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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #51 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Mon 5 Oct 15 07:47
permalink #51 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Mon 5 Oct 15 07:47
Mostly not. "The Fog Dissipator" was a crew prank on one of the other officers, and it was allowed to remain a ship wide joke because the skipper already knew that the victim was on his way out. "Qualification in Submarines", which you get to by clicking on the gold dolphins, clearly included a gentle hazing of the table-top variety. "Collision Drill" was an elaborate prank on at least 95% of the crew, including me. The skipper authorized it, the Exec tightly managed it, and it was beautifully done. "Torpedoed" was an incident in which the forty or so sailors who called me on the sound-powered phones exhibited a sequential progression across a spectrum of emotions. The first call was from a First Class Engineman who was the throttleman-of-the-watch in the Forward Engine Room, the compartment that had been hit by the exercise torpedo. Since the incident had changed from a drill to an actual accident, he called to report that (1) he and his oiler were both uninjured, (2) interior damage was non-existent, and (3) all the interior equipment appeared to be operational. He had the presence of mind and the wit to start his report with, "Mr. Charlton, I heard the torpedo." His tone of voice was tense and concerned. The circuit used to do this kind of thing was a party line, and ten other sailors heard the first report. After he finished his report, and as I finished questioning him about it, we both relaxed. That's when a joker on the line joined in and said, a bit nervously, "Mr. Charlton, I also heard the torpedo." After that they were passing the phones around so they could all get in on the gag. I could have stopped them but I thought it was best to let them joke about being alive. The tone of voice progressed from concerned to outright relief.
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #52 of 85: Alan Turner (arturner) Mon 5 Oct 15 12:38
permalink #52 of 85: Alan Turner (arturner) Mon 5 Oct 15 12:38
You should add that story to "Torpedoes!" You mention a few of the amenities that the Navy provided for morale, even given the tight conditions on a submarine: movies, books, fresh baked bread and a more generous food budget in general, shore leave for Mardi Gras... Which of those was most appreciated - or most missed when unavailable? In my previous job I learned what the Navy determined that was on surface ships today: ice cream. But I doubt that was a luxury that a diesel-powered submarine could have. Was there anything that was even remotely possible within the constraints of a submarine that you wished for but the Navy wouldn't provide?
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #53 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Mon 5 Oct 15 14:52
permalink #53 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Mon 5 Oct 15 14:52
That's easy. Communication. Letters from home. Messages TO family. We were notified of births and deaths by way of official messages to the skipper. These were not messages to the sailor. The standard message was formal: TO: CO USS ODAX (SS-484) SUBJ: LTJG FRANK CHARLTON PLEASE NOTIFY SNM THAT HIS WIFE DELIVERED A CHILD AT 251412Z AUG IN NAVHOSP KWEST. MOTHER AND DAUGHTER DOING FINE. I'll add a chapter about that tonight. Gotta run. (SNM = Subject Named Man.)
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #54 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Mon 5 Oct 15 17:18
permalink #54 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Mon 5 Oct 15 17:18
I'm back now. I just added a new essay titled "Family News", in green.
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #55 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Mon 5 Oct 15 21:49
permalink #55 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Mon 5 Oct 15 21:49
There is another answer to your question. It applied Navy-wide, not just in submarines, and not just during sea duty. The nitpicking military day-to-day rules just no longer applied. These rules were personally offensive to anyone in the Navy at that time. When those rules were relaxed din 1970, it made a huge difference in morale. Z-Gram 57 was titled "DEMEANING OR ABRASIVE REGULATIONS, ELIMINATION OF". The full text is worth reading. <http://www.history.navy.mil/research/library/online-reading-room/title-list-al phabetically/z/z-grams-list-policy-directives-issued-admiral-zumwalt/z-gram-57 .html> If the language is too dense, I'll mention some highlights for you. You could wear neat, clean dungarees to and from work, to the exchanges, to the pay window, and other offices. You no longer had to change clothes to go there. Ditto, you could go to chow in dungarees. You no longer had to be wearing the uniform of the day. You didn't have to ask to go home at the end of the day. They had to tell you to stay late. If you asked for something in writing, and your immediate superiors disapproved it, they had to pass it up the chain anyway. They could no longer kill it on the spot. This was all huge, just huge. It was an essential first step in increasing retention rates. Before Zumwalt, the first-time re-enlistment rate was 10%. He got it up to 23%.
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #56 of 85: Chris Hanson (chanson) Mon 5 Oct 15 23:20
permalink #56 of 85: Chris Hanson (chanson) Mon 5 Oct 15 23:20
I read that Z-gram, and then at random clicked on these three: <http://www.history.navy.mil/research/library/online-reading-room/title- list-alphabetically/z/z-grams-list-policy-directives-issued-admiral- zumwalt/z-gram-24.html> <http://www.history.navy.mil/research/library/online-reading-room/title- list-alphabetically/z/z-grams-list-policy-directives-issued-admiral- zumwalt/z-gram-103.html> <http://www.history.navy.mil/research/library/online-reading-room/title- list-alphabetically/z/z-grams-list-policy-directives-issued-admiral- zumwalt/z-gram-116.html> I found the combination of these interesting in an evolution-of-the-times way.
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #57 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Tue 6 Oct 15 08:05
permalink #57 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Tue 6 Oct 15 08:05
An administrative note: This is a living document. After I opened it up on August 23rd and announced it to shipmates, I added "Act as Camel" edited "The Train Across the Kattegat" added the photo of the propeller blades fixed a format problem with "Seas and Swells" and "Late Night" edited the sleeve with a star and two stripes added the copy of the letter in "Frocked!" In the few days since this interview started, I found and added "Whistle a Mournful Tune" found and added "A Symphony Above" found and added "DDMF" in response to a question edited "Submerge the Ship" as recommended here added "Family News" in response to a question Please keep those questions, comments, complaints, and suggestions coming in. Just click on any of the four words at the bottom of the home screen.
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #58 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Tue 6 Oct 15 22:19
permalink #58 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Tue 6 Oct 15 22:19
Alan, one of your first questions, in response #5, mentioned that I started sharing my sea stories soon after I joined the Well. I'd like to follow up on that with some observations about how time and technology have changed my storytelling. The oldest of my stories that remains on the Well dates from March 17, 1989, more than a year before the World Wide Web was invented. There had been other stories earlier, but they are now lost, along with a number of other, more important pieces of early Well content. I did not have the new web search tools that we all use every day. So my early stories all came from the memory between my ears. Probably half of my stories were originally written like that. More recently, on-line search engines were available. I was able to make the stories more accurate in researchable details, which probably diverted me from recapturing the more romantic character of it all. Lets think about the timeline. I was separated from active duty (that's the official ay to say it) in 1973. Fifteen years later, in 1988, I joined the Well and began my storytelling. Now it is 2015, 42 years after getting out and 27 years after I joined the Well. So here is a brief, properly informed recent story: When I was first at sea for training, it was in 1966 aboard an aircraft carrier, USS Hornet (CVS-12). The petty officers then frequently told us that Navy coffee, while okay, was not as good as the coffee in the old Navy. Back then, the U.S. Navy had owned it's own coffee plantation in Brazil. More than 40 years later, I began volunteering as a docent at the USS Hornet Museum. I was reminded of the coffee plantation in Brazil. I immediately thought to tell the story, but to look it up first. That[s just the way things are done today. I can find no trace of that plantation. I think it never existed. Bit I DID find that the Navy owned two coffee roasteries, one in Oakland and one in Brooklyn. (The army also owned two roasteries of its own.) So the services probably did have better coffee in the 1950s than they did in the 1960s, after the roasteries were sold. Somehow, a roastery is not as romantic as a plantation.
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #59 of 85: Alan Turner (arturner) Wed 7 Oct 15 15:37
permalink #59 of 85: Alan Turner (arturner) Wed 7 Oct 15 15:37
I'm sure! And I can see the story of the Navy having its own coffee roaster morphing into its own coffee plantation in the retelling over the years. Did any of your other stories lose some romance in the research?
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #60 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Wed 7 Oct 15 17:05
permalink #60 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Wed 7 Oct 15 17:05
Not that I can think of. I just spent twenty minutes reviewing the titles and drilling down into a few stories, and the only example I can think of is "Ship-handling Competition". And that one becomes more romantic upon review. Many years ago when I first wrote that story, it always seemed too whiny. Finally I tried swapping Dave for me in the write-up. Suddenly it didn't seem whiny at all. So I've left the story with the roles reversed. Dave was a good friend and a positive influence. So instead of mewling about things, I'm leaving the story as a salute to Dave. One thing I really want to de-romanticize, however, is the role of tobacco, and the role of the Navy in tempting us and teasing us with tax-free, and sometimes completely free-for-nothing, tobacco. I also want to de-romanticize the effects of tobacco smoke in a submarine. We typically smoked for ten hours after we shut the air valve, and it got very stale aboard. Very. Try not to think about it. We measured the CO2 levels aboard, of course. Anything over 0.10% started a little throbbing sensation just above the base of my skull in back. At 0.12% it turned into a headache. End of rant.
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #61 of 85: Alan Turner (arturner) Thu 8 Oct 15 04:29
permalink #61 of 85: Alan Turner (arturner) Thu 8 Oct 15 04:29
I read that imagining it written in the first person, and it did come off whiny. Funny how changing the p.o.v. of exactly the same story can change how engaging it is. Somewhat related to the rule reforms that Zumwalt instituted, tell us a little about the protocols in the Navy that are old traditions. I'm thinking of things like the printed calling cards in "A Gentleman In Blue" and the flag salutes in "Mardi Gras or Bust". To a civilian, they seem quaint and outdated.
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #62 of 85: Chuck Charlton (chuck) Thu 8 Oct 15 05:15
permalink #62 of 85: Chuck Charlton (chuck) Thu 8 Oct 15 05:15
<scribbled by chuck Thu 8 Oct 15 05:37>
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #63 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Thu 8 Oct 15 05:37
permalink #63 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Thu 8 Oct 15 05:37
<img src="http://numbnutiae.com/zrxubzm7yp/semaphore.gif?rand=0.014833698514848948" /> I have no idea if those things are still practiced. The signal flags are probably not used at all any more. The Signalman rating was abolished twenty years ago or so. It's possible that flashing light might still be used, but I doubt it. A couple of years after I got out, the U.S. Navy adopted point-to-point handheld FM plain-voice radios for ship-to-ship, bridge-to-bridge usage, just like civilians and foreigners use. I can't imagine that that the printed cards would still be in use. They may still pay formal calls, but surely they respectfully text each other these days. But probably not with emoji. <img src="http://numbnutiae.com/zrxubzm7yp/aldis.gif?rand=0.014833698514848948" height="32px"/>
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #64 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Thu 8 Oct 15 20:44
permalink #64 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Thu 8 Oct 15 20:44
Here is another anachronistic tidbit, in addition to signal flags, calling cards, and flashing Aldis lamps. As we were discussing the formalities in one of the "Gentlemen Caller" stories, I let slip that I owned and wore a ceremonial sword and sword knot. The idea of having a sword on a submarine just invited silliness. One participant asked: What did you do with your ceremonial sword between [social events]? Did you brandish it, playfully or actually. Did you sharpen it and/or polish it? Did you put it up near your nose, perpendicular to the ground, the way Marines do? Well, the full answer is even more ridiculous than the question. The ceremonial sword stayed in its locker, along with the formal belt and sword knot. It was considered a weapon, so we never played with them, just as we never played with our .45 caliber automatic pistols. We did, indeed, perform the manual of arms with the sword, including Present Arms, which is holding the sword almost vertical, tilting slightly away, with your fingertips almost touching your nose; Right Shoulder Arms, which means resting the bare blade on the shoulder, with the arm straight down and the hilt in the hand; Order Arms, in which the sword is returned to its scabbard; and Parade Rest, in which the point of the sword is on the ground and the elbow is straight; among other such gestures. But the silliest part of all is that I have a college credit in fencing. I took the class in combative fencing to learn how to do all those maneuvers safely and gracefully.
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #65 of 85: Alan Turner (arturner) Fri 9 Oct 15 07:20
permalink #65 of 85: Alan Turner (arturner) Fri 9 Oct 15 07:20
Were you unique in taking a fencing class? You also mention a ceremonial sword ceremonial sword being used in a Captain's Mast, a trial just short of court-martial (The Sword, The Bible, and The Long Green Felt). I wondered what became of the drunken sailor (and his wife) after that incident.
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #66 of 85: Jef Poskanzer (jef) Fri 9 Oct 15 09:15
permalink #66 of 85: Jef Poskanzer (jef) Fri 9 Oct 15 09:15
I guess I assumed the sword was for opening champagne bottles.
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #67 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Fri 9 Oct 15 10:53
permalink #67 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Fri 9 Oct 15 10:53
jef - ha! If only I had known! I didn't learn that until 30 years later. Alan - more later.
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #68 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Fri 9 Oct 15 12:46
permalink #68 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Fri 9 Oct 15 12:46
Alan - The sword is called a ceremonial sword for a reason, and a Captain's mast includes plenty of ceremony. The whole rig (sword, scabbard, belt, and knot) cost about $450 at, retail probably isn't the word to use, but at the full price tag amount at the Navy Exchange. Lots of us bought used swords from officers getting out of the Navy. That's what I did, and I sold it when I got out. That all works fine. But if you buy a new sword you have to be careful NOT to get your name engraved on it. That would reduce its resale value. So that's another good reason to be sober when buying weaponry. As to the case involved, the career sailor was fined and given a suspended bust of one rank, and then transferred to Naval District headquarters for re-assignment. I thought he should have been fully busted one rank, but it didn't happen. When his drunk wife came down to the submarine with a .22 pistol in her purse and the intent to shoot me for investigating her husband and for recommending punishment, it was on a workday with a full crew aboard. Several off our sailors stopped her on the pier and got her hustled away to points unknown. She should have been investigated and possibly prosecuted for a variety of violations, mostly firearms related. But hey, this took place in Florida.
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #69 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Fri 9 Oct 15 17:56
permalink #69 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Fri 9 Oct 15 17:56
And Alan: Yes, I was probably unique, at least aboard Odax, in having taken a fencing class. As one one of my six mandatory college PE classes, I had to take a "combative" class. The choices were wrestling, boxing, and fencing. No one else on our boat would have chosen fencing to satisfy the combative requirement.
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #70 of 85: Alan Turner (arturner) Sat 10 Oct 15 05:33
permalink #70 of 85: Alan Turner (arturner) Sat 10 Oct 15 05:33
Darn. I was hoping for some sort Hollywood ending for the couple with of a tale of redemption suitable for Jimmy Stewart. The other crime story, of Bob & Carol & Ted & Alice, in "The Young and the Mindless" was also quite impressive. Was that your introduction to the culture of the waterfront, or just one of the more striking examples?
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #71 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Sat 10 Oct 15 06:34
permalink #71 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Sat 10 Oct 15 06:34
That was my intro. It was my second day on the boat that Carol came aboard without the duty officer's permission and spotted me in the control room. She saw that I was an officer and, uh, well, you just have to read it. All four names have been changed, of course. That movie title just came in handy as a source of aliases that I could remember as I wrote. There were some other truly disgusting stories about those four. And there were stories about others that were even more disgusting and even less interesting. The sailors learned quickly not to show me their polaroid photos. I did not want to see that stuff. "Alice" was really very pretty. I planned on describing the massive amount of paperwork that followed our visit to Fort Lauderdale, but it would have turned into a police procedural without an ending.
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #72 of 85: Alan Turner (arturner) Sun 11 Oct 15 11:19
permalink #72 of 85: Alan Turner (arturner) Sun 11 Oct 15 11:19
You entered the Navy in 1969, fifteen years into the Nuclear Navy era, and you tell a couple of stories where diesel submarines and their crews were looked down upon as old technology. Were these dismissive incidents occasional, or endemic?
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #73 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Sun 11 Oct 15 13:10
permalink #73 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Sun 11 Oct 15 13:10
Excellent question! And an excellent excuse for a timetable. 1949 Aug 29 - Soviets explode their first atomic bomb. 1953 Aug 12 - Soviets explode their first hydrogen bomb. 1956 Nov 18 - Khrushchev publicly threatens to "bury" U.S. 1957 Oct 4 - Soviets launch Sputnik, world's first satellite. 1960 May 10 - USS Triton completes submerged circumnavigation. 1960 Nov 15 - USS George Washington embarks on deterrent patrol. 1961 Apr 12 - Yuri Gagarin orbits the earth, first person in space. That's the background for throwing a huge portion of the federal budget at the rapid and continued development of the Polaris missiles and submarines to launch them. Meanwhile, diesel boats were still doing some heavy-duty stuff, such as going into certain foreign harbors and conducting surveillance. Ed Holmes, sometimes known as Bishop Joey of the First Church of the Last Laugh, was a crewman on a diesel boat that did secret surveillance in the harbors and rivers of mainland China. He talked about it in one of his performances. But it was quite meaningful in the mid-1960s when an admiral could, and did, say, with great relief, Thats the last fossil-fueler well have to send in there. Now to answer your question: In CONUS ports, which had lots of space and resources, diesel boats were still tolerated in the early 1970s. In forward support facilities, where the resources were limited, diesel boats were a genuine burden. The attitudes of the various crews differed based on location. The forward locations that I had experience with were three submarine tenders, large specialized support ships. One was anchored in Holy Loch. The other two were moored at Rota and at Santo Stefano.
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #74 of 85: Alan Turner (arturner) Sun 11 Oct 15 14:53
permalink #74 of 85: Alan Turner (arturner) Sun 11 Oct 15 14:53
Sounds a bit like the comedy movie "Down Periscope". Which makes me ask: was that movie, or any other submarine movie (comedy or serious drama) remotely true to life? How has Hollywood and the media in general done at portraying submarines and submariners?
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #75 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Sun 11 Oct 15 19:24
permalink #75 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Sun 11 Oct 15 19:24
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