A conversation with Bernie Siegel, M.D.
International Copyright 1995 Joe Flower All Rights Reserved
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Through one lens, Bernie Siegel is a "New Age" doctor with a hip, holistic point of view. Looked at another way, his message is as old as Hippocrates.: we must treat the whole person, not merely the organ, the system, the disease. People are complex. If we expect to heal and care for people, we cannot effectively reduce them to "the liver failure in 127" or "the torn ligament in Examing Room B." We have to deal with people's lives and emotions -- and with our own emotions as healers and caregivers.
For those who dismiss him as too soft and fuzzy, full of nice stuff that doesn't work in the real world, Siegel can refer to the increasing scientific, peer-reviewed literature in psychoneuroimmunology which identifies and quantifies specific therapeutic effects of such warm, fuzzy factors as hugs and touches, colors and smells, the beliefs we hold and the things people tell us.
Siegel's three popular books are Love, Medicine and Miracles (Harper and Row 1986), Peace, Love and Healing (Harper and Row 1989) and How To Live Between Office Visits (Harper Collins 1993). Now retired from his surgery practice, he gives lectures and workshops at Yale University and across the country. Since 1978, a great deal of his energy has gone into the pioneering Exceptional Cancer Patients (ECaP) group, a special type of "carefrontational" therapy designed to awaken each patient's own healing potential (for information, call 1 800 700 8869).
A general practitioner I knew, the father of a friend and former
partner of mine, used to say, "True good health is the ability to do without
it." That's probably my definition. In a sense, health has nothing to do with
one's body, but has more to do with one's attitude towards life. I meet a lot
of people who have a variety of afflictions that can't be cured, whom I call
really healthy people, because of their attitude towards life. They are a joy
to be with.
I read recently of an excellent example. The man had amyotrophic lateral
sclerosis, and was slowly losing all his bodily functions. Yet the writer
described him as a joy to visit. He said to the man, "You know, it's really a
joy to be here with you and your wife." And the man said, "What other options
are there?" And the writer said, "You could be moaning, complaining, bitter,
and resentful." And the fellow said, "Gee, I've never thought of it that
way."
That's the kind of person whose attitude makes me say, "Wow, what a healthy
person." They may be prisoners in failing bodies, or in institutions, but they
are free people because of what is going on in their minds. Disease has more to
do with what's going on in your head then what is going on in your body.
For a doctor, this gets worse as the years go by. Medical students have
some sense of this, but they get frustrated by the training, because its all
about writing prescriptions or recommending operations, and not really baout
dealing with people's life issues. One person told me recently that she never
really enjoyed practicing. She felt like all she was doing was putting patches
on all the time. I know a man who was was a family doctor and became a
psychiatrist because he got frustrated by what he couldn't do as a doctor.
Doctors' expertise is in dosing and cutting, because that's where our training
is. Yet studies have shown that the best indicator of the person who will
respond well to treatment is the patient who says that "the doctor listened to
my story and understood it." So listening to the patient matters -- knowing
their experience, and their story, and knowing what you are really treating.
Otherwise, you may be treating something mechanical, but that may not be what
the patient really needs. We need to listen, so that we can treat the patient's
problem, and not only what we are diagnosing.
Each person experiences an illness differently. You might have a room
full of people, all with the same physical diagnosis, but that doesn't mean
they are all going through the same thing. So you have to listen. You have to
say, "What are you experiencing? And how may I help you?" And they will tell
you. One may be feeling isolated, while another may be saying, "This is the
best thing that ever happened to me, because I quit my job." Somebody else has
another experience, and on and on. If every one of them got the same
prescription, you would be making a big mistake.
I knew a woman who was using her chronic disease to manipulate her family. The
family looked sicker than she did. They would hire a nurse to help, to be on
call in the house at night, and she would let the nurse sleep and wake the
family up. I said to her over the phone once, "Come to the office. I'll
guarantee you a cure." And she never came into the office after that, just
contacted me by phone. My sense was that she didn't want to be cured.
I knew the patient and her family. After she died the family didn't know what
to do with themselves. It took them two or three years of floundering around to
reestablish a life of their own, because suddenly they had all this time on
their hands.
If you get to know families and people, you know what is going on. Doctors need
to look at and understand these things. People are grateful, and come back
afterwards to thank you for a lot of the things that had nothing to do with the
physical problems they came to the office for. Rather they are thanking you for
the changes in their life that you opened them up to.
The word "doctor" means "teacher." But I don't think most of us go to a doctor
to be taught anything about life anymore. We go for mechanical reasons. My role
as a doctor is expressed in the sentence, "How may I help you?" Rather than
"What's wrong with you?"
That doesn't mean that I don't operate on people. I'm very much a traditional
doctor. It's a matter of utilizing all the resources available. In essence I
tell my patients, "This is what I can do for you as a physician. This is what
an operation or pills may do to help you. And then here is where you play a
part. This is what can you do. This part is about your life, your work, your
relationships, your nutrition, your habits."
Sometimes I tell people, "If we just took as good care of ourselves as we do of
our pets we would be all right. The world would be a lot healthier place."
Just look at issues like self-esteem and love, and how they relate to
self-destructive behavior. Is there anybody who doesn't know that smoking isn't
good for you? Or that being 50 pounds overweight isn't good for you? Or that
you should exercise, and eat moderately? This is not a secret. Yet why do so
many people have these problems? Why are there so many addicts? Why is there so
much suicide and violence? We can't separate health from what's in our
heads.
Last night on television they were showing something about cats. And they show
that if you take kittens and you massage them and rub them and touch them 20
minutes a day, they open their eyes a day sooner and they make better
relationships with people and other cats and they are better mothers and so
on.
Yet how many nurseries do you know in which, when a child is born, someone
talks to the mother and says, "Look, if you stroke and massage your child it
will develop sooner, it will be more peaceful, it will have better
relationships." Yet we know this is true. If you massage infants they gain
weight faster. And it isn't just the weight, it's the deeper effect of the
touch, what it's doing to the child. A child who isn't touched, and isn't loved
doesn't have self esteem. It's no wonder that we end up with sick teenagers and
adults, destroying themselves.
I try to get people back in touch with their true worth and value. Many people
wake up to that when they are told they will be dead in six months or a year of
some terminal illness. So you have an opportunity to teach them something about
themselves, about love and esteem. Some people tell me that their illness, in a
sense, was a gift. The irony, of course, is that, when they suddenly have this
great joy in living, many of them don't die on schedule.
Studies of the immune system show that it responds to beliefs and emotions. If
I ask you to play a role in a play, and then study your immune system as you
take on the role, your immune system will respond to your role. If, in the
play, your loved ones are killed in an accident, that stress will show up in
your body, even though you are just acting the part, if you are a good actor
and really involved in the part. You are displaying those emotions and your
body is responding to your acting.
This gives us a sense of how we can help people change, by urging them to act
like the person they want to be. That's, in fact, what many people do when
they're toldthey have six or twelve months to live. They're free. They can quit
their job, they can move. They can behave differently, live in the moment,
experience joy, say things they never would have said, and -- boom! --
suddenly they are this new person. And their body responds to that.
Now, what if we could learn to do that without having a life threatening
disease? That's what I'm telling people. And that's why I think a lot of people
come to listen. I say, "Don't wait till you get hit over the head with a
mallet." A lot of people thank me for the message. We all deal with
difficulties at various times. It may be a divorce, it may be something
smaller, but troubles can wake people up and cause them to begin to change.
My job is to love people, not to judge them, or force them to change. If
someone comes to my office who doesn't want to talk about their life, I say,
"That's okay, I'll do what I can for you." That's all. If I say, "What's
happened the last few years in your life?" or whatever else I might ask, and
they say, "Nothing," or "I don't want to discuss it," I say, "Okay, then let me
tell you what I can do for you." There are people who say that.
I went through a phase trying to save everybody. I think you can offend people.
I have learned that if a family member, or another physician, or a nurses
calls to say I want to you to call a particular person, I say, "Tell them to
call me. Here is my number."
Some patients say, "Don't talk to me like a doctor, tell me how I can help
myself." Others say things like, "Don't tell me about what I can do. What can
you do for me? Do you have a pill or an operation? I don't want to change my
job or my life or eat vegetables or meditate or whatever you have in mind." And
I just accept people. What I am there to do is offer them options, and let them
choose.
I tell a story of walking into an examining room, seeing a woman with a staph
infection, and saying to her, "Why do you have trouble saying no?"She had
something of an "Aha!" experience. She said, "Who from my family called you?"
If, on the other hand, she had said, "I don't want to get into all of this
nonsense, I heard about you," I would say, "Okay, I'll get one of my partners
to come in."
You can't educate people until people hurt. And then they come to you and say,
"Help me." That's the sad part, that they need to have some pain. That's why I
always argue with God. I didn't create this system. People need to have
something come up to make them change their pattern of behavior.
People go to a doctor and say "I am hurting," and the doctor says, "Here is a
pill that will stop the pain," instead of saying, "How can we use this? How can
we redirect you?"
I call life a labor pain. How can you give birth to yourself? How do we use
what comes our way? That changes the whole quality of the pain.
Ask a woman after she gives birth to a child whether it was worth it, and
she'll say, "Heck, yes!" That's what each person says: is it worth it? It
doesn't happen if the patient feels that "Dr. Siegel made me go through that,"
or "My family said, `Don't die.'" But when the patient chooses to go through
it, they will say, "When I chose it, and gave birth to myself, it was
wonderful." They also tell you about all the crap they have to let go of in
order to fit out of the birth canal again. Think of the junk you accumulate in
your life that really has very little meaning.
If you came to me with a headache, I would say, "What is the pain like?
Describe your pain." And I would listen to the words of the pain description.
And then I would ask, "What else in your life fits under that kind of pain?" If
you said it was like being squeezed, or it was knife-like, or like a pressure,
I would ask, "What's sticking a knife in you, what's creating pressure, what's
squeezing you." People go, "Oh!" and they know why they have a headache. That
doesn't mean there's anything wrong with taking an aspirin. But if you get to
the root of why you are having that headache, you don't have to have that
headache again.
I was training for a marathon and hurt my foot. One person came up to me and
said "What are you afraid of? Because if you're limping you don't want to go
somewhere." I said, "I'm not afraid of anything." It doesn't work to insist
that a particular symptom means a particular thing. Then somebody else said to
me, "Do you need to slow down?" I said, "Oh, that makes sense." Here I was
doing all this stuff, running miles every morning, fitting everything in.
So this discussion is not about coming up with the answer off of a list in a
book -- if you have a toothache it means you've bitten off too much, and if
your foot hurts it means you're afraid to go forward, and if your knee hurts it
means you're not feeling supported. It's about giving the person the right to
find their own answer.
In my work with patients in groups, I work a lot with people's drawings, and
this is true of the symbolism they put in their drawings. There are certain
symbols where you can make suggestions. If you left the ears off I might say,
"You could be deaf. You may not want to hear what's going on. You may not want
to listen to the doctor or your family."But you, the patient, have to tell me
which of those might apply. Because if you have a pain in your knee, you are
the expert in the knee pain, not your wife, your family, or your doctor. It's
your knee.
Medical education is beginning to change, though not as fast as I would like
it. Some schools are doing a very fine job with courses called humanistic
medicine, courses in ethical issues, emotional issues, and psychosocial issues.
Other schools are still very mechanistic and not doing much about it.
If we hope to educate doctors to be healers, medical education has to change.
We have to bring patients into the process early on, literally teaching and
talking to doctors about what they need from physicians. We need to teach
communication skills. We need to deal with the feelings that doctors go
through.
One of the main reasons we build that wall between us and our patients is we
can't take the pain we are exposed to. People are dying. There are many things
we can't cure. Doctors are sobbing in stairways and empty classrooms where
nobody will notice them. We need to say, "Look, it's appropriate to deal with
feelings. It isn't a sin to cry in public. Be with families, cry together,
share the pain. They'll support you." Instead of de-personalizing people and
physicians, we need to humanize both the doctor and the patient, and learn to
deal with all these things so we don't have to hide.
One recent study showed that if you interview the other patients of doctors who
get sued a lot, the patients will tell you that they don't like how this
physician treats them. They'll tell you that he or she doesn't listen. That's
why you end up getting sued.
On the other hand, a lot of doctors write to me in incredible pain, afraid that
they have made an error in diagnosis, feeling that it's their fault that
somebody may die now. If your wife says, "I have a headache," you don't rush
her to the doctor and say, "She could have a brain tumor." You say, "Honey,
that's too bad, can I get you an aspirin?" What if it turns out that it is a
brain tumor? If you were the doctor treating her, then how do you feel at the
end of a month or six weeks, saying, "Oh my gosh, I should have done this test
a month ago, and maybe she would have been alright." If a hundred people come
in with a headache, how many do you think are going to have a tumor versus a
migraine or a tension headache? Or some child dies of AIDS or meningitis, and
the doctor says, "Why couldn't I have saved that child?" We're human, for god
sakes. These doctors didn't perform malpractice. They just were human. It
happens to physicians all the time, and they feel awfully guilty.
Building healing environments
Think of the colors, the aromas, the sounds, the sights that make up the
medical setting. If I were a healthcare executive, I would do everything I
could to humanize the medical setting. In a true healthcare facility, people
would already be being treated by the sounds and sights and aromas that
surround them when come in. This is scientific: studies in the peer-reviewed
literature show that you can affect electroencephalograms and the immune system
and a whole host of other physical measurements of the body's ability to be
healthy by the surroundings that you place people in, by the proper setting,
including nature and plants, including the kinds of windows you use, the
paintings on the wall. Studies have been done showing what reduces anxiety,
what aromas make you feel relaxed, which colors. People would walk into such a
facility and say, "Oh, this is a place of healing." They wouldn't even
necessarily know why they were feeling good.
Real estate agents know all this. They know how to sell a house. They know how
to make it look and smell good. Just think of smelling apple pie when you walk
into a room, like a bakery. You would say, "Wow, it feels good in here." People
are more likely to buy the houses that smell good. When I was a kid they were
still using ether in hospitals, and we knew a lot less about airborne
pollutants and volatile solvents. When you went to a hospital, you walked in
and everybody went, "Yech! It smells awful in here!" You got sick when you went
in the door. Now hospitals smell a little better. But how about making the
environment actually therapeutic?
A friend of ours had AIDS and was in the hospital recently. His room was
basically like a closet. There was no room for visitors. There is no room for
his computer. He was frustrated that he couldn't work while he was there, which
would have helped him to maintain himself as a human being and keep his
dignity. I felt, "How can anybody get better in here?" I wrote to the
administrator suggesting that he spend a weekend in that room. He never wrote
back to me. I find it incredible that they would ever even build a hospital
room like that.
There are many things that would make our healthcare system so much more humane
and useful both to the patients and the people who work in it. Family planning,
and healthcare for mothers and children, need to be a part of the health
system. It is so important that the children be treated properly so they grow
up to be healthy adults, not self-destructive or destructive of others.
We could free up a great deal of healing power simply by relieving physicians
of this incredible burden of paperwork. Doctors spend so much time justifying
who they are seeing, filling out forms. Most physicians did not choose this
career for monetary reasons. But when at some point medicine becomes so
unattractive that you can't even enjoy the people anymore, then you begin to
look at the compensation and say, "Why am I doing this?"
We need to teach the young people more about health. Children of today are the
least healthy group of people in our society. For the health of the children we
need to go into the schools, and that includes your executives, too. Go to
school. Talk to them. It helps their self-esteem if someone important, someone
with a title or a reputation, walks in and says, "I care about you kids." They
say to themselves, "Maybe we're worth something -- look at who came to our
school."
Most important, we need to understand that wellness is cost effective, that we
should be rewarding healthy people, and teaching people how to be healthy. If
the people running the major healthcare chains and HMOs had any brains, they
would say, "If you want to join our plan, this is our fee. And this is what you
have to do." And they would teach me wellness. I wouldn't get sick and they
would make a lot of money.
Ultimately what they will find is that people can't afford sickness. If you
look at the cost of some of the operations today, compared to the cost of
keeping somebody healthy, it would save us a fortune to keep people well. At
some point they are going to wake up and say, "This doesn't work. People can't
afford us. So if they are going to join our health plan, we had better teach
them something about health."
The doctor's frustration
The experience of illness
Doctor as teacher
Beliefs and illness
Can't force it
Pain and learning
The meaning of pain
Educating doctors to be healers
Building a healing health system