Inkwell: Authors and Artists
Topic 486: David Berliner & Gene Glass, 50 Myths and Lies That Threaten American Public Schools.
inkwell.vue.486
:
David Berliner & Gene Glass, 50 Myths and Lies That Threaten American Public Schools.
permalink #51 of 74: Ari Davidow (ari) Wed 23 Dec 15 06:44
permalink #51 of 74: Ari Davidow (ari) Wed 23 Dec 15 06:44
So, how do we change that dialogue?
inkwell.vue.486
:
David Berliner & Gene Glass, 50 Myths and Lies That Threaten American Public Schools.
permalink #52 of 74: Lisa Harris (lrph) Wed 23 Dec 15 13:42
permalink #52 of 74: Lisa Harris (lrph) Wed 23 Dec 15 13:42
The key to changing the dialogue, in my opinion, is education. The more people know, the more they are willing to change. Most voters don't realize how their property taxes effect their local schools. Most voters don't know how their state legislators and federal congress-folk tie the hands of the local school boards. Most voters would trust their local school boards and principals MUCH more than they would the state and federal lawmakers. However, MOST voters are uneducated to the process. Why? you will inevitably ask. Well, the cynic in me says that the decision-makers have it in their best interest to keep the electorate uneducated. So if they don't fund education properly, and they put too much emphasis on educational reform that does nothing to actually educate anyone, then the electorate stays uneducated and the decision makers keep their jobs (with great health benefits, retirement benefits, days off benefits, etc.).
inkwell.vue.486
:
David Berliner & Gene Glass, 50 Myths and Lies That Threaten American Public Schools.
permalink #53 of 74: Bruce (bumbaugh) Wed 23 Dec 15 13:49
permalink #53 of 74: Bruce (bumbaugh) Wed 23 Dec 15 13:49
Hear, hear, Lisa!
inkwell.vue.486
:
David Berliner & Gene Glass, 50 Myths and Lies That Threaten American Public Schools.
permalink #54 of 74: Ari Davidow (ari) Wed 23 Dec 15 13:52
permalink #54 of 74: Ari Davidow (ari) Wed 23 Dec 15 13:52
When I look at research on how people make decisions (starting from the now-common knowledge that when faced with facts that conflict with beliefs, the usual response is stronger belief), I am no longer convinced that this is a matter of disseminating "better," more "truthy" facts. I'm also uncomfortable with the "50 Myths" book, which I read as frequently ill-tempered, sarcastic, and stating as black and white things that (from my perspective) are grey. That makes it a good promoter of "my facts vs your facts," perhaps, but not an effective teaching, learning, or organizing tool (imnho). This is too important an issue to settle for polarization on.
inkwell.vue.486
:
David Berliner & Gene Glass, 50 Myths and Lies That Threaten American Public Schools.
permalink #55 of 74: Lisa Harris (lrph) Wed 23 Dec 15 20:33
permalink #55 of 74: Lisa Harris (lrph) Wed 23 Dec 15 20:33
One of the things I really like about this book is the research cited at the end of each chapter. There is overwhelming research that shows that these myths are in fact, myths. There is little research to show otherwise. However, if you find any, I'd be glad to read that, too. I read a lot of educational research (it's part of my continuing education as an educator). Were the authors snarky, sarcastic, ill-tempered? Maybe. I am, too. Those of us who work day in and day out knowing these things to be true, yet having mandates directing us to work in a different way, are fed up. If it comes through in the writing, I say, "It's about time." Polarization is what happens when people stick their heels in the ground and refuse to budge. I am proud of the fact that I have been able to listen with clarity to the pros and cons of such reform as the Common Core State Standards. And truth be told, I think they are fine standards to set. If you're English speaking and middle class and without special education needs. They are fine standards to set on a sliding timeline for children in different kinds of homes and with different learning abilities. Anyone and everyone who has ever worked closely with or done research on at-risk populations will tell you that it's about TIME more so than ability. Anyone with any common sense can see that to be so. However, our decision makers still refuse to make accommodations for what we know is so. There shouldn't be polarization. The research, in fact, is clear. English language learners need 4-7 YEARS minimum of GOOD English education to begin to speak, read, and write fluently. They can (and should) learn the subject level content. However, the language aspect of the subject has to be specially addressed. (I have recently finished my 5th course in teaching ELL students, and how to make accommodations in language so as not to hinder the attainment of subject matter learning). Children with language processing disorders (including most kids on the autism spectrum) can not process and use language in the ways the CCSS requires of them. It doesn't mean they can't do the math or understand the book, it just means they have a different (not standardized-testable) way of thinking and processing which can't be communicated in typical ways. The polarization has occurred because people who don't know about education are making decisions about education. They have created polarization through what they want to believe, rather than what the experts know. Think about the polarization with regards to global warming. The experts know there should be no question.
inkwell.vue.486
:
David Berliner & Gene Glass, 50 Myths and Lies That Threaten American Public Schools.
permalink #56 of 74: jelly fish challenged (reet) Wed 23 Dec 15 20:38
permalink #56 of 74: jelly fish challenged (reet) Wed 23 Dec 15 20:38
Hear, hear.
inkwell.vue.486
:
David Berliner & Gene Glass, 50 Myths and Lies That Threaten American Public Schools.
permalink #57 of 74: Cliff Dweller (robinsline) Wed 23 Dec 15 21:21
permalink #57 of 74: Cliff Dweller (robinsline) Wed 23 Dec 15 21:21
You are very eloquent on this subject, Lisa. Do you do any lobbying or other advocacy (in your spare time, ; )?
inkwell.vue.486
:
David Berliner & Gene Glass, 50 Myths and Lies That Threaten American Public Schools.
permalink #58 of 74: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Thu 24 Dec 15 04:22
permalink #58 of 74: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Thu 24 Dec 15 04:22
How do you solve the dilemma of so many teachers nearing retirement and pensions, burned out by the politics of public education, already have their lesson plans in place...and along comes digital and Open Source Learning...and no matter how you try to teach these dogs new tricks they are just simply too old, too tired, and just plain resistant? Just blow them off and work with the new kids on the block? What are the age demographics of those teaching in education now? Not their ages, but a spread of how many years they have been teaching. Is this going to have to be one of those long term strategies? Wait for the current 'pack' to retire while grooming the young and amenable? These are all just strategy questions aimed at those trying to "teach". Don't know how we're going to solve the Administrative, Political, State and Federal directive and money problems.
inkwell.vue.486
:
David Berliner & Gene Glass, 50 Myths and Lies That Threaten American Public Schools.
permalink #59 of 74: Lisa Harris (lrph) Thu 24 Dec 15 06:01
permalink #59 of 74: Lisa Harris (lrph) Thu 24 Dec 15 06:01
You talk about two different issues here: Teacher shortage and teaching teachers to teach coding and other things deemed necessary in the digital age. I;m going to answer the second first and the teacher shortage next. The idea that children need to learn to code and learn how to use open source (whatever that is) at a young age is false. It isn't necessary. What is necessary at the elementary level is to focus on elementary learning. That is what CCSS and the push to teach coding is pushing against. 5-11 year olds need to learn how to speak, listen, read, write, and compute on a basic level masterfully before we teach them how to do anything else. That includes, by the way, critical thinking. Without basic knowledge, critical thinking can not exist. Also, developmentally, critical thinking does not exist for most 5-7 year olds. Children have been educated in basics for centuries, and throughout those centuries the children grew up into adults who created the technologies and innovations we couldn't live without today. Just because we have new technologies, however, doesn't change the fact that we still need to focus on the basics before we move on to the more advanced. In a million years no one would suggest that a first year ballet student begin to learn to dance on pointe. First they need to learn the basics masterfully before they can learn the more advanced techniques. To give you a more concrete idea of what is happening in today's schools, take a look at this diagram of Webb's Depth of Knowledge chart <http://tinyurl.com/8j8ycwp> Here you will see four quadrants, each requiring more intellectual rigor than the next. Developmentally, with instruction, my 5 year olds can reliably handle the tasks in Levels 1. And I mean reliably...all the time...no problem. I can teach them the basic skills they need to be ready to learn the Level 2 skills in the 1-3 grades. However, now, we are required to design lessons which touch on Level 3 and 4 DOK tasks IN PLACE of the DOK tasks in Levels 1 and 2. Our kids can't learn Level 4 (or coding) until they've mastered the previous levels of learning. The idea that we will teach to all 4 levels simultaneously to improve rigor is absurd. Now, that said, it is not absurd to require that kind of thinking and mastery at the high school level. Projects and homework assignments at the high school level should focus on Level 3 and 4 tasks.
inkwell.vue.486
:
David Berliner & Gene Glass, 50 Myths and Lies That Threaten American Public Schools.
permalink #60 of 74: Lisa Harris (lrph) Thu 24 Dec 15 06:23
permalink #60 of 74: Lisa Harris (lrph) Thu 24 Dec 15 06:23
Actually, I'm not going to talk about teacher shortage. There are too many factors and I do not feel competent to address it. Robin, both my sister and my aunt were on their local school boards. I have considered a run for it myself, but I don't want to leave my classroom. I love teaching the 5 year olds. The time it takes for me to write these posts, I could spend recording the data I've collected this week (or folding laundry). The truth as I see it about great teachers is this: we can't advocate for ourselves or our profession because we're too busy/caught up doing a great job teaching.
inkwell.vue.486
:
David Berliner & Gene Glass, 50 Myths and Lies That Threaten American Public Schools.
permalink #61 of 74: Ari Davidow (ari) Thu 24 Dec 15 07:00
permalink #61 of 74: Ari Davidow (ari) Thu 24 Dec 15 07:00
Lisa, I hear you. There is a whole mess of lack of funding and lack of training and frankly, lack of respect, that makes me regard anyone who stays in teaching with awe. But, "50 Myths" doesn't address some of the big things that nag at those who also see places where funding is misdirected and where teaching doesn't seem to be what it should be. We all know why teachers need tenure. But I am probably in a majority in having experienced several teachers while in school who were terrible. There seems to be no good way to remove them, and there has to be. I'm not sure we would be coming up with so many punitive, meaningless ways to rate teachers if this wasn't a common experience. And the unions not only don't seem to have ways of cleaning house, they seem to want to pretend that all accusations of teacher incompetence relate to, say, teachers trying to teach stuff that some loud and ignorant members of the community don't want kids to know. Then we have the money that is misspent. It used to be incomprehensible that a for-profit school, paying teachers less than public schools, and sucking up a tremendous amount of money as profit, could out-perform public schools. Some charters consistently do so. (Sure, many charters are mediocre, as well, but that isn't always the point.) I was appalled by the story of what happened in Newark, and have to wonder in how many places money is being drained from public school system budgets not as capitalist profit, but to enable the systems to featherbed. If we can't acknowledge that this is sometimes a problem (an unscoped problem, because nobody who is in favor of public education succeeding seems to want to know how big it is), and if the union response is "oh, sure, there are some bad apples, but this is irrelevant", than we get nowhere. It isn't enough to act as though people who are in favor of charter schools are just ignorant or beneficiaries of a different way to skim money from the public. There are real problems that have to be addressed, and nowhere in "50 Myths" did I find acknowledgement that there was anything wrong with public schools beyond ignorance or the greed of those who want to strip mine it for private gain. That doesn't map to what I see here in Boston, or what I read about elsewhere.
inkwell.vue.486
:
David Berliner & Gene Glass, 50 Myths and Lies That Threaten American Public Schools.
permalink #62 of 74: Lisa Harris (lrph) Thu 24 Dec 15 08:25
permalink #62 of 74: Lisa Harris (lrph) Thu 24 Dec 15 08:25
Yes, everyone has experienced a teacher who was sub par. My personal experience was with Roseanne Ponchik.Roseanne was my 2nd grade teacher. Every kid I know who was in that class with me would agree that it was a wasted year of education. She sucked and we didn't learn a thing. She was a first year teacher teaching in an Open Classroom environment for which she had NO training. The following year she was transferred to different school with a different curriculum. It has been 43 years since that time. If you Google her today you will find out that she had a truly illustrious career as an influential educator and humanitarian. When my son was in kindergarten he was assigned a teacher who I knew from my experience at the school was less than what I wanted for him (her classroom management was so horrendous, the kids were in actual danger). I requested, and received, a class transfer. The next year she was transferred to a different school where her principal (apparently) worked with her and she is now a beloved kindergarten teacher in her new school. Each of our individual anecdotes do not tell us the whole story of a teacher. A single walk through for 5-20 minutes by a principal doesn't tell the whole story either. Now don't get me wrong, there are perpetually bad teachers out there. I work with one who seriously needs to be retrained or removed. The process is slow, as it should be, because sub-par teachers can become amazing teachers. Charter Schools are not the same as public schools. They do not have to keep students that do not perform well or behave a certain way. That is not the case with public schools. We are required to take and educate everyone, and we are judged by the success of the children. The fact is, there isn't a problem with public schools. We educate our students better, with more rigor, and better research than ever before. The problem, if you read between the lines, is with wealth distribution (not to the schools, but the socioeconomic levels of students) and the influx of foreign born students being held to a standard that their predecessors in previous generations were not held to. These are not problems schools can fix. These are problems society has to fix. By blaming the schools and teachers, reformers throw a red-herring at the real problem while destroying what is good in our schools.
inkwell.vue.486
:
David Berliner & Gene Glass, 50 Myths and Lies That Threaten American Public Schools.
permalink #63 of 74: Ari Davidow (ari) Thu 24 Dec 15 09:07
permalink #63 of 74: Ari Davidow (ari) Thu 24 Dec 15 09:07
>By blaming the schools and teachers, reformers throw a red-herring >at the real problem while destroying what is good in our schools. I think that's the red herring. At least in this discussion, nobody is doing so. But there =are= problems with some specific public schools and public school districts, and airing that, much less discussing and addressing that, seem beyond the pale.
inkwell.vue.486
:
David Berliner & Gene Glass, 50 Myths and Lies That Threaten American Public Schools.
permalink #64 of 74: Lisa Harris (lrph) Thu 24 Dec 15 12:21
permalink #64 of 74: Lisa Harris (lrph) Thu 24 Dec 15 12:21
Ari, I am open to anything specific you have to cite. Please, tell me which district has problems, what they are, how they've been ignored or handled. It seems that you disagree with the premise of the book. That is, that the myths de-myth-defied in this book are not a cause for the troubles in our public schools. That our public schools are failing and Charter schools, better teacher evaluations, and controlling misspent money will improve what ails them. That is fine. All I was wondering, in good faith, is what evidence beyond your personal beliefs and anecdotes to support your views? If you don't have any specific evidence, please say so. David Berliner and Gene Glass did, in fact, cite a lot of reliable evidence. I tend to follow the data. If you have real data to back up what you say, I will read it with the same openness I read "50 Myths."
inkwell.vue.486
:
David Berliner & Gene Glass, 50 Myths and Lies That Threaten American Public Schools.
permalink #65 of 74: Ari Davidow (ari) Fri 25 Dec 15 16:28
permalink #65 of 74: Ari Davidow (ari) Fri 25 Dec 15 16:28
Lisa, I started off citing the book about what happened in Newark following Mark Zuckerberg's big gift of money for consultants. I feel like I've mentioned it a couple of times. There's a reasonable place to start: The Prize, by Dale Russakoff I could also dig into fairly well-known issues in the city near where I live, Boston. I'll do that next if mentioning Newark continues to create a void of non-response.
inkwell.vue.486
:
David Berliner & Gene Glass, 50 Myths and Lies That Threaten American Public Schools.
permalink #66 of 74: Lisa Harris (lrph) Fri 25 Dec 15 17:29
permalink #66 of 74: Lisa Harris (lrph) Fri 25 Dec 15 17:29
Okay. You're right. You mentioned that up thread and I missed it. I just read an article in Business Insider about it. I haven't had time to read the book. It sounds like Zuckerberg wanted to help, was convinced that his money would solve the problem, and lo and behold it didn't. I promise I will read the book. It sounds interesting. I'm not surprised it failed. Lots of money to the school district will not solve the problems of poverty in the community. I don't know a lot about Newarks schools, but I do know this: all failing school districts in America are in poor communities. The problem isn't the schools or teachers. The problem is poverty. I would guess that the schools in Boston which concern you also have the problems all inner city schools have: white flight couples with poverty equals schools populated by students who are learning a lot, just not enough to catch up on the year or more they were behind when they entered kindergarten.
inkwell.vue.486
:
David Berliner & Gene Glass, 50 Myths and Lies That Threaten American Public Schools.
permalink #67 of 74: Ari Davidow (ari) Sun 27 Dec 15 08:28
permalink #67 of 74: Ari Davidow (ari) Sun 27 Dec 15 08:28
Well, all the problems start with money. I'm not sure it's even fair to start talking about teacher pay if the actual infrastructure sucks--if you're teaching in leaky, drafty schools with water-damaged texts (that was the situation here in Boston not too long ago in several schools--I have no clear sense if it has been sufficiently addressed two superintendents later). But, Newark was an illumination of fuck up on all sides. It wasn't just that Zuckerberg's money went to lots of consultants and other places people tend to put mney when they aren't actually talking to people, it was that the school system had been the source of employment in a city where unemployment goes out the roof. So, you have a union and a system that are determined to keep people on the payroll who have never had a function, much less competence, trying to look good against charters that have none of that baggage. One of the saddest, repeating tropes of the book is to compare the resources available to dedicated teachers in the Newark School district, many of whom were clearly as good or better than those in the charter schools--but unable to do nearly enough for students given the overhead of a corrupt and mismanaged system. Newark was a failure on every level--Zuckerberg's money was mostly thrown away. The one measurable effect was getting Cory Booker from Mayor to the US Senate. School reform? Mostly didn't happen, and is unlikely to happen unless the overall economy in Newark changes. I have to wonder how much what Russakoff highlights in the school system is true of Newark city jobs, overall--I have to assume a lot. Which brings me to another point that Diane Ravitch now seems to be emphasizing (I think it's her), which is that it is very hard to reform education when creating good schools is so dependent on so many things beyond the control of school districts--nutrition, healthcare, shelter, social services in general. I wish the authors of "50 Myths" were more actively participating in this conversation. As disappointed as I was in the book's tone and what I perceived to be straw men, I remain worried about how little we are doing to improve education and how much we have done to stupidly politicize it. And I still don't understand how siphoning money out of education to pay for-profit charter school shareholders leads to better outcomes, in general, than reforming the school systems. I have come to suspect that, to many people, reforming the school system is a lost cause, and there is a Tea Party-ish, "we'll just tear things down and start over" tantrum that is increasing the damage without improving education for enough people. And that, in part, is what Russakoff's book is about.
inkwell.vue.486
:
David Berliner & Gene Glass, 50 Myths and Lies That Threaten American Public Schools.
permalink #68 of 74: Ari Davidow (ari) Sun 27 Dec 15 14:41
permalink #68 of 74: Ari Davidow (ari) Sun 27 Dec 15 14:41
Boston's problems have a little to do with white flight, but they are also exacerbated by bitterness over bussing. I think that's part of every community's story--there's more to it than white flight. The impact of white flight, however, gets exacerbated by the fact that we tend to use property taxes to fund education. In a few states (NH, I believe, being one) that is no longer considered equitable--there have to be distributive policies in place to ensure that districts that need the money get a fair share of what is there. (That doesn't necessarily mean that districts in need get all they need--we're still unwilling to fund schools well enough to succeed. We have to change that, but it will take rethinking how education is explained, not just barraging people with straw men and the "facts" that attack them.
inkwell.vue.486
:
David Berliner & Gene Glass, 50 Myths and Lies That Threaten American Public Schools.
permalink #69 of 74: Kevin Wheeler (krome) Sat 2 Jan 16 17:26
permalink #69 of 74: Kevin Wheeler (krome) Sat 2 Jan 16 17:26
I want to apologize for my absence here,especially to Lisa. Life hasn't afforded me reading time of late. I've enjoyed the commentary and wish I had more to add. My father's brother was a career educator in the Houston Independent School District, retiring as Assistant Superintendent. Between him and all his connections, I was able to hurdle technical fails, solely for lack of attendance, in 7th, 8th and 9th grades, without repeating. I dropped out in 11th grade. I had plenty to say about methods of education before anyone cared. It's good to see people caring, even if it's people like the Bushes who end up getting to foist failed paradigms on others. For all my connected hurdling , I graduated with a BS Chemistry/minor Math and now I can't find a job which even acknowledges that work.
inkwell.vue.486
:
David Berliner & Gene Glass, 50 Myths and Lies That Threaten American Public Schools.
permalink #70 of 74: Lisa Harris (lrph) Sun 3 Jan 16 05:29
permalink #70 of 74: Lisa Harris (lrph) Sun 3 Jan 16 05:29
I'm glad to see you posting now that you can, Kevin. I'd like to thank David for joining us. Now we turn to our annual State of The World topic. Please feel free to continue discussing education here.
inkwell.vue.486
:
David Berliner & Gene Glass, 50 Myths and Lies That Threaten American Public Schools.
permalink #71 of 74: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Sun 3 Jan 16 05:30
permalink #71 of 74: Ted Newcomb (tcn) Sun 3 Jan 16 05:30
SOTW link will be up early Tuesday morning. I'll post it here and everywhere. Please push it on all your networks. Can hardly wait!
inkwell.vue.486
:
David Berliner & Gene Glass, 50 Myths and Lies That Threaten American Public Schools.
permalink #72 of 74: Tiffany Lee Brown's Moustache (magdalen) Tue 5 Jan 16 15:44
permalink #72 of 74: Tiffany Lee Brown's Moustache (magdalen) Tue 5 Jan 16 15:44
really interesting stuff. thanks to everyone who participated, especially Lisa and the authors.
inkwell.vue.486
:
David Berliner & Gene Glass, 50 Myths and Lies That Threaten American Public Schools.
permalink #73 of 74: Bruce (bumbaugh) Wed 6 Jan 16 09:50
permalink #73 of 74: Bruce (bumbaugh) Wed 6 Jan 16 09:50
I remain interested in these issues and this conversation. It seems to me, for instance, that the Newark story is only tangentially a "school story," when we get down to it. It's more a story of insider politics, patronage, and smart people who think they and their money can fix things up right quick. That said, if <ari> thinks the book is worth my time, I'll add it to the list.
inkwell.vue.486
:
David Berliner & Gene Glass, 50 Myths and Lies That Threaten American Public Schools.
permalink #74 of 74: Ari Davidow (ari) Wed 6 Jan 16 10:34
permalink #74 of 74: Ari Davidow (ari) Wed 6 Jan 16 10:34
I thought that the book about what happened in Newark was worth reading and reasonably well-written. It was also depressing--once you get out of the classroom, kids seem to be an afterthought, although their cause is evoked by everyone. I probably got most useful to think about from a recent Diane Ravitch book, "Reign of Error," and what I've gathered from efforts trying to improve Boston's public schools, including one specific small campaign to turn a broken down neighborhood school in a shitty part of town into a rebuilt STEM magnet school (success!). I live in a nearby suburb, Newton, where we have excellent public schools, and so far, have been willing to pay for them. The contrast between what our kids got, and what Boston kids get, is too great for comfort.
Members: Enter the conference to participate. All posts made in this conference are world-readable.