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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #76 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Sun 11 Oct 15 21:35
permalink #76 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Sun 11 Oct 15 21:35
The interwebs tell me that there have been about 150 submarine movies. I've seen eight of them. When I was a kid I saw Run Silent, Run Deep and Operation Petticoat. I was just a kid. I don't know how accurate they were. Once I had gone to sea in submarines, I saw a few good portrayals of submarine life. Das Boot mesmerized me. I first saw it with a co-worker who had been in the German army in 1945, when he was sixteen. The movie was in German with English subtitles. He could barely move out of his seat when the show ended, due to the accuracy of the portrayal of the WWII German military experience. I was impressed with the technical accuracy of how the mechanical stuff worked, and how the sailors related to the equipment. I saw The Hunt for Red October with a companion my age who had served on USS Swordfish. We were both impressed with the accuracy overall, and thought it was good movie-making, as well. The rest I would rate, best to worst, for accuracy of portrayal of submarines an submariners: The Russians are coming! The Russians are coming! Ice Station Zebra On the Beach The Bedford Incident Jim Brown gave a good performance in Ice Station Zebra but there is no way at all that he could have shut the breech door of that torpedo tube at depth, using just muscle power. I need to stop for dinner. More later.
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #77 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Sun 11 Oct 15 21:51
permalink #77 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Sun 11 Oct 15 21:51
And now it's later. I apologize for the poor formatting. I have hidden the bad one, cleaned it up and re-posted. Comedies about submarines are okay. Laughing at what is inherently slapstick in the first place is fine with me. Dramas about submarines suffer from the general inaccuracies in understanding the physical and organizational limitations of the placement of the people. And by "organizational" I mean the administrative organization, the operational organization, and the organization of simply standing the watch. Das Boot makes it look like only one mechanic ever does any work. Red October makes it look like the commanding officer stands watches as Officer of the Deck, and that there is only one sonar man aboard who works 24/7/52. But point is to be comedic or dramatic, so I'm okay with whatever makes the artistry better.
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #78 of 85: Don Mussell (dmsml) Sun 11 Oct 15 21:55
permalink #78 of 85: Don Mussell (dmsml) Sun 11 Oct 15 21:55
At some point in the mid-1980's, I saw the 300 minute version of Das Boot on a satellite movie channel. I was unable to turn away, as it was mesmerizing.
inkwell.vue.484
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #79 of 85: Alan Turner (arturner) Mon 12 Oct 15 06:06
permalink #79 of 85: Alan Turner (arturner) Mon 12 Oct 15 06:06
You're a more lenient about movies than I am. When something happens in a movie that I know to be incorrect, it ruins the movie for me. If a submarine is under the North Pole and the ice cap starts breaking up and icebergs start crashing down on the ship, (a particularly egregious example from some movie whose title I have thankfully forgotten) it's too much of a howler for me to enjoy the rest of it. Hard to believe it's already our last day. I saved the last chapters in your series: "Nixons Used Submarine Lot" "Sea Stores Whiskey" and "Veterinary Check-Up" (about the sale of the Odax to Brazil), and "Separation" (about about your last six months in the Navy) for today. But before that, I want to invite you to comment on anything you wish, without any leading question.
inkwell.vue.484
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #80 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Mon 12 Oct 15 07:23
permalink #80 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Mon 12 Oct 15 07:23
There were a few other topics that I expected to be questioned about. I'll mention a couple. I have not prepared anything in writing, and I'll be brief. 1. War, diplomacy, and duty. The U.S. had a huge military organization in the 1950s and 1960s. The draft was in effect. Until 1968 or so, most of us did not question the need for a large military and the need for mandatory service. By then I was committed to the military contract, and I was draftable if I somehow managed to get the agreement cancelled. In another ciic environment, I don't know if I would have chosen the military option. If indeed the military was just an option. 2. Obliviousness. During the late 1980s, at a low point in my life and at a low point in the history of television content, I randomly tuned in a late night interview show on cable, and I saw an official with the GHWB administration say that the knowledgeable people in the Pentagon were well aware that gay men and lesbians self-selected for the military, because of the same-sex environment. A couple of years later, when I was recovering from a couple of major life blows, I was attending a cooking class in San Francisco. After a few months of classes, I discovered that one of the other students in the class had served on a diesel submarine based in Key West. We bailed on the cooking class at that point, took our Margaritas, went to an empty room nearby, and just talked. He told me that even within the Navy, gay sailors self-selected for diesel-powered submarines, because of the casual environment aboard. He described how he finagled his enlistment with a gay recruiting officer in New York. After boot camp he finagled an assignment to submarine school, then an assignment to a diesel-powered submarine in Key West, the first choice of home port among gay submariners. He reported aboard his boat and got his rack assignment. That first night he changed into civvies, went ashore, and tracked down a legendary bar he wanted to try. When he got there, he ran into the chief who had made his rack assignment. The next day his rack assignment was changed. He also told me more than I needed to know about the administrative tricks in use, and the layout of rack locations aboard. I had been stunningly oblivious. Later I mentioned this story to another Navy veteran here in San Francisco, and he said that a diesel submarine in Key West in the 1960s must have been the gayest place on earth.
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #81 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Tue 13 Oct 15 16:34
permalink #81 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Tue 13 Oct 15 16:34
Alan, I don't know what your questions are, but I'll make some comments about the essays that you mentioned. ======== re "Nixons Used Submarine Lot" There was a lot of negotiation going on, at high levels, in the mercantile, diplomatic, and political arenas. Turkey changed its offers numerous times. In the course of a week Brazil was going to buy Odax, then Odax was going to be scrapped, then Turkey was going to buy Odax, then Odax was going to be scrapped, then Brazil wound up buying Odax after all. This was a frenzy to sell off diesel boats. There were 19 Tench-class submarines in commission in 1969 when I started to submarine school, and only one by the time I got out of the Navy four years later. Year, Number sold, and Number remaining: 1962 1963 1964 1965 1966 1967 1968 1969 1970 1971 1972 1973 1974 1975 0 3 2 0 0 0 2 3 3 3 6 6 0 1 29 26 24 24 24 24 22 19 16 13 7 1 1 0 Brazil bought four of them in 1972 and 1973. ======== "Sea Stores Whiskey" is pretty much a self-contained story. It seemed like every employee at the Navy supply office in Key West was determined to be the first to find a loophole that would allow a U.S. Navy truck to deliver booze to a ship. In the end, no one could work it out. ======== "Veterinary Check-Up" is also self-contained. During the times that we thought Odax was going to Turkey or to the scrap yard, we had to figure out how to get approval to return our food to the supply center. The only way to do this was to have the food surveyed by the U. S. Army Veterinary Corps. You just have to read the story to connect the dots. ======== "Separation" deserves its own posting, which I'll put up later tonight.
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #82 of 85: Julie Sherman (julieswn) Tue 13 Oct 15 18:00
permalink #82 of 85: Julie Sherman (julieswn) Tue 13 Oct 15 18:00
This has been a wonderful conversation and I want to thank <chuck> and <arturner> for their time and sharing their knowledge with us. This marks the official end of this conversation, but this topic will remain open for anyone who wants to continue the discussion. Thanks again.
inkwell.vue.484
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #83 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Tue 13 Oct 15 23:14
permalink #83 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Tue 13 Oct 15 23:14
Separation Is not about the Odax. It covers the time after USS Odax was sold to Brazil, and after I spent three more months aboard the same boat in charge of a team of eighteen crew members who were teaching thee Brazilians how to operate the submarine. For the last eight months of my four-year obligation I was assigned to the research bathyscaph Trieste II (DSV-1) based in San Diego. There were some minor tidbits to report, and there a few not so minor. 1. (Minor) The President's Commission on Oceans and Atmosphere came to see Trieste on a fact-finding tour. At the end of the day, one member of the commission, a former Commander in the U.S. Navy during WWII, wanted to go a half-block away to the Officers Club. A few of us went, and we sat at the bar and had a drink with Arthur Godfrey. 2. (Minor) Whenever Trieste went deep, which was whenever it submerged, the crew tied a cage to the deck of the 'scaph with whatever wire was handy. The cage contained styrofoam cups. The first time it happened when I was aboard, they just handed me a styrofoam cup and said, "Write something on it." So, not knowing what was going on, I wrote a sestet from Samuel Taylor Coleridge. It turns out that an eight-ounce styrofoam cup, once subjected to sea pressure at a depth of 6,000 feet or so, shrunk. After that it could hold perhaps an ounce, perhaps half that much. It was not quite exactly the same shape as before, but similar. And smaller. It was a nice souvenir. 3. (Scary) One time the floating drydock that was our mother ship was itself taken away for repairs, and we were suddenly asked to go photograph a fresh artifact on the ocean bottom. Since we lacked all the support systems from the mother ship, we had to make it up as we were going along. Everything worked out okay. But then we got back to port, and it was time to pump 80,000 gallons of aviation gasoline out of the 'scaph and back into the fuel farm. But we needed a blanket of nitrogen to inert the 'scaph as we pumped out the avgas, and our nitrogen was aboard the absent floating drydock. So we called a commercial industrial gas firm to provide us with the nitrogen. When the truck arrived, I was the only officer present, so I was busy making all the arrangements, when I noticed that the truck was labeled, in giant letters, LIQUID OXYGEN. This did not seem like a good idea to me. So I challenged the delivery driver. He pulled out the packing slip and pointed out that the truck had been filled with liquid nitrogen, despite what it said in giant letters on the side. I was skeptical. So he walked over to our coffee mess, picked up a styrofoam cup (see, it was all about styrofoam cups), opened a spigot on the side of the truck, and drew off a cupful of liquid something. He struck a match and held the lighted match over the cup. The match was quickly extinguished. That was pretty impressive, so I let him use the "nitrogen" to inert the scaph. The rest of the operation was uneventful. A few years later I was working at a lab where they had liquid gases in quantity. I told them my story. They looked at me funny, and then one of them took a styrofoam cup, went over to the liquid oxygen tap, and drew off a cupful of liquid oxygen. He then struck a match and held it over the top of the liquid oxygen. The match went out. He explained that it was due to the condensation of the humidity from the air over the extremely cold surface of the oxygen. So I still don't know if I used oxygen or nitrogen to "inert" the gasoline tanks on the bathyscaph. 4. (Minor) Jacques Piccard was the son of Auguste Piccard, who built the Trieste, later known as the Trieste I, for academic research purposes. The U.S. Navy bought the Trieste I, then ordered a newer version built to their own specifications. The Italian-Swiss heritage of the Trieste was carefully camouflaged, but they forgot to change the part where one piece of equipment was lubricated by "pushing an olive through the tube". 5. (Doubly Scary) The stuff that you do, you just don't think about it at the time, and you don't even remember most of it. I'm thinking of the time we almost sent a Submiss/Subsunk message. These messages were created in the 1960s, perhaps after the Thresher was lost, or more likely after Scorpion went down. But there was a special format and process and mechanism for this kind of message, because of the problems that had happened in letting the President know about the situation. In the case of a combat submarine, there was a standard in the number of hours after a communication was due, before the President was notified. Since I was selected to be the officer who remained on the surface, I used the underwater telephone to communicate with my counterparts aboard the scaph during the dive. The "underwater telephone" is a sonar system, very low-fidelity, for talking with submerged folks, or rather, for talking with folks in submerged vehicles. There was a noticeable delay in carrying on a conversation with someone who was 6,000 feet away, even with the rapid speed of sound in water. For the DSVs and DSRVs such as the Trieste, the Submiss/Subsunk time frame was minutes, not hours. Our researchers on the ocean bottom on this day were acting like researchers, and not like submariners, and they got interested in something they were working on, and the underwater telephone became a nuisance, so they turned off the UWT. After ten minutes, we were required to call the White House. So I got on a voice radio circuit with NavCommSta San Diego, and I told them to open an unencrypted, unclassified, FLASH priority voice channel to the White House. The Commanding Officer of the fleet tug began reading from the laminated card on which I had written the exact time, latitude, longitude, and water depth. He was almost finished with the message when the UWT sprang to life with the researchers exclaiming about something amazing that they had seen. He simply concluded his dictation with, "Cancel this message. Cancel this message." In the hot washup of the incident, we were told that a Marine Colonel had left the EOB and had walked over to the basement of the White House to position himself to deliver our message. Then I guess he just walked back. 6. (Dumb) Trieste used iron BBs for negative buoyancy, and avgas (aviation gasoline) for positive buoyancy. During a dive the Trieste dribbled off iron shot or avgas as necessary, to maintain neutral buoyancy. I was the hull officer, and I ordered the iron BBs by the barrel from the original source in Italy. One time I got a delivery of American iron BBs instead of the Italian iron BBs that I had ordered. The Bureau of Supplies and Accounts was apparently on a "Buy American" kick. I opened the 55-gallon drum and inspected the American iron BBs, and I was worried about their quality and consistency, and about the amount of slag in the barrel. The BBs were carried in a hopper in the middle of the bathyscaph. The hopper funneled down to a drain pipe that had a coil of wire in it. The iron BBs were held in place by a magnetic field generated by that coil of wire. In order to ascend, the bathyscaphe pilot turned off the current to the coil of wire, and the iron BBs dribbled out the bottom. When the current was restored, the BBs stopped flowing. Big chunks of slag would have been a big problem. I wrote a letter of concern, and sent it up through the chain of command. I asked whether these American iron BBs complied with the requisite specifications, since I couldn't find a specification for the BBs. The letter went up the chain to the Officer in Charge of the Trieste (we didn't have a Commanding Officer) to the "Commodore" of Submarine Development Group Two, to Commander Submarine Flotilla Two, to Commander, Submarine Forces, U.S. Pacific Fleet, to the Commandant of the Naval Ships Systems Command, to the Commandant of Mare Island Naval Shipyard, then back to the Officer in Charge of Trieste. The last forwarding letter said that the expertise with making this decision was with the Hull Officer of Trieste, and that was me. I rejected the American BBs, four months after I had asked for an expert opinion. And on that dumb note, we will stop for the night. Many thanks to Julie for inviting me and for setting everything up. And thanks to Alan for digging into the bilges to find the details that I had not thought to include in Forces Adrift.
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #84 of 85: John Spears (banjojohn) Sun 18 Oct 15 14:48
permalink #84 of 85: John Spears (banjojohn) Sun 18 Oct 15 14:48
What a great way to spend a Sunday afternoon! Thank you Chuck, Alan and Julie. I still have many essays yet to read.
inkwell.vue.484
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Forces Adrift, Life on a Submarine, with Chuck Charlton
permalink #85 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Sat 12 Dec 15 11:53
permalink #85 of 85: Waiting for Baudot (chuck) Sat 12 Dec 15 11:53
By the way, I have made a minor addition at a reader's suggestion. In the chapter titled "Trieste" near the very end, I have added a recently declassified photograph. <http://forcesadrift.com/trieste.html>
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