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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #26 of 280: David Gans (tnf) Wed 31 Jan 24 07:31
permalink #26 of 280: David Gans (tnf) Wed 31 Jan 24 07:31
(Sorry to hear, Ellen. Our Chronicle and Sunday NYT continue to arrive on schedule, and in fact the daily Chron started landing a good 20 feet closer to the house a few days ago. Either we have a new delivery guy with a stronger arm, or the other guy has been practicing. (I have seen the delivery guy drive by and toss my paper a few times in recent months.))
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #27 of 280: Paula Span (pspan) Wed 31 Jan 24 08:58
permalink #27 of 280: Paula Span (pspan) Wed 31 Jan 24 08:58
I don't think kids are doing this anymore. To the extent that print newspapers survive, they're delivered by grownups with cars. I still get the NYT on paper in a blue plastic sleeve. But I expect that within my lifetime (I'm 74), it will go away and I will mourn it.
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #28 of 280: David Gans (tnf) Wed 31 Jan 24 09:07
permalink #28 of 280: David Gans (tnf) Wed 31 Jan 24 09:07
THat's how it is here, Paula. A guy in a car, delivering both the NYT and SF CHronicle.
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #29 of 280: Ari Davidow (ari) Wed 31 Jan 24 10:12
permalink #29 of 280: Ari Davidow (ari) Wed 31 Jan 24 10:12
Here in Boston, the same. Among other things, it has to be a guy with a car because most streets only have one or two deliveries. Can't cover the territory with a bike (and I have to wonder how many kids would be interested, given that _their_ families don't get the daily paper, either).
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #30 of 280: b n (ellen) Wed 31 Jan 24 11:23
permalink #30 of 280: b n (ellen) Wed 31 Jan 24 11:23
fwiw, it's been guys in cars for many years.
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #31 of 280: Paulina Borsook (loris) Wed 31 Jan 24 11:24
permalink #31 of 280: Paulina Borsook (loris) Wed 31 Jan 24 11:24
this is an ill-formed thought, but i have observed the term 'journalist' at times seems to have been appropriated to mean 'activist/advocate'. i realize this is a shades of gray situation and obv. investigative reporting is a fine thing --- but i feel the jobtitle, partic. among freelancers/young ppl/etc seems to have become part in the misnfintormation/disinformation wars. the whole 'cult of the amateur' trend sparked by the internet decades ago has led to almost anything being called journalism. 'i am a journalist because i felt like writing this'...which is not to say there isnt xlnt grassroots work by ppl whose workproduct we would consider journalism. but still... as an aside, just watched apple tv's 'the morning show'. somehow seems correct to mention it here (although that's about tv news not newspapers).
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #32 of 280: Alan Fletcher (af) Wed 31 Jan 24 11:32
permalink #32 of 280: Alan Fletcher (af) Wed 31 Jan 24 11:32
<scribbled by af Tue 6 Feb 24 11:43>
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #33 of 280: Paula Span (pspan) Wed 31 Jan 24 12:16
permalink #33 of 280: Paula Span (pspan) Wed 31 Jan 24 12:16
Well, this is the logical consequence of that pesky First Amendment, which prohibits any kind of requirement or licensure for the press. So yes, anyone can say they are a reporter, and they may or may not subscribe to the code that John and I teach at our respective universities, urging not both- sidesism but honesty, soliciting a range of opinions, keeping our thumbs off the scale. The word "objectivity" has fallen into some dispute because it's truly not possible. And yes, there is activist-minded journalism at places like Mother Jones, the Nation, etc. But on the whole, we still teach and I still believe that even if you have a vested interest in the outcome, you still have to do the shoe leather reporting, get the data, incorporate multiple voices, present what you know, let readers and viewers come to their own conclusions.
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #34 of 280: Ron Sires (rsires) Wed 31 Jan 24 12:20
permalink #34 of 280: Ron Sires (rsires) Wed 31 Jan 24 12:20
How does one draw the line, though, between Mother Jones-style activist journalism and whatever one calls the work of James O'Keefe and Project Veritas? Can that legitimately be called "journalism" and, if not, why not?
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #35 of 280: Paulina Borsook (loris) Wed 31 Jan 24 12:22
permalink #35 of 280: Paulina Borsook (loris) Wed 31 Jan 24 12:22
of course i agree with #33. just saying, i feel the jobtitle has been taken over by folks who dont do the stuff you just listed; and by contrast have heard/read the contempt for 'journalists' as expressed by other ppl because they feel people presenting themselves as 'journalists' have not taken these steps. perhaps a larger discussion possible here about the current debased reputation of journalism...
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #36 of 280: Paulina Borsook (loris) Wed 31 Jan 24 12:23
permalink #36 of 280: Paulina Borsook (loris) Wed 31 Jan 24 12:23
and agree with the issue posed in #34...
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #37 of 280: Frako Loden (frako) Wed 31 Jan 24 13:16
permalink #37 of 280: Frako Loden (frako) Wed 31 Jan 24 13:16
Last night I saw the documentary by Rick Goldsmith that I mentioned in #15, STRIPPED FOR PARTS: AMERICAN JOURNALISM ON THE BRINK. It's an excellent exposé about how Alden Global Capital is buying up functioning regional newspapers and stripping their assets. What was confirmed as well is that it's not just newspapers Alden is devouring--it is also going after trailer home parks and old Greyhound terminals. These places house and service the most marginal members of our communities. The hero of the film is Julie Reynolds, who continues to report on Alden's crimes. Trailer: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knkLfMsME0M> Here's a good source of information by Newsguild: <https://dfmworkers.org/>
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #38 of 280: Mary Mazzocco (mazz) Wed 31 Jan 24 14:39
permalink #38 of 280: Mary Mazzocco (mazz) Wed 31 Jan 24 14:39
I think objectivity was a side effect of having journalism be heavily funded by advertising: Objectivity meant news products could be used to sell toothpaste to both Democrats and Republicans. Now that the mass audience has been fragmented and advertising no longer keeps newsroom lights on, organizations have to target a niche audience. And that niche audience is going to approach the news with a point of view. Were headed back to the 18th century model of a partisan press, I suspect.
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #39 of 280: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Wed 31 Jan 24 14:43
permalink #39 of 280: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Wed 31 Jan 24 14:43
Ron, the term "credible" is the key to answering your question, I believe. "Credible journalism" is why Project Veritas is not journalism, and Mother Jones is. Credible reporting involves using facts, and people's responses to them, to tell a story. The reporter or outlet can back up what the story says with factual information from reliable sources, and does not quote people out of context. It doesn't bury or spin facts to get to a pre-determined conclusion, or set out to promote a "side" of an issue or situation. Although, story choices often by their nature are evaluating situations involving differing opinions and interests surrounding it, and it is very possible that one interest really has a stronger case, factually or ethically, for what it wants than another. Facts can reveal that a specific "side" is taking a problematic stance or doing problematic or unethical things. "Reliable," "relevant," "stronger," "ethical" and "problematic" mean pretty much what the dictionary says they mean based on millennia of human language evolution. (The main meta problem for what defines "objectivity" in news, speaking very generally and in my own opinion, is that these definitions themselves, in English at least, are often rooted in the fundamental inequities of patriarchal and capitalist societies. Yet it's hard to see that because we're swimming in it.)
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #40 of 280: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Wed 31 Jan 24 14:51
permalink #40 of 280: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Wed 31 Jan 24 14:51
(And bigoted. Patriarchal, bigoted and capitalist...)
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #41 of 280: Paulina Borsook (loris) Wed 31 Jan 24 15:06
permalink #41 of 280: Paulina Borsook (loris) Wed 31 Jan 24 15:06
obv i agree with #39 --- prob is the way the term and concept of 'journalism' has been torqued and debased out in the larger world. i often see ppl self-describe as 'influencer/climate activist/journalist' i.e. nice-sounding label to apply to one's self.
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #42 of 280: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Wed 31 Jan 24 15:27
permalink #42 of 280: Emily Gertz (emilyg) Wed 31 Jan 24 15:27
I agree, Mary. The mass audience for mass media has fractured. Yet, the local news audience not a mass audience, it's a community audience of people living in the same geographic area, and the news is being reported by members of that community. But those bonds have not been enough to sustain scores of local newspapers. Here in NYC, there's an outlet called "Epicenter NYC." A news veteran started it in 2020, as a newsletter, to tell community stories and connect people to life-saving services and information. The initial audience was Jackson Heights, a majority-POC Queens neighborhood that had devastating COVID rates of illness and death. Gradually it's become a going concern with a small staff and good reporting of stories barely or not being covered by the NY Times, Post or News. It just got a $250K grant from the Mellon Foundation. I think I know a bit about how Epicenter has been making it work, but I'm looking around for interviews with S. Mitra Kalita, the founder, to see if I can back that up. One obvious thing is related to a point Tiff made above: There is no pretense of being objective. It's in the community and the articles sound that way. It built its initial audience by reporting how to navigate the pandemic, supplying information people needed and could act on in a format easy to use on a mobile phone. John, Paula: What are your programs teaching students about working in local news? How interested are they in working local beats, whether for local or national news outlets, as opposed to national or international?
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #43 of 280: Inkwell Co-Host (jonl) Wed 31 Jan 24 16:26
permalink #43 of 280: Inkwell Co-Host (jonl) Wed 31 Jan 24 16:26
Re. objectivity, all the way back when I was in journalism school, I had the sense that objectivity was presented as an aspiration or intention, understanding that even the most disciplined journalist has a subjective perspective that it's hard to get around. I wonder how objectivity is addressed in journalism courses these days? Are there particular tools or approaches associated with an intention to strive for objectivity?
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #44 of 280: POOR TASTE IN KISS-WRITING (jswatz) Wed 31 Jan 24 17:41
permalink #44 of 280: POOR TASTE IN KISS-WRITING (jswatz) Wed 31 Jan 24 17:41
Our programs are very involved in preparing students to work in local news -- one course in particular has students covering the state legislature for local news outlets. The creator of the course, Kathleen McElroy, does the matchmaking, and many of the students end up working for their hometown news outlets. Kathleen and colleagues running the course edit/grade the stories so that the local outlets get solid work and get to know the students. Several students have gotten jobs at those news organizations after the course ends. That's the best example, but not the only one; UT faculty are deeply invested in seeing our students get into professional journalism. As for the <loris> point about influencers and activists and others claiming to be journalists, the real question is whether the work holds up upon examination. There are people who will believe anything, of course.
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #45 of 280: Paulina Borsook (loris) Wed 31 Jan 24 17:54
permalink #45 of 280: Paulina Borsook (loris) Wed 31 Jan 24 17:54
was just making one of my typical oblique cultural comments --- cant tell you how often, in genre fiction or movies, a female protag is presented as a 'journalist'. this seems to a) give her a 'nice profession' b) gives her cause to act like harriet the spy. these characters dont seem to do journalism as i understand it: i.e. they dont seem to worry about income or where something might be published or deadlines or... observations about both how journalism has become devalued (am sometimes shocked by how people am actually acquainted with are proud of the fact they dont read newspapers or deride journalists; dont understand the value of local news) yet 'journalist' seems to pop up as a valorized fictive livelihood. just an odd paradox, imho. as for whether the work holds up, well...
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #46 of 280: Lisa Greim (lisa) Wed 31 Jan 24 20:02
permalink #46 of 280: Lisa Greim (lisa) Wed 31 Jan 24 20:02
> Guys in cars And women in cars. Our longtime Denver Post carrier would fold chatty notes into the papers, asking people to call her directly if they got missed, because she could respond faster and not get in trouble with the Post. Her route got longer and longer as people dropped the paper and Alden kept jacking up subscription costs. It broke my heart to cancel our seven-day sub but when it rose to $106/month, we just said no more. As usual the decisions of people at the top land with a huge thud on people at the bottom, driving on the wrong side of the road at 4 a.m. She finally hung it up when her car (and phone, and purse) got stolen while she placed a newspaper on someones porch. She sent a note the next day apologizing for missing deliveries because the papers got stolen too. She had to walk the suburban wasteland to find an open business in the middle of the night to call for help.
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #47 of 280: Lisa Greim (lisa) Wed 31 Jan 24 20:06
permalink #47 of 280: Lisa Greim (lisa) Wed 31 Jan 24 20:06
tl;dr a lot of businesses have a last mile problem, but the newspaper industrys last mile problem is really terrible.
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #48 of 280: Tiffany Lee Brown (magdalen) Wed 31 Jan 24 22:15
permalink #48 of 280: Tiffany Lee Brown (magdalen) Wed 31 Jan 24 22:15
> Tiff, do you know how The Nugget is keeping itself afloat? The Nugget newspaper in Sisters, Oregon, was actually bought out by small chain based in Wyoming -- maybe five years ago? the longtime publisher had passed years before, and his wife had become the publisher. our editor in chief, Jim Cornelius, has been at the paper for many years. after the buyout, he was still editor in chief. my impression is that the new publisher/chain affords the Nugget some resources and expertise, camaraderie, etc. at gatherings in Wyoming. i am not under the impression that the new ownership has put any pressure on Jim regarding the Nugget's actual coverage. i can't speak to the paper's entire revenue model and strategy. i can say that it publishes a free weekly newspaper, which enjoys a very engaged readership among locals in "Sisters Country" (a loose area around the town, including the school district, so a small town plus a resort plus countryside, altogether around 10,000 people). Sisters is also home to some high intensity tourism, particularly during the famed rodeo, quilt show, and Sisters Folk Festival (which are spread out throughout the summer). tourists pick up the paper at the coffeehouse, the bookstore, etcetera. coverage is mostly hyper-local. sometimes you'll see an article about something happening in the larger Central Oregon area; usually it's because a writer like me really wanted to cover, say, that outdoor concert down in Summer Lake, and wanted to get in free... or because there is a special services section or article, and an advertiser in a nearby town or city has bought an ad. but those articles typically remain very focused on the subject matter/service. we're not typically covering local politics in nearby towns. The Nugget has a clunky website with ads. website and Facebook will occasionally be used to disseminate breaking news; otherwise i don't think they're much of a focus? i am not sure. special pullout issues are big, and the Nugget publishes a robust Sisters Oregon Visitors Guide with ample ads every year, and lately something called Spirit of Central Oregon, which is distributed throughout the region twice a year. i assume all of these are bringing in revenue! in a lot of ways, it reminds me of urban alt-weeklies i used to write for. free, ad-driven, a lot of insider stuff, pay freelancers badly but the freelancers just love being part of their community and doing their writing so we suck it up, lots of event listings and calendars.
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #49 of 280: John Coate (tex) Thu 1 Feb 24 08:51
permalink #49 of 280: John Coate (tex) Thu 1 Feb 24 08:51
In 2000, the last year I was with the SF Chronicle, the Newspaper Agency (Chronicle/Examiner co-owned distributor) grossed 139 million dollars from classified advertising. An entire floor of the building at 5th and Mission housed the classified call center. Now...nada, pretty much. It was a classic "innovator's dilemma" with huge profits and hundreds of employees and Craigslist clearly about to sink the whole thing, yet the owners and top management were essentially powerless to stop it. Much of that because they could not see a way to do it and much because they didn't get how big the change was going to be. Some of that I think was an insular attitude in the newspaper world. As manager of SF Gate, a big part of my job turned out to be selling to the rest of the paper(s) just how big a tsunami was about to hit them. I don't think I was loud enough about that, but I also think it would not have made any difference. I am 100% certain that Craig Newmark never had any intention of damaging the health of newspapers; it was inevitable. And if it had not been him, it would have been someone else. To his everlasting credit, he uses a lot of the massive profits he earns on underwriting the development of journalism via J schools, esp CUNY. What is sad, is that the other social media bigshots talk the talk and that's about all. For awhile in the 90s, local newspapers were the only remaining profitable kind of paper. A big reason for that was people wanted to see their kid's name in the sports section, or in other local stories. The other big reason was to see what's on sale at the supermarket. Social media ate the first reason, and direct marketing, such as you see with Safeway, took the other. You can still use papers for those functions, but every year fewer people do. As the main 'Net person at the Chronicle and Examiner, I saw it coming and I advised the papers to emulate the NYT in investing in their newsroom, because ultimately it is the only thing a paper can protect, provided it does a good job reporting the news. Didn't get far with that, and much of the resistance back then was in the newsroom itself. Speaking of the NYT, I admire much about them, but I dislike their political reporting and generally ignore it. A couple of things about it bug me. One is what seems like a mismatch between a given story and its headline. I assume, like with most papers, the headlines are written by someone other than the reporter. I think their headline writers show more bias than is often found in the story itself, and it irritates me that the political headline usually contain an editorial component, often satirized like, "The economy is in strong recovery. Here's why that's bad for Biden." Way too much horse race in that stuff for me. And secondly, I tire of the way they subtly and sometimes not-so-subtly try to tell me how to think. That's expected if it's a critic or a columnist. Otherwise, just report. And don't bury the lede either.
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John Schwartz and Paula Span: State of the News 2024
permalink #50 of 280: POOR TASTE IN KISS-WRITING (jswatz) Thu 1 Feb 24 09:02
permalink #50 of 280: POOR TASTE IN KISS-WRITING (jswatz) Thu 1 Feb 24 09:02
"a female protag is presented as a 'journalist'. this seems to a) give her a 'nice profession' b) gives her cause to act like harriet the spy." Reporters in the movies also sleep with their sources. They do a lot of things in fiction that I don't like. I stopped getting home delivery of the NYT and Austin American-Statesman in the Austin area because they just couldn't get the paper to the lawn, day after day. I couldn't pay for something I wasn't getting. The staffers apologized, but made it clear there was nothing they could do to improve delivery.
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