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permalink #426 of 468: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Mon 17 Jan 22 06:54
permalink #426 of 468: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Mon 17 Jan 22 06:54
Vinay, Wikipedia has an article on New Alchemy Institute: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Alchemy_Institute> The NAI website is here: <https://newalchemists.net/> Here's a good article about NAI: <https://medium.com/age-of-awareness/the-new-alchemy-institute-d0992ce33a68> A pdf of "New Alchemy's First 20 Years": <https://newalchemists.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/new-alchemys-first-20-years. pdf> Links to issues of The Journal of the New Alchemists: <https://newalchemists.net/publications/new-alchemy-1971-1991/>
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permalink #427 of 468: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Mon 17 Jan 22 07:04
permalink #427 of 468: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Mon 17 Jan 22 07:04
In <382> I erroneously posted that "... Tuesday the 17th is our last day, though people might hang out and keep posting past that date." Obviously, today (Monday) is the 17th. So today is the formal last day of the conversation, though participants can keep posting as long as they like - we're a long way from the potential maximum number of posts. I want to thank Bruce, Vinay, Emily, and all the others on and off the WELL who've contributed posts. Barring apocalypse (which seems increasingly possible), Bruce and I will be back in January 2023. I'm not thinking we came to any conclusions, as usual, but I hope we've been raising the right questions. And who knows? By the end of the day today, we might see a post that wraps the current state of things all up in a neat package, with a bright red bow on top.
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permalink #428 of 468: Vinay Gupta (hexayurt) Mon 17 Jan 22 08:14
permalink #428 of 468: Vinay Gupta (hexayurt) Mon 17 Jan 22 08:14
Bruce Sterling: Xi Jinping is Green-New-Dealing it over at Davos. Thank god *somebody* is doing the right thing. Pray god the American far right doesn't start seeing US environmentalists as being unpatriotic and corrupted by the Chinese!
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permalink #429 of 468: Vinay Gupta (hexayurt) Mon 17 Jan 22 08:16
permalink #429 of 468: Vinay Gupta (hexayurt) Mon 17 Jan 22 08:16
Jon Lebkowsky: wow. It's been amazing - I've read these religiously for so long, I can't believe I've done one now. <pinches self> must be dreaming. Thank you all!
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permalink #430 of 468: Vinay Gupta (hexayurt) Mon 17 Jan 22 08:18
permalink #430 of 468: Vinay Gupta (hexayurt) Mon 17 Jan 22 08:18
Open Infrastructure Map https://openinframap.org/#8/32.661/-97.06
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permalink #431 of 468: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Mon 17 Jan 22 08:24
permalink #431 of 468: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Mon 17 Jan 22 08:24
Insightful take on China and India, Bruce. The geopolitical center continues to shift away from the post-WWII order of the U.S./NATO vs whatever, without the USSR to organize around, and in Chinas direction. I think that needs to be factored in to so much of what Putin is doing on Russias western border, from the cyberattacks of the Baltics to squashing Georgia to reabsorbing Ukraine. The former KGB apparatchik was born into a global superpower and wants that back desperately, even though theres no ideological or geopolitical reason for Russia to go back there.
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permalink #432 of 468: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Mon 17 Jan 22 08:37
permalink #432 of 468: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Mon 17 Jan 22 08:37
Vinay, infrastructure that can be turned into a bomb is a problem. People have been pointing this out since peaceful atom propaganda appeared not long after the U.S. used warlike atoms to usher in the post-WWII Cold War. Theres a line of historical analysis that argues the U.S. atom-bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki to prevent the USSR from getting occupation forces into Japan first. I dont know that its conclusive, but I find it persuasive. Advocates for renewable energy have been pointing out for decades that you cant make a bomb out of a solar panel or a windmill, the way you can with an oil refinery or a fossil fuel pipeline. Theyre up against more than a century of fossil fuel firms habituating the public to using these incredibly dangerous, toxic substances in daily life. A product like gasoline could never be approved for the consumer market today. However, I dont think the problem is infrastructure. Many of the problems in the U.S. begin with one problem: endemic racism among a majority of white Americans. From there a lot of things flow. For example, there was the Roger Ailes generation of crafty, smart and resentful (Nixon resigning) media people and political operatives harnessing that bigotry, using successive waves of modern media: newspapers, cable TV, talk radio, online engagement algorithms dictated largely by revenue goals rather than human rights or strengthening democratic institutions. One of the ideas theyve been using these media to spread for more than a couple decades now is the falsehood of insecure elections. Liberals look back almost fondly now on George W Bush, now that theyve run the gauntlet of four Trump years. His administration is the one that took this election fraud bullshit from local and state party levels to the national. Then we had a smug and sequestered class of liberal politicians who were (and many still remain) congenitally unable to grasp and act on how debased their friends across the aisle were becoming. They have to raise money too, right? So, many of them let civil rights coast on the legacy of the Civil and Voting Rights acts, triangulated to support free trade, didnt blink too much when James Hansen told them in 1988 that climate disruption was already underway. THEN theres the mainstream journalism sector with its collective head in the sand, covering all this stuff like stenographers so that it can keep elbows with the powerful at the Washington correspondents dinner every year, regularly invoking its rights under the First Amendment while never saying out loud that it believed in democracy, because that would be expressing an OPINION, good grief. Then theres the successful multi-decade campaign to transform the legal interpretation of the Second Amendment into owning guns is a civil right. I could go on. Ultimately, the cure for most of this is not gonna be a refugee-like mass transfer of populations across state lines based on political preference or affiliation, or creating American city-states. Its the slow incremental process of creating progressive change via mass civic engagement. Building support for: defunding fossil fuel companies from their public subsidies, nailing the politicians whove allowed themselves to be bought by Big Carbon, restoring the rules that prevented media consolidation and breaking up the consolidated, regulating social media companies, reviving civics education in my experience, people typically dont like this answer. It lacks a techno-magical edge.
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permalink #433 of 468: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Mon 17 Jan 22 08:42
permalink #433 of 468: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Mon 17 Jan 22 08:42
The concise way to say endemic racism among a majority of white Americans is white supremacy. Too bad using those two words together in the U.S. became such a big reputation killer for 30 or 40 years.
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permalink #434 of 468: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Mon 17 Jan 22 09:19
permalink #434 of 468: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Mon 17 Jan 22 09:19
Thanks for inviting me, Jon. Thanks for the interesting and challenging posts, Vinay and Bruce and everyone whos joined us. This has been the best conversation-in-a-coffee-shop Ive had since early 2020.
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permalink #435 of 468: Paul Belserene (paulbel) Mon 17 Jan 22 09:55
permalink #435 of 468: Paul Belserene (paulbel) Mon 17 Jan 22 09:55
Thank you, everyone, for this conversation. I always check in to SOTW but I've not before felt so engaged in it. let's continue (and George Mokray, via meail: >if we all got vaccinated, locked ourselves down for a month, wore N95 masks when we went out for essentials only. That would, in all probability, end the pandemic right there.< That tweeter is right, it would work *temporarily* if we shut all borders to travel. Or else it would have to be the whole world doing it. China sort of tried it at the very beginning.) In all my voracious sf reading as an adolescent, it was always the case that whole planets did things. "The people of Earth" - well, that seems to be one of the more fanciful conceits of science fiction. We are a planet of cats.
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permalink #436 of 468: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Mon 17 Jan 22 10:12
permalink #436 of 468: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Mon 17 Jan 22 10:12
I've got to catch a plane and head to Bidenistan, so I reckon I'll sign off. *I feel better for having done this. Although the tone of these State of the World is often brutally frank, there's never been a time when I felt worse for going through it. Every day is a gift!
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permalink #437 of 468: Craig Maudlin (clm) Mon 17 Jan 22 10:42
permalink #437 of 468: Craig Maudlin (clm) Mon 17 Jan 22 10:42
Well, thank you. So much good stuff. but, as <435> suggests: let's continue... This alternative, from Vinay in <417>, it the one we already occupy, imo: > ... then we're in a position where we're > going to be teaching reality tunnel management and point-of-view > hygiene to the public, hoping that they'll learn to maintain their > own minds and become resistant to weaponized memes intended to > over-write their reality tunnel with that of the psychic aggressor. We are there and have been for quite some time, perhaps. And journalism has always had a hand in this, I think. The link to the 50 biases in <420> is fun. But why 50? And where are the heuristics and illusions? Humans love our categories, but beware the category mistakes! It's the layer just below this where neuroscience is giving us hints about the semi-chaotic systems from which 'reason' emerges. Perhaps the domain in which we will finally come to understand (and master) our cognitive biases, heuristics, and illusions will be more like a color space or color palette. A continuous, multi-dimensional space of relationships between communication and control. If it didn't already have a different meaning, a good name for his would be: Cyberspace. > This sort of stuff seems like a modernized tarot deck to me, where > one introspects on each card and finds the places in your life where > that cognitive bias has led to bad outcomes. But isn't this completely human? Don't we always work our way through what we later say were just the stages of our early ignorance? It does seem like tarot sometimes. But maybe it's more like the 'old Alchemy' -- which gradually transformed into Chemistry through the painful application of scientific rigor and evolving knowledge techniques. At every stage, we are part of an ongoing process.
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permalink #438 of 468: Craig Maudlin (clm) Mon 17 Jan 22 10:51
permalink #438 of 468: Craig Maudlin (clm) Mon 17 Jan 22 10:51
And thanks for the link in <421>, Brian. Along similar lines: "When logic fails to make sense of a world noisy with inconsistency, paraconsistent logics hold out (im)possible solutions" <https://aeon.co/essays/paraconsistent-logics-find-structure-in-our-inconsisten t-world?utm_source=rss-feed>
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permalink #439 of 468: Craig Maudlin (clm) Mon 17 Jan 22 10:59
permalink #439 of 468: Craig Maudlin (clm) Mon 17 Jan 22 10:59
From Vinay in <420> > What do we do with the limits to our own rationality, once we can > define them? I say we do what humans have always done with limits -- build tools and techniques to overcome them.
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permalink #440 of 468: Vinay Gupta (hexayurt) Mon 17 Jan 22 11:16
permalink #440 of 468: Vinay Gupta (hexayurt) Mon 17 Jan 22 11:16
Emily Gertz: You're describing the strategy which has been tried for 60 years or more, and it's given us Donald Trump. It's failed. Teaching people to be less racist washed out the window immediately the economy corpsed in 2008. I can point to specifically where the "teach people to be less racist" agenda breathed its last: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/jan/02/ndaa-historic -assault-american-liberty America's first black president shredded the Constitution and the Geneva Convention. He followed the long lineage of first female premiers who were deeply inhumane: Thatcher, Mier, Bhutto, Aung (Aung San?), Gandhi and a few others. While a lot of Americans are racist, the fact that a black president was an active participant in breaking down rule of law even further should cure us of any idea that the fundamental axis is race. Neither race nor gender is the fundamental axis. Obama put his weight behind the fascist tendency, and less racial tension in America is not going to fix a society where even the progressive black president was still a fascist: NDAA was an act which can never be forgiven. So if race isn't the fundamental axis, what is? The fundamental axis is money. Even if we teach people to discriminate less against women or black people it will not fix the problem, because those people (including the women and black people) are still going to discriminate against the poor and the helpless. We can move the oppression around, we can shift the lines, but as long as people have freedom they're going to discriminate against the poor, the ugly, the unlucky - even in societies radically free of racial and gender prejudices, there's still plenty of hierarchy to go round. American Asians are pretty good at academia and capitalism, they're doing well, making bank, richer than almost all other social and ethnic groups: they may experience some racism but it's not hampering them getting what they want very much. Why isn't there more racism against us? Because we've got money. The whites in America are fighting against taxation to fund social programmes because *they feel they are getting poorer year on year* and they are right. They're voting with rich people to cut taxes because they think rich people are creating a society which will let more people get rich, increasing the odds of any given individual American becoming rich. They want a president who will print more winning lottery tickets, not one who will check the game is not rigged. Slavery was an economic institution at heart, with racism a simple way to justify the game. But in Ireland they had institutions of astonishing brutality, administered by much the same people who ran slavery, and those systems ran on religion, catholic vs. protestant. Racism, slavery, religious prejudice, gender discrimination... 90% of the fuel is financial. Unpaid labour of wives. This is why my first question to anybody talking about race in America is "so where do you stand on reparations?" I know it's the end of the show now, we've done the State of the World, but I can't resist asking... so where do you stand on reparations?
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permalink #441 of 468: Alan Fletcher : Factual accounts are occluded by excess of interpretation (af) Mon 17 Jan 22 11:33
permalink #441 of 468: Alan Fletcher : Factual accounts are occluded by excess of interpretation (af) Mon 17 Jan 22 11:33
Thank you all .. as a (mostly) reader.
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permalink #442 of 468: Vinay Gupta (hexayurt) Mon 17 Jan 22 11:47
permalink #442 of 468: Vinay Gupta (hexayurt) Mon 17 Jan 22 11:47
Craig Maudlin: I think jury trials count as an attempt to manage cognitive bias. Judge had a bad lunch? You're in trouble, unless it's a jury trial.
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permalink #443 of 468: Paul Belserene (paulbel) Mon 17 Jan 22 12:09
permalink #443 of 468: Paul Belserene (paulbel) Mon 17 Jan 22 12:09
>The fundamental axis is money. Yes. Even if you think it is race, it's important to realize that money was at the root of America's race problem. The reason the South seceded wasn't because they hated Blacks, it's because they understood chattel slavery to be the source not only of their wealth but also their power. And the North understood that too. The efforts of Republicans in preventing the expanse of chattel enslavement into new states and territories was the wedge that led to the Civil War. And after the Civil War, preventing Blacks from voting enabled state governments to continue to operate in the interests of white landowners.
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permalink #444 of 468: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Mon 17 Jan 22 12:28
permalink #444 of 468: Jon Lebkowsky (jonl) Mon 17 Jan 22 12:28
> where do you stand on reparations? Reparations by whom, for whom?
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permalink #445 of 468: Paul Belserene (paulbel) Mon 17 Jan 22 12:44
permalink #445 of 468: Paul Belserene (paulbel) Mon 17 Jan 22 12:44
Well, there's one answer.
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permalink #446 of 468: Craig Maudlin (clm) Mon 17 Jan 22 12:47
permalink #446 of 468: Craig Maudlin (clm) Mon 17 Jan 22 12:47
Vinay Gupta: > Judge had a bad lunch? Ha! Yes. Just before I joined the Well in 1990, I was seated as a juror in a kidnapping case -- as I recall, the accused was a father who had forcibly taken his young, adult daughter and transported her to a location where she was held captive for the purposes of cult de-programming -- her parents felt she had joined a cult. The defense admitted to all the physical allegations: the taking from a public place, the use of force and restraint, the transportation, and the captivity. The only defense was that the daughter really wanted this to happen in order to get a cash settlement from her father! It's embarrassing to say that it took a day or so for me to realize that this was not a kidnapping defense! (IANAL) There must be some cognitive biases at work there. I asked the jury foreperson to give a note to the judge. In the the note, I was essentially asking the judge to confirm my logic, to double-check me for unconscious bias. The result was classic. Jury sent away from the courtroom for a few hours. Once we are called back, the judge's response was (and I quote): "I know what I would like to say, but the answer is, there is no answer." !!! Need better anti-bias tools. In the end, to my dismay, it was jury nullification.
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permalink #447 of 468: Vinay Gupta (hexayurt) Mon 17 Jan 22 14:02
permalink #447 of 468: Vinay Gupta (hexayurt) Mon 17 Jan 22 14:02
Jon Lebkowsky: try this for starters - reparations for black Americans who got inferior education in segregated schools, to be paid for by the Federal government on the basis that these people were taxpaying citizens and had an equal right to education as white people. Clearly calculate economic damages - the victims are still alive - and the entity which did the damage is still incorporated.
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permalink #448 of 468: Paul Belserene (paulbel) Mon 17 Jan 22 14:20
permalink #448 of 468: Paul Belserene (paulbel) Mon 17 Jan 22 14:20
Doesn't that have to be calculated over more than one generation?
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permalink #449 of 468: Vinay Gupta (hexayurt) Mon 17 Jan 22 14:37
permalink #449 of 468: Vinay Gupta (hexayurt) Mon 17 Jan 22 14:37
I *think* this instance is fairly straight forwards: these people were educated imperfectly, they've taken a career hit. Could it be extended further? Of course. But it would be quite nice to get the base case established and built from there. The perfect is the enemy of the good and all that.
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permalink #450 of 468: Paul Belserene (paulbel) Mon 17 Jan 22 14:56
permalink #450 of 468: Paul Belserene (paulbel) Mon 17 Jan 22 14:56
It wouldn't be reparations for the enslavement of their ancestors, though. It would be remediation of a racist educational system.
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