If civility and intelligence were to gain a foothold, even a small one, the Net could enable the phenomenon that makes the Net such a disruptive technology -- effective communication might become infective and spread everywhere more quickly. Yeah, I guess an outbreak of reason would be considered by many, with good reason, to be naively utopian.
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Howard Rheingold - The Virtual Community, second edition
permalink #149 of 184: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Sun 29 Oct 00 08:11
permalink #149 of 184: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Sun 29 Oct 00 08:11
A couple of comments... Are we really talking about a medium here? Or an environment which encapsulates many media? If I view your last post with my engineer's hat on, I would say "But that's a training issue..." And I think you've said as much, but perhaps it bears discussing some more... When you seek to build the civil society, civility is inherently a 'training issue,' no? How do build an infrastructure to address the training issue? I think that's what tradition was for, but the postmodern view undermines any sense of tradition as representative of cultural chauvinism. How do you build a tradition within the postmodern soup? What are the codes for a new civility?
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Howard Rheingold - The Virtual Community, second edition
permalink #150 of 184: Howard Rheingold (hlr) Sun 29 Oct 00 09:36
permalink #150 of 184: Howard Rheingold (hlr) Sun 29 Oct 00 09:36
Alan Kay called the computer a "metamedium" precisely because it encapsulates and emulates all other media. The point I make when I use the word is to emphasize the social communication aspects of computers-plus-networks, which can do everything from direct the traffic of packages to mediate market transactions to serve as a knowledge repository for human genome mapping. <http://www.rheingold.com/texts/tft/11.html> Doug Engelbart started thinking about how people could use computers as communication media, and more -- as tools to think with, and to enable people to work together in ways that were never before possible. His classic 1962 paper on "Augmenting Human Intellect" emphasized that the machines are just part of a system that includes humans, artifacts, language, methodology, and training. Training is not an add-on. It's an essential part of the technology he foresaw. The fact that literacy about the use and context of technologies such as online communication is seen today as an add-on is a clue, I think, to what is wrong with this picture, and where we still need to go. <http://www.histech.rwth-aachen.de/www/quellen/engelbart/ahi62index.html> For a while, building a tradition was part of the norms and culture of social cyberspaces: Veterans new that the value of the public goods of the Internet was increased by spreading the norms of netiquette and cooperation. In this sense, netiquette certainly wasn't as simplistic as "no flaming." Indeed, newbies who asked questions that were in the FAQ were often educated by mailboxes full of flames. But the people who sent the flames were concerned enough about the norms of cooperation that made the Net valuable to try to pass them along, albeit rudely. The entire issue of civility is way beyond my capacity to address in a post, and is certainly part of a wider issue than online discourse. I suspect that it has to do with the rapid changes in the norms that have enabled people to exist as individuals in a competitive society, yet act collectively to create goods that serve everyone. I saw it in action yesterday when the electricity went out in part of my town. At several complex intersections, people treated the dead traffic lights as four-way stop signs. It worked pretty well in a couple of places. And in a couple of places, free riders blithely endangered themselves and others and gave their finger to the ad-hoc cooperation. A lot of words in that last graf. Probably means I don't know the answer.
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