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Julie Rehmeyer, Through the Shadowlands
permalink #51 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Mon 3 Jul 17 08:25
permalink #51 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Mon 3 Jul 17 08:25
OK, finally able to catch up here! Sorry to have disappeared for a bit. <ssabrina> said: "It really is pretty ironic that you went to Death Valley, though I suppose one could say it was the beginning of the death of the mortally ill Julie." It is even more apt than you guessed, Janis. Here's how I describe it in the prologue of the book: "Before I left for Death Valley, Id told friends that I felt like I was going to the desert to die. I fully expected to be breathing at the end of the trip, but I couldnt keep everything together as I had been doing for years, holding on to my responsibilities and dreams in spite of the barriers my illness threw in my path. Whether the experiment worked or didnt, the life I had lived was over. I was staring into a cavernous darkness, beyond any imagined future I could invent." While I was there, I discovered an enormous freedom in that sense of surrender. With all my imagined obligations gone, I found that life had an unimagined spaciousness. Just sitting in my camp chair, watching the colors of the desert change as the sun moved across the sky -- it felt like enough. That became a touchpoint for me that has proven durable. When I'm stressed out, caught up in my desires and dreams and aspirations and uncertainties, I'll think, "I died out there in the desert. This is all extra, an unearned gift." And that kind of resets me, every time.
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Julie Rehmeyer, Through the Shadowlands
permalink #52 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Mon 3 Jul 17 08:40
permalink #52 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Mon 3 Jul 17 08:40
<karish> said this: "The book framed what you'd shown us in your articles and on the Well in the context of your personal and spiritual history. Thanks for your openness. This framing shows us where you developed the strength to do this knowing that while some of us would find it inspiring others would dismiss your work as over-emotional and subjective." As the book was forming itself in my mind, it could have been structured in many different ways, and the different approaches offered different things. Initially, I imagined a book that would have tried to give more of a big view of the illness, describing other people's experiences with the illness as well. In such a book, I would have described my own experience, but in a less intimate, emotional way. But as time went on, all these amazing things happened -- with mold avoidance and Erik the Mold Warrior and Timmy the Wood Elf and meeting John and having my health improve so much. And then I felt like there was this big challenge to bring the reader with me through all that, to keep them with me as I dove deep into the rabbit hole. I felt like the best way of doing that was to open myself up fully to the reader. I do lose a kind of distanced authority in doing that, and I also lose the big picture view of the illness. And, of course, I make myself hugely vulnerable.
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Julie Rehmeyer, Through the Shadowlands
permalink #53 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Mon 3 Jul 17 09:22
permalink #53 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Mon 3 Jul 17 09:22
<ari> asked about what we do about bad science, which is a really terrific question. In the book, I highlight how bad science affected me and how I responded to it, but I don't really tackle the question of solutions. Of course, I've thought about it, though! It's question of deep interest to me, and I hope to do more writing about it in the future. I feel like a lot of the discussion about the reality of science can get exceedingly intellectual and ungrounded, kind of forgetting about the real-world consequences and what we're really trying to do with this whole scientific project. So I see a place for the kind of writing I really like to do, which blends the emotional and the intellectual. There's a lot more I want to learn about the efforts to improve science, but I can point you to one of the most interesting projects. Brian Nosek of the Center for Open Science has been doing fantastic work on this, both in trying to establish just how the big the problem really is and in coming up with solutions. The former is what he's gotten the most publicity for at this point -- he's led big efforts to replicate results, starting with psychology, where his team found that only a third of psychology results replicated. Here's an article discussing that, including the debate about its significance: <https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/03/psychologys-replication-cr isis-cant-be-wished-away/472272/> Less well-known is Nosek's work on solutions. He's proposed major reforms to the process of scientific publishing and review, laying out his vision here: <https://arxiv.org/abs/1205.1055>. The abstract describes it pretty well: "Existing norms for scientific communication are rooted in anachronistic practices of bygone eras, making them needlessly inefficient. We outline a path that moves away from the existing model of scientific communication to improve the efficiency in meeting the purpose of public science - knowledge accumulation. We call for six changes: (1) full embrace of digital communication, (2) open access to all published research, (3) disentangling publication from evaluation, (4) breaking the "one article, one journal" model with a grading system for evaluation and diversified dissemination outlets, (5) publishing peer review, and, (6) allowing open, continuous peer review. We address conceptual and practical barriers to change, and provide examples showing how the suggested practices are being used already. The critical barriers to change are not technical or financial; they are social. While scientists guard the status quo, they also have the power to change it." He wrote this five years ago -- it'd be interesting to talk to him to find out if he feels like we're moving in that direction at all. He's also founded a start-up to create software that will help scientists both share their work and *do* their work better, with the hope that the latter will seduce scientists into doing the former. I do think that major reform is needed. John Ioannidis says that 90 percent of published research is wrong (<https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/11/lies-damned-lies-and-medi cal-science/308269/), and more than half of even the best research is wrong. Of course, we wouldn't expect all published research to be right -- we should expect that we'll have many false leads along the way. But the problems we're dealing with right now are a lot bigger than that, and I think right now, we're wasting most scientific research dollars. It's a testimony to how valuable science is that it continues to make an enormous contribution to society in spite of all that waste. The good news is that the scientific community is really waking up to the problem (though much more is needed). It'll be fascinating to watch all this unfold in the coming years.
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Julie Rehmeyer, Through the Shadowlands
permalink #54 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Mon 3 Jul 17 09:27
permalink #54 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Mon 3 Jul 17 09:27
I do think the problems with the PACE trial are especially egregious, though I would also say that at this point, I feel wary of evidence-based medicine as a whole. Most of the evidence just sucks. The whole field of nutrition, for example, is a mess, and there are also astonishing and frightening problems in cancer research. And really, the problems are everywhere. It's just that we're only now beginning to look. I went to a cancer clinic for a test once (not for cancer--an immune system test that is rarely done outside of oncology). It felt so industrial to me. It's hard to describe how violent my response was against it. I trusted NOTHING about it. It felt wrong to the core. That was an emotional response, though it was informed by knowledge that the scientific underpinnings of a lot of this stuff are rotten. My thought was, "I'd rather die." But then, of course, it's complicated. I know people whose lives seem to have been saved by chemotherapy and radiation. Sometimes it really works.
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permalink #55 of 90: Jane Hirshfield (jh) Mon 3 Jul 17 09:58
permalink #55 of 90: Jane Hirshfield (jh) Mon 3 Jul 17 09:58
Do you foresee yourself doing another book in the future, looking at these things from the more distanced stance, Julie? Or other journalism on it? The work you did on getting word out about the PACE trial's grievous failings was such important work to have been part of. It will affect people's lives, as will, differently, this more personal book. (I know it's early to be asking about the future, yet people always seem to do that at bookstore events, so I will here.) You asked us what surprised us about the book (we who followed the life that led to it, and then the writing). What surprised you? Not in your life--but in the way the book turned out in the end?
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permalink #56 of 90: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Mon 3 Jul 17 09:59
permalink #56 of 90: Mark McDonough (mcdee) Mon 3 Jul 17 09:59
One of the problems is that unless you do out and out fraudulent research and are caught at it, you can build a damn fine career on irreproducible results.
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permalink #57 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Mon 3 Jul 17 10:04
permalink #57 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Mon 3 Jul 17 10:04
Truth, <mcdee>, truth. That's what needs to change in the institutional structure of science. Computer just died, so I'll come back to Jane's question shortly.
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Julie Rehmeyer, Through the Shadowlands
permalink #58 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Mon 3 Jul 17 11:05
permalink #58 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Mon 3 Jul 17 11:05
I do see more books in my future, though beyond that, I don't really know. There's so much work that needs to be done in this world, and I have a wide enough variety of talents and interests that I can feel called toward so many different things. The immediate next thing I see myself doing is writing more pieces that are related to the book. The book has so many different facets, and I feel like for each one, I can focus on just that and write a little self-contained essay. The Slate piece I did about assessing internet cures was one example of that. I also want to write an essay just about the love story part. In a longer term way, I'm sure I'll continue to write about ME/CFS to some extent. It's so important, and I've invested so much in learning about it, and so it just seems like a waste not to use that learning to do good in the world. But I don't really see that being the center of my work for decades to come. I also imagine that I'll get back to doing some math writing, though again, I don't see it being the center of my work. Right now, I'm not sure what will be. The issues about reliability of science certainly draw me, so maybe that will be it -- but really, who knows? The only thing that feels really clear to me is that in an immediate way, I need a really big rest. I've gotten a nasty series of exposures after my next door neighbor's house flooded, and that's left me unable to live in my own home and at an alarmingly high level of reactivity -- I can easily end up paralyzed and unable to speak these days, after an extended period before the exposures when I was close to normal. We've been dealing with this for a year now, and it's steadily gotten more and more difficult. So I'm plum worn out, and my body desperately needs an extended period of time without exposures to heal up and for my immune system to calm down. So we're in the process of converting our van, and in a week or so, we're going to head for the hills. John will spend some of his time with me and some of his time elsewhere -- we're playing that by ear. But my hope is to spend the summer going into as few buildings as possible, breathing really good air, and not feeling pressure. Giving the well time to recharge, and seeing what arises within me. I feel hugely blessed that I can make this happen.
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Julie Rehmeyer, Through the Shadowlands
permalink #59 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Mon 3 Jul 17 11:16
permalink #59 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Mon 3 Jul 17 11:16
One more thought on the what's next question: I'm one of those folks who never runs short of ideas, and here's one I was rolling around in my head yesterday. I was thinking, yet again, about how much I wish I could get someone to study me. My reactions are so clear and so profound and so fast that it seems like it shouldn't be that difficult to get some idea of what's happening to me. It would be really, really cool if I could finally get some serious scientists interested, and write a follow-up book about the process of unraveling the physiology of this.
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Julie Rehmeyer, Through the Shadowlands
permalink #60 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Mon 3 Jul 17 11:20
permalink #60 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Mon 3 Jul 17 11:20
As far as what surprised me... My mother ended up being a really big presence in the book, and back when I wrote the book proposal, she wasn't in it at all. As I was writing it, it was clear to me that I needed to talk about her and her view of the world. It felt so obviously needed that it didn't really feel surprising -- and yet, I hadn't gone into it knowing that. Mostly, I just feel really proud of the book. The biggest feeling of surprise, I guess, is that I think the book lives up to the images I had for it. I did it.
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permalink #61 of 90: . (wickett) Mon 3 Jul 17 12:26
permalink #61 of 90: . (wickett) Mon 3 Jul 17 12:26
While I agree that social science studies in general, and especially psychological ones are often not reproducible and often not sufficiently well done to merit being replicated, and that medical research can be both sloppy or not reproducible, or worsefraudulentI think that using the word 'science' to cover just the limited arenas of social science, nutrition, and medicine, is highly misleading. Other scientific disciplines, such as biology, chemistry, physics, mathematics generally don't suffer these problems very much. Your words, taken out of context, could do harm to the scientific endeavor writ large. Also, the impacts of the corporate food lobby on research in the areas of nutrition, medicine, and perhaps psychology (marketing) are outsized and generally negative for medical providers and patients. Bringing attention to ME/CFS patients and the neglect and worse of the medical establishment is an enormous positive, of course, and I commend you for that.
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permalink #62 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Mon 3 Jul 17 15:26
permalink #62 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Mon 3 Jul 17 15:26
That's an important point, <wickett>. Thank you. I was overly broad there, and I'll be more precise in the future. Science is HUGE, and different fields have different characters. At this point, it's clear that there are big problems in psychology, medicine, nutrition, and almost certainly economics. Physics seems pretty unlikely to have similar problems, and I'd guess the same is true of chemistry. I'm less sure about biology. Math is different from science, so replicability isn't really the issue there. With math, it's simple truth that's at stake. Even in math, though, there are large-scale problems in subareas from time to time, where people realize that the foundations aren't so solid and they find themselves unsure what's true and what's not. It takes strength of will to go back to the beginning and clean up the mess, and doing so is not well-rewarded. I think what I'd say is that some areas of science have huge problems, some areas almost certainly don't have huge problems, and we don't yet know how far the problems spread.
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Julie Rehmeyer, Through the Shadowlands
permalink #63 of 90: . (wickett) Mon 3 Jul 17 17:01
permalink #63 of 90: . (wickett) Mon 3 Jul 17 17:01
Thank you kindly, Julie.
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permalink #64 of 90: Jane Hirshfield (jh) Mon 3 Jul 17 22:21
permalink #64 of 90: Jane Hirshfield (jh) Mon 3 Jul 17 22:21
economics isn't called "the dismal science" for nothing... But anything done by human beings will be error prone. Understandings are corrected and altered all the time, in every field. Science's gift is that the errors or misunderstandings do, eventually, get caught up to. What was egregious about the PACE trial, as I understand it through your writings, Julie, is that they themselves rigged the study, changed the bar midway through, and went in from the start intending to prove a preconception. That isn't science, though it could have been, way at the beginning, well intended. At some point though (as when they altered the definitions of "cure"), they must have known they were going beyond accepted practices.
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permalink #65 of 90: Tiffany Lee Brown's Moustache (magdalen) Mon 3 Jul 17 22:53
permalink #65 of 90: Tiffany Lee Brown's Moustache (magdalen) Mon 3 Jul 17 22:53
i've been largely offline the last couple weeks, and i'm sorry i missed most of this discussion! it's great reading it here. i'd like to ask about something, as a fellow writer and patient: does the process of writing affect what you believe to be true? for example, if you feel wishy-washy about something, or have a half-baked theory about some element of your own psychology, do you turn it into something more solid-seeming in order to write about it? i think my other questions i asked in that Psychology Today blog post!
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permalink #66 of 90: Lena via lendie (lendie) Fri 7 Jul 17 23:53
permalink #66 of 90: Lena via lendie (lendie) Fri 7 Jul 17 23:53
I haven't quite finished this book in final form. I did read most of it in draft form. When I was reading it I came away feeling that there were 3 distinct voices: 1. Sort of general narrative of this happened, that happened; 2. The scientist which was somewhat detached, impersonal compared to #1 and then 3. a wonderful, strong melodic and poetic voice when talking about the natural world - the mountains, the cliffs, etc. richly descriptive. How are of those voices are you? Similarly at a certain point I found myself making a timeline from beginning to end that consisted of location, relationship (BF/husband) and health status. I literally had 3 parallel horizontal lines demarking those reference points. What, if any, chronolgy did you work with/from?
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permalink #67 of 90: Lena via lendie (lendie) Sat 8 Jul 17 02:15
permalink #67 of 90: Lena via lendie (lendie) Sat 8 Jul 17 02:15
That's how aware of those voices are you?
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permalink #68 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Sat 8 Jul 17 14:16
permalink #68 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Sat 8 Jul 17 14:16
Interesting questions, lendie. I really wasn't very aware of those different voices when I was writing it, though I definitely get the point you're making. To the extent I could, I worked to integrate the various aspects of the book, so that each passage worked on different levels at once. So, for example, the material about my childhood is relevant both for those who care about my personal transformation and for those who care about the medical mystery or the scientific issues, because I do a lot of careful thinking about how those experiences may have affected my illness and how I could use those connections to help myself get better. Still, I think you're right that different passages are dominated by different tones, even if the underlying material reflects on different aspects of the story. In a fairly unconscious way, I think I tried to weave those different voices together, so that the reader never spends too much time in analysis or lyricism or narrative, losing the others. Chronology also came about largely through trial and error. I tried to make it essentially chronological, starting with the first time I thought, "Maybe I'm sick" and moving to the present. But there was a lot of material I had to go back to, and figuring out the best place to squeeze it in was HARD. I basically pursued the strategy I used in learning to build my house: I made mistakes and then I fixed them. And then I fixed my fixes! I never got very analytical about that process. I never, for example, made a chart like you did. I'm really curious -- did any patterns emerge when you looked at that?
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permalink #69 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Mon 10 Jul 17 07:19
permalink #69 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Mon 10 Jul 17 07:19
I'm delighted to report that Through the Shadowlands got a very positive review from the New Yorker, which called it "eloquent," saying, "Rehmeyers writing is full of verve and curiosity, and shes warmly attuned to how her plight is, in fact, familiar." Woohoo! At the same time, the review makes me want to bang my head against the wall. Somehow, Gelman (who is a statistician and a critic of bad science) seems not to have comprehended any of the very, very serious problems in the PACE trial, and from this review, you'd think that my central problem with the trial was that the treatments just didn't work for me. It's a strangely boneheaded analysis from a very smart guy. And then there are things like the teeth-numbingly bad photograph and the use of "chronic fatigue" rather than "chronic fatigue syndrome" in the headline. That matters, because if you have chronic fatigue, you're tired a lot, and if you have chronic fatigue syndrome, you've got a devastating, multisystem illness. Similar as the phrases are, they're really, really different things. But hey, the bullshit about this illness is endless, and it's not in my power to stop it entirely (though I do hope my work will contribute to a lessening of the flow). And hey! I got a great review in the New Yorker!
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permalink #70 of 90: David Gans (tnf) Mon 10 Jul 17 09:42
permalink #70 of 90: David Gans (tnf) Mon 10 Jul 17 09:42
<scribbled by tnf Mon 10 Jul 17 09:42>
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permalink #71 of 90: David Gans (tnf) Mon 10 Jul 17 09:43
permalink #71 of 90: David Gans (tnf) Mon 10 Jul 17 09:43
Still, a TNY mention is good for getting the word out.
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permalink #72 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Mon 10 Jul 17 09:45
permalink #72 of 90: Julie Rehmeyer (jrehmeyer) Mon 10 Jul 17 09:45
Yup. I expect they'll get some nice letters too.
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permalink #73 of 90: Scott Underwood (esau) Mon 10 Jul 17 10:11
permalink #73 of 90: Scott Underwood (esau) Mon 10 Jul 17 10:11
That's really great news about the NYer.
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permalink #74 of 90: Virtual Sea Monkey (karish) Mon 10 Jul 17 13:10
permalink #74 of 90: Virtual Sea Monkey (karish) Mon 10 Jul 17 13:10
Julie, if you think it's worthwhile to treat the New Yorker review as a teachable moment, I think a good approach would be to ask Prof. Gelman for a more detailed take on the PACE study. "I see the PACE study both as someone who has the disease being studied and as a scientist for whom scientific accountability is very important. I'd be very interested to hear what you think of the PACE study's experimental design and of the interpretation of its data."
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permalink #75 of 90: disclaimers and disentanglements at gailwilliams.com (gail) Mon 10 Jul 17 15:51
permalink #75 of 90: disclaimers and disentanglements at gailwilliams.com (gail) Mon 10 Jul 17 15:51
I found that article slightly confusing. He seemed to be saying that the fact that the participants in the study may have had many different conditions was why it was not up to the task of providing insights? Or was that the point he was making after all? Nice how much he praised the book, anyway!
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