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permalink #226 of 349: Cogito, Ergo Spero (robertflink) Sat 14 Apr 07 20:22
permalink #226 of 349: Cogito, Ergo Spero (robertflink) Sat 14 Apr 07 20:22
>I think my fascination with the Sixties has to do in a large part with an interest in separating its sheer escapism from those earnest attempts at human transcendence, especially through the ethereal power of collectivist synergy.< I think I understand the distinction but wonder how one would discover it in practice. If accomplished, I wonder how the discovery would be communicated to others. I also have a concern that the power of collectivist synergy may be hard to reliably direct to positive ends given the evidence of history. Perhaps some new insight will develop to accomplish this.
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permalink #227 of 349: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Sat 14 Apr 07 21:03
permalink #227 of 349: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Sat 14 Apr 07 21:03
>> new insight These things you wonder about and your concerns are justified, I think. And becoming too skeptical to seek new insight or to allow a state of ennui to supplant collectivist hope may be the undercurrent of sin facing our time.
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permalink #228 of 349: Cogito, Ergo Spero (robertflink) Sun 15 Apr 07 05:46
permalink #228 of 349: Cogito, Ergo Spero (robertflink) Sun 15 Apr 07 05:46
>And becoming too skeptical to seek new insight or to allow a state ofennui to supplant collectivist hope may be the undercurrent of sin facing our time.< Absolutely (well, as absolutely as a congenital skeptic can manage). BTW, true believers may also stop seeking since they already have the truth. I grant you that they have little ennui and are often collectivist.
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permalink #229 of 349: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Sun 15 Apr 07 09:52
permalink #229 of 349: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Sun 15 Apr 07 09:52
>> true believers may also stop seeking since they already have the truth. I grant you that they have little ennui and are often collectivist. I guess then we need to expand our list of modern sins to also include hubris and a materialitic collectivism fueled by arrogance. This current administration, by its very unChristian haste to war, exacerbates the ennui in the rest of us. Most truly spiritual people I've ever metfrom whatever religion or centeringare also humble to the grander mysteries of life. [An aunt of oursa former nuncalled Donald Rumsfeld, the antiChrist].
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permalink #230 of 349: Cynthia D-B (peoples) Sun 15 Apr 07 10:05
permalink #230 of 349: Cynthia D-B (peoples) Sun 15 Apr 07 10:05
> In the '60s there was a great deal of talk about treating > hallucinogens as a sacrament, centering oneself when taking them. And there was a great deal of experimentation where there was no talk about the drug being a sacrament, no big deal made over "centering oneself." We took acid, went to the Fillmore and danced all night long. We took acid at the movies. My college drama classmate and I split an orange barrel (early Owsley acid), got up on stage and did a rehearsed scene that got us a standing ovation from our classmates. The LSD opened up new avenues of acting! IOW, it wasn't a religious experience, but nor was it simply thrill-seeking. To me and my cohort, acid was an amazing, wonderful, exciting experience that gave us spectacular visuals, a feeling of joy and calm, a stunning ability to focus, and a realization that there were more layers to life than we'd previously seen. > A great many people have talked about psychedelics opening themselves > to believing in a higher presence. I can see why that kind of talk would be more compelling than talk about how a psychedelic experience brings the user an understanding of how there's no higher power, that it's all up to us. I think that part of my frustration with the assertion that the hippie investment in spirituality played such a big role in the counterculture is that, in the hippie world I lived in, that just wasn't true. I think it's frustrating because ... because ... this is hard to explain. As an atheist, I'm regularly reminded that my viewpoint is not only not understood, it's not even recognized in many ways. At the Alzheimer's home where my [atheist] mom lives, the Sunday morning activity is a church service. On the coins in my pocket are the words "In God we trust." The religious right has made enormous inroads in the political arena in the United States, so much so that there was *debate* as to whether it was a constitutional violation for Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore to place a 2.6 ton stone with the 10 Commandments in the state's Supreme Court rotunda. A debate! I mean, it's sooooooo obviously a violation of "separation of church and state" but culturally we've shifted so far to the right that we are forgetting that freedom FROM religion is also an option. The entities that are in power (at my mom's Alz home, at the US mint, in all 3 branches of the govt) assume that everybody believes in God, some kind of god, anyway. That's why a non-denominational church service at my mom's Alz home qualifies as an activity. That's why "in God we trust" is OK on the coins, apparently. That's why that judge felt it was reasonable to display the 10 commandments in the rotunda. "We don't mean a Christian god, necessarily, it could be the god that YOU pray to." So my "rankled" is a reaction to lots more than what you've been saying, Scott. Forgive me for this rant, perhaps it's the church bells clanging away down the street this morning that woke me from a perfectly happy state of slumber. grump grump
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permalink #231 of 349: Cynthia D-B (peoples) Sun 15 Apr 07 10:09
permalink #231 of 349: Cynthia D-B (peoples) Sun 15 Apr 07 10:09
slippage from Scott himself! > This current administration, by its very unChristian haste to war that too! The duplicity of it all, it's so damn galling. but we're getting awfully far afield from your book, Scott. Let me try to get back to it. We haven't talked a whole lot about The Fan Man by William Kotzwinkle. What struck you most about this book as a "hippie narrative"?
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permalink #232 of 349: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Sun 15 Apr 07 13:45
permalink #232 of 349: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Sun 15 Apr 07 13:45
Actually, the question I brought up here relates to the impact of different drugs and their effect on the prose of different writers, depending on that author's spiritual outlook. This is a valid line of inquiry. This is not the same as a discussion of how different drugs directly affect different users. You are, of course, well within your place to discuss, as an atheist, how drugs such as LSD impacted you. Actually, you and your like-minded friends would serve as a perfect test group for such a psychological study. The bigger issue here is that the US Government, afraid of the Pandora's Box that it had opened, censored most all rational discussion of hallucinogens. Remember when octopus embryos were claimed to be caused by LSD use. Actually, I make a very similar point to yours in my chapter on Ken Kesey's Sometimes a Great Notion where one literary critic elevates drugs used in the pursuit of art as superior to drugs used by lesser mortals. (This is not the question I am asking above). From The Hippie Narrative: For all his keen insight into Keseys literary works, Tanner falls prey to his desire to protect Kesey from being too closely associated with the counterculture that the authors activities helped spawn: [Keseys] drug-taking, unconventional behavior, bizarre clothing, the famous bus trip, the pranks - these were not motivated by the same attitudes that animated countercultural activists or hippie dropouts. Kesey was radicalized to some extent while at Perry Lane, enough to be acutely aware of the sterility of the suburbanized, homogenized, and depersonalized aspects of American society; but his base of criticism was closer to that of Hank than that of Lee. Consequently, he looked toward an old-fashioned frontier tradition of self-reliant individualism for solutions and not, as many of his young protégés, toward a thin-blooded intellectualism, radical politics, or withdrawal into youthcult. His drug explorations were more a search for new sources and forms of artistic expression than they were a political or cultural rebellion; they were more a quest for heightened consciousness than an escape from an unsatisfactory society. (90) Tanner grossly overstates his case here. Extolling heightened consciousness, as an awakening to a new wilderness, became Keseys rebellion. Kesey was as animated and expressive about this as any later hippie. The hippie, in order to be hippie, shared this core motive. Kesey was the prototypical hippie, a seminal figurehead, an intrepid catalyst for the countercultural epoch . [...]Tanner also contends that Keseys search through drugs for new sources of artistic expression contrasts with the purely escapist pursuits of his youthful protégés. This statement is patently elitist. Judgment placed on Keseys drug use is one matter, but to suggest a loftier motive for Kesey presupposes that his activities were superior to the individuals who later experimented with these same drugs in the years that followed. Great Notion was brilliantly elephantine, but the issue of drug use today, where public discourse is overwhelmingly anti-drug, has created an elephant in the room that is usually ignored and rarely discussed candidly. The use of hallucinogens in the late 60s and beyond involved the same sort of experimentation as Kesey engaged in, and for a host of personal and cultural reasonsincluding spiritual, artistic, consciousness-expanding, hedonistic or purely escapist. Considering the frequency of his drug use, Kesey, at different times, probably used psychedelics for all these reasons. To his credit, Tanner did not allow a judgmental attitude toward the counterculture to influence his literary analysis of Keseys work.
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permalink #233 of 349: "The Best for Your Health!" (rik) Sun 15 Apr 07 13:52
permalink #233 of 349: "The Best for Your Health!" (rik) Sun 15 Apr 07 13:52
Can't let it go without commenting on: "I can see why that kind of talk would be more compelling than talk about how a psychedelic experience brings the user an understanding of how there's no higher power, that it's all up to us. I think that part of my frustration with the assertion that the hippie investment in spirituality played such a big role in the counterculture is that, in the hippie world I lived in, that just wasn't true." It was just the opposite for me. I want into my first acid experiences as an atheist college kid looking to party. But a couple a serious out-there experiences opened me up the the realization of just how limited our perception is, and how limited the whole western concept of God is. Two particularly massive doses, about 6 months apart, in 1967, allowed me to experience the "ego death" I'd heard about. And in that, I lost the boundary between me and the rest of existence. It was related to the Siddartha on the bridge episode that Hesse closes the book with, and it also made sense of the end of Casteneda's "Journey to Ixtlan" in that my old world and my home in it are gone forever. In essence, it forever exposed what we call reality for the sad joke that it is.
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permalink #234 of 349: Michael Zentner (mz) Sun 15 Apr 07 14:19
permalink #234 of 349: Michael Zentner (mz) Sun 15 Apr 07 14:19
>>> my old world and my home in it are gone forever. They were an illusion anyway. >>> In essence, it forever exposed what we call reality for the sad joke that it is. That's what I call the "cosmic giggle".
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permalink #235 of 349: Gail Williams (gail) Sun 15 Apr 07 14:56
permalink #235 of 349: Gail Williams (gail) Sun 15 Apr 07 14:56
The punchline is spiritual and profane at the same time.
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permalink #236 of 349: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Sun 15 Apr 07 17:27
permalink #236 of 349: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Sun 15 Apr 07 17:27
>>> We haven't talked a whole lot about The Fan Man by William Kotzwinkle. What struck you most about this book as a "hippie narrative"? Anyone who has seen The Pursuit of Happyness starring Will Smith, will remember the spaced out old hippie who, at one point, steals Smith's bone density measuring device thinking that it is a time machine. [Except that the movie should be entitled The Pursuit of Affluence, and its treatment of this spaced out character demonstrates the kind of simplistic lampooning of hippies that always irks me], this is pretty close to the Horse Badorties character, though Horse is far more three-dimensional. The most striking aspect of the short novel is that it is rendered in first person/ present tense. Every movement and every minute decision made by horse comes through the immediacy of Horse's stoned out eyes. He wakes up from his bed of disgusting junk, then a minute later, he must sit down because he is worn out. He lives in a tenement amid piles of trash--even his roaches have roaches. The character is unconventional,but there is a straightforward plotline that evolves, and the book successfully transports the readers into the madcap euphoria of this fallen-through-the-cracks character. I was not able to find out much about William Kotzwinkle, except that he wrote Dr. Rat, the novelized version of E.T. and a few others. The Fan Man is an outrageous spoof of the utopian and spiritual assumptions of the Beat/hippie scene in Greenwich Village in the late '50s and early '60s. Horse Badorties is a remnant relic of better times, but even he has an odd form of spiritual redemption near the end of the novel.
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permalink #237 of 349: Robyn Touchstone (r-touchstone) Sun 15 Apr 07 17:48
permalink #237 of 349: Robyn Touchstone (r-touchstone) Sun 15 Apr 07 17:48
On Vonnegut's passing... In his later career it became clear that Vonnegut had surpassed even Mark Twain in his misanthropy. This most human of all writers had become so soured on humanity. There was none of the 60s idealism evident in the counter-cultural canon that Scott has so ably & justly celebrated in his book, & which, as Scott stated in an early post, he sought to be an inspiration to the current generation-- the current generation that, unlike the 60s young people, have done so little to protest a war that is, I perceive, no less heinous than Vietnam, perhaps even worse in some ways. There is an extreme exigency for writers, other artists, & thinkers who can re-kindle idealism in this country & spark the imagination, spirit, & activism of today's youth.
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permalink #238 of 349: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Sun 15 Apr 07 18:18
permalink #238 of 349: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Sun 15 Apr 07 18:18
>>> There is an extreme exigency for writers, other artists, & thinkers who can re-kindle idealism in this country & spark the imagination, spirit, & activism of today's youth. Nicely put, Robyn. This is related to what Robert and I were discussing this morning on the sin of ennui/ collectivist hopefulness/ and needing new insights to sincerely accomplish such change.
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permalink #239 of 349: Cogito? (robertflink) Sun 15 Apr 07 19:00
permalink #239 of 349: Cogito? (robertflink) Sun 15 Apr 07 19:00
>There is an extreme exigency for writers, other artists, & thinkers who can re-kindle idealism in this country & spark the imagination, spirit, & activism of today's youth.< I think a little fuel is also needed, perhaps a draft? More seriously, each era tends to have a unique blend of issues and forces that come together in unique timing. Attributing a social movement too firmly to several factors is not much better than the Great Man theory of history and both are products of 20/20 hindsight. Regardless of the limitations of politicians, they are disposed to take what is there and make something of it. What they make is not often pretty. I keep reminding myself that Hitler was an idealist.
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permalink #240 of 349: Gail Williams (gail) Sun 15 Apr 07 21:08
permalink #240 of 349: Gail Williams (gail) Sun 15 Apr 07 21:08
I have another weird question following from the subject of this book. What about the children of the hippies and wannabe hippies? What artists came from a hippie parent background? In sports I can think of Pikaboo Street and Khalil Green (I think I just misspelled both of them). Do we have writers who are Gen II Hip?
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permalink #241 of 349: Sharon Lynne Fisher (slf) Sun 15 Apr 07 22:02
permalink #241 of 349: Sharon Lynne Fisher (slf) Sun 15 Apr 07 22:02
(Picabo)
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permalink #242 of 349: Gail Williams (gail) Sun 15 Apr 07 22:58
permalink #242 of 349: Gail Williams (gail) Sun 15 Apr 07 22:58
(thanks! and greene, not green)
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permalink #243 of 349: Gary Lambert (almanac) Sun 15 Apr 07 23:51
permalink #243 of 349: Gary Lambert (almanac) Sun 15 Apr 07 23:51
Hannah Teter, the gold=medal-winning snowboarder from the last Winter Olympics grew up with hippie parents in Vermont. Among musical types, Courtney Love is a pretty famous example, although whether her father, Hank Harrison, was a hippie or just a hustler scamming the scene is subject to debate.
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permalink #244 of 349: Berliner (captward) Mon 16 Apr 07 02:22
permalink #244 of 349: Berliner (captward) Mon 16 Apr 07 02:22
Cynthia's rant reminds me of a party I went to in 1966 thrown by some of the scientists at the New Jersey Neuropsychiatric Institute, where sanctioned psychedelic experimentation for therapeutic treatment of alcoholics was going on. It was almost a who's who: Dr. Humphry Osmond (the man who coined the word "psychedelic"), Emmett Grogan, Allen Ginsberg, and Ralph Metzner, the third of the Leary-Alpert-Metzner group. He seemed totally pissed off, and at one point I remember him going off: "Kids today don't understand LSD! They're taking it for *fun*! That's not what it's for!" I remember staring at him, with a million questions crowding my brain, starting with either "who are you to say what it's for" or "well, what do you think it's for?" Instead my girlfriend and I went outside into the cornfield and smoked some pot, where we were shortly joined by an exasperated Ginsberg, who'd tried to engage Metzner. >>I was not able to find out much about William Kotzwinkle, except that he wrote Dr. Rat, the novelized version of E.T. and a few others. Kotzwinkle, as I understand it, disappeared into Hollywood screenwriter hell, and I see on IMDB that he's credited with writing Nightmare on Elm Street 4, and doubtless other stuff I couldn't search for.
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permalink #245 of 349: Cynthia D-B (peoples) Mon 16 Apr 07 07:31
permalink #245 of 349: Cynthia D-B (peoples) Mon 16 Apr 07 07:31
We've talked at least briefly about most of the books you examine in "The Hippie Narrative" (some more than others, of course). I noticed that in one of the last chapters, you look at three essays about the hippies and weave these into an essay of your own. Can you describe why you shifted from looking at full books to these essays, Scott?
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permalink #246 of 349: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Mon 16 Apr 07 07:56
permalink #246 of 349: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Mon 16 Apr 07 07:56
>> from Gail: Do we have writers who are Gen II Hip? Bode Miller, the the US Olympic skier, grew up with hippie parents in a New Hampshire cabin w/o indoor plumbing. He also wrote a book (with help) called Bode: Go Fast, Be Good, Have Fun. Wild Child: Girlhoods in the Counterculture, by Chelsea Cain is a sympathetic look at growing up in a hippie commune. As for literary writers whose parents were hippies, with all the MFA in Creative Writing programs sprouting up and, now that the children of hippies are reaching their twenties and thirties, it's probably only a matter of time. Tom Wolfe made a point of how surprised he was that the counterculture didn't spawn more serious novels about itself in the late '60s. The Hippie Narrative, I hope, disproves the idea that there was no quality fiction about the era written then. Wolfe claimed that the publishers were on the look-out for such literature, but very little surfaced. What they received, according to Wolfe were too many manuscripts on "The Prince of Alienation." There is certainly a compelling argument that the reason there were so few contemporaneous works about the counterculture had to do with how difficult it was to discuss this phenomenon in its many permutations, especially as it was erupting. There's a part of me that wonders if there isn't an aversion on the part of the large publishers (and literary agents) to steer clear of fiction about the hippie era. This could apply to the children of hippies writing memoir, and for hippies too.
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permalink #247 of 349: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Mon 16 Apr 07 08:12
permalink #247 of 349: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Mon 16 Apr 07 08:12
>> from Captward: Kotzwinkle, as I understand it, disappeared into Hollywood screenwriter hell, and I see on IMDB that he's credited with writing Nightmare on Elm Street 4, and doubtless other stuff I couldn't search for. The last I could tell when I researched this was that Kotzwinkle had gone somewhat underground in Maine with his wife. With his track record writing the E.T. novel, the screenwriter's hell angle makes sense, too. All I can say is ain't it a shameKotzwinkle is such fine writer to waste his talent in Nightmare land.
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permalink #248 of 349: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Mon 16 Apr 07 08:55
permalink #248 of 349: Scott MacFarlane (s-macfarlane) Mon 16 Apr 07 08:55
>>> you look at three essays about the hippies and weave these into an essay of your own. Can you describe why you shifted from looking at full books to these essays, Scott? When I was in the process of writing The Hippie Narrative, I was looking forward to picking up Joan Didion's book, Slouching Toward Bethlehem. Considering her reputation as a sensitive and astute observer of American culture and as one of the New Journalists of the '60s, I was expecting it to provide a sympathetic (or at least partially sympathetic) portrayal of the Haight-Ashbury scene. Frankly, I was also bothered that I hadn't found any hippie narratives written by women, so was looking forward to including this. What I found on that ferry coming back from San Juan Island (which is the story frame of my own essay that discusses these other essays), was that "Slouching Toward Bethlehem" was not a full book, but rather an article/essay that Didion had first published in September 1967 in the Saturday Evening Post. The essay helped launch her career as an authorand she is a fine writerbut as I studied her essay, I had several problems with her oversimplification of the story. She made many astute observations, but she was largely pandering to a pejorative assessment of the hippie scene by focusing on the extremes of the crumbling street world of the Haight. She used this to denigrate and lament the whole phenomenon. I had also read Denis Johnson's essay "The Hippies" from his collection "Seek: Reports from the Edges of America and Beyond" (2001). I loved his rendition of going to the 1996 Rainbow Gathering in eastern Oregon. In addition, when I was nearing completion of my manuscript, I wrote to Tom Robbins on the outside chance that he would be willing to write a foreword for The Hippie Narrative. He politely declined, but in addition to writing me that it was about time someone wrote a serious analysis of counterculture literature, he also asked me if I had read his essay called "The Sixties" from his collection "Wild Ducks Flying Backwards." Along with my own memories of the Rainbow Gathering, and of hitchiking and of being a hippie, this started coalescing in my head when I met the young dreadheaded hitchhiker on the ferry. Robbins' insightful overview, Johnson's latterday hippie experience while loaded on 'shrooms, and Didion's attempt to make sense of the chaos of Haight-Ashbury at that explosive moment in time, allowed me to try to show that the hippie scene, though it withered, never fully died. Also, the personal essay is a form of narrative, and these three pieces were outstanding representatives of the form as hippie narrative. "An Essay on Slouching, Hippies, and Hitchhiking" was the most experimental of my chapters, featuring this weave of essays, meta-narrative, and a touch of memoir to give a cultural overview to the hippie phenomenon.
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permalink #249 of 349: Michael Zentner (mz) Mon 16 Apr 07 09:14
permalink #249 of 349: Michael Zentner (mz) Mon 16 Apr 07 09:14
>>> Joan Didion's book, Slouching Toward Bethlehem. Speaking of whom, there's a great picture of her "with hippies in Golden Gate Park in 1967" in the latest Cal alumni magazine.
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permalink #250 of 349: Michael Zentner (mz) Mon 16 Apr 07 09:15
permalink #250 of 349: Michael Zentner (mz) Mon 16 Apr 07 09:15
And, thanks to Google, here it is: <http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.achievement.org/achievers/di d0/large/did0-009.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/photocredit /achievers/did0-009&h=585&w=396&sz=196&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=RiTKKsSnuYXyLM:&tbn h=135&tbnw=91&prev=/images%3Fq%3Djoan%2Bdidion%2B1967%26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D10%2 6hl%3Den%26sa%3DG>
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